[Deck]MonoRedStax with Scars of Mirrodin

[Leooooh]

Hey

So, with the release of Scars of Mirrodin, I made some changes on my MonoRedStax, cause this new edition has some really good and promissing cards that I wanted to test in this particular build. Here is the list I am testing and below a brief discussion of the new added cards plus some ideas that I came with when updating this list.

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Steel Hellkite
(10)

1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
(8)

4 Sphere of Resistence
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
2 Ratchet Bomb
(22)

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
3 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
(20)


Well, since Scars provided so much artifacts that had an activation cost to do something really good, I am trying to cut the 3xNull Rods that I used to have in my previous builds, so I can test the new Hellkites and Ratchet Bombs and see if they deserve those slots.
I really like the new idea of this deck. Both Hellkites and Ratchet Bombs, can handle a lot of things in the current metagame.

Steel Hellkite: Can be used to do a Karn effect, of killing oposing moxen/mana sources as well as wiping away pesky creatures in the fish matchup. It blocks Trygon all day long, and can kill it as well with his Engineered Explosives ability. The only thing that makes me think about this guy is the instant effect that Dupe/Trisk have. Dupe and Trisk have an imediate effect on the aggro matchup, while this guy needs an attack phase to do something. This single turn that it provides to the opponent might give them the chance they need to destroy it or bounce it and seal the game. On the other hand, it has something that Dupe and Trisk don't have....A fast clock. Dupe if imprinted on a trygon, will be a 2/3 vanilla, while Trisk will be a 1/1 (if used to shoot Trygon) with no evasion. One last thing about this guy...It kills other permanents, and not only creatures. Those last two points made me use him.

Ratchet Bomb: The new Powder Keg. Well it is better then Powder keg because now it hits enchantments and it is an answer for the Oath matchup. When I took out the Null Rods I had to find a card that could do something similar to rod (wrecking mana sources). This card came in the right time. The 2 Ratchet Bombs, plus 2 Hellkites and 4 Smokestacks might be enough to answer a lot of things this deck might need to answer. And another good part of Ratchet Bomb is that it can be welded back and used again. Needless to say, that this card also increases the power of Tangle Wires and Smokestacks by helping you to control the number of permanents of your oponent.

I am contemplating the idea of maybe cutting one Smokestack for another Ratchet Bomb, since it is easier to cast and can destroy almost the same things we are aiming to destroy with smokestack. The only thing this card cannot destroy, are lands. Everything else it is capable of killing.

I tested another great card from Scars of Mirrodin, the Wurmcoil Engine. While this card is amazing with an active welder on the board, it doesn't do so many things against combo decks (Tendrils and GushTendrils variants) and it doesn't solve the Trygon problem that every Stax/MUD list now have to handle. It is only good against Aggro MUD, Fish and it can kill Inkwell Leviathan. Since this version of Stax tends to play a more control game, Hellkite have far more uses than this guy in this kind of build. I think he is best suited in the maindeck of an Aggro MUD/Stax variant, since it has a great clock and amazing abilities.

While this deck packs less lock pieces than MUD decks, Goblin Welder and Bazaar of Baghdad, offers some nice recurring and drawing/filtering resorces that those MUD decks lacks. While Welder recurs destroyed or discarded lock pieces, Bazaar lets you find them or filter them as future Welder targets, compensating this lack of lock pieces.

So, any ideas/sugestions regarding those new cards that Scars of Mirrodin provided? Is Null Rod still good with the release of those new artifacts and this new metagame of Gush and MUD decks on the rise.

I would appreciate some discussion.

Leonardo

[Daenyth]

That looks like a solid list. Have you given something like Lightning Greaves any consideration? It has some nice synergy with Welder and Hellkite, and gives you another card to tap to tangle wire for free. I'm not sure whether it's worth the cost of doing nothing by itself and paying 2+ mana.

[the42up]

That looks like a solid list. Have you given something like Lightning Greaves any consideration? It has some nice synergy with Welder and Hellkite, and gives you another card to tap to tangle wire for free. I'm not sure whether it's worth the cost of doing nothing by itself and paying 2+ mana.

seems like dead weight to me.


As for the list, wouldnt a my battlesphere or 3 make quite a bit more impact than a hellkite when you are running welders?  those things get pretty stupid and fast.

[Leooooh]

As for the list, wouldnt a my battlesphere or 3 make quite a bit more impact than a hellkite when you are running welders?  those things get pretty stupid and fast.

Thats an amazing card to be run in a deck that packs Welders and Bazaars. I might give a shot to it, but I don't think it will work and sometimes will be a dead draw due to its casting cost. Since I am running 4 Spheres of Resistance, this guy will usually cost more than 7. Also it doesn't affect the game as soon as it hits the board, like a Sundering Titan or Triskelion, and it doesn't kill Trygons/Confidants/Welders and other pesky creatures.
By the way, I am testing Triskelions instead of Steel Hellkites, since it answers Jace/Trygon in the spot and doesn't require an attack step to kill things. Right now, the number of Triskelions I am testing is 3. Soon I will post some results as well as an updated list.

[serracollector]

Myr Battlesphere does entirely change the games state:

1.  Its a 2 turn unblocked win.  Thats a fast clock, dragon gives them 4 turns in comparison to find something now.

2.  Its provides permanent advantage for stack/tanglewire.

3.  It provides sac fodder for Welder.

4. It stops jace, if they bounce the Myr, the tokens go in for the kill.

5. It stops all creatures other than the hellkite/Wurmcoil in MUD in their tracks.

That's a lot from 1 card.  What you mean to say is that it doesn't disrupt the opponent, it just makes them lose in 2 turns.

Why not mox opals?  I would try replacing 1 or 2 moxen for 2 opals, I have tried it in my colored MUD builds and it has been a life saver on more than one occasion.

I honestly would try -1 smokestack, -1 Crucible, and test 1 opal, and 1 Myr battlesphere.  Otherwise nice list.

[GNU]

My concern with Myr Battlesphere is much the same as Dragon, in that it requires an attack step to change the game state (apart from Jace bouncing him). I do understand that it provides additional permanents for smokey & wires, but that is really just a bonus in every other matchup than workshop decks.  Its just a big must answer clock, but mono red stacks isn't really about finishing the game quickly. It involves crafting a prison that either the opponent can't get out of or disrupting long enough to kill them. Whilst the Myr is most certainly a fast clock and still smashes face through blockers, I don't feel it does enough. Karn use to fill the quick kill function whilst as a bonus shooting moxes for a much cheaper casting cost. However, I've felt that Lodestone has removed the need for such a card in the deck. As he is cheap, fast and disruption. It allows the deck to change roles, from controlling the game creating a prison to I'm gonna be the aggro beatdown player.

Myr does at least provide you with something if it gets Natured Claimed or Pridemaged, but nothing if you get recalled. And I think thats where comparing the possible alternatives for the role is good. What do you want the card in this slot to achieve? Does th deck have enough threats? Is it fast enough?

Cards like Smokey & Ratchet are hard to love and hate. Whilst they're able to deal with any permanent that is a problem, they at the same time require a number of turns to actually become active and answer said threat. Whether it be sitting a Smokey on 1 and watching it eat your opponents mana sources til they're buried in spheres or charging Ratchet up to 2 to deal with an Oath. Ratchet annoys me more in this regard as what matchups are you hoping to use it in? Most decks will bounce it or destroy it before it can get enough counters on it. Smokey on the other hand is at least eating the opponents precious permanents, making wastelands, spheres and wires more effective.

For the reasons above I really liek Trike, he deals with Trygon, Welder, Bob, Jace, taking out Bridge from Below and shooting fishes stupid dudes.

I would be relucant to remove moxes for mox opal, as you require the quick mana and frequestly the 3rd artifact you play is a lock piece which requires the mana from the mox. Which a Opal wouldn't provide. Not to mention that with 8 red sources in the deck (3 mountain, 3 Barb Ring, Mox & lotus) should be enough given the low number of red cards actually being played and the 3 bazaars to dig into them.

[emidln]

Where is your colorless Ritual?

[Gambit]

I'm pretty sure this deck wants 4 crucible, I've tried less but you REALLY want to see 1. With bazaar you can chuck others and it gives you an actual draw engine instead of card disadvantage filtering. Prison stax is a fine strategy and lodestone filled a huge gap this deck had (finishing the game). But I still think this deck needs to be focused around the synergy that is in this order: Crucible + Smokestack, Crucible + Bazaar, Welder + Bazaar. However, that being said I only run 3 Bazaars in my build. I also run Trike in my build, there are too many creatures with 1 power right now that are really strong against you, DC, lotus cobra, and opposing welders. Trike has an immediate impact on the board, it won't be often that a welded in Trike will lose the game where a Battlesphere would have won it, but I think the opposite may be true. I'm also not sure about ratchet bomb main, with chalices and spheres, moxes should be somewhat shut down.

[znoyes]

Hello,

For the reasons that you like triskellion, I also like Contagion Clasp.
Concider that Clasp has an interaction with Challice, Smokestack, Welder, and Tangle Wire (and Triskellion), and that it can be used to eliminate a number of creatures.
It is definitely worth a look in the sideboard, if not the maindeck, but I would maindeck 2 of them.
Also, concider Wurmcoil Engine. There is no better 6 drop in the stax mirror, as he trumps all of the other stax creatures, including steel Hellkite.
He also has obvious interaction with Smokestack and Goblin Welder. I think that wurmcoil has a place somewhere in workshops builds, because if you have seen him in type 2, you know how powerful the combination of abilities he has for his cost is.

[TheShop]

I have a feeling that my Monored build post-Scars would be exactly the same as it was Pre-scars...there is not a single card in that deck that was upgraded in scars...

On the other hand, the question could be "how does this deck change in a heavy Gush metagame?" for reference:

1 Trinisphere
4 Chalice
3 Null Rod
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible
4 Tangle Wire
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Goblin Welder
2 Duplicant

4 Bazaar
4 Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip
1 Academy
4 Barbarian ring
3 Mountain

5 mox
1 BL
1 Sol
1 MV
1 MC

In a gush/MUD meta, Null rod does not seem nearly as effective as it was in the age of Tezz.  It is quite possible that I would change the list as follows-
-1 mountain
-3 Null rod

+1 Ancient tomb
+3 sphere

Other than attempting to add spheres to beat GAT, I dont anticipate a need to add 6 mana creatures that do not disrupt the opponent as soon as they hit play.  giving the opponent another turn = gameloss.

On Opal- this card has a drawback that makes it unfunctionable...and also is only useful to cast the 4 welders.  I label this unneccesary here.
On Steel Hellkite- I love this card and would consider running it in MUD, but I do not like it here because it does not lock up the game as soon as it comes in play and you do not have room to remove real lockpieces for the clock.
On Battlesphere- this should be win-more if you are really hard-locking them out or swinging with lodestones
On 3 Bazaars- why take out part of the most busted engine in the deck?
On 3 Barb rings/3 mountains- Why remove 1 barbarian ring for an additional mountain?  it is a land with no real drawback that kills lotus cobra..etc
On Contagion clasp-this is the most unneccesary card listed- if you have a smokestack out, its natural ramp will win.  You have welders to refresh wires...The best builds dont run triskelion.....this card is overcosted and does nothing to disrupt alone.  That makes it unplayable.
On Wurmcoil engine- a vanilla beater???  maybe in the sideboard for MUD, but by no means do vanilla beaters make it into the main in a stax deck.  I predict that you will drop this down, and then lose to a combo.  His marginal interaction with smokestack is unneccesary.  Your deck supports smokestack already.
On cutting crucible- really?
On lightning greaves- this breaks the same fundamental rule that clasp does- it doesnt do anything by itself and doesnt disrupt the opponent.  If you play this card in the early game, you the opportunity cost of not playing a lock component and advancing your real strategy for winning.

[GNU]

@ THE SHOP

Could you run me through your thought process and testing regarding your choice of Duplicant??? I use to run Duplicant, but ended up going for Trike in my build due to the high number of Welders in my meta and Dark Confidants/Jace.

EDIT - Was struggling with the rising number of Noble Fish decks, and found that Trike was like card advantage

[TheShop]

@ THE SHOP

Could you run me through your thought process and testing regarding your choice of Duplicant??? I use to run Duplicant, but ended up going for Trike in my build due to the high number of Welders in my meta and Dark Confidants/Jace.

EDIT - Was struggling with the rising number of Noble Fish decks, and found that Trike was like card advantage

Duplicant is probably more effective here.  I know that if I went to tourney today no one here would play shops.  I would expect a field of 60% fish/rg beatz and 40% control/oath.  I have been liking dup to eat the people still playing colossus as a tinker target in my area or oath builds.  Less notably, he is a 2/3 after eating a trygon.

I guess this thought process doesn't actually make a lot of sense, but I feel like my area's only real threats are handleable by dupe.  I can beat most everything else here without a dupe or trike.  My only close matchups are Oath/mud/if someone gets tinker off- vs my locals.  I normally end up removing: akroma, darksteel colossus, karn, sundering Titan.  Past that I would worry about a trygon and not much else as 5/3 lodestone + other locks beat the rest of the field.

Your meta may present a strong argument for trike and it may be a far better choice.  I also worry about negative synergies with Null rod(which nay be falling out of favor itself).

My funniest duplicant removals to date: llanowar elf vs Elves! on turn 1, ball lightning..., and a hatred-pumped dauthi slayer.

[Leooooh]

Heya,

Well, thanks to all the people who commented and discussed some ideas on this thread. They really helped me to see wich route I should take.


After a lot of testing, here are my current decklist:


4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland
4 Barbarian Ring
2 Mountain
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
(21)

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Triskelion
(10)

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
(9)

1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible
4 Sphere of Resistence
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
(20)


So, now let me explain the few changes that I made to it.

Steel Hellkite for Triskelion: While I was playing against Jace/Tezz, Fish and GAT, I discovered that this guy was 50/50. He was huge when I was abble to attack once and eat all their moxen, making my smokestacks, spheres and wires even more effective due to permanent decrease on the oposing side. He also provided a really good clock and had the evasion ability. But when Jace hit the board before this guy, then it became a dead card. They kept bouncing him until they found a counter or a claim to solve the problem, and keep their board intact. On those situations, I always wanted them to be Triskelions. Also, like GNU said  before, for this guy to be effective, you need an attack phase, and I found that this was really difficult to get. Mainly because, when Hellkite hit the board, the oponent always began to search for a answer such as Jace, Claim, Hurkyls and when I passed the turn, they would kill him or bounce it. In the Oath matchup, this guy was good acting as a pseudo Trygon, but making this guy hit the board before that cheap green enchantment was though. That happened very few times, and I was already winning the game. While Triskelion is not good against oath, at least it has an ability to kill the spirit token, ping the oponent and then ping himself, followed by a wasteland on the orchard, to prevent the oath to trigger. It doesn't win you the game, but at least buys time for us to find and resolve a Smokestack. So,  I decided to take out the Hellkites and try 3 Triskelions maindeck, so I could increase my defense against jace, Trygon, Welders, Confidants and other guys. I felt that the deck was abble to handle a Trygon or Jace faster then before, thanks to the ability of Triskelion to shoot other targets as soon as it hits the game. Even my winning rate was increased on the draw. Now I can say, that in this kind of deck, Triskelion is better than Hellkite, only because it doesn't require you an attack step, but because It can shoot the problems as soon as it hits the board.

On the Addition of Myr Battlesphere: At first, I tried 2 Battlesphere maindeck, to see what it could do for this kind of deck. Well, it sucked. All the times I faced a problem and had this guy in hand, I whised it to be a Trskelion, Duplicant, Hellkite or something similar. As you can see, the most problematic creatures this deck has to handle, are Welders, Trygons, Cobras and Dark Confidants. This guy doesn't do nothing to disrupt them, or at least kill those creatures. It only provides a fast clock and chump blockers, that doesn't fly, wich could help the deck fight Trygons. Also, this deck is using Sphere of Resistence, not Thorn of Amethyst, so normally this guy will cost 8+. I didn't even went to a single copy of it, because it doesn't belong in this kind of strategy. Myr Battlesphere is a huge answer for Stax decks, not a card to be played on Stax decks. As a Tinker target, it will increase their permanents, making our Wires and Smokestacks much less effective. Discarded.

4 Bazaars??????: Do you guys, remembered that I was trying this build with 3 Triskelions? Well, after reading the post on the user THE SHOP in this thread, I decided to take out one Triskelion and add the 4th Bazaar to see if it would be good.....And it was. The 4th bazaar not only helped me to filter dead cards, but also found me Triskelion, Welders, helped me to achieve threshold faster (more on this, later) to get my barbarian rings online and also increased the chances of having a Welder+ Bazaar online more often. I am still testing this late change, but for now I can tell you that it is really good. Bazaar creates a huge card filtering, a thing that conventional MUD lists lacks, and if played correctly, will enable you to keep casting threats, while other decks will draw dead.

4 Barbarian Rings/ 2 Mountains: In the begining of the tests, I felt that having a split of 3 Mountains plus 3 Barbarian rings was nice. But when I added the 2 Triskelions to the maindeck, Barbarian Ring+Triskelion, helped me to kill 4+ thoughness creatures (Goyfs), oposing welders, Cobras, Confidants, Meddling Mages, Spirit tokens followed by a wasteland on the orchard, just to name a few. Seeing all those possibilities, and with the inclusion of the 4th Bazaar, I took out the 3rd Mountain and replaced it for the 4th Barbarian Ring. It looked, and still looks the right thing to do with those changes. Also the mana base of this deck is 99% non basic, so taking out a lonely mountain and replacing it for a land that helps you to get rid of oposing problems, seems much better.

3 or 4 Crucibles?: After reading the posts of the users The Shop and Gambit, I decided to try 4 Crucibles and see what would happen. It turned out, that I had a much more stable manabase, fearing less strip effects. That helped a lot against Fish and Mirror matches. It also made the Crucible lock to happen more often, and we all know that this little combo can give us a free win against a lot of decks. The 4th Crucible also increased the power of Bazaar of Baghdad, providing me a way to find more lands and a place to dumb them. Those were the best things that the 4th Crucible provided me, and they weren't bad at all. Now comes the other side of running 4 Crucibles. Crucible is a card that doesn't affect the gamestate after the first copy hits the board. In other words, it doesn't do nothing in multiples. It is equal to Null Rod. We wanna see them as soon as possible in our opening hands, but after casting it, the other ones we draw, we wish they were other cards, since they will become dead draws. While we are playing with Bazaars to filter the dead draws this deck provides, adding more dead draws doesn't seem right. Even GNU (Daniel, the Winner of the Australian Vintage Champ, that ran a similar list, and helped me with some ideas), said that 4 Crucibles were too much for him in his report. I also, don't feel so confortable to play with only 3 Spheres, like The Shop proposed. Spheres do things in multiples, and I don't see any other card that I would like to cut to add a 4th Crucible. Now, if we could find a way to play with 4 Crucibles AND 4 Bazaars, and keep the 4 Spheres, 4 Smokestacks, 4 Challices and 4 Wires, we would have an amazing time. We would be abble to max our filter/draw engine, and have redundant spells, wich is the strengh os Stax/Mud lists.

Does Mox Opal Fits in this Deck?: I ran some tests using this card in the slot of Mana Vault. It wasn't good. Sometimes I had it generating mana on the first turn, wich was nice, and a lot of times I had in the board, wishing it was Mana Vault to help me cast a first turn Smokestack, Golem or Chalice at 2. So I tried another approach, taking out a off color Mox (Pearl), and kept Mana Vault. The same thing happened. Sometimes I was 1 mana short to cast a threat on the first couple of turns, that we all know, it is really important for stax decks. After that, I didn't test any more ideas with this card. A friend suggested to cut Ancient Tomb and add Opal in this slot, but Tomb is helping so much this deck, and rarely I am having troubles to find a red source to cast Welders or activate Barbarian rings. What do you guys think? Personally, the deck doesn't require this card.

Ratchet Bomb: The card didn't performed the way I was expecting. Smokestack is far better in this kind of deck, cause if we combine it with a Wire, we are abble to get rid of even tinker bots, as well as Oath critters. I tested it in the sb, and it also performed poorly against the matches I tought it would be good (Oath, for example).


Right now, I thing the maindeck is really solid. The only change I would make in the maindeck if someone finds a way, is to add the 4th Crucible, while keeping the number of all other lock components.

Now, I think that the next step is to tune our sideboard. I am testing some ideas, and will be posting it as soon as I had it biult.

So, any ideas about the testing results and thoughts?

[Bibendum]

I just worry about so few red sources. I was playing welder in a deck with 9 and i felt i didn't see red enough. I like the build but if there is anyway to fix that maybe change an off color mox for a mopal? 

[GNU]

I just worry about so few red sources. I was playing welder in a deck with 9 and i felt i didn't see red enough. I like the build but if there is anyway to fix that maybe change an off color mox for a mopal? 

as discussed above, Mox Opal really isn't good in this deck

There is a sufficeint number of red sources in this deck totalling 8. Remember that your only running 8 red cards, 4 of which provide mana whilst you wait til they become active when you reach threshold. Not to mention the 3-4 Bazaars to dig into them.

4 Barbarian Rings
2 Mountians
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

I'm pretty rubbish at sideboarding. But this is what my sideboard consists of

4 Greater Gargadon - Great for buying time against Oath and amazing against Noble Fish as they have no way to deal with him
4 Shattering Spree - Obv there for the Shop matchup, but i sometimes mix it up with heretics
2 Relic of Progen - Ichirod
2 Tormods Crypt - Ichirod
3 Ensnaring Bridge - Ichirod, Oath, Noble Fish, goblins,  anything that attacks really

I normally fall down on what to board out....would love to hear yorur approaches

[Bibendum]

I just took down a local event with like 12 or so and I was on mono red shops. My board looked like this:
4 Leyline of the void
2 Shattering spree
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet bomb
3 R.E.B
3 Eon Hub (probably wont use it again but i enjoyed it for oath/stax matchups)


All in all I feel like you have a natural hate for dredge with 5-6 strip effects MD so only running the leylines/needle seemed ok to me. I think if I played it again today knowing what i do now about the matchups i think the board would look something like

4 Leyline
3 Shattering spree
2 Reb
3 Needle
3 Gargadon

[TheShop]

The trike vs hellkite (i would add vs. Duplicant) analysis earlier in this thread is very interesting to me. The tradeoffs are interesting too:

Hellkite:
+1 kills noncreature (and elephant tokens)
-1 attack step

Trike:
+1 Eats cobra, jace, and trygon immediately
-1 not kill other permanents

Dup:
+1 kills all creatures, including big oath ones
-1 not as abusable with welder as trike
-1 not kill other permanents

Man, wouldn't it be nice if they gave us a mythic rare that was 6 mana and had the traits of any combination of two of these.  Having hellkite, trike, dup, and lodestone (paired with a meta where other people's creaures may actually matter) kinda makes me wanna play shop aggro.

[StanleyAugust]

Hi. I've been getting back into Vintage after a few years away, and I've recently been testing various Mono Red Stax lists (aswell as 5 Color and B/R stax) and I've been really pleased with the overall build so far.

However, I do have one question:

Don't you ever miss a way to deal with your opponents artifact mana? I started out playing a list without Null Rod or Gorilla Shaman, but recently I've been including one the two in my builds and overall I've actually been most pleased with Null Rod:

It's obviously great vs Vault/Key.dec and it's a game changer against Metalworker Mud (which usually runs Karn and/or Hellkite also). It also stalls Gush and Storm to a high degree.

Gorilla Shaman is more assymetrical and is also great vs Mud. A resolved Shaman + Welder is game over vs any Mud deck. Shaman is better against Stax than Null Rod is.

My two concerns have been that neither are very good vs Fish (which I usually have a bit of trouble with) and that if playing with Shaman, a Mud deck setting Chalice @ 1, is a major concern as it stops all your outs against it: Shaman, Welder and Shattering Spree (which I currently use in my SB).

For referrence, here are my two lists:

1. Null Rod Stax:

Lands: 21

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Mountain
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine

Artifact Mana: 8

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

Creatures: 10

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Duplicant

Lock Pieces: 21

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
3 Null Rod
1 Trinisphere

2. Gorilla Shaman Stax:

Lands: 20

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Mountain
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine

Artifact Mana: 9

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

Creatures: 12

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Triskelion

Lock Pieces: 19

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere

[Leooooh]

Hi. I've been getting back into Vintage after a few years away, and I've recently been testing various Mono Red Stax lists (aswell as 5 Color and B/R stax) and I've been really pleased with the overall build so far.

However, I do have one question:

Don't you ever miss a way to deal with your opponents artifact mana? I started out playing a list without Null Rod or Gorilla Shaman, but recently I've been including one the two in my builds and overall I've actually been most pleased with Null Rod:

Hey Stanley,

Well, the absence of either Null Rod, Gorilla Shaman and other things are due to metagame changes. Both cards have always been really strong in Vintage, whenever we wanted to stop artifact mana sources. Null Rod was even stronger in the Tezzeret era (when Tezz decks, played maindeck Tezz, with Gifts, FoF and Thirst for Knowledge as the draw engine), since the deck had a lot of problems with a resolved Null Rod. But this kind of deck has evolved to a level, that Null Rod doesn't cripple them so much thanks to the use of Trygon Predators and to the high level of mana sources. Those decks are using 16 or 17 lands, and some builds pack 3+ baisc lands. Also, Gush decks (that are increasing in popularity, and top 8's) don't use the full pack of moxen. All those decks are tending to a more aggro strategy, using Dark Confidants for draw (very cheap to cast, and keep showing you cards with no activation cost), Lotus Cobra for mana (really dangerous against shop decks) and Trygons to get rid of problems.

Also, those kind of decks are using 2+ Jaces the Mind Scultor, wich is a really dangerous card, that needs to be adressed as soon as possible othewise you will be buried in card advantage and will never be abble to recover. Triskelion answers this card as soon as hits the board, while Duplicant doesn't, and using Triskelions with maindeck Null Rods don't seem to be right either.

With those metagame changes, I opted to use Triskelions instead of Duplicants and then cut Null rods from my build, since they are far better and proactive in a deck that doesn't use Null Rods and packs a full set of Goblin Welders. Triskelion not only kill those problems, but also offers a good clock and do broken things when combined with a Goblin Welder.

Before those changes I had a very similar build to your Null Rod Stax. This build had some great matches against Time Vault based decks. Duplicant was the nuts against the emerging Oath decks.....But Oath got hated out with all those Trygons and Nature's Claim that everybody is using.

Right now, for the current metagame, I think that handling those problems are the way to go. Both Dark Confidant and Trygons are really easy to cast on the first turns(even more if they are on the play), and both cards if not handled soon, will bring problems to the Stax player. Null Rod only delays their appearance in the board, and might delay you to find and resolve an asnwer to them. You could try the new card, Ratchet Bomb, if you wanna prevent them of getting to far  with artifact mana. The card is weldable, and not only handle artifact mana, but also other things if you have time.

One last thing....Those MUD decks have great problems with the card Ensnaring Bridge. Most of the builds can not handle the card, so if you can keep and active crucible with a barbarian ring recursion or a Goblin Welder+ Triskelion you can easily got the game. This card combined with Shattering Spree (Spree kills chalice at 1, but you need to replicate it at least once) and Viashino Heretics might be enough to defeat them.

[StanleyAugust]

Hi. I've been getting back into Vintage after a few years away, and I've recently been testing various Mono Red Stax lists (aswell as 5 Color and B/R stax) and I've been really pleased with the overall build so far.

However, I do have one question:

Don't you ever miss a way to deal with your opponents artifact mana? I started out playing a list without Null Rod or Gorilla Shaman, but recently I've been including one the two in my builds and overall I've actually been most pleased with Null Rod:

Hey Stanley,

Well, the absence of either Null Rod, Gorilla Shaman and other things are due to metagame changes. Both cards have always been really strong in Vintage, whenever we wanted to stop artifact mana sources. Null Rod was even stronger in the Tezzeret era (when Tezz decks, played maindeck Tezz, with Gifts, FoF and Thirst for Knowledge as the draw engine), since the deck had a lot of problems with a resolved Null Rod. But this kind of deck has evolved to a level, that Null Rod doesn't cripple them so much thanks to the use of Trygon Predators and to the high level of mana sources. Those decks are using 16 or 17 lands, and some builds pack 3+ baisc lands. Also, Gush decks (that are increasing in popularity, and top 8's) don't use the full pack of moxen. All those decks are tending to a more aggro strategy, using Dark Confidants for draw (very cheap to cast, and keep showing you cards with no activation cost), Lotus Cobra for mana (really dangerous against shop decks) and Trygons to get rid of problems.

Also, those kind of decks are using 2+ Jaces the Mind Scultor, wich is a really dangerous card, that needs to be adressed as soon as possible othewise you will be buried in card advantage and will never be abble to recover. Triskelion answers this card as soon as hits the board, while Duplicant doesn't, and using Triskelions with maindeck Null Rods don't seem to be right either.

With those metagame changes, I opted to use Triskelions instead of Duplicants and then cut Null rods from my build, since they are far better and proactive in a deck that doesn't use Null Rods and packs a full set of Goblin Welders. Triskelion not only kill those problems, but also offers a good clock and do broken things when combined with a Goblin Welder.

Before those changes I had a very similar build to your Null Rod Stax. This build had some great matches against Time Vault based decks. Duplicant was the nuts against the emerging Oath decks.....But Oath got hated out with all those Trygons and Nature's Claim that everybody is using.

Right now, for the current metagame, I think that handling those problems are the way to go. Both Dark Confidant and Trygons are really easy to cast on the first turns(even more if they are on the play), and both cards if not handled soon, will bring problems to the Stax player. Null Rod only delays their appearance in the board, and might delay you to find and resolve an asnwer to them. You could try the new card, Ratchet Bomb, if you wanna prevent them of getting to far  with artifact mana. The card is weldable, and not only handle artifact mana, but also other things if you have time.

One last thing....Those MUD decks have great problems with the card Ensnaring Bridge. Most of the builds can not handle the card, so if you can keep and active crucible with a barbarian ring recursion or a Goblin Welder+ Triskelion you can easily got the game. This card combined with Shattering Spree (Spree kills chalice at 1, but you need to replicate it at least once) and Viashino Heretics might be enough to defeat them.

True, and I see where you are going, but still shutting your opponents Tezz deck off 1/3 of their mana sources seems pretty important. The thing is we don't exactly play a lot of answers once your opponent gets down that Jace, Trygon or Time Vault, or casts their Yawgmoth's Will or Rebuild so preventing them from doing so seems crucial and both Null Rod and Gorilla Shaman are pretty good at doing this.

I do agree though, that Triskelion is probably the best "catch-all-solution" we've got as it handles Jace, Confidant, Cobra, Welder, Trygon, Lodestone etc. which means that Null Rod is not so hot. However, you mention yourself that it's a huge problem if your opponent gets down that Trygon which I completely agree with, but Gorilla Shaman and Null Rod are both a way to stall your opponent and although Shaman can be played around, he makes both Tangle Wire and Smokestack so much better:

A typical Trygon Tezz deck plays what, 35-37 permanents? Gorilla Shaman is a reusable way of getting rid of 11 of those permanents theoretically making Tangle Wire and Smokestack roughly 30% better and putting a lot more pressure on that Trygon-player.

My main issue with Gorilla Shaman/Null Rod is that they are not so hot against Fish decks and actually, I think that this is my worst matchup. Playing against a deck that plays almost as many permanents as us, plays Wasteland, Goyf, Qasali, Trygon, Swords, Nature's Claim and Energy Flux and Kataki post-board just seems really tough to defeat.

Actually, this leads to your final paragraph: the sideboard. I will definately be trying out Ensnaring Bridge. I had already thought of it but didn't actually realize that it's actually better than Null Rod against Mud decks. And also it's obviously good against Fish decks also. However, you mention that Shattering Spree kills Chalice @ 1 if replicated which I'm almost positively sure isn't true.

As a final note it should be mentioned that my metagame mainly consists of Mud, Fish, Blue Vault-Key decks and Gush decks. There's no Dredge decks around which enables me to dedicate more SB slots to other matchups.

I think I'll be trying out a SB like this:

3 Ensnaring Bridge (Fish, Mud, (Dredge))
1 The Tabernacle at Pendral Vale (Fish, (Dredge))
3 Red Elemental Blast (Gush, Blue decks, (Fish))
3 Shattering Spree (Mud, Stax)
2 Maze of Ith (Oath, Fish)
3 Greater Gargadon (Oath)

Any other suggestions? Especially for the Fish matchup...

Take a look at one of the decks I'm facing at a regular basis. Post board it looks something like this:

Mana: 22

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Savannah
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

Creatures: 18

4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Trygon Predator
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kataki, War's Wage

Other: 20

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Null Rod
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Nature's Claim
1 Energy Flux
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

How do you guys deal with a deck like this? They just play so many threads we have to answer while being able to remove our biggest threads. It might just be that I'm a bad pilot against Fish, but I'm having huge trouble against builds like this.

I'd like some tips on playing against it aswell as SB tips.

Do you try to achieve threshold as quickly as possible to get Barbaring Ring online? Go for Chalice @ 2 asap? How about Chalice @ 1? Ramp Smokestack?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Shattering spree does kill chalice @1 if replicated.  Chalice reads "when you play a spell with cmc = to counters on chalice, counter it" so the original shattering spree gets countered.  But, the replicated copies "put a copy of SS on the stack," not "play" them so chalice won't affect any of the copies.  The same is true for storm.  If you cast a tendrils (storm 11) on a chalice @4, you'll have the card countered and 10 copies resolving for 20 damage.

[StanleyAugust]

Shattering spree does kill chalice @1 if replicated.  Chalice reads "when you play a spell with cmc = to counters on chalice, counter it" so the original shattering spree gets countered.  But, the replicated copies "put a copy of SS on the stack," not "play" them so chalice won't affect any of the copies.  The same is true for storm.  If you cast a tendrils (storm 11) on a chalice @4, you'll have the card countered and 10 copies resolving for 20 damage.

Thanks, I actually didn't know that.. That's good news 

[Bibendum]

Mono Red Shops


4 Welder
2 Monkey
4 Lodestone
2 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan

4 Workshop
4 Wasteland
3 Barb Ring
3 Mountain
3 Bazaar
1 Academy
1 Strip Mine

5 Mox
1 Crypt
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere
3 Null Rod
3 Smokestack
2 Crucible
1 Trinisphere


SB

3 Gargadon
2 Shattering Spree
3 Relic
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb / R.E.B depending what i feel on the meta.
2 Pithing Needle


What do i cut from the mainboard? Im sitting on 61 at the moment. Thinking of going down to 1 Monkey since i have 3 Null Rods or moving to 2 Rods with 2 Monkeys, not sure. Some feedback would be great!

[TheShop]

Cutting bazaar, smokestack, or crucible for mix monkey and sundering Titan seems suboptimal...

The maindeck of monored shops shouldn't really change unless we are talking about adding spheres or switching to aggro variants....

[Bibendum]

I cut the Titan for another duplicant and I never ran a full 4 bazaars. I felt like 3 assured that I saw it enough with out causeing me to see it in inopertune moments. I cut a monkey anyway.

[LotusHead]

Shattering spree does kill chalice @1 if replicated.  Chalice reads "when you play a spell with cmc = to counters on chalice, counter it" so the original shattering spree gets countered.  But, the replicated copies "put a copy of SS on the stack," not "play" them so chalice won't affect any of the copies.  The same is true for storm.  If you cast a tendrils (storm 11) on a chalice @4, you'll have the card countered and 10 copies resolving for 20 damage.

Thanks, I actually didn't know that.. That's good news 

Shattering Spree for RRR  gets 3 copies under Trinisphere as well.

[TheShop]

I for one am not scared of shattering spree- who is gonna get 2+ RED mana during their mainphase against this deck?  As far as using it in the deck- 7 red sources are also no conducive to multiples. 

I still like Viashino heretic way better...then rack and ruin

[Bibendum]

I think i agree, I am moving over to the heratic. Rack and Ruin Will be difficult to cast and so will the heratic but atleast heratic stays around and eats away at the life total. But in testing I am seeing that i have double red rarely and half the time double one gets me one since my first copy got chaliced.

[Leooooh]

Hey there!!

Well, after being away for a few weeks due to university exams and a lot of other things, I have some new thoughts that I would like to hear from the other players of this deck.

The first thing that I would like to ask you, is if using Null Rod again would be valid. I began contemplating this idea due to some testings and some new decks that are appering. Let me show you wich ones.

MUD/Aggro MUD: Most of this decks are packing 3-4 Steel Hellkites maindeck, and once this guy is abble to attack, we will loose important cards, such as Welders and Crucibles. Another guy that is seeing more and more play is Metalworker, and if we don't use Null Rod, the only card we could use to get rid of this guy is Tangle Wire or 1st/2nd turn Duplicant/Trisk. Otherwise, normally they put us in a such good clock that few times we will be abble to recover. Using Null Rod against those decks, not only shut the Engineered Explosives ability of Hellkite, but also hits the ability of going nuts with Metalworker. It is also good on shutting off oposing Triskelions, that are a huge menace to Goblin Welder.   


Combo Gush decks: In my testing, I am seeing much more Combo Gush decks than GAT/Grow decks. Most of those Combo Gush decks, packs a full set of artifact mana sources ( 5 Moxen, Sol Ring, Lotus, Petal and Crypt) and some builds also use Sensei's Top and the Time Vault/ Key combo. Normally they use those artifact mana sources to gather the mana they need to Hurkyl or Rebuild in our EOT....So using Nul Rod, might buy us some time, and also stop the Vault/Key combo or the Sensei usage.


Jace/Trygon Control Decks: This archetype of decks will always use the 5 Moxens, Lotus, Crypt, Sol Ring, Sensei and he Vault/Key combo. Always. So using Null Rod, not only shuts their stupid combo, but also prevents (delays) Trygon from reaching the game, as well as Tinker.


So, if we are going to use Null Rod maindeck, we will also need to change our 6 drop of choice. My 6 drop of preference right now is Dupplicant, not only because it is unaffected by Null Rod, but because it can kill Hellkites, Wurmcoils, Big Quirion Driads and Sphinx of the Steel Wind, that is seeing more and more game play. I know that it sucks against a resolved Jace, but Duplicant when combined with an active welder and an artifact on the grave can kill any creature on vintage (Inkwell Leviathan being the exception). Even Oath will have a lot of troubles if you can assemble this "combo", and most Oath builds don't run Inkwell Leviathan as a Tinker target, being Sphinx their robot of choice.

With the addition of Null Rod, I was caught with another question. How many mana sources should I use on total? 25 or more? Right now I am testing 25 mana sources, with 4 bazaar of baghdad to help me filter dead cards shut by either chalice of the void or Null Rod, and to help me find more lands.

The other topic that I would like to hear your sugestions is about using Thorn of Amethyst instead of Sphere of Resistence in this kind of build. I know that we normally use no more than 10 creatures ( 4 Goblin Welder, 4 Lodestone and 2 Duplicant/Triskelion), but Thorn has some really good sinergies that are helping me a lot. For example, if we use Thorn, those first turns plays become available, like, Crypt, Thorn, mountain Welder, or Workshop Thorn, Ruby Welder. Also, when I was using Sphere of Resistence, I had some troubles to cast Triskelion fast enough, so I could answers a resolved Trygon, Jace or Confidant. Trisk was always costing 6+, and sometimes we don't have all those mana on the first coupe of turns, while Thorn won't affect our answer to those cards. Casting Welder was sometimes a problems if I had a resolved Golem with a Sphere on the game, and needed to cast Welder ASAP to recur a Wire or another lock piece.

For reference, here is my current list that I am testing. I am still not sure on the numbers of Null Rods maindeck. I always thought that 3 were the correct number, but right now I am uncertain.


MonoRedStax

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland
4 Barbarian Ring
2 Mountain
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
(21)

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Duplicant
(10)

1 Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
(8)

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of worlds
3 Smokestack
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Null Rod
1 Trini
(21)


So, what do you think about those sugestions???

Thanks