Smokestack

[L_O_L]

I was playing a game against MUD tonight and my opponent contended that he could add the first counter to his Smokestack on his upkeep, then immediately sacrifice a permanent to that counter. This mattered because I had Oath out and he wanted to sacrifice an Orchard token. It naturally felt a bit wrong to me, but I couldn't exactly explain why. Can anyone here tell me why that move is/isn't allowed ?

Thanks !

[Clariax]

Smokestack |Artifact| At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a soot counter on Smokestack. / At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player sacrifices a permanent for each soot counter on Smokestack.

Smokestack has 2 triggered abilities.  One triggers on each player's upkeep, the other only on its controller's upkeep.  Since it is the controller's upkeep, both trigger.  Since he controls both triggers, he chooses what order they go on the stack.  The 'sacrifice' trigger checks the number of soot counters on Smokestack when it resolves.  So if the 'add a counter' trigger resolves first, and adds a counter to Smokestack, then the 'sacrifice' trigger will take that counter into account.  So if the player stacks the triggers properly, he can sacrifice a permanent to his own Smokestack the same turn it gets a counter.

[silvernail]

I'll chime in and note that this is actually the opposite method of stacking the triggers that players normally use specifically because doing so makes smokestack worse for the opponent ( they have to sacrifice more permanents 1 to your none then  2 to your 1 etc) .

That is likely where your confusion comes into play since in this case, the line of play is opposite of what is normally done.

[RisingWater]

Another Smokestacks question,

Im playing Mono-R stacks, I have a welder in play and a smokestack set to 1.
Welder is tapped and its opponents turn, beginning of my turn I untap my stuff, welder included

Beginning of upkeep, I want to weld out the Stacks set to 1, for a new stacks in the graveyard.
Not sack to the stacks, then ramp to 1.

Ideally I would do this at opponents EOT, but if I did it this way, would i still have to sack to the stacks that
I welded out even though its not in play anymore, or because the ability went on the stack it still resolves?

[Daenyth]

Here's what would happen:

Untap,
Upkeep:
  - 2 Smokestack triggers
  - Activate welder swapping stacks
  - Original stack resolves, you sac 1 permanent. You try to put a counter on it, but fail since it's not there any more.
Draw

You will not get a chance to ramp the new stack until your next turn. The better play in this case is to not weld, then weld on his turn so you can sac 0 and ramp to 1 properly.

[Delha]

Another Smokestacks question,

Im playing Mono-R stacks, I have a welder in play and a smokestack set to 1.
Welder is tapped and its opponents turn, beginning of my turn I untap my stuff, welder included

Beginning of upkeep, I want to weld out the Stacks set to 1, for a new stacks in the graveyard.
Not sack to the stacks, then ramp to 1.

Ideally I would do this at opponents EOT, but if I did it this way, would i still have to sack to the stacks that
I welded out even though its not in play anymore, or because the ability went on the stack it still resolves?

Almost everything in your quote above is incorrect. For ease of tracking, we'll call the Smokestack you have in play Old Smoky, and the one in your grave New Smoky. This will hopefully avoid any confusion related to the zone called "The Stack".

When your upkeep starts, before you get priority, all relevant effects trigger. Objects which enter the battlefield after this point will NOT trigger this upkeep. This means that at the first opportunity you get to weld out Old Smoky, the sacrifice trigger is already on the stack, and will resolve even after you weld (the ramp trigger is also on the stack, but will do nothing after you weld). Since New Smoky did not begin the upkeep on the battlefield, the point where it would trigger is already past. This means that New Smoky cannot gain a counter until your next upkeep.

Lastly, you reference welding on the opponent's EOT. If you weld out Old Smoky at this point in time, there is no reason for its trigger to be on the stack. Since it is your opponent's turn, the only sacrifice trigger will have been for them to fulfil. Also, since it is the EOT, that trigger will have resolved much earlier in the turn. By welding it out on their EOT, it will already be in the grave when your upkeep comes around. Neither of its abilities will trigger since it is not on the battlefield. New Smoky will be in play, and both triggers will go off (sacrifice trigger and ramp trigger). Depending on your intended goals, you may want to stack these differently, as discussed in the original question.

[RisingWater]

Makes a little more sense now that I read the oracle version instead of the printed version of Smokestack, I was thinking as per printed version:

"During your upkeep, you may put a soot counter on Smokestack."

Didn't realize it had been changed to a beginning of upkeep effect that you had to stack with the others. I was under the assumption that you could just put a counter any time during your upkeep =D

Thanks for answering the question about the welder though, appreciate it

[Delha]

Makes a little more sense now that I read the oracle version instead of the printed version of Smokestack, I was thinking as per printed version:

"During your upkeep, you may put a soot counter on Smokestack."

Didn't realize it had been changed to a beginning of upkeep effect that you had to stack with the others. I was under the assumption that you could just put a counter any time during your upkeep =D

Thanks for answering the question about the welder though, appreciate it

Glad I could help. Just as a heads up, ALL upkeep triggers are now "beginning of upkeep". I'm fairly certain that they were streamlines specifically so that that the uniformity makes it easier for people to understand/memorize.

[TheShop]

Makes a little more sense now that I read the oracle version instead of the printed version of Smokestack, I was thinking as per printed version:

"During your upkeep, you may put a soot counter on Smokestack."

Didn't realize it had been changed to a beginning of upkeep effect that you had to stack with the others. I was under the assumption that you could just put a counter any time during your upkeep =D

Thanks for answering the question about the welder though, appreciate it

Glad I could help. Just as a heads up, ALL upkeep triggers are now "beginning of upkeep". I'm fairly certain that they were streamlines specifically so that that the uniformity makes it easier for people to understand/memorize.

Except mana vault, which now triggers its damage "if remained tapped during your upkeep" at begin of draw step...Lol scrub

[Delha]

Except mana vault, which now triggers its damage "if remained tapped during your upkeep" at begin of draw step...Lol scrub

Mana Vault doesn't untap during your untap step.

At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay . If you do, untap Mana Vault.

At the beginning of your draw step, if Mana Vault is tapped, it deals 1 damage to you.

: Add to your mana pool.