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Author Topic: Ghost-Still: A New Take On Landstill  (Read 4474 times)
Stormanimagus
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« on: November 04, 2010, 07:13:43 pm »

Hello Vintage Community!

So I've been testing the following list to great success vs. MUD over the past couple weeks on MWS and in testing generally, and the I think I've managed to shore up most truly weak points about the deck. Basically, I have a new philosophy about the metagame. I believe that in a meta full of prison strategies and slower decks that look to climb the unclimbable hill to beat those strategies, a deck like landstill can thrive. Why can it? Well Control is a natural predator of Prison because it answers the lock pieces as they come and then overwhelms with card advantage over the course of the long game. I do not really consider Tezzeret a "Control Deck" in the traditional sense of the word, and thus I think it has difficulties with MUD just like every other deck in the format it seems. You see, THAT'S the problem. MUD has 0 natural predators right now other than perhaps those of the Trygon kind, and EVEN the decks meta'd to beat MUD (Trygon Tezz) are still sort of poor at consistently beating MUD because they are just distorting they're plan A to stop MUD's Plan A while MUD is not doing anything to any of its plans and simply runs effective SB answers like Maze of Ith to trump the effort of the opponent.

So, in summary,

Anti-MUD deck --> Distorts its whole MD and SB to accommodate hate for MUD which inhibits its plan A
MUD --> Sits on its ass and watches the poor hate deck defeat itself with poor overall design.

Even strategies like Lotus Cobra are not fool proof and can STILL LOSE TO MUD!

Why not introduce a natural MUD predator to the mix that also has game against many other match-ups? I think Landstill may have a moment to seize here. I mean, honestly, what other deck can accommodate 23-25 lands (4-5 basics) as well as a free answer to Lodestone Golem that is a land AND 5-9 Strip effects? No other is the answer. Landstill attacks the very resources that MUD tries to Control and does it better than MUD while perhaps sacrificing a bit in the speed department. I honestly think that the only reason Landstill fell off the map was Dredge, but I think I may have found a way to give Landstill pilots decent game there as well. Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you:


GhostStill




Land (24):
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Library Of Alexandria

and  (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
4 Null Rod
2 Crucible Of Worlds

Planeswalkers (2):
2 Jace The Mindsculptor

Enchantments (4):
4 Standstill

Instants (20):
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Bojuka Bog
3 Energy Flux
3 Ingot Chewer
3 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale



Let me explain some of the numbers and card choices. I will be backwards about this and start with the Sideboard:

3 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale — This card is a godsend vs. Dredge because the main reason you could not beat Dredge before was not the lack of black for Leyline, but rather the lack of a clock to beat the slow creature rush that Dredge can execute with precision. Bloodghast is the bane of your existence and Tabernacle gives you an out to hardcast bloodghast as well as hardcast narco/Stinky. Dredge decks are full of creatures, but not mana so you should be able to use this is conjunction with Wasteland to keep the board clear.

4 Leyline — Obviously the best Dredge hate around. I feel it is more safe to play leyline in this deck than most because you have 8 different ways to protect it on turn 1 (4 FoW and 4 Spell Pierce).

2 Bojuka Bog — I really wish this could be 3. This is the last piece of the puzzle to beating Dredge. If you you can't mull into Leyline you must mull into this baby as this + Tabernacle will usually get there. Once Crucible is online Bogs might as well be Leylines as you can now RFG a yard every other turn with an active wasteland on your Bog. I mean, perhaps Bog is too "Cute", but it doesn't break Standstill and I like that.

3 Energy Flux — Energy Flux + Null Rod = usually gg vs. Metalworker MUD and Flux against regular MUD is hard to beat as well. Cards like Hurkyl's are bad for you because you can't follow a Hurkyl's up with Yawg. Win. Therefore, you are left with the most powerful permanent answer to MUD and that IS Flux.

3 Ingot Chewer — This is a necessary evil in the MUD match-up when they start sphering/thorning you out early. It also answers cards that Bolt can't like Crucible or Needle or Smokestack. Ingot Chewer can also be relevant vs. Dredge in the long game at Exiling Bridges.

Maindeck

2 Jace — I feel that 2 is the right number because you have 4 answers to Jace as well. He is a late-game finisher so 2 seems fine.

2 Crucible — Same logic as Jace, more or less. Late game finisher that you may not mind seeing in the early game, but usually don't want to see too early.

4 Null Rod — I was running Gorilla Shaman before and that was huge mistake. There is no card like Rod in the whole game. It stops fast mana. It stops Time Vault/Key. It stops Metalworker. It stops Trike. It stops Steel Hellkite. It stops Painter/Grindstone. It stops Obeyline. It stops Aether Vial. I mean, I can't believe I ever had a list of this deck without 4 Rod. Rod is a bit of a crutch for this deck to vault you to the mid and then end-game and that is why you run 4 and not 3. Without Rod you can just lose to broken hands. It also is a better Drain sink than Gorilla Shaman for sure. Speaking of drain. . .

4 Mana Drain — Some might argue that Drain is dated, but it still wins games. Draining into Jace or Rod or Energy Flux (post SB vs. MUD I did this in a tournament already) can be back breaking for an opponent. Do NOT underestimate the power of this classic.

4 Force Of Will — Umm. . . This is a control player's friend.

4 Spell Pierce — Some might argue that REB is better. They would be wrong. REB is waaaay too narrow for the sort of deck you are. Pierce still hits many important cards and wins counter wars. I would never run less than 3. The only card that I would consider running over Pierce is Stifle and I just can't justify that right now as Stifle doesn't really mow down decks the way it used to when Flash was a deck.

4 Lightning Bolt — That's right. You read that correctly. 4 Bolts Baby! Now this is clearly a meta choice, but I think it will be a long-standing meta choice. There are so many important X/3's or smaller to kill right now, Lodestone being the biggest. Then there's Confidants, Welders, Trygons, Hate-bears, Lotus Cobras, Goblins, Juggs, Metalworkers and more. This card is here to stay for the time being.

3 Mindbreak Trap — Perhaps a bit techy but I've liked it thus far. Admittedly it was more powerful when I ran Shamans over Rods (They hold back their moxen so as not to have them eaten and then go all in for Tinker in one turn and BOOM! Tinker has now been the victim of a trap), but it is still pretty darn powerful. This slot is definitely the most flexible, however, and I'm definitely open to other ideas in this slot. Bear in mind that my blue count is 23 for the MD and I really don't like the idea of going down to 20 (for boarding purposes) so I'm not sure I could justify replacing these with REBs. Perhaps these could be 3 Stifles? This is definitely a slot I'm willing to mess with a bit.

5 Lotus, Moxen, Recall, Walk — The only card out of these 5 that is questionable is Mox Ruby, but I think it is very helpful for early Bolt or early Chewer against Spheres. It also contributes to turn 1 Standstill and faster Jace so I think it's worth running.

2 Ghost Quarter — The namesake of the deck is only a 2 of? Why did I call this deck Ghost-Still then. Welll. . . the deck has 7 Strip effects because of Ghost-Quarter and I'm now convinced that 7 might be our magic number. 7 Strips means you often see one in the opener vs. MUD or Dredge to slow their deck to a grinding halt. Ghost Quarter is a deceptively good card.

1 Library — I think pretty obvious as a card draw engine that doesn't break Standstill. If this was unrestricted oh man. I'd have to design a new deck.

4 Factory — Your win con. Good in multiples. Nuff said.

The rest of your lands — I think pretty self-explanatory. I might need 1 more blue source, but I'm not sure what I'd cut to make room for it as the list seems super tight right now. If anyone can see an option I'd be open to suggestions.

Peace,

-Storm
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 10:49:33 pm by Stormanimagus » Logged

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Tha Gunslinga
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2010, 10:25:52 pm »

1.  How much testing vs MUD have you done?
2.  Who was the pilot?
3.  What build was it?
4.  What were your win percentages pre- and post-board?
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2010, 10:58:02 pm »

1.  How much testing vs MUD have you done?
2.  Who was the pilot?
3.  What build was it?
4.  What were your win percentages pre- and post-board?

Admittedly, not a whole lot yet. I have done a fair amount on MWS (led me back to null rod from shaman) and at one tournament where I lost to Metalworker MUD one time playing the Shamans. Not sure if Null Rod solves all your problems, but you certainly need an answer to Metalworker as the rest of your anti-Shop plan tends to be mana denial and counters.

I don't remember the names of the pilots because it was MWS. I've only played one tournament with the deck thus far and that was with 7 people so that wasn't very indicative (especially since two were my teammates playing a Mono-Red Stax list that no one else plays).

I don't remember the exact lists of Worker MUD I played. Only that they had Workers, Staffs and Steel Hellkites.

I don't keep track of statistics like that, but the post-board games have, overall, been a great deal better as you can bring in super effective hate and they tend to have less to answer you.

Look, I don't have a consistent play-testing group so if I'm going to generate a large enough sample size it'll just have to be on MWS. If you'd like to HELP me generate more of a sample size with good players I'd be more than willing to test against you on MWS. PM sometime and let's set it up Smile. I have faith in my magic theorizing though, and, for now, I'm willing to bet that this deck is:

Good vs. MUD
Good vs. Tezz & Trygon Tezz
Mediocre vs. Storm
Mediocre vs. Gush
Average --> Poor vs. Dredge
Average vs. Fish
Poor vs. Oath
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serracollector
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2010, 11:09:04 pm »

I like the deck.  Interesting start anyways.  My one concern is that a resolved blood moon is almost GG for you.  You still have jace, but he can die quite easily.  Leyline also hurts you a bit.  As does any resolved Tinker bot.  Maybe instead of 3 mindbreak trap, you try 1 and add some bounce like 2 chain of vapor or 2 echoing truth?  Maybe even old school boomerang since it can hit lands?  I don't know, depends on your focus of the game. 
But I would try that, or maybe drop 1 bolt and keep 2 traps?  Up to you, but I think you need some maindeck bounce other than jace.
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2010, 01:55:36 am »

13 non blue producing lands for a deck that wants to get Mana drain online just hurts my eyes. How did you fix this ?
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2010, 01:10:40 pm »

Wow! Who moved this to 'Creative' when it is clearly 'Blue-based Control'? Basically some jerk admin on TMD wants this deck to be considered in the "don't-even-look-at-this-because-it-is-not-a-real-deck" category. LOL.
Full Warning and demotion to Basic User for violation of Rule III, Inflammatory Posting, and Rule VI, Prohibited Action. -DA
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 02:05:38 pm by Demonic Attorney » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2010, 05:05:28 pm »

Maybe I'm just stupid but how is ghost quarter a main deck card? I never understood how 0 for 1ing yourself is appropriate.

Also, bitching and moaning about what forum your post is moved to = lametown
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2010, 08:53:42 pm »

honestly, I just don't see it.  your win conditions are weak and your disruption isn't really jaw dropping.  I feel like you just wanted to cram more stuff (counters + bolt + rod) realized that you ran out of room so you went with Standstill so you could justify cheating on win conditions by turning some of your lands into Factories.... which to a certain extent IS what Landstill decks are... but i don't really see anything making me think that Landstill is better than/against MUD or in general for the meta. 

That said...

Mindbreak Trap
Ghost Quarter
Crucible of Worlds
4 Lightning Bolts

feel kind of questionable.  Trap is pretty narrow IMO.  So is Quarter.  Worlds is slow (especially not even running full acceleration).  4 Bolts is probably excessive by 1-2.

There is also Spell Snare and Rishidian Port, in lieu of Trap/Quarter.  Always been a fan of Port personally.  Spell Snare is narrow in my eyes, but less so then Mind Break.

Also my understanding is that you probably need 3-4 more man-lands.  But I'm not Landstill expert.
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2010, 10:47:43 pm »

honestly, I just don't see it.  your win conditions are weak and your disruption isn't really jaw dropping.  I feel like you just wanted to cram more stuff (counters + bolt + rod) realized that you ran out of room so you went with Standstill so you could justify cheating on win conditions by turning some of your lands into Factories.... which to a certain extent IS what Landstill decks are... but i don't really see anything making me think that Landstill is better than/against MUD or in general for the meta. 

That said...

Mindbreak Trap
Ghost Quarter
Crucible of Worlds
4 Lightning Bolts

feel kind of questionable.  Trap is pretty narrow IMO.  So is Quarter.  Worlds is slow (especially not even running full acceleration).  4 Bolts is probably excessive by 1-2.

There is also Spell Snare and Rishidian Port, in lieu of Trap/Quarter.  Always been a fan of Port personally.  Spell Snare is narrow in my eyes, but less so then Mind Break.

Also my understanding is that you probably need 3-4 more man-lands.  But I'm not Landstill expert.

I think you may be right on Trap and Quarter. As much as I like the deck's namesake at times I think it may not be necessary.

I am trying a build now that has the following changes:

-3 Trap
+3 Chain of Vapor

-2 Ghost Quarter
+1 Volcanic Island
+1 Island
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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2010, 04:16:47 am »

feel kind of questionable.  Trap is pretty narrow IMO.  So is Quarter.  Worlds is slow (especially not even running full acceleration).  4 Bolts is probably excessive by 1-2.
Narrow concept only exist on the mind. "Voltaic Key is a narrow card" but with Time Vault it ends the game. I don't like the 'narrow' approach to evaluate card choices.
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Delha
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2010, 03:50:25 pm »

Narrow concept only exist on the mind. "Voltaic Key is a narrow card" but with Time Vault it ends the game. I don't like the 'narrow' approach to evaluate card choices.
Narrow is simply a description of how many applications a given card is likely to have. Voltaic Key is indeed a narrow card. The only reason it's considered playable today is because its interaction with Vault ridiculous enough to overcome that drawback.

A narrow card is just the same as a high CMC card (which for Vintage, is pretty much anything over {2}). In neither case is a card automatically garbage. It simply represents a problematic aspect that demands a strong enough upside to offset (and thereby justify inclusion).
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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2010, 04:54:42 pm »

Narrow concept only exist on the mind. "Voltaic Key is a narrow card" but with Time Vault it ends the game. I don't like the 'narrow' approach to evaluate card choices.
Narrow is simply a description of how many applications a given card is likely to have. Voltaic Key is indeed a narrow card. The only reason it's considered playable today is because its interaction with Vault ridiculous enough to overcome that drawback.

A narrow card is just the same as a high CMC card (which for Vintage, is pretty much anything over {2}). In neither case is a card automatically garbage. It simply represents a problematic aspect that demands a strong enough upside to offset (and thereby justify inclusion).
Tell me something new please...

Like i said, calling a card narrow is subjective. It is up to the designer to make the cards work. You can't just create some list with 'narrow' cards and then use that list to in an absolute manner. Card Ais narrow, replace it.... card B is narrow too, replace that as well. You won't have many 'non-narrow' cards left and all the lists will look the same with that kind of reasoning. Oh wait, welcome to vintage right?
I can make a card like Death's Shadow work, a card that would be TOO NARROW by your book... What you call narrow, I call a challenge...
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« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2010, 05:16:54 pm »

One observation to note: Ethersworn canonist and standstill are a combo. UW fish standstill any one?
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Delha
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« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2010, 05:36:30 pm »

Like i said, calling a card narrow is subjective. It is up to the designer to make the cards work. You can't just create some list with 'narrow' cards and then use that list to in an absolute manner. Card Ais narrow, replace it.... card B is narrow too, replace that as well. You won't have many 'non-narrow' cards left and all the lists will look the same with that kind of reasoning. Oh wait, welcome to vintage right?
I can make a card like Death's Shadow work, a card that would be TOO NARROW by your book... What you call narrow, I call a challenge...
Your enjoyment of a traditionally negative trait doesn't make the assignment of that trait untrue. Even if somone likes pain, that doesn't mean getting kicked in the balls is a pain-free experience.

Whatever though. Say what you will, I intend to let this derail die from here.
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2010, 08:48:56 pm »

Must every discussion about anything ever devolve into a unjustified exposition about semantics?  Call it an Ace of Clubs, it doesn't make any difference to what the card actually does.

One observation to note: Ethersworn canonist and standstill are a combo. UW fish standstill any one?

I'm sure any UW fish-still deck would bring it on board.  But in my eyes, Noble Fish variants occupy roughly the same space in the meta.  I don't know if Noble is necessarily better, but it certainly is more popular.
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« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2010, 03:10:35 am »

Must every discussion about anything ever devolve into a unjustified exposition about semantics?
It appears you're new to the internet, allow me to be the first to properly welcome you.  :waves:
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zeus-online
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« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2010, 05:26:42 am »

.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 02:43:40 pm by zeus-online » Logged

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