Extract?

[JonnyLaw]

I'm a relatively new player to Type 1, so if this is just an outlandishly noobish question, please forgive me haha

I've been pouring over various decklists and noticed that Extract is hardly played anywhere. I understand that it's sorcery speed is a little hindering, but it's a 1 for 1 trade and you get to scope out their deck just to make sure nothing tricky is coming. In a format where theres a lot of 1-offs it seems like a pretty reasonable choice to include as a singleton. It could snatch Jace if they're only running a single copy, and it can also fish out their Yawgmoth's Will just to make sure they don't have a crazy blowout turn just when you thought you had a good handle on the game.

I understand some decks just plain don't have the single spare slot to run an Extract, but I'm just curious if theres another reason I could be missing. As I said, I'm pretty new to Type 1. Thanks for any opinions that could be offered

[silvernail]

The main reason is because cutting off one card isnt good enough, even at one mana. You could be drawing 3 cards via Ancestral Recall and getting +2 CA instead of no CA, for one example.

[JonnyLaw]

Haha good point. I guess i need to stop thinking like a standard player lol.

[Daenyth]

When I started out, I wondered about it too, but now I understand better. Here's why it's bad:

It's a blue sorcery -- you can't hold up spell pierce turn 1 (or Recall, etc etc.).
It has no effect on the game state and gives negative card advantage.
Most decks run more than one card win conditions.
It eats deck slots in a format that requires precision deckbuilding -- what game state will you ever see where you're happy with this card as a topdeck? We've already established why it's a bad play turn 1, so it's bad early and it's bad late.

So in summary -- it's bad for tempo, it doesn't have any effect that helps you win the game, it loses card advantage, and it takes up very valuable deck space.

That being said, you're right to think the effect is strong -- contrast with Sadistic Sacrament. Sad sac takes three times as many cards -- you can get the vault, tinker target, storm kill all in one swing. It's black and castable with Dark Ritual -- there's not the conflict between it and holding up counter magic, just discard. Being black, you have a much better suite of proactive disruption and the aggressive plays to back up the disruption with a quick win.

Hope this helps

[JonnyLaw]

Ah yes, all very good points haha.

But yea that about answers my questions, thanks for the input

[TopSecret]

The way I understand, in most practical scenarios Extract puts the user down a card because removing one of multiple win conditions from a deck with tutor and draw only forces that deck to find its secondary win condition which will at that point be easier to resolve because the person who cast Extract has one less card in their hand. Unless the opponent really has to find one of a certain card in their deck to beat you, it's not worth it because what matters more is typically the cards that each player currently has in hand and the cards they have in play.

However, if your opponent was only playing one win condition AND had not tutored or drawn into it, then casting Extract would be quite good. But that's a lot of ifs. Another potential use is playing a deck that can race another deck as long as they don't resolve a certain, single card and therefore Extracting it. But most of the time, wouldn't having a Spell Pierce or hell, Meddling Mage be better?

[Tha Gunslinga]

It's 100% useless vs more than 50% of the field.  It does nothing vs Shop decks, nothing vs Fish and other aggro decks, very little vs Dredge, and isn't hugely relevant vs any of the blue control/combo decks such as Oath or Tezzeret.

[rzel]

New Guy Here! This is my first post here at TMD but I have been playing since the late 1990's and I have been reading these forums for a really long time.

That aside, I have been playing Merfolk since the days when Rootwater Thief was considered a good card and I have had multiples of Extract in my sideboard ever since it was printed. If you think about Extract as a card that you are not going to throw out in game 1 but more for game 2/3 then it should change your perspective. Most decks have some kind of sideboard answer to Aggro decks (this case being Merfolk) and Extract is good to remove it and/or figure out what they sided in, thus eliminating the surprise.

Sometimes I side it in just for the "Wasteland" effect, not that it is productive but I have won games by causing some mana screw! When you are using an Aggro deck packed with counterspells it can be a nice little bonus effect.

Just as an example of what I have done to start a game: Mox, Wasteland, Extract. it is a great opening hand to disrupt many of the current decks, if you think of Extract as a way to remove workshops, bazaar, ect.

But for the record, it is not a great card and you do lose tempo if you use it. However, if you run it, have a purpose in mind that can be effective. If you know someone has just one kill method that can outrace you, this is a great way to utilize extract.

[d8dk32]

I played this deck at a recent vintage tournament.

1 Psychogenic Probe
4 Cosi's Trickster
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thada Adel, Acquisitor
1 Rootwater Thief
2 Meddling Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Extract
3 Portent
2 Praetor's Grasp
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
3 Path to Exile
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Underground Sea
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Lotus Petal
SB: 1 Meddling Mage
SB: 3 Steel Sabotage
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Dismember
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Mental Misstep

It was pretty experimental obviously. Over 4 rounds I won exactly 1 game. The Extracts were underwhelming. The Surgical Extractions however, were spectacular. But anyway, the Extracts just weren't good enough. They would snag a Tinker target or an Oath monster, but usually it was just like "U: put a +1/+1 counter on target Cosi's Trickster.

For the record, the deck showed promise. I never lost quickly, and it fought hard. I just couldn't close out games quickly enough, and my opponent could out-CA me and win with more broken stuff even if I got into a superior position. I think extract effects like Praetor's Grasp and Sadistic Sacrement are just better, since they can produce some form of card advantage.

[nataz]

I'd note that jester's cap is played every once in a while in workshop decks for a similar effect.  The real killer is that most decks have more then three win conditions AND have the ability to tutor into them.  This means all you are doing is investing resources into lowering an opponents opportunity to naturally draw into them,  something they probably were not planning on doing anyways.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Nobody but Doomsday is completely reliant on 1-2 cards these days. Even the Tinker decks can beat you down with 2/1s. Consider that Earwig Squad is often uncounterable off Cavern of Souls and in addition to Jester's Cap has a 5/3 for the low price of 2B (and playing a deck full of Goblins).

Jester's Cap was once a viable strategy, but even the combo decks often have 4x Burning Wish + 1-2x Gris now. Workshops are arguably the most vulnerable since losing their Lodestones can force them to rely on manlands, but they're hardly defenseless.

Barring a meta shift that displaces all of the 2/1s, this just isn't viable.

 

[John Jones]

Yeah but the thing is a good doomsday player will never let you win. They have too much permission to let an extract resolve. They are also quicker than you finding 2 extracts to take out their two win conditions.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Yeah but the thing is a good doomsday player will never let you win. They have too much permission to let an extract resolve. They are also quicker than you finding 2 extracts to take out their two win conditions.

Exactly. Extract is a narrow hoser that stopped hosing.

Obviously, Jester's Cap that lets you tear 20 cards out of your opponent's deck for is perfectly playable. Broken even. I think an Earwig that capped 4-5 cards might even be playable. Certainly an Earwig that capped 20 cards would push Goblins into tier 1.

1 card isn't enough and 3 doesn't cut it anymore. The magic number is probably now somewhere between 5 and 10.

[MTGFan]

The problem with these types of cards that target cards in libraries is that, unless they are single handedly stopping the opponent from eventually winning, they are basically garbage. Extract is card disadvantage. If it cantripped it might be worth playing, but as it is, every time you play it you are basically throwing a card away. Familiarize yourself with the concept of card advantage. Extract is NOT a 1-for-1 trade because cards in libraries are not equal to cards that have already been drawn.