R/W Ankh Sligh: New Counter to Format?

[3rdEyeThinker]

After taking a brief hiatus from magic and vintage, I have returned to a format of an unrestricted gush and a dominant workshop meta. I'm not exactly sure why, but Im guessing it's because of lodestone golem. My answer to both gush decks and shop decks is ankh sligh. In the past, from what I've read, ankh sligh had a slight resurgence during the past gush era, but the main difference between then and now is the inclusion of white. So far I've only been conceptualizing the deck, and have yet to test or build it. I figure Ill be better able to explain it by just writing a general build out and going from there:

first of all is the inclusion of ankh of mishra, and possibly zo-zu the marvel hero.
so lets just say for now:
4 ankh
2 zo-zu

ankh effects can seriously damage gush strategies, dealing a good 2-4 damage per turn normally, and even more when gush starts working. Against workshop, ankh works well with other synergies to help race against shops, who have trouble with fast damage (or so Im told)

Next we have the 9 strip package
4 waste
1 strip
4 ghost quarter

This package works as both effective mana denial against the vulnerable shop decks and extra damage dealing via ghost quarter vs other decks.

Thats the standard package, the rest is fairly open to interpretation, and I encourage others to due their own investigations into the build.

From here I'm looking to run 4 null rod to aid in the bout against workshop mana denial as well as against tezzeret and other powered builds; which cause them to play more lands to make up for the lost mana.
4 null rod

Next we have a split decision for which direction we want to take this build. The two defining options are


ethersworn canonist
or
pyrostatic pillar

Canonist becomes a lock spell that helps cap the mana advantage of ghost quarter and possibly path to exile. Using canonist would turn the build into a more disruptive, control build, while pyrostatic pillar would turn the deck into a more damage oriented build. Both are very effective against gush in their own way, with only pyrostatic pillar being mildly useful against shop decks.

After that, I have considered including 3-4 path to exile as a means of non-life gaining removal and ankh damage; though this is pretty risky against tezzeret and combo.
3-4 path to exile

the rest of the build is pretty much open ended to either of the two interpretations.Some other cards that I've thought about include:

price of progress: large amounts of damage to help finish opponent off, though possibly counteractive with 9 strip.

magus of the moon: disrupts shop decks like a mofo, works pretty well against oath too; and pretty much every deck in general. competes with aven mindcensor for 3cc slot

Aven mindcensor: answer to tinker and tutors, as well as fetch denial; yah hes also really good
both of these 3cc guys disrupt the ghost quarter and path to exile ankh synergy so im not sure how to make the balance.

land tax: Ive heard some people say I should try it out, works well after path or strip effect, and is a source of card advtange and super deck thinning. Allows for low land count, but still kinda unnecessary. thoughts?

seal of cleansing: really diverse hate/disruption; you can supply the possibilities.

jotun grunt: good beater and grave refresher for ghost quarter and path effects, but once again; hurts the possibility for mana denial from ghost quarter so once again, not sure about finding the balance

isamaru and lions and knights: gets the damage in pretty nice as they are never countered and can add up; could work nicely against racing stax, but idunno

bolt, chain lighting: id probably run at least 4 bolt, not sure if chain lighting should go in for more of a burn package

thorn of amethyst: possibly decent mana denial which allows fast creatures to race. But kinda jank.

simian spirit guide: auto include

meekstone: answer to tinker and big beaters, while u can go the weenie route; kinda jank and more of a sideboard thing

swords to plowshare: if path is too risky, but works against strategy so probably not

shattering spree/smash to smithereens: good against tezzeret and shop, smash helps burn strategy.

red blast: counterspells of deck, menendian main decked em, so why not.

crucible: runs into waste locks alot quicker than just 5 strip, so sounds cool. also good vs shop

Pillage: possible mana denial follow up and arti hate.

mana tithe: possible counter, but once again, Im not sure if this build will become a strict mana denial build or will allow the opponent to build up a certain degree of mana via ghost quarter and path.

an interesting possible package?:
4 mana tithe
4 pyroblast
4 orims chant

goblin guide: fast beater for burn build, lets us see whats coming, and we'll probably want them to have lands.

lotus/moxen:obvious inclusion

shrapnel blast: sack either ankh, rod, or possibly thorn or artifact lands. Thats one quarter of their freekin life; fun stuffumz.

leonin arbiter: if the mana denial route is effective enough then maybe this to take aven slot and allow for magus in 3cc slot.

tunnel ignus: possiblely gruesome if combined with an aggressive package of path and ghost quarter effects. Are there any other decent cards with ghost quarter effects?

Possible package:
4 ankh
3 zozu the pro wrestler
4 tunnel ignus?
4 pyrostatic pillar
4 shrap blast
4 price of progress

sounds neat...

chimeric mass: possible bomb or weenie, also works with shrap blast

anyway I think thats everything, I just want to clarify some questions like.

Is path to exile too risky?
Are there other playable spells that have path to exile and ghost quarter land effects?

[waffles]

After taking a brief hiatus from magic and vintage, I have returned to a format of an unrestricted gush and a dominant workshop meta. I'm not exactly sure why, but Im guessing it's because of lodestone golem. My answer to both gush decks and shop decks is ankh sligh. In the past, from what I've read, ankh sligh had a slight resurgence during the past gush era, but the main difference between then and now is the inclusion of white. So far I've only been conceptualizing the deck, and have yet to test or build it. I figure Ill be better able to explain it by just writing a general build out and going from there:

first of all is the inclusion of ankh of mishra, and possibly zo-zu the marvel hero.
so lets just say for now:
4 ankh
2 zo-zu

ankh effects can seriously damage gush strategies, dealing a good 2-4 damage per turn normally, and even more when gush starts working. Against workshop, ankh works well with other synergies to help race against shops, who have trouble with fast damage (or so Im told)

Next we have the 9 strip package
4 waste
1 strip
4 ghost quarter

This package works as both effective mana denial against the vulnerable shop decks and extra damage dealing via ghost quarter vs other decks.

Thats the standard package, the rest is fairly open to interpretation, and I encourage others to due their own investigations into the build.

From here I'm looking to run 4 null rod to aid in the bout against workshop mana denial as well as against tezzeret and other powered builds; which cause them to play more lands to make up for the lost mana.
4 null rod

Next we have a split decision for which direction we want to take this build. The two defining options are


ethersworn canonist
or
pyrostatic pillar

Canonist becomes a lock spell that helps cap the mana advantage of ghost quarter and possibly path to exile. Using canonist would turn the build into a more disruptive, control build, while pyrostatic pillar would turn the deck into a more damage oriented build. Both are very effective against gush in their own way, with only pyrostatic pillar being mildly useful against shop decks.

After that, I have considered including 3-4 path to exile as a means of non-life gaining removal and ankh damage; though this is pretty risky against tezzeret and combo.
3-4 path to exile

the rest of the build is pretty much open ended to either of the two interpretations.Some other cards that I've thought about include:

price of progress: large amounts of damage to help finish opponent off, though possibly counteractive with 9 strip.

magus of the moon: disrupts shop decks like a mofo, works pretty well against oath too; and pretty much every deck in general. competes with aven mindcensor for 3cc slot

Aven mindcensor: answer to tinker and tutors, as well as fetch denial; yah hes also really good
both of these 3cc guys disrupt the ghost quarter and path to exile ankh synergy so im not sure how to make the balance.

land tax: Ive heard some people say I should try it out, works well after path or strip effect, and is a source of card advtange and super deck thinning. Allows for low land count, but still kinda unnecessary. thoughts?

seal of cleansing: really diverse hate/disruption; you can supply the possibilities.

jotun grunt: good beater and grave refresher for ghost quarter and path effects, but once again; hurts the possibility for mana denial from ghost quarter so once again, not sure about finding the balance

isamaru and lions and knights: gets the damage in pretty nice as they are never countered and can add up; could work nicely against racing stax, but idunno

bolt, chain lighting: id probably run at least 4 bolt, not sure if chain lighting should go in for more of a burn package

thorn of amethyst: possibly decent mana denial which allows fast creatures to race. But kinda jank.

simian spirit guide: auto include

meekstone: answer to tinker and big beaters, while u can go the weenie route; kinda jank and more of a sideboard thing

swords to plowshare: if path is too risky, but works against strategy so probably not

shattering spree/smash to smithereens: good against tezzeret and shop, smash helps burn strategy.

red blast: counterspells of deck, menendian main decked em, so why not.

crucible: runs into waste locks alot quicker than just 5 strip, so sounds cool. also good vs shop

Pillage: possible mana denial follow up and arti hate.

mana tithe: possible counter, but once again, Im not sure if this build will become a strict mana denial build or will allow the opponent to build up a certain degree of mana via ghost quarter and path.

an interesting possible package?:
4 mana tithe
4 pyroblast
4 orims chant

goblin guide: fast beater for burn build, lets us see whats coming, and we'll probably want them to have lands.

lotus/moxen:obvious inclusion

shrapnel blast: sack either ankh, rod, or possibly thorn or artifact lands. Thats one quarter of their freekin life; fun stuffumz.

leonin arbiter: if the mana denial route is effective enough then maybe this to take aven slot and allow for magus in 3cc slot.

tunnel ignus: possiblely gruesome if combined with an aggressive package of path and ghost quarter effects. Are there any other decent cards with ghost quarter effects?

Possible package:
4 ankh
3 zozu the pro wrestler
4 tunnel ignus?
4 pyrostatic pillar
4 shrap blast
4 price of progress

sounds neat...

chimeric mass: possible bomb or weenie, also works with shrap blast

anyway I think thats everything, I just want to clarify some questions like.

Is path to exile too risky?
Are there other playable spells that have path to exile and ghost quarter land effects?

Well both path and ghost quarter are may effects, so they have a choice if they want to or not. That means they most likely wont if you have both zu zo and the ankh out, if your intention is to kill them that way. However, it is also another way of deterring them from doing it, making it a 1:1 exchange.  Now what is your answer for getting eaten yourself with those to things out in play, i mean a crucible lock is good but you take the damage when you play lands too. Pyrostatic pillar, is anti-synergistic with all the cards listed, since you will end up taking more damage just to get your win con out in play.   Conciderations may be Scroll rack/Land tax and land tax/Seismic Assault is pretty neat too.

[Hillboy]

The trick I think you'll run into is needing to accelerate into your in conditions. Perhaps Ancient Tomb can help. Canonist would be good if you go RW otherwise Pyrostatic Pillar isn't bad. You'll almost want to play like TMWA I think. I think you may want Pyroblast in addition to Red Blast in the main or in the board. I think I'd play Thorn of Amethyst over Pillage. You can try it.

[limitedwhole]

Raze is a card you should consider in every aggressive red based strategy.

[Delha]

Well both path and ghost quarter are may effects, so they have a choice if they want to or not. That means they most likely wont if you have both zu zo and the ankh out, if your intention is to kill them that way. However, it is also another way of deterring them from doing it, making it a 1:1 exchange.  Now what is your answer for getting eaten yourself with those to things out in play, i mean a crucible lock is good but you take the damage when you play lands too. Pyrostatic pillar, is anti-synergistic with all the cards listed, since you will end up taking more damage just to get your win con out in play.   Conciderations may be Scroll rack/Land tax and land tax/Seismic Assault is pretty neat too.

Running 4 extra Strip Mines is good times in my book.  Paying to exile a creature sans drawback strikes me as pretty solid too.

[RecklessEmbermage]

From my experience, mindcensor does not do enough for 3 mana. Ignus is very strong against fetchlands and gush and has some synergy with guide, path and quarter. I would play it main if the meta was mostly fish and blue decks and in the side if the meta was dominated by shops. I'd start with this:

4 plateau
1 plains (basic mountain not needed. You got the bigger waste package)
4 arid mesa (synergy is stronger than dissynergy. I know I'm right on this one)
4 wasteland
4 ghost quarter
1 strip mine

4 goblin guide
4 leonin mindcensor
4 magus of the moon (anti-synergy with 9 strips, but still crazy good)
4 countryside crusher
4 SSG

3 mox diamond (sorry. budget.)
3 crucible of worlds
4 null rod
1 trinisphere

3 path to exile
4 lightning bolt
4 smash to smithereens

SB:
4 tunnel ignus
1 path to exile
5 red blasts
5 pieces of combo hate (whatever is needed in the meta. Consider that 9 strips is a good start for taking on dredge. I'd lean towards pyrostatic pillar).

Oops! What happened to ankh of mishra? To me, it is too much of a sideboard card and worse than ignus. Several of the maindeck cards already punish fetchlands and gush hard, so there is limited space for sideboarding in these matches.

[serracollector]

I was trying something like this but I went totally TMWA, I dont remember the exact decklist, but it was something along the lines of:

4 x Black Vise
4 x Ankh of Mishra's
4 x Tunnel Ignus
4 x Null Rod
4 x Goblin Guide
4 x Bolt
4 x Shrap Blast
4 x SSG
4 x Magus of the Moon
4 x Bloodmoon
4 x Ancient tomb
4 x City of traitors
1 x Lotus
1 x Mox
4 x Great Furnace (iffy with null rod, but turn into mountains with your 8 efx)
6 x Mountain

If I were to add white, I would throw in Rule of Law, the white version of Arcane Lab, thus slowing down combo, slowing down stacks (especially metalworker builds), and making black vise that much deadlier.
Jotun Grunts, and Enlighten Tutor, and Wheel of Fortune are also thoughts at that point.  Not sure about what else from white I would add personally.  Armegedon?  lol

[3rdEyeThinker]

Having looked further into the vintage meta since my hiatus due to university beats, I notice that jace the mindsculpter is really hot now, (???isnt he too slow??? guess not...) as well as that gush hasn't really taken off yet. As a result, I question tunnel ignus, as well as playing path and ghost quarter liberally. Firstly, has anyone tested ignus at all? He seems a bit too narrow against anything that isnt gush, even if everyone plays fetches. Also, I was thinking of going in a more controlling build with ethersworn canonist, but with jace standing as a huge late game threat, (still not sure why hes played, but I guess fateseal is broken in type 2..) Im thinking that ankh sligh should be focused on pure speed, and minor disruption. This would make tunnel ignus much better as another set of turn 2 ankhs, if the goal is to get in a quick 6 damage off an approximate 2 fetches. Mono red seems to be the most competent build. This is what I've thrown together theoretically, as I have yet to return home from university to get access to my cards.

4 ankh
3 ignus
4 null rod
4 simian
4 shrap blast
4 pyroblast
4 goblin guide
4 bolt
3 raze
3 moxen lotus
3 shattering spree
2 zo zu

land
4 ghost quarter
4 waste
1 strip
3 great furnace
6 mountain


SB
2 pithing needle
2 tormod's crypt
2 relic of prog
2 ravenous trap
4 meekstone (aggro and tinker hate that works in sligh)
1 red blast
2 pyrostatic pillar

here, tunnel ignus can work as a beater and gets better when the opponent rushes to assemble key/vault on their turn and has to crack a fetch or two. Also, you can sit on ghost quarters and use them on their turn to force either a strip effect or an ignus burn. But the problem with ignus is that they will just crack the fetches on our turn if hes out. As for the rest of the deck, the basic strategy is to disrupt their mana both artifact and land, while subsequently forcing them to play into your ankhs and zo zu.

Shattering spree would have been mox monkey, but chalice of the void is too big a problem. I have no idea how effect the mana denial strategy on account of zero testing, or if this strategy can effectively race tezz. We scoop to oath, ichorid, and likely storm game 1, but who knows, maybe the main deck can get there g1 vs storm if you drop a rod down and start blasting lands. Meekstone is hot tech vs alot of stuff. Since our creatures are pathetically small, meekstone comes in as an answer to oath, tinker, workshop, goyf-based fish, (I mean...fish), and ichorid, (as it can stop their fattys and act as a relevant shrap blast target replacement for null rod).

 Once again, haven't the slightest idea if this can get there vs tezz or shop. It probably can against shop because of all the maindeck artifact hate and land denial, but i dunno, modern shop builds run much more creatures so trying to race them with weenies and burn may not be great.

As for the sideboard, I run the full set of meekstones as they are versatile in varying quantities for almost every deck out there. Of course, thanks to the genius who despised playing a game of magic and decided to make ichorid, half the sideboard is dedicated to beating it. Needles also come in for tezz and shop, (either welder or mud based), and pillar comes in for gush, combo, and possibly aggro is the deck's strategy proves fast enough in the damage race to warrant it, but probably not. I laugh out loud because my meta has a bit of landstill players in it as well, so lol. The 5th blast is in for obvious reasons, Im not too crazy about including anymore as it doesnt fit too compatibly with its transition to the maindeck against anything against tezzeret.

Some issues I have with the sb and main deck:

1. it's completely untested so....
2. No room for anymore artifact destruction in sb
3. Tinker game 1 is scoopage for us
4. It's a burn deck in type 1...
5. Tunnel ignus aint great aginst fetches in a draw go deck
6. noble fish can probably slap us game 1 thanks to hierarch
7. noble fish probably slaps us with quasali pridemage, since it is meekstone's key weakness and we dont run any other removal than bolt, which usually needs to aid in the damage race.
8. lack of white makes the g1 against tinker dec. fuckin impossible, (or might as well be)

comments? Can such a burn oriented build get there in type 1? anyone do any testing...? Why is jace hot in type 1? Could such a build race tinker?

[limitedwhole]

I'm not sure Goblin Guide is that good in a deck that trying to deny its opponent mana.

Try starting with the following cards.

4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Ethersworn Cannonist
4 Raze
4 Tithe
0 Null Rod
Moxen+ Mox Diamonds
4 Wasteland
Strip Mine

And go from there.

[3rdEyeThinker]

stoneshaker shaman anyone?

[RecklessEmbermage]

stoneshaker shaman anyone?

As a sideboard card against blue decks? The thing is that unless you play very threatening cards on your turn, the blue deck can just tap out and combo long before you get to deal 20. Compare stoneshaker to gaddock teeg: Teeg costs one less, beats for one more and stops key spells, meaning he often must be removed before the opponent can win. Stoneshaker can be removed or played around or played into: depending on what is more comfortable for the opponent.

[3rdEyeThinker]

Is tunne ignus any good for vintage? I mean, all the control player has to do is crack their fetches eot. Do you guys believe that ignus will be able to do 6-9 per game? If he can do 6-9 damage he's probably worth it as an alternative to the clunky zo-zu. Im also looking at lodestone golem as a possibility thats a shrap blast with legs and adds to the mana denial strategy.