U/R Fish!!!

[Bomberman!]

Let's bring back an old favorite...
how about a deck that in the current metagame creates havoc???
a deck that has all the right creature's to answera MOST (not all) of your problems...????
well....here it is!!!   

U/R

4 volcanic island
4 scalding tarn
3 mutavault
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
2 feari conclave
1 flooded strand
2 island

3 gorilla shaman
2 grim lavamencer
4 ninja of the deep hour
3 cursecatcher
3 spellstuter sprite
2 sage of epityr

4 force of will
1 misdirection
3 daze
3 stifle
3 null rod
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 mox sapphire
1 mox ruby
3 standstill

Side
3 gilded drake
2 umezawa's jitte
1 null rod
4 red elemental blast
3 energy flux
2 kira, great glass spinner


so where to begin...?  well let me start off from saying that i'm a 5c stax player and never really considered playing any type of fish decks until a cuople of weeks ago on MWS...fooling around i tried all the FISH deck's possible.. except Noble fish since i really don't like it, don't ask me why... anyway i tried UBW with chalice and aether vial but nothing...then i tried with the null rod's and nothing... then came the time to try WB...but yet it seemed like something was missing.   so i went ahead and tryid a whacky version of U/R fish with 4 magus of the moon main, and saw that while it crushed gush deck when resolved, had serious trouble on the rest of the field...     so i tried google for help!  i searched all the U/R fish decks for advice but noticed that nobody was playing the deck anymore...so i was on my on... untill i noticed a faerie fish deck that intrigued me.

let me explain some of the cards....

why spellstutter sprite? i was sceptic at first... but various testing showed me that it's help me win so many games, it was what fish deck's were missing, a caounter for all the cheap (broken cards) like vamp,ancestral, mystical and so on when you are at the mid game and your opp has enough mana to tap for daze and cursecathcer  ...nice little tech
plus having the mutavault hepls with the faerie count..

Standstill is BACK!   the current meta is slow.. so let's bring back an old favorite.....  Standstill!  but only three this times since i noticed how 4 sometimes was little too much..but now i never  complain.

all the other card's i don't think i have to comment on... usuale stuff.

Now the side!   i had big trouble finding the right side...  and to tell you the truth i still have trouble..if you guys can help me out i would really appreciate it.

Big question..THE GILDED DRAKE'S , the most dif match-up i have is the OATH matchup.  The main reason is that i have no bounce, and i don't really think that some echoing truth is gonna stop oath...so i was trying out sigil of sleep, but in the end i figured that the little drake can handle oath and even the casual mirror fish match up, stilling a goyf or other neat creatures... while the sigil would be harder to cast and keep in the board.     any thought's? i still have not yet used it....

jitte for obvious mirror matche's...

4 red elemental blast in side are priceless.... especially in this deck, i may add a 5(pyroblast).

3 energy flux... for those big bad MUD decks... maybe leave one flux and add 4 ingot chewer?  i don't know... would like some help here also.

my main cocern are the oath match-up's and the Ichorid decks since for those i really don't have a side for... i'm tired of taking up 4-6 cards for a ichorid deck that i may not even go against, so i say what the hell and totally forget that deck! =)

[xerxes]

I really like UR Fish. Mutavault and the sprite is nice tech. I think that your sideboard sucks, you should focus on whats in the meta-game and problem match-ups.

If I was going to make a sideboard right now, many slots would go to shops and dredge.

3 Ingot Chewer
2 Goblin Vandal (and a third in main)
1 Mountain
3 Relic of Pr
2 Ravenous Trap

2 Greater Garadon
1 Reb
1 Chalice of the Void

[Bomberman!]

hi, i totally agree that my side does SUCK!
 
the only thing i would never take out at the moment are the 4 reb and the 2 umezawa's jitte...the rest i can change no prob.

right now i took out the 2 kira's and 1 energy flux for  3 ingot chewer... vandal is good, but i think 3 ingot and 2 energy is sufficent enought...   while your side is aimed against mud and ichorid... what about Oath? it's been rising lately... and the noble fish match up?

[Bomberman!]

forgot to mention ( but obvious) how i run no tutor's... so having ravenous or just 2 gargon is not going to cut it... 

[swawagon]

I like 2-3 SB Annul as it helps against Oath and Stax.

Faerie Conclave is probably just too slow on the mana front where early land drop mana is so crucial. Especially when you are playing Daze I think Islands will often just be a more safe card. I do like the 3 Mutuvaults though; as right now mana, as a manland against Oath, and for Spellstutters (and obviously with Standstill if you go that route). Mishra's Factory can trade with a Lodestone, but the ability to use them with Spellstutters probably still give Mutuvaults the nod.

If you are playing Spellstutters, I think you play all 4. They are one of those cards that is just better in multiples. I'd even try to fit in a Vendillian Clique in as another Faerie, a flyer, disruption, and compared the the creatures in the deck a pretty decent clock. All those flying creatures work great together and with Ninja. And bringing back a Spellstutter via Ninja to recounter something is pretty rad. Also if you are playing Blue and need bounce, it doesn't feel like a fishy card, but Jace Mindsculpter is probably too strong to leave out of your 60. I'd have to see it in action, but I think I'd rather just see Jace than Standstill in many cases.

[Bomberman!]

i have to try annul, since nice..but i also wanted something to handle a played oath in case they win the counter war.

my new sideboard looks like this...
1 null rod
4 reb
2 umezawas
3 gilded drake/annul
3 ingot chewer
2 energy flux
took out the kira's since they are preatty useless...

faerie conclave is slow at times, and i would of agreed with you a couple of weeks ago till i tryid them...and have to say that at the moment, i never had trouble..even helped me win a game...untill i fiind something better i'm just gonna leave them.
   ..yeah mishra is better overall, but using the spellstutters tech i have to use mutavalts.

you would think that playing 4 would be the right move, but in testing i see that the biggest threats cost one mana... and i rearly had to use spellstutter to counter at 2...and even less 3-4.     
 
 On Vendillian Clique... i never liked the card. I don't see any big deal with it, the only reason i would play it is to have a 3/1 flyer.

 i thought about jace allot of times... never tested since i see that fish has a really low mana curve, i prefer to draw three or have people use their counter on standstill. most likely if i ever did cast it i would be already winning, so it would be more of a win more card.

[Hulkwc2]

You should consider Spell Pierce as a cheap counter.

[Bomberman!]

what could i cut for spell pierce? i'm thinking that the spellstutters are taking it's place

[Bomberman!]

so after testing some more, i figured " what the heck!" for oath why bot play 3 spell snare in main! it takes out aoth,tarmo,confidant, and so on...   

so i took out..  3 standstill and 2 faerie conclave for +sage +3spell snare +black.
my side also changed, and now consist of 4 relic,4reb,2 jitte,3 ingot, and 2 flux...so far so good!

[[supa_t(im)]]

I haven't posted on the Drain in forever, but since UR Fish is back, I might as well.

This is what I had constructed before I left for Legacy:

4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
4 Scalding Tarn (this was a mix of deltas and strands back then)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Mishra's Factory

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Gorilla Shaman
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Voidmage Prodigy

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
3 Annul
3 Stifle
3 Fire/Ice
3 Null Rod
1 Rushing River

Which is actually pretty close to what you have now.

I stopped liking Daze when people started running more basics and spiketail hatchling started to suck. I found MD annul awesome, as it hits Oath, Stacks pieces, SoLoMoxen, and random things like Animate Dead for Dragon. Since Oath is arguably the worst matchup, it really made sense to me to have some MD protection against it and things like annul (which splashed over to things like Stacks) fit the bill. People have fallen in love with Daze again it seems, but the deck may have room for both.

Grim Lavamancer is soooo good in the mirror (and Control Slaver still existed back then) that I wanted 4, no matter what. I would still want 4 today since they can push through that last bit of damage.

I could definitely see going down to 3 mox monkey (so good at fighting tinker) and dropping the 2 voidmages for 3 spellstutters. And since you say you usually counter 1cc spells, why do we need mutavaults? Factories just seem better.

Waterfront Bouncer was also really good against Oath and DSC back then, but I think things have changed a bit. I had a lot of Oath in my meta, so my list may be slightly skewed toward that. Something to think about at least.

I liked Brainstorm much better than standstill back then, but it's restricted now so I'm not sure what I'd run in its spot.

Fire/Ice was for the mirror, to tap Oath's creatures, and to push the last bit of damage through. Not sure how good it is in today's meta. It would still be good in the mirror, but something like Daze, Spell Pierce, or Spell Snare may be better.

I LOVE this deck, I'm so happy it is being worked on again.

[Bomberman!]

in recent testing matches i see that gorilla shaman is amazing! 3 is the perfect number since it really just hits the moxes and sometimes things like aether vial or sol ring-voltaic key's, not to mention we play the null rod, so when you play a null gorilla just stands there as a 1/1 creature...  that's why i love ninja! no creature is dead! =P

yes, back then 4 grim lava was the right number to play since there were allot of creatures that if not dealt with it would spell game over (like goblin welder). But in todays meta, the only creature that grim hit's is confidant...trygon is a 2/3, i rarely see goblin welder being played, same goes for lotus cobra...plus tarmo is usually really big-same for lodestone golem.   So my perfect number is 2. Same reason i took out the main Fire-ice.

Love daze, it's amazing, i used to play 4, but then realized that it was just a bit too much... so i tried 3, and loving it since! in todays meta i see that players have to push their spells in order to organize their game, where back then they had 4 brain that could be used when wanted or thirst...but now, you have to play preordian, confidant, jace, as soon as possible since they are played at sorcery speed.

i remember back then playing the bouncer...great card, but as of right now i prefer the 3 main deck spell snare.  i only like bouncer against the oath match up.

as far as the whole brain standstill drawing is thing... i've decided to go the more meandeck way of things... and removed both for some solid counter magic...

[[supa_t(im)]]

I still really like lavamancer. He hits confidant, pridemage, hexmage, meddling mage (lots of mages), hierarch, mindscensor, and arbiter. Even with goyf he makes the mirror better. I also had him in because having a bunch of 1cc critters helped ninja come out turn 2 a lot better. But you are right, 4 is the wrong number. I'd like to run 3 since you want to see one most games.

Waterfront bouncer becomes cursecatcher then.

So, it looks like we've (I've?) got:

23 Mana
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
4 Mishra's Factory

16 Beats
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Cursecatcher

21 Spells
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
3 Annul/Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Null Rod

But we need work on the sideboard no? I'm thinking something like:

1 null rod
4 reb
3 umezawas jitte
3 annul/spell pierce
4 Energy Flux/Rack and Ruin/Vaishino Heretic

Which isn't so much different than your suggested one. Do we need more protection against Storm Combo (arcane lab or chalice)? Should we run any bounce in the SB? Do you think this is enough Oath hate (snare, annul, pierce)? Is Ingot chewer superior to flux, RnR, and heretic? Do we even need that much Stacks protection?

The deck still feels really metagamable, lots of interchangeable MD spots if necessary. One of the reasons why I originally liked the deck.

[Bomberman!]

as far as the mutavault tech goes, sure mishra is stronger, and the most frequent things i counter cost one, but you never know when that mutavault will come in handy to counter that gamebreaking card  

So far, no combo problems...storm decks play with little lands so that's when all the daze(s) cursecatcher,stifle,null come in handy...  the main focus is to hit their mana and counter only the bombs.

The toughest part for this deck was creating a good solid SIDE! and as of right now i think i have done that part correctly.  why?
my main concern was the noble fish-Oath-Ichorid matches...   on my first side i had no ichorid side cause i had to add all the noble fish-oath hate since they are played far more than ichorid. That was not a correct thing to do, since i a good deck has to be prepare for everydeck.................... ......sooooo, i went back and took out the standtills to add main deck protections that would also help outside of those matche's (beside's the ichorid one)   ...THE 3 SPELL SNARE!  with those i could counter all the pesky cards that otherwise would really hurt like oath,tarmo,sphere... and bla bla bla..   adding that to main helped me remove cards so i could add the 4 relics (against ichorid, i think at least 4 cards have to be obbliggatory to have a chance).

Why bounce? that is why i play 4 reb in side... takes care of trygon and jace. Lodestone is a 5/3 body (but we have flux and ingot to take care of that) and the rest of the creature's can be taken care of with lavamancer or jitte. the only thing that we cannot stop is a sphy or inkwell...but when that happens, i just say oh well and play next game.  can't always win..  having 2 bounce spells with a weak draw engine and no tutor's is kind of pointless no?

heck yeah!  spell snare should be enough.. why not take out the 3 spell pierce and ad the 4 spell snare and 2 more creature's? maybe waterfront bouncer if so concerned

everything is going smoothly with the 3 ingot 2 flux strategy plan.  rack and ruin cost 3, and a fish player does not play the 5 moxes plus other eccellarations..and having a sphere in play is tough to cast.  i prefer the flux where if i do cast it, and put pressure it can be a gg for opponent, where maybe a resolved RnR gives you only momentary advantage ( untill he throws down another bomb)

[Bone]

Is there a reason why alot of you don't use Mox Ruby? I guess it would be nice with t1 shaman, lavamancer, open red for blast or bolt and still have 1 blue open for stifle, spell pierce/snare etc...

Sendt fra min HTC

[Bomberman!]

i agree with you that it can give you a great advantage!  i always played with both moxe's... just now did i add Black lotus since at first thought, thought it was not all that needed... but again, in recent testing the first tunr black really helps out. Only in the late game it becomes one of those dead draws.

[Bone]

Bounce:

I like the list that got 3rd in the most recent list on morphine.de. it runs 2 echoing truth. What kind of bounce do you prefer?  Why is not anybody running Wipe away? Split second seems nice against tinkertargets...

Sendt fra min HTC

[xouman]

Bounce:

I like the list that got 3rd in the most recent list on morphine.de. it runs 2 echoing truth. What kind of bounce do you prefer?  Why is not anybody running Wipe away? Split second seems nice against tinkertargets...

Sendt fra min HTC

Wipe away feels too narrow. I play 2 rebuild (tinker, mud) + 1 echoing (etw, sphinx)  maindeck, plus 2 hurkyl's in the sideboard. You should play more counters than control, so having split second isn't as important as versatility imho. Besides, lots of tinker-robot players play inkwell over sphinx.

[Bomberman!]

Bounce:

I like the list that got 3rd in the most recent list on morphine.de. it runs 2 echoing truth. What kind of bounce do you prefer?  Why is not anybody running Wipe away? Split second seems nice against tinkertargets...

Sendt fra min HTC

If i could i would fit all the cards in the world to have an asnwear to all sort of problems...but the fact with fish is...we don't have any tutors or a solid draw engine to take up1-2 card spaces just to add BOUNCE for a random card.  Add a 1-2 copy of SHinobi if you are worried about big creatures.  The way i play My Fish is to eat their board so they don't even have a chance to get a robot in play, that is why i play null rod,gorilla,waste,daze, to eat up thier time.   playing for the past month's with this version i never had a problem since if they did cast tinker i would be already in a bad spot which ment i would of lost anyways or id let them play since i would win.     

[i_set_fire]

This is the list I used at Xtreme yesterday for a first place split:
1st place (split)
Travis Heipp
Fire Fish


1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Cursecatcher
3 Gorilla Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Annul
1 Black Lotus
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Null Rod
2 Spell Snare
3 Standstill
1 Stifle
1 Time Walk
-----
4 Energy Flux
1 Null Rod
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Pierce
2 Umezawa's Jitte

The deck worked very well and was the most fun deck I have played in awhile.  All the jank caught people off guard which usually worked out well for me.  Lavamancer, Standstill, and Jitte were the big winners.  I used mutavault instead of Mishra's Factory so that I could pump Spellstutter Sprite, but this never happened.
Stifle sat in my hand a lot so I would probably cut that for a MD Jitte.  
I would also change the board to:
4 Energy Flux
4 REB
4 Relic
1 Null
2 Jitte

I wish I could write a longer report, but I did not take notes and do not remember enough to make a decent report.  

[xouman]

Awesome result

Did you face any MUD? Any noble fish? Wasn't annul dead against most pairings? Is lavamancer still useful after relic? Do you side in relic only against ichorid (because of main deck null rod)? I have more questions but these are the firsts that came to my mind :p

I have had some success with spellstutter + mutavault. I even play 1 riptide laboratory to take profit of recursive spellstutters in the mid-late game.

[i_set_fire]

Awesome result

Thanks!

Did you face any MUD? Any noble fish? Wasn't annul dead against most pairings? Is lavamancer still useful after relic? Do you side in relic only against ichorid (because of main deck null rod)? I have more questions but these are the firsts that came to my mind :p

The only MUD I faced was Ben Carp for top 4.  I went 2-1.  First game I won by countering turn 1 and 2 karn and lodestone and getting in there with muta beats while null rod shut off his mana to activate his factory.  this is why I run Annuls.  Game 2 MUD was MUD with turn 1 trinisphere and I don't think I played a single spell.  Game 3 was fun.  He had the chance to sack his lotus to pay the 1 for daze but instead let his (I think) smokestack get countered.  Next turn, I drop shaman and nuke the lotus anyway.  couple turns later, all his mana was tied up paying for my  energy flux.  Pretty sure lavamancer and mutavault got there with the help of a ninja. 

Did not see any noble fish.

Annul was rarely dead.  Much better than stifle.  Aside from MUD, you still have Oath, Painter, Vault/key, and a bunch of other stuff to counter.  I boarded them out once when I played mono-red and put in the jittes.

Relic was there only for Dredge.  Fortunately I did not see any Dredge as it was the match I feared second most (Ben was most feared).  But yah, the plan was rod out, relic in.

[Bone]

Regards

Have there been any changes in your deck the last month?

And did you ever wanted the Annuls to be Spell Pierces instead? It just seems better, equally good in the first turns but can also counter tinker, yawgwin and stuff...

Edit: Mishra's or Muta? Mishra's can get bigger when blocking and bigger when 2, Muta can enable countering 2cc stuff.

[xouman]

I tried annuls in last tournament (although I play Ugr), with very little success because they didn't show when needed. First game I played against Survival (in vintage!!), but despite playing 3 spell snare and 3 annul maindeck, my opponent managed to play T2 survival (countered), t3 survival in first match, and T2 survival (countered), t3 survival (claimed), t4 survival and I lost.


Then I faced a noble fish, where annuls were little useful, and only managed to feed them to fow.


Next a slaver with welders. I could attack his manabase countering a mox, but at last he played will for the win. I couldn't see any annul in the second.


Then a merfolk deck (I was 0-3 already), annul was not really funny there XD

Last game was against a black deck without dark depths. Annul was only useful against chalice.


So? No tier 1 decks, no tezz, no gush, no Mud, only 1 full powered opponent, and welder helped him to recover its nasty slaver :p


Mishra of muta? With faeries I choose Muta by FAR. Also I include riptide laboratory in order to help in long games, bouncing spellstutters to recur them, and save sages and cursechatchers to chumpblock infinite turns.

[i_set_fire]

Regards

Have there been any changes in your deck the last month?

And did you ever wanted the Annuls to be Spell Pierces instead? It just seems better, equally good in the first turns but can also counter tinker, yawgwin and stuff...

Edit: Mishra's or Muta? Mishra's can get bigger when blocking and bigger when 2, Muta can enable countering 2cc stuff.

I took out stifle and put in a jitte.  Otherwise it still seems to be testing well how it is.  Unfortunately, I was not able to make it to Xtreme this past week due to family obligations so I did not tourny test it.  I really want to MD another jitte because I win 90% of the games I successfully attach it and attack.

The three times I wished my annuls were spell pierces are outweighed by the 50 times I was glad they were annuls and not spell pierces.  I think annuls are much better early game.  This is why: MUD.  Lodestone, Karn, Hellkite, all countered with one mana while the spell pierce sits in your hand waiting to get pitched to Force. 
If they are casting yawgwin, they probably have an extra two to pay for spell pierce, otherwise, you still have force, spellstutter, and cursecatcher to deal with yawgwin and tinker.  If those don't work then you have games two and three with 4 REBs (for tinker at least)

Mishra and Muta seem to be a horse a piece.  They both have their advantages and disadvantages, but in the end, I think either will get you there. 

[Bone]

Thanks for inspiration and decklist.  I will play this in a powere  tournament but I only have the moxen. Have -1 stifle, +1 jitte already, should I go -1 walk, +1 more jitte? Or a fire / ice? I just like the card, fire fish. What do you think?

Also do -1 recall, +1 sage of editor. Sounds okay?
And -1 b.lotus, +1 petal. Okay? Seems weak...

[swawagon]

I was really pleased with Standstill, not thinking it would be as good as it was. I just put a little different spin on the provided list.

-2 Spell Snare
-2 Daze
-1 Stifle

+3 Spell Pierce
+1 Vendillian Clique
+1 Simian Spirit Guide

Simian Spirit Guide was really strong for that early push of mana (early 2 drops), not affected by my own Null Rod, and while under MUD Spheres. A beater later.
Vendillian Clique for disruption, a decent clock, flying, and is a Faerie.
I've had Daze stuck useless in my hand too many times. Spell Piece often just seems more useful. A horse a piece I guess.

SB
4 REB
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Ingot Chewer
3 Sower of Temptation (in most matchups these come in (fish, WRG aggro, noble) don't bother using Wasteland to kill land, use them for mana)

[i_set_fire]

Bone:
I would add an extra standstill in place of the Ancestral.  You will be slower without power and the standstill will slow them down, too.  otherwise maybe put the 4th Null Rod in.

Swawagon:
Early posts in this thread said to cut standstill, but that is way wrong.  Standstill is amazing.  The synergy with muta and the ninjas is fantastic, too.  I can see why you would cut the Dazes.  Since people seem to really want Spell Pierce in the deck, I would say cut the Dazes before cutting Annul.
Clique seems like a good idea.  I thought about it but never tried it.  I tried Spirit Guide and was unimpressed.
I had Sowers in my original SB and switched them for the jittes.  Don't know how much you have played this deck, but try them both and you will see jitte is better.  Most creatures in T1 are 2 toughness or less and jitte kills them.  Sower is best for Oath dudes, but with Spell Snare and Annul, you don't have to worry about Oath dudes

[xouman]

Daze is very good in decks that tap each turn, but in a deck that plays so many instants and cards like ninja that cannot be countered, it is not so important. I played Steel sabotage last saturday and was quite happy with it, even I didn't face any BSC.

Jitte is quite dead until game is controlled. Like tarmo in noble fish, it helps to kill the opponent quickly and it's great against fish, but it's not great in early turns and when you are losing it's a pretty bad draw.

BTW, have you tried Gilded Drake in the sideboard (maybe coupled with waterfront bouncer)? Sower may be too late against BSC or oath.

[Bone]

Considering we (at least the list I'm playing) have 3 Mox Monkey and 3 Annul maindeck I think 4 Energy Flux is enough artifact hate in the sideboard. The chance of getting one by turn 3 is 48,8% (52,8% on the draw) and it just wrecks Stax/Mud. If you run 4 Mishra's Factory (I'm considering playing these instead of Mutavault) you have a way to handle Lodestone Golem until you get a Flux in play.

[swawagon]

Energy flux on the table no doubt wrecks Stax, but 3 mana with only 2 moxen can be a steep climb against Stax and their many Sphere affects.

Ingot Chewer however kills whatever Artifact is ailing you for only R. Then URFish can keep operating as it should. And it can be a useful creature. And it is not too bad against Dredge either removing their Bridge From Belows when you Evoke it.

My URFish boarding for Stax might be -1 Null Rod, -3 Sprite, +4 Ingot Chewer.