The MUD Primer

[Prospero]

Bridge is another fine, and perfectly reasonable card, but it still doesn't remove the threat. 

[BruiZar]

I still wonder how some of you justify a 6 mana answer against a 3 mana answer. Just because you play a Workshop deck doesn't mean you can put ridiculously expensive cards in it. BSC gives you a 1 turn window to act. If your opponent goes Island, manacrypt, tinker, you will not have 6 mana but you will have 3 mana available to respond. Also, Duplicant is only good at removing creatures. Sculpting Steel can at least double as something else. (unlike a 2/4 for 6 mana). The only time I can see it being better is when you play against Oath of Druids because you don't want him to shuffle his win conditions back, but that is going to be playing Dragon Breath so you can't even cast it before you're already dead. Workshop has no real draw engine and BSC gives you 1 turn to act. Do you really want to gamble your game for a 6 mana Swords to Plowshares when you could just pay half that price?

[Marske]

@BruiZar,
You did notice:

Sculpting Steel
|Artifact|
You may have Sculpting Steel enter the battlefield as a copy of any artifact on the battlefield.

VS

Duplicant
|Artifact Creature -- Shapeshifter|
2/4. Imprint -- When Duplicant enters the battlefield, you may exile target nontoken creature. / As long as the exiled card is a creature card, Duplicant has that card's power, toughness, and creature types. It's still a Shapeshifter.

Sculpting Steal might bye you a turn or 2 in hopes of finding something to really answer it but a single Chain of Vapor and you're toast. Duplicant costs 6 mana, true, but it removes BSC from the equation entirely. It also deals with a card called Trygon Predator (which Sculpting Steel can't unless you turn the predator into an artifact) and a host of other creatures Sculpting steel can't.

Now your argument regarding 3 vs 6 mana answers is correct, but Sculpting steel doesn't really "do" anything unless you already have "something". It's a horrible topdeck when you're looking to actually play something and you got to run 3-4 for it to be effective the way you describe.

Playing Duplicant as a 2/4 shapeshifter imprinting nothing is a valid way to end the game depending on deck type (not so much in aggro, it's possible in prison strategies) That being said, Steel doesn't really "answer" BSC it just byes you hopefully more then a single turn. Now, don't get me wrong, Sculpting Steel is a tremendously awesome card and it is underplayed. But the best answer to BSC is simply not letting Tinker resolve.

[BruiZar]

Sculpting Steal might bye you a turn or 2 in hopes of finding something to really answer it but a single Chain of Vapor and you're toast. Duplicant costs 6 mana, true, but it removes BSC from the equation entirely.

This is simply not true!

Marske plays a Tinker for Blightsteel Colossus
I play a Sculpting Steel on Blightsteel Colosus

Now MARSKE has 1 turn to answer my Sculpting Steel, or he either DIES right there, OR has to block, giving his Blightsteel Colossus 11 -1/-1 Counters effectively removing his tinker bot. He can't attack me, because I will block and both will die. In fact (No pun intended), if I manage to drop a Tangle Wire to tap his BSC down for 1 turn, I steal the game.

Sculpting Steel DOESN'T buy me a turn, it eliminates the threat of Blightsteel Colossus at half the price of Duplicant UNLESS my opponent can get any bounce before my summoning sickness wears off.

If you don't see what I mean, please just play this scenario out to see for yourself.

[BruiZar]

Now your argument regarding 3 vs 6 mana answers is correct, but Sculpting steel doesn't really "do" anything unless you already have "something". It's a horrible topdeck when you're looking to actually play something and you got to run 3-4 for it to be effective the way you describe.

PS: If you play a deck with 57 other permanents and you have nothing in your deck worth copying, you should think of building a different deck.

[Marske]

Sculpting Steal might bye you a turn or 2 in hopes of finding something to really answer it but a single Chain of Vapor and you're toast. Duplicant costs 6 mana, true, but it removes BSC from the equation entirely.

This is simply not true!

Marske plays a Tinker for Blightsteel Colossus
I play a Sculpting Steel on Blightsteel Colosus

Now MARSKE has 1 turn to answer my Sculpting Steel, or he either DIES right there, OR has to block, giving his Blightsteel Colossus 11 -1/-1 Counters effectively removing his tinker bot. He can't attack me, because I will block and both will die. In fact (No pun intended), if I manage to drop a Tangle Wire to tap his BSC down for 1 turn, I steal the game.

I have a more then 1 turn to answer your colossus as you can't attack me either. I don't die if you attack, I simply trade bots, shuffle mine into my deck and you lose a sculpting steel. Dropping a tangle becomes a "how many permanents get tapped" question. My biggest problem with this scenario, is that you're actually trying your best to not lose instead of trying your best to actually win. If you dupe BSC, you have a 11/11, your opponent has 0 creatures, that's a 2 turn clock right there. This isn't even getting into the realm of "what if they don't even have / play tinker?!" How good is Sculpting Steel when the only thing you can copy is stuff you already have on the board?

Like I said, the best solution to BSC is not letting tinker resolve in the first place, as that's the real problem anyway, no matter what Bot you face (which barring being on the draw and having them go turn 1 tinker) is almost always possible. Even IF they go turn 1 Tinker I'd much rather play Tangle Wire then Sculpting Steel on BSC, as Tangle shuts down their mana as well as their threat and should give me time to find another solution.

Sculpting Steel DOESN'T buy me a turn, it eliminates the threat of Blightsteel Colossus at half the price of Duplicant UNLESS my opponent can get any bounce before my summoning sickness wears off.

To be completely fair, lets look at this logically shall we?

The Scenario,
Player 1: Tinkers BSC
Player 2: Sculpting steels BSC
Both players: stand off because neither can't actually attack unless they really want to trade in which case Sculpting Steel reads: 3: Shuffle target creature into opponents library.

The chances of Player 1 actually finding bounce are extremely more likely then player 2 finding some followup that actually lets them deal with the opponents BSC while getting value, because Player 1 is actually playing a deck with Draw and Tutors every of which that resolves immediately wins the game.

If you don't see what I mean, please just play this scenario out to see for yourself.

Now your argument regarding 3 vs 6 mana answers is correct, but Sculpting steel doesn't really "do" anything unless you already have "something". It's a horrible topdeck when you're looking to actually play something and you got to run 3-4 for it to be effective the way you describe.

PS: If you play a deck with 57 other permanents and you have nothing in your deck worth copying, you should think of building a different deck.

You should really look into how good cards are. Brassman has written a very nice article about it in which he states:

Cards are great, but getting them or denying them has a cost. For paying that cost to be correct, it has to be less than the value of those cards, which means you have to know how much those cards are worth. Most of the time, calculating the exact odds of winning a game is an impossible superhuman task. As the game progresses it gets easier, more information becomes public, and life totals shrink. Many games converge to a "got one turn to draw my out" point, which is fairly easy to figure out, but for the bulk of the game and the bulk of the difficult decisions you make, things are not so straightforward.

Sculpting Steel copying a Sphere effect you already have in play isn't as good as most people think it is (paying 4 mana for Sphere of Resistance/ Thorn isn't hot). If you're copying Golem it gets some more return value because of the increased likelyhood of dealing 20 damage in time, but often times copying other lockpieces gets diminishing returns in a hurry (as it also devalues the actuall other copies you have left in your deck, making them even worse topdecks and the question remains if Sphere #2 is better then other <insert random other lockpiece #1> which Steel could have been if you ran that in it's place)

[BruiZar]

u can't attack me either. I don't die if you attack, I simply trade bots, shuffle mine into my deck and you lose a sculpting steel.

Of course I can attack you, actually, the first thing I'm going to do with my copy IS attack you! I will force you to block it and remove your BSC from play. I don't need to come through with an 11/11 because I have a deck with Golems that provide enough of a clock to win the game. Also another minor point, if you shuffle your BSC back, you have a chance to top deck a BSC, while I have a chance to top deck my Sculpting Steel again.

Sculpting Steel answers BSC at half the prize of Duplicant. Duplicant turns BSC against its opponent by becoming an 11/11. While getting free 11/11's is certainly good, it's not when you are paying 6 mana (or more) in the early game! Duplicant is useless if you can't cast it, and Sculpting Steel is a perfect answer to an early BSC. Sure it doesn't give you an 11/11, but the benefits outweigh the cons. Both Tangle Wire and an extra Sculpting Steel win you the game, whereas a single Sculpting Steel saves your ass turn 1/2. You are comparing  Counterspell to Spelljack, no doubt Spelljack is stronger, its just that it costs 3 times the mana Counterspell requires.

The difference is this:
*Duplicant requires your opponent to play threats
*Sculpting Steel requires you to play threats.

Workshop decks are not reactive, they are proactive, so you should lead with threats. Duplicant does nothing to avoid a H.Recall/Rebuild. Sculpting Steel will since it can copy Thorn of Amethyst, Phyrexian Revoker naming another mana source, Sphere of Resistence or Lodestone golem. Duplicant will do nothing against a player that decides not to tinker for BSC but mass bounce / tendrils you, or mass bounce, tutor vault key.

Duplicant is good against goyfs, but you should already be good against those kinds of decks.

Another point is that you want to have several (3) Sculpting Steels so you have a reliable chance of drawing one in your first 10 cards so you are fast enough to answer BSC (Workshop doesn't have good draw engines).

If you would have to prepare against BSC with Duplicants, this means every time your opponent doesn't tinker for Duplicant, you will be sitting with a dead Duplicant in your hand. A 6 mana 2/4 is simply not good. You can play it as a sideboard card, but dedicating 3 slots or more in the main is downright inappropriate, whereas less than that won't save your ass against BSC on a regular basis.

[Marske]

@Bruizar,
I'm perfectly fine with agreeing to disagree regarding Sculpting Steel. I've preferred running Duplicant over Sculpting Steel when I run Shop decks, which has only been Espresso Stax. I've never once wanted Duplicant to be Sculpting Steel, I have wished Sculpting Steel was Duplicant during testing when I faced down Trygons and what not. Lets just leave it at that and I'll withdraw from this discussion. As you are clearly suggesting people handle BSC and I'm clearly in the camp that wants to attack Tinker.

[Prospero]

Brassman's points regarding the issues with Sculpting Steel are very well put.  It's probably the most concise explanation about the negatives of the card that I've seen.  Definitely worth considering.

[chalywong]

If I was going into a tournament and every single person sitting across from me had BSC/tinker in their deck I would prefer the sculpting steel plan BUT we play magic in a world with "metagames".  In the course of a tournament duplicant is going to get much more value than steel would because it has profitable targets in so many matches.  Welders, Confidants, trygons, goyfs, piledrivers, iona, sphinxes are all going to be seen during the day.  I think the train of thought that BSC is going to being the end all tinker target and watering down your deck significantly to accommodate it will greatly hurt your performances in 5+ round tournaments and unknown metagames.

[Blue Lotus]

You should probably re-title this thread "shop class"

Also great read

[nineisnoone]

Excellent read.  I've loved Hellkite since the start.

As far as Duplicant/Steel goes, do not forget that Duplicant makes an opponent Tinkering scary for them.  The conversation is focusing a lot on solving the problem, but let's not forget that Duplicant creates problems as well. 

That said, I'm generally not a huge Duplicant fan.   But I accept that it definitely is the good for its purpose.  Steel, I used to be big on, but there are just too many strong artifacts these days in my opinion to justify it.  Objective power isn't always the most important question.  Sure it is a cheaper 2nd Smokestack, and essentially would be objectively superior to the first.  And I loved the first one, so why wouldn't I love the 2nd cheaper one even more?  But I already have one.  Just because something is on sale, doesn't mean you want to buy it. 

[Bongo]

Great primer, loved the Latin titles.

General question: How do you sideboard against control? I already have Duplicants main, so I'm wondering if I should even board at all. Control decks load up on artifact post-board, so the matchups turns more into their favor, while I'm not doing anything to improve. This feels a little problematic. Any ideas?

[Will]

Great primer, loved the Latin titles.

General question: How do you sideboard against control? I already have Duplicants main, so I'm wondering if I should even board at all. Control decks load up on artifact post-board, so the matchups turns more into their favor, while I'm not doing anything to improve. This feels a little problematic. Any ideas?

This all depends on what list you are running and what deck you are playing against because Control is a bit too broad of a category. 

[Bongo]

I'm running this:

4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Mishra’s Factory
1 Rishadan Port
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt

4 Metalworker
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Duplicant
2 Karn, Silver Golem

I run the 19th land because Duplicant increases the curve. Port is pretty useful by itself, manaflood is very rare. I like it so far.
Sideboard is:

4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Duplicant
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Jester's Cap
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Triskelion

It's pretty random, suggestions are welcome. Basically the only things I'm frequently siding in are the cards for the mirror, Fish and Dredge. Against control, I usually do something like -1 Mana Vault, -1 Steel Hellkite, +2 Duplicant to deal with their Tinkerbot. Somehow I feel this is lacking when I see my opponent siding in 6+ hate cards..

Under the moniker "control", I include: 1. Drain-based 2. Gush-based 3. Oath-based decks. This is a personal definition, I just want to show that I rarely board any cards against all those archetypes. "Big Blue" might have been a more accurate name.

[StanleyAugust]

Personally, I believe that Phyrexian Revoker is the way to go at the moment.

It stops a lot that MUD hadn't been able to stop before like Jace, Qasali etc., and helps stop opposing Metalworkers. It's atleast an additional sphere effect by naming a mox.

I am playing Null Rod + Revoker at the moment and it's the best "aggro mud" build I've played.

[Aaron Patten]

I have been goldfishing with the assumption that I'm playing against MUD and they've gone first and get a chalice on zero plus a turn 1 sphere effect followed by a sphere effect each of there following turns.  This is a really easily achieveable scenario in MUD and I can't figure any way to get around it without playing spirit guides and or gemstone caverns in enough abundance that I can guarantee a turn 1 answer to the first sphere and follow with a successive set of answers every turn to every sphere effect.  Without that set of plays the MUD always wins.  

So; what if the goal of MUD were to guarantee that first turn play and following sequence of at least 1 additional sphere per turn?  With serum powder it seems possible to aggressively mulligan to that draw.  I originally thought that green would be really good to get playsets of crop rotation in the main but i don't think the deck needs them so I've come up with this list.  

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Serum Powder
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Powder Keg
1 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
2 Steel Hellkite
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Mishra’s Factory
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Sculpting Steel
3 Pithing Needle
3 Null Rod
2 Duplicant

Let me know what you think.  

The 4 powder keg is for the case where you are on the draw and want to eliminate their moxen so in that case you would use the serum powde to aggressively mulligan to powder keg instead of chalice.  Maybe it's worth playing ratchet bomb?  You decide...  and let me know.  

Edit: after further considderation(namely oath and jace) Ratchet Bomb should get in over Powder Keg.  ie -4 Powder Keg +4 Ratchet Bomb.  

[metalwalker]

Thanks for the great primer prospero, definitely a lot of lessons learned from the nature of Shop decks.  Has Serum Powder still be good in testing?  The only problem I see is not really the topdecking situation which I fully agreed with your explanation, but rather the hands you decided to keep with Serum Powder being fundamentally a X minus 1 card hand (in this analysis I don't consider Serum Powder to be of much function in MUD since every other Moxen gives mana the way Serum Powder would).  Would that X minus 1 card hand kept with Serum Powder present a potential loss of power where you would have mulled a bad hand without playing Serum Powder and still end up with X minus 1 card hand?

[audetnelson1]

here is the list i run

land
4 mishra workshop
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
2 city of traitor
2 mishra factory
1 strip mine
1 tolarian academy

creature
4 steel hellkite
4 metalworker
4 lodestone golem
2 karn silver golem

artefact
5 mox
black lotus
mana vault
mana crypt
sol ring
4 sphere of resistance
4 thorn of amethyst
4 cotv
4 tangle wire
1 trinisphere
2 sculpting steel

[Bibendum]

So what's your guys thoughts on the new karn if he is real? I think 7 mana without workshops can't happen even with metalworker on a consistant basis but do any of you feel he can fit in as a one of in those type lists? He decimates hands and boardstate if he lands but that's a huge if without shops to power him out.

[BaronSengir]

Hi guys new MUD player here. I've been playing Oath and wanted to try something new and Mud seemed like a fun option. I just had a couple questions about two cards functionality.

For Smokestack can I sack a permanent and then put a soot counter on it or do I have to put the counter on first and then sack stuff equal to the number of counters? Also for Tanglewire, on my turn can i remove a fade counter and then tap permanents since both abilities say at the beginning of your upkeep?

Thanks again guys. This primer has been really helpful. 

[Prospero]

Hi guys new MUD player here. I've been playing Oath and wanted to try something new and Mud seemed like a fun option. I just had a couple questions about two cards functionality.

For Smokestack can I sack a permanent and then put a soot counter on it or do I have to put the counter on first and then sack stuff equal to the number of counters? Also for Tanglewire, on my turn can i remove a fade counter and then tap permanents since both abilities say at the beginning of your upkeep?

Thanks again guys. This primer has been really helpful.  

Hey there.

The short answer to your questions is yes.  

The explanation:

You control your triggers, so you control the order in which they're put on the stack.  There are two triggers for Smokestack - the add a counter trigger and the sacrifice a permanent trigger.  Sometimes it's beneficial to put the sacrifice on the stack, then put the counter on the stack (which, because of 'last in, first out' means that you add the counter, then sacrifice permanents.)  One example of that would be in the Oath match, if you've been given a spirit token.  

Generally, though, it's best to put the add a counter on the stack, then put the sacrifice trigger on the stack (when we're talking about your turn.)  This means that you sacrifice equal to the number of counters, then add a counter (if you so choose.)  

Things are essentially the same with Tangle Wire.  You are able to remove a fading counter, and then tap, on your turn by saying "stack the tapping, stack the fading" - this means that the fading resolves first, then the tapping resolves second.

Once again, remember, the manner in which you stack your triggers on your opponent's turn matters a great deal.  You can force them to sacrifice to Smokestack, then tap to Tangle Wire (thus potentially holding down a significant number of additional permanents) by putting the Wire on the stack, then the Smokestack on the stack.  The Smokestack will resolve, then the Wire will resolve.

Good luck with the deck.

[BaronSengir]

Once again, remember, the manner in which you stack your triggers on your opponent's turn matters a great deal.  You can force them to sacrifice to Smokestack, then tap to Tangle Wire (thus potentially holding down a significant number of additional permanents) by putting the Wire on the stack, then the Smokestack on the stack.  The Smokestack will resolve, then the Wire will resolve.

Good luck with the deck.

Thanks! So I can basically control which happens first on my opponent's turn also because both cards occur in the upkeep? Wouldn't Tangle Wire go first though because it says at the beginning of the player's upkeep and Smokestack just says During player's upkeep?

[Prospero]

Once again, remember, the manner in which you stack your triggers on your opponent's turn matters a great deal.  You can force them to sacrifice to Smokestack, then tap to Tangle Wire (thus potentially holding down a significant number of additional permanents) by putting the Wire on the stack, then the Smokestack on the stack.  The Smokestack will resolve, then the Wire will resolve.

Good luck with the deck.

Thanks! So I can basically control which happens first on my opponent's turn also because both cards occur in the upkeep? Wouldn't Tangle Wire go first though because it says at the beginning of the player's upkeep and Smokestack just says During player's upkeep?

Both have been errata'd to read 'at the beginning of each upkeep'.

You control the triggers on your cards, so you choose the order in which they resolve.  Because of APNAP (Active Player, Non-Active Player) the active player's effects go on the stack first, meaning that they resolve last (remember, because of 'first in, last out'.)

If they have an Oath, Mana Crypt, Bob, or other trigger, it's still going to go on the stack, but it won't resolve until your effects are done resolving, as they are the last ones put on the stack.

[BaronSengir]

Wow thanks so much! That really helped cleared a lot up.