[Deck] GAP - Green Artifact Power

[beder]

Hi,

Some of us love the game – Magic as a board game -, some of us love the competition – Magic as a contest -, some of us love the thinking – Magic as a cogitation/chess like game, some of us just like the cards and the universe…After all, we are all different and it is perfectly ok for us looking for different things.

When it comes to me, what I like the most is to build new ideas, to create new decks, to try different roads. Sometimes it is efficient, sometimes it is not… Well, that’s life. Playing with the same deck and trying to master it is something I am not really interested in (even if I perfectly understand the interest for some other people).

After this short preamble – me telling my life - let’s move to the idea.

“Who never dreamed of having 4 tinker in a deck?
Who never dreamed of having 5 tolarian academy in a deck?
Who never dreamed of putting opponent in a situation where he is not allowed to play any spells, not even a single one?

Well, I did, so I built something pretty funny and at the same time quite efficient IMO.

//////////// GAP - Green Artifact Power V1.0 ////////////////////

// Lands
    4 Gaea's Cradle
    4 Dryad Arbor
    2 Windswept Heath
    2 Savannah
    2 Horizon Canopy
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    4 Memnite
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Xantid Swarm
    4 Painter's Servant
    1 Qasali Pridemage
    1 Eternal Witness
    1 Duplicant
    1 Terastodon
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
    5 moxes + Lotus + Sol Ring + Mana Crypt
    2 Mox Opal

    3 Grindstone
    4 Skullclamp

    4 Natural Order
    3 Green Sun's Zenith

/////////////////////////////////////////////


At first, as a frequent TMD reader, you may think "WTF, this is a vintage guy. What is this pile???".

Then, also because you are a member of TMD - and so curious and open minded - you will have a look at this...

Hum, Gaea's cradle... Hum small creature... Hum skullclamp... Strange...
Hum, Natural's order, Painter, Green Sun's Zenith, Mox opal.... Why not...

And if after all that, you are still interested, here are some remarks regarding this build :

The strategies
Plan A: Natural Order, to put on the board Terastodon or Iona (if you already have painter on board naming green)
Plan B: Painter Stone
Plan C: … aggro, but this is not really efficient… if you are in aggro mode, you should be in a bad situation.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The observations
The deck is sufficiently fast to be interesting. Turn 2-3 natural order or painter/stone is pretty frequent.
Then and thanks to Xantid, it is rarely out of the game. Xantid is “key” to ensure that you can come back in the game, from almost any situations, even if opponent has a hand full of counters.
Finally, thanks to the original mana base, the deck can really play against shop. Thorn or even Lodestone are not so painfull for this deck. And in today’s meta, that’s interesting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

The principles
This is definitely a combo deck. It uses very few disruption but protects its combo thanks to 7 x Xantid Swarn (4 real ones +3 green Sun’s Zenith).

The mana acceleration is pretty strong thanks to the full moxen but also thanks to Gaea's Cradle. With 25 creatures in the deck, most of them costing 0 or 1, the legendary land is a huge accelerator. This mana is pretty important to play around opponent’s spellpierce or be able to combo even against sphere. In the end, this is an original mana base but not so fragile. I would even say that it is pretty solid given that it relies on creatures, artifact and land.

The draw engine of the deck is based on skullclamp. Most of your creature will nicely feed skullclamp and help you throwing another threat if the first one has been disrupted.

Green Sun's Zenith is used as a stabilizer of the deck (mana or creature in early game) and as a tutor for solution (quasali), protection (Xantid) or bomb recurrence (Eternal). Note that it can even be used to get Duplicant, cause 7 mana is clearly not something impossible with this deck.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

In the end, this is an interesting build with a brand new strategy.

If you like the following situation :
- first turn, you play a bunch of small cards and your opponent look at you like "WTF, this is vintage guy!",
- second turn you play the painter/stone combo, but stone is countered,
- third turn, you play natural's order for Iona (sacrifying Dryad arbor for instance), denying opponent to play any spells for the rest of the game

... then you should like this deck...

Feel free to react, feel free to test it,

Cheers,

Nicolas


PS: another version is also interesting, with blue in place of white=>
- 2 Windswept Heath, -2 Savannah, -2 Horizon Canopy, - 1 Dryad Arbor
+ 4 Misty Rainforest, + 3 tropical

- 3 Green Zenith, -1 mox opal
+ 1 Ancestral, + 1 Mystical tutor, + 1 Tinker, + 1 Thirst

- 1 Qasali Pridemage, -1 Eternal Witness, - 1 Duplicant
+ 1 Blightsteel Colossus, + 2 Sage of Epyr

For the time being, don't know if this is better or not.

[Daenyth]

Looks a bit interesting. Can you record some sample games and post a play-by-play? Maybe against Tezz, Workshops, Storm, etc?

[beder]

Looks a bit interesting. Can you record some sample games and post a play-by-play? Maybe against Tezz, Workshops, Storm, etc?

Well, providing sample games or play-by-play is a difficult thing to do, especially because I am still in the "tuning-phase" of the deck.
For instance, yesterday, i thought : "what if I use Could of faeries in place of sage of epytr in the blue vesion?"This could be pretty good, especially with all those lands which can produce more than one mana. Well, that's another idea that I have to try.

----------------------------------------------
Neverthless, I can provide you with some feedbacks from testing the main deck.

- Shop/MUD
There are 2 cards that are really dangerous :  triskellion and chalice (note that chalice is not as dangerous for the G/W version, thanks to Green Sun Zenith).
Apart from that, the matchup is pretty nice. This build puts quickly in play a lot of small permanents, rely on small spells and artifacts so Golemn and Thorn are really not that threatening. Both combo are easy to play and generally fast enough to deal with MUD attack. Moreover, with 15 lands (5 of them producing generally more than one mana), 4 noble and 7+1 mana artifact, you can play under sphere.  

- Shop/Red
This one was really difficult, because welder cuts you from one of your combo. Then, welder cannot be targeted by Terrastodon. So the opponent can weld back a duplicant and that's game. Plus, this deck tends to play triskell... And if Null Rod is added to this, then you are really in a bad matchup (null rod cutting you from the Painter/Stone plan but also from the Skullclamp engine).

- Oath
I tested this one during 4 games yesterday. 4 is not significant enough, especially because I don't know the real value of opponents. But in the end, the results were good. Mainly because the deck was a "little bit faster" than oath (SkullClamp is interesting here because it sometimes win you a turn). Note that those oath deck didn't play Gaea's blessing, which would have cut one of my combos).

- Jace/Blue
Didn't test it enough. But the first observations were : they counter/disrupt the first attempt to combo, then if they counter/disrupt the second one, I am likely to lose (except if I have skullclamp on board). If not, I win. Xantid Swarn and Skullclamp are the mvps of this matchup. One point that I noticed is that TrygonPredator is a pain in the ass.

- G/W aggro
Few tests, slightly positive ones. Gaadock Teeg cuts me from the Plan A. Quasali from the plan B. So in the end, it is a rush. You have to combo before they put in place their aggro control components. One danger of this rush is Sword to plowshare, which can totally destroy your Terastodon/Aggro plan.

- Dredge
Just played 2 or 3 games, during which i succeeded in rushing 2 games out of three, thanks to an early Terastodon destroying bazaar and creating a small army on my side (keep in mind that skullclamping your creatures remove those awfull bridges from yard, reducing the zombies generation to an acceptable level for your own army)
----------------------------------------------

In the end, some tests against lots of different decks, but not enough to be affirmative. Moreover, I am still discovering some new moves with this deck, which is not so easy to play. Then, I am just testing the main, without any side...

Nicolas

Remark : those observations are based on the G/W version. I haven't had enough time to test the blue one, which should be more aggressive but perhaps less resilient. In the end, I don't know if it improves the idea or weakens it. Will need to test it to see.

[beder]

For those of you who are interested by the G/U list, here is the current list I am testing :

//// GAP - Green Blue V1.1 ////

// Lands
    
    1 Tolarian Academy
    4 Gaea's Cradle
    
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Windswept Heath
    
    3 Dryad Arbor
    3 Tropical Island

// Creatures
    
    4 Memnite
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Xantid Swarm
    4 Painter's Servant
    
    1 Sage of Epityr
    1 Cloud of Faeries
    
    2 Terastodon
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mox Opal
    
    3 Grindstone
    4 Skullclamp
    
    4 Natural Order
    
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Tinker
    1 Thirst for Knowledge

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Some remarks :

- Before, I felt like having 5 tolarians and 4 tinkers. Now, it is symetric, 5 tolarians and 5 tinkers Even better.

- This is an aggressive approach, with tinker being at the same time a plan C + a support for the painter/stone combo + an out to chalice.

- The 4 fetches are excellent, allowing easy access to dryad arbor or tropical, depending on your need.  

- One Sage + One cloud are a nice random addition.
Early game, Sage is good to make sure that you will be the aggressor (finding combo). Mid/late game, it feeds skullclamp.
Early game, cloud of faerie is a nice accelerator. Mid-late game, it can be used in order to play "fairly" a terrastodon. It is clearly possible to hardcast Terrastodon and it can be your out to a mid-long game, where opponent has disrupted your first and second attempt to combo.

- Ancestrall and Thirst give me some other draw options, which is nice.

Remark : 18 small creatures + 7 access to Dryad Arbor is very close to the minimum to support Gaea's cradle. If you want it to be really efficient, I wouldn't advice to reduce the amount of small creatures.

In the end, I think I prefer that build, which is more straight to the point and perhaps just "more powefull".

Tip: do not forget that equiping  Blighsteel Colossus with Skullclamp is sometimes the difference between "it dealing 9 poison counters" and "gg".

[RecklessEmbermage]

What an interesting concept! Blightsteel with clamp is hilarious. I'll keep a close watch on this thread.

How many dryad arbors have you ever fetched/played in a game? Could it be that you never want more than two? In that case, the third (or fourth) should be a fetch. Have you considered Elvish Spirit Guide as an alternative to off-color moxen? It would enable double green turn one or relevant plays when you would otherwise open on no turn one green mana. Synergy with cradle, clamp and NO doesn't hurt. ESG would also help you replace the memnites with tukatongue thallid. Thallid is also a worthy zenith target if you have four mana and a clamp on the table. Memnite seems too dependant on painter's servant. Is xantid swarm your best turn one play? If so, 4 green sun's zenith seems reasonable. These changes would probably invalidate academy, mox opal and tinker in the blue version.

[beder]

What an interesting concept! Blightsteel with clamp is hilarious. I'll keep a close watch on this thread.

How many dryad arbors have you ever fetched/played in a game? Could it be that you never want more than two? In that case, the third (or fourth) should be a fetch.

Well, I have to think about your question. This is an interesting idea. Maybe you are right, one more fetch could even be better.

Have you considered Elvish Spirit Guide as an alternative to off-color moxen? It would enable double green turn one or relevant plays when you would otherwise open on no turn one green mana. Synergy with cradle, clamp and NO doesn't hurt. ESG would also help you replace the memnites with tukatongue thallid. Thallid is also a worthy zenith target if you have four mana and a clamp on the table. Memnite seems too dependant on painter's servant.

I tried tukatongue thallid: I would say that in this build, this is an illustration of the "danger of cool thing".
This one mana difference with Memnite may be a huge difference. Let's keep in mind that Memnite is part of the engine of this deck, both for its synergie with SkullClamp, Tolarian Academy, Mox Opal but even more important, with Gaea's Cradle. This is the reason why Memnite is in this deck. It is sometimes as good as a mox, sometimes as good as a card which would say " :draw 2 cards". In the end, the fact that it cost 0 and is an artifact is definitely relevant (provides agility and speed).

Is xantid swarm your best turn one play? If so, 4 green sun's zenith seems reasonable. These changes would probably invalidate academy, mox opal and tinker in the blue version.

Xantid is one of the best turn one play. But to be honnest, I am less and less sure about Green Sun's Zenith. Sure, it is nice, but apart from Xantid, there aren't so many important targets. Quasali may sometimes be interesting, but I don't know if it is worse the slots. Gaadock Teeg would be nice, if it didn't cut you from Natural's order...

[Tobi]

Gaadock Teeg would be nice, if it didn't cut you from Natural's order...

... and from Green Sun's Zenith. 
Nice deck btw. I love exploiting new deck ideas instead of playing the "optimal" stuff over and over. Too bad I just sold my Gaea's Cradle and Natural Orders. 

[beder]

What an interesting concept! Blightsteel with clamp is hilarious. I'll keep a close watch on this thread.

How many dryad arbors have you ever fetched/played in a game? Could it be that you never want more than two? In that case, the third (or fourth) should be a fetch.

Well, I have to think about your question. This is an interesting idea. Maybe you are right, one more fetch could even be better.

I thought about it and tested it. You are right, 2 dryad is good and sufficent. So I moved to 5 fetches, 2 tropical, 2 dryad and 1 forest. This is just better : solidify the mana base, provides with more options, ... just significantly better.

Thanks for the idea!

PS : by the way, a little update for the matchups pre board:

- Shop is definitely a good one. Small permanents, artifact creatures, lots of mana producers, tolarian-like lands and a combo finish which doesn't need storm or tutoring for a piece of the combo. Just a good plan against shop.

- Jace is definitely playable. Like any combo decks, if they have a hand with several "first turns" disruptions, it is difficult. But if they just have one disruption, then I generally succeed in doing 2 combo attempts in the first 2-4 turns. For sure, if they stabilize and bring you to the mid late game, with dark-conf and/or jace, then you are very likely to lose.

- Oath is a nice matchup. The combo seems to be just one turn too fast for the opponent to be able to rely on oath. Especially because oath protection - during the turn they have to wait - is generally spellpierce, which is not such a good solution against this deck (lots of mana, lots of creatures).

- I tested against a landstill deck (with null rod, waste, swords, big blue control, balance and trygon). It was full of information.
First this deck doesn't like sword to plowshare. Investing your resources to put a terrastodon on board, destroying some resources of the opponent, having your terastodon sworded and losing against your own token army, is really an horrible situation (the same is true for blightsteel colossus).
Second, this deck doesn't like null rod. Not that it is really painfull on a mana disruption point of view (you have some other reliable options), but it really cuts you from your draw engine and one of your combo. Not good.
Third, this deck doesn't like mana drain. Having opponent invest 2 cards with fow to stop one attempt to combo is ok. You will be able to try next turns. But having it drain your attempt is really a pain in the ass.  
In the end, this is a rush and/or you have to rely on Xantid.

This led me to the following conclusion. Against fish, G/W aggro or any deck which uses sword, your plan is simple with terrastodon: destroy your own permanent with terrastodon, build your own army, then go for aggro-alpha strike.

[beder]

Help requested from the community.

One problem that I need to fix and for which I ask for the community help. Tinker/blightsteel by itself, with no tutor to get it, is good but not incredible. Well, it is incredible when you play it very early game. But it is also sometimes just useless when blightsteel is in hand for instance.
 
Let me share with you the different parameters of my build issue.

- In a way or another, I would like to have a third consistant option, apart form Natural's=>Terastodon or Painter=>Stone. Having a different target for Natural's order for instance would very be good, if it stays in the combo spirit. Defending is not really a good option for this deck. Progenitus could be one option, but it does nothing apart aggro, and for that I already have terastodon. For sure, it would be very good against sword and so should be in the side, but is it sufficent to add it main...

- In a way or another (which could not imply tinker, could imply for instance another green creature), I would like to have an out for Blighsteel Colossus. But if I go for an out, it has to be a consistant one. If it is not consistant, it is perhaps better to just ignore blightsteel and accept to lose some games against it, at the benefit of a better perfomance in the other cases.
Right now, I am just in the middle, which is not good. I have an out but not a reliable one: tinkering my own blightsteel to defend opponent's one is definitely not reliable, especially when you don't have any tutor for tinker.
Again, Progenitus could be a solution, with his protection, it can block blightsteel everyday. But just blocking it may not be suficent, especially when you are the aggressor.

- There is not interesting Green/Artifact creature, which could at the same time be a target for natural's order and tinker, that's such a shame... Except if I missed it, so if someone has an idea, it would be more than welcome,

- Some tinker targets, less expensive than Blightsteel, could be hardastable with the huge mana production (duplicant, Battlesphere, or even sundering), making them less dead when in hand,

- All the artifact can become Natura's Order target if painter is on the board.

In the end, here is the "big creatures package" I am almost sure about :
- 2 Terrastodon or 1 Terrastodon and another "very dangerous" green creature (because if just one, when in my hand, natural's order doesn't have any relevant target left if painter is not on board)
- 1 Iona (even if it is sometimes dead, being able to win right now, in combinaison with painter, is just too strong to ommit),

And we are talking about 3-6 potential slots :
- Tinker/Blightsteel/thirst
- 2nd terrastodon, if someone comes with a green great to replace the 2nd one, but it really has to be great because being able to consistently natural's order a terastodon is huge,
- Sage of Epytr + Cloud of faeries (but if you touch those slots, you have to include in your proposal some small creatures which can be played early game - to support Gaea and feed skullclamp in mid-late game)

Do not hesitate to be innovative. One could even have a suggestion with another color that blue (but it has to be significantly good to remove ancestrall and do not benefit from the on-color advantage of tolarian). It can be more combo oriented, more solution for natural's order, more filtering, ... But in any case, it has to be consistant with the existing engine/synergy of the build.

Waiting for your remarks, innovative ideas and suggestions!

PS : writing this, I feel like I already have one part of the solution, adding for instance one Progenitus, perhaps in place of one terrastodon.

[serracollector]

Vexing Shusher should be somewhere in your 75 cards.  Can be found with zenith, and then lets you cast everything you want w no fear of counters. 

Why no crop rotations? Once Xantid swarm atks, you can crop one cradle for another, and just chain thru your deck with clamps.

Regal Force is a nice green card that could help.  Tinker-> Myr Battlesphere, Natural Order-> Regal Force, draw a lot win. etc etc.

Woodfall Primus, he is great when you need to destroy something.  Same with Acidic slime for a few mana less, and has deathtouch.  Could be handy.

And if you are playing blue, and painter/grindstone, then drop the grindstone count to 1-2, and throw in 2-3 trinket mage, which can find clamp and grindstone, or a mox etc.  Way better than sage I would think, and still quite clampable.

Imagine painter out, zenith for 4, get trinket mage, get grindstone, win.  Trinet mage should def be in there.

GL hope that helps.

[beder]

Vexing Shusher should be somewhere in your 75 cards.  Can be found with zenith, and then lets you cast everything you want w no fear of counters. 
Why no crop rotations? Once Xantid swarm atks, you can crop one cradle for another, and just chain thru your deck with clamps.

I tried crop. For sure, it is sometimes nice. But in the end, you can only use it to search for gaea. Sometimes, it will allow you to have lots lots of mana, but is is really necessary. The deck does not use skullclamp in the same way as Elves for instance. Chaining more than 2 usages of Skullclamp is not an objective by itself. In the end, IMO, it is either win-more or has a too restricted usage.   

Regal Force is a nice green card that could help.  Tinker-> Myr Battlesphere, Natural Order-> Regal Force, draw a lot win. etc etc.

Also look like a win more IMO. If I succeed in playing tinker and natural's order, then i should win in any cases. 

Woodfall Primus, he is great when you need to destroy something.  Same with Acidic slime for a few mana less, and has deathtouch.  Could be handy.

This one could definitely be a nice idea. If I could find a way to destroy it (apart from natural's order), to use its persist ability, it would be excellent. Also cause it targets creature. 

And if you are playing blue, and painter/grindstone, then drop the grindstone count to 1-2, and throw in 2-3 trinket mage, which can find clamp and grindstone, or a mox etc.  Way better than sage I would think, and still quite clampable.

Imagine painter out, zenith for 4, get trinket mage, get grindstone, win.  Trinet mage should def be in there.

Trinket is very interesting, you are right. The funny thing is that at once, I used one of them in a G/W build, to get grindstone through zenith (with painter on board). I don't know why I removed it, especially when moving to G/U.

[Daenyth]

Deglamer is a potential out to BSC.

[Beralt]

Brainstorm would be nice to shuffle back your Natural Order/Tinker targets but it decreases your creature/artifact count, the only method you have currently is Thirst.  Myr Servitor would give you reusable Skullclamp targets but I think it's too slow, but you may play with it some. Null Rod is my big issue with Skullclamp.  Mox Diamond would certainly be useful in utilizing the extra Cradles that you draw.  Or alternatively rather then playing 4 cradles you could consider Crop Rotation as it would find Academy as necessary.

[beder]

Dear all,

Here is the very last version of GAP.
I took different advices from the previous messages, this version is definitely better than the previous ones.

// Lands
    1 Tolarian Academy
    4 Gaea's Cradle
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Windswept Heath
    2 Dryad Arbor
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Forest

// Creatures
    4 Memnite
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Xantid Swarm
    4 Painter's Servant
    2 Sage of Epityr

    1 Progenitus
    1 Terastodon
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring

    3 Grindstone

    4 Skullclamp
    4 Natural Order

    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Tinker
    1 Thirst for Knowledge

The mana base has been changed, with more fetches (5 which can find dryad arbor) and one forest. This is just better than the previous one. No discussion on this. Thanks for the advice.

The 4 blue spells are a good "broken" complement to the core components of the deck. It helps to keep having threats.

When it comes to trinket mage, I am really hesitating.
In some rare situation, I will want to search for something different from grindstone. For all the other situations, a 3rd grindstone is just better.
In some very rare situation, I will want to get trinket on board thanks to natural's order (with painter in play). But generally, if painter is in play, I will just go for iona.
In the end, given that I don't really use a "tool kit" of small artifact, I feel like this maybe more efficient to just have the artifact I want to get in multiples.

Finally, I still don't know if I don't need mystical tutor and timewalk. Perhaps I should try to add them in the sage of epytr slots... But then, reducing the number of creatures would weaken the efficiency of Gaea, which is just key in this deck.

Remark: my advice is not to test that deck on mws. Except if you accept being insulted by kids who really do not like to lose to something like this deck. From the last week, I have a whole collection of insults, it makes me practice my tolerance

[Eastman]

Wow.  This is a very cool/innovative approach.  I really like the idea of having a painter's servant naming green, then using that ability to sacrifice a non-green creature (memnite) to natural order, then using that ability to get a non-green creature (Iona), then completely STOMPING your opponent with the combination of Iona's ability and the painter.  Wow that is cool.

Like all hard combo, I imagine this would have trouble with traditional control, but it looks like it would have a very solid workshop matchup so in this meta it may be workable. 

You mention that this runs "differently" than elves-not being able to chain the clamps.  But you are not far from that, and I wonder if it is another approach/strength you could bring to the deck?  Since most of your best cards (except grindstone and nature's claim) are creatures, have you thought about adding Glimpse of Nature and pushing for more of an elf-combo style explosiveness?  I think a few cloud of faeries could provide the mana needed to have a pretty explosive turn 2 or 3.   

Just throwing this out there to give you an idea what I have in mind.  But the key idea is trying to squeeze in glimpse of nature and use cloud of faeries/gaea's cradle/skullclamp to generate an explosive turn 3. 


20 Manabase
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest


20 Castable Creatures:
4 memnite
2 ornithopter
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Painter's Servant
3 Noble Heirarch
4 Cloud of Faeries

12 Super Powerful Unrestricted Cards
4 Skullclamp
4 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature

3 Creatures to Fetch with Order
1 Iona
1Terastadon
1 Blighsteel Collosus

2 Grindstone
2 Grindstone

3 Broken
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Tinker

[beder]

Wow.  This is a very cool/innovative approach.  I really like the idea of having a painter's servant naming green, then using that ability to sacrifice a non-green creature (memnite) to natural order, then using that ability to get a non-green creature (Iona), then completely STOMPING your opponent with the combination of Iona's ability and the painter.  Wow that is cool.

Like all hard combo, I imagine this would have trouble with traditional control, but it looks like it would have a very solid workshop matchup so in this meta it may be workable. 

You mention that this runs "differently" than elves-not being able to chain the clamps.  But you are not far from that, and I wonder if it is another approach/strength you could bring to the deck?  Since most of your best cards (except grindstone and nature's claim) are creatures, have you thought about adding Glimpse of Nature and pushing for more of an elf-combo style explosiveness?  I think a few cloud of faeries could provide the mana needed to have a pretty explosive turn 2 or 3.   

Just throwing this out there to give you an idea what I have in mind.  But the key idea is trying to squeeze in glimpse of nature and use cloud of faeries/gaea's cradle/skullclamp to generate an explosive turn 3. 


20 Manabase
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest


20 Castable Creatures:
4 memnite
2 ornithopter
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Painter's Servant
3 Noble Heirarch
4 Cloud of Faeries

12 Super Powerful Unrestricted Cards
4 Skullclamp
4 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature

3 Creatures to Fetch with Order
1 Iona
1Terastadon
1 Blighsteel Collosus

2 Grindstone
2 Grindstone

3 Broken
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Tinker

Thanks for the feedback.
You are right about your matchup analysis :
- traditionnal combo, with a significant number of hard counter/disruption, is a difficult matchup. More Control/Combo oriented are easier because you can try to race them.
- When it comes to shop, the matchup is clearly ok. This is due to the fact that most of your cards are partially affected by the 13 spheres, that one of your win condition (painter/stone) is not so affected by spheres and that Gaea is just huge in this matchup.

I didn't try the glimpse road, maybe I should. Going that road means increasing the number of castable creatures - as you did it in your proposal - but then, I don't know if it is possible to keep a sufficently consistant painter/stone combo (which wins me more of less half of my games). Then, I am also concerned about drawing into my big creatures, without reliable solutions to put them back in library.

But clearly, this could be a direction for such a deck, adding glimpse as a way to "go broken" and overflow opponent's disruption barrier.

[Dr_Tongue]

So I was looking for a nice Legacy port (unfortunately no clamp) and came up with this card for your Skullclamp:

Tukatongue Thallid |Creature -- Fungus| 1/1 When Tukatongue Thallid is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token onto the battlefield. · ARB-IP,CON-C,CON-IP,Vin,Leg,Ext,ALABC,Cla

Can the token it creates from dying draw cards off being equip'd as well? Hit's the GY triggers, etc? Looks like 4 cards for 1 if so, 5 if you draw a card off Glimpse as well.

[Daenyth]

4-for-1 yes, but what's the opportunity cost of running a 1cc do-nothing card?

[Eastman]

Agreed Daenyth, that is the relevant analysis.  But opportunity cost gets to be a tough inquiry when we try to "rely" on certain cards.  If our intent is to leverage skullclamp, than maybe 6x memnite and ornithopter are better than the intuition/AK engine, which with 6 slots most any deck could run.  Similarly it is difficult to predict whether tukatongue thalid (suggested, frighteningly, by the similarly named Dr. Tongue--does he suggest non-tongue cards???) is worth its difficult-to-determine opportunity cost in any particular deck, combined with the myriad cards with which it might be drawn. Add to that an uncertainty as to the matrix of spells against which those combinations will be developed; the metagame.  

[madmanmike25]

Maybe this isn't relevent as GSZ isn't in any lists anymore...but would running a card like Wild Cantor (he's Green) help this deck out?  Seems this deck would like access to black for DT, Vamp, and maybe Will.  Maybe not though.

Btw, good luck with Natural Order, it's essentially green's version of Tinker.  If ever want to try something a tad more stable, add in Lotus Cobra.  He was pretty awesome to power out fast Natural Orders when I tested it.

How is running Glimpse with all the Sphere effects around?

[beder]

Maybe this isn't relevent as GSZ isn't in any lists anymore...but would running a card like Wild Cantor (he's Green) help this deck out?  Seems this deck would like access to black for DT, Vamp, and maybe Will.  Maybe not though.

Btw, good luck with Natural Order, it's essentially green's version of Tinker.  If ever want to try something a tad more stable, add in Lotus Cobra.  He was pretty awesome to power out fast Natural Orders when I tested it.

How is running Glimpse with all the Sphere effects around?

I didn't try Wild Cantor. But I am not sure that it would be better than bird of paradise, if we want to add some potential creature mana producers?

When it comes to black, I tried it, with the tutors and even a set of cabal therapy (and replacing the noble hierarch with bid of paradise). For the time being, it didn't really click. But there could be an idea there.

And finally, when it comes to Glimpse, I have to say that I am not sold to it. I don't know if I am bad at playing it or if I am not lucky with the tempo, but it has been pretty dead in most of the games when I tried it. In fact, in order to benefit from Gaea's power, you have to play you creature as soon as you can. You cannot wait in order to benefit from a huge glimpse effect. And given that this deck cannot produce "increasing amount of mana", it is pretty difficult to really chain creatures.
In the end, I was not really convinced. But I may be wrong or I may not have played it the way I should.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Ornithopter: Since it survives the first clamp activation, is it any good in this deck?

Glimpse should be a bit better with trinket mages.

[beder]

Ornithopter: Since it survives the first clamp activation, is it any good in this deck?

Glimpse should be a bit better with trinket mages.

Ornithopter could be good in the black version I am testing for the time being. Indeed, in this version, the fact that it is 0/2 may even be an advantage.
Equip with skullclamp => orni doesn't die.
Sacrifice to cabal therapy => orni dies and you draw.

Here, orni is even better than a 1/1 creature cause it can support at the same time skullclamp and cabal.

For instance, here is Green/Black version I try.

// Lands
    4 Gaea's Cradle
    1 Tolarian Academy
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Windswept Heath
    2 Dryad Arbor
    2 Bayou
    1 Forest

// Creatures
    4 Memnite
    2 Ornithopter
    1 Tukatongue Thallid

    4 Xantid Swarm
    4 Birds of Paradise
    4 Painter's Servant

    1 Terastodon
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Progenitus

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring

    2 Grindstone
    4 Skullclamp

    4 Natural Order
    2 Cabal Therapy
    
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Diabolic Intent

[TopSecret]

.

[beder]

This is a cool thread. I am reminded of Kobold decks from back in the day. I am pretty convinced there is a Vintage viable version of something that goes off these concepts, even if it's just a metagame deck. Not sure it'll be better than elves, but still. Tukatongue Thallid is a really good find.

For the black version I would suggest Diabolic Intent. Between Painter/Grindstone and Natural Order for Iona, that card seems really sick.
Also I am wondering if Green Sun's Zenith is better than Birds of Paradise's manafixing in the non-Glimpse version, since the Zenith can get Dryad Arbor, Xantid Swarm, or any creature late game when Painter is out. Would it be possible to get an Iona off a lategame Zenith with Cradle and Painter in play?

Damn. This deck may be so cool that I might make an ebook about some modified version of it to properly communicate what I can't say on TMD.

DIABOLIC INTENT, that's it! Thank you so much...

In my memory, I knew there was a black tutor with the "sacrifice a creature" additional cost, but impossible to remember the name of the card... And I don't know why, but the search engine of my mws didn't find it with the following keywords : "additional,sacrifice,creature,search"...

That's just the perfect replacement for the 4th cabal therapy. I definitely have to test it!

And I update the latest list in the previous thread with it.

PS : yes, it is possible to get a Iona with Green Sun's Zenith and Painter in play. I did it once or twice with the original list including Green Sun's Zenith (with tolarian and gaea on board at the same time, it is "mana party time"). So fun

[serracollector]

I still beleive blue should be added for Tinker, and Trinket mage to get your Grindstones/Skullclamps.

No way u can fit in just
Acall
Time Walk
Tinker
2 trinket mage?

This would also make you want to run Myr Battlesphere, as once it is cast it essentialy doubles (or more) your mana from cradle/tolarian academy.
Then casting zenith for Iona/Terestadon should be quite simple.

[beder]

I still beleive blue should be added for Tinker, and Trinket mage to get your Grindstones/Skullclamps.

No way u can fit in just
Acall
Time Walk
Tinker
2 trinket mage?

This would also make you want to run Myr Battlesphere, as once it is cast it essentialy doubles (or more) your mana from cradle/tolarian academy.
Then casting zenith for Iona/Terestadon should be quite simple.

In a the blue version, Ancestrall, Timewalk and Tinker are clearly very good choice. You are right.

When it comes to Trinket Mage, it may be an option, my only concern being that :
- When you have the mana available for trinket, if you spend those 3 mana to get a skullclamp in hand, then it means you are already in a pretty bad situation (turn 2 or 3, with that kind of deck having no disruption, you should look for a solution to win rather than a solution to put a draw engine inline),
- When you have the mana available for trinket, if you spend those 3 mana to get a grindstone in hand, then why not having a grindstone in place of Trinket...
In the end, I found it interesting but "too smart" for this deck.

And finally for myr battlesphere, it is an option as a tinker target. The good point is that it can be hardcasted. The bad point is that blightsteel is just better when on baord...

[Dr.KnowMaD]

Hey, haven't been on in some time and was catching up on some reading when I stumbled on this refreshment.  Very cool.

Trinket Mage should be in here, that was a great idea.  I would also like to try the two Terastodons again with one Engineered Explosives.



                                                                                                                                        Lates,  DrKnowMaD



                                                                                                   

[Wizbane]

Hello Beder. I think your GU version of the deck is the most interesting and innovative. But I would like to see your take on a list that focus more on the combo and less on large numbers of tiny creatures, and with GSZ. Probably leaving out some Gaea's Cradle and looking also elsewhere for green mana.

In a deck more or less starting from this core (raw, open to cutting and adding)...

1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Dryad Arbor

7 Artifact Mana (Black Lotus, 5 Mox, Sol Ring)

6 open slots (with draw engine.. but not Skullclamp here. Intuition/AK sounds good to me.)

4 Birds of Paradise
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Tinker
1 Reshape

1 Iona
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Progenitus

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
1 Regrowth

...what do you think, instead of Trinket Mage that is slow and doesn't fetch Painter's Servant, of Reshape? Basically NO for aritfacts and Tinker #2 or more (well... for painter-stone combo at least), I'm still wondering why it doesn't see much use.

W.

[TopSecret]

I'm still wondering why it doesn't see much use.

Transmute Artifact?