Karn the Released

[ErtaiAdept]

~Karn, the Released      

Planeswalker - Karn   
+4: Target player exiles a card from his or her hand.
-3: Exile target permanent.
-14: Set aside all non-aura permanents exiled by Karn, then restart the game. Then put all cards set aside this way onto the battlefield under your control.

                                             Loyalty  6

I'm pretty sure shops just got a hell of a lot more broken.

edited to add loyalty

[BC]

Loyalty?

Also, 7 mana for a non-artifact can be tough to get.  Still really broken, though.

[ErtaiAdept]

Loyalty?

Also, 7 mana for a non-artifact can be tough to get.  Still really broken, though.

I see it getting cast out with metal worker pretty easily or an ancient tomb/tolarian.  But I suppose under resistance, it might be more difficult.  But I still see it being really a game sealer if you've already got a halfway decent lock on your opponent.  Because now even if they get permanents on the board you have the ability to exile them.

[patat]

Of all the vintage playable cards that cost 7, this one doesn't automatically win you the game, forces you to duress yourself or disrupting scepter your opponent twice (who will definitely exile something you cannot use during a restarted game), and then restarts the game at 20-20. The -3 doesn't even really seem that strong, though I guess colorless permanent removal may be somewhat important with tanglewires and smokestacks.

Maybe an extra lock piece in Mono Brown Prison builds?

Who really knows though.  I guess we have to wait and see...

[Meddling Mike]

The ultimate ability seems a bit oddly worded. Does it include non-aura permanents that get removed with the plus ability? It also seems sloppy in that one would need to track cards that have been exiled by Karn separate from just the cards that have been exiled. After banning Shahrazad I'm surprised they would print something capable of producing a similar effect.

Loyalty?

Also, 7 mana for a non-artifact can be tough to get.  Still really broken, though.

Yes, loyalty. Planeswalkers have neither power nor toughness, they have loyalty counters.

It's a shame they couldn't make this card an artifact planeswalker, as it stands, I'm not sure it's playable in it's current incarnation. In a typical Stax deck you'll need metalworker or academy to have a shot of getting him into play as he can't be cast with workshop and doesn't get around any spheres whatsoever. I guess we'll see how it shakes out.

[BC]

Loyalty?

Also, 7 mana for a non-artifact can be tough to get.  Still really broken, though.

Yes, loyalty. Planeswalkers have neither power nor toughness, they have loyalty counters.

Yeah, I know.  I was asking what the loyalty was... it's 6.

[Diakonov]

It's a shame they couldn't make this card an artifact planeswalker, as it stands, I'm not sure it's playable in it's current incarnation.

You know, I said the same thing when I first saw this, but after some thought it makes a lot more sense that he's not an artifact.  He would be far too easy to kill in the current limited format with the abundance of artifact removal.  The standard they've set for planeswalkers is that they're supposed to be dealt with in the same fashion as killing a player, save Vindicate/bounce effects.  Karn the Planeswalker dying to Crush just doesn't seem right, especially given that Elspeth doesn't die to Go For the Throat.

EDIT: I agree that he is probably not playable, and was speaking strictly from a Limited environment/flavor perspective.

[beder]

7 mana that cannot be paid thanks to workshop for an effect that is not even really powerfull...
IMHO, this is definitely useless and not playable.

[ErtaiAdept]

I think given the fact that he doesn't dodge resistance effects does make him slightly more difficult to cast.  I hadn't considered this when I made my OP.  I still think he could be useful if you manage to get him on the board, but given the difficulty of doing so, perhaps he won't be played as readily.  I can still see him being used as a potential 1 of in a mono brown prison deck if for just the exile abilities not necessarily the final as was previously mentioned to keep the player hard up for things to tap to Tangle Wire.

[TopSecret]

Difficulty casting aside, this thing is so effing nuts if excellerated out early.
Knock out a land, hit a card, knock another land? God Damn. It's like resolving a mindtwist for 6 in the early turns that also says win the game instead of just discard the opponent's hand.
Like, this may sound forward, but I think this can make it into Belcher decks.

[madmanmike25]

Sadly, this Karn is not playable in Vintage.  For seven mana it has a similar effect to Spine of Ish Sah, which doesn't really see any play.

[Jostin123]

If anything make this card unplayable, it's the additional mana cost jump from 6 mana to 7.  I believe this Karn can function as a niche card that can be extremely broken in Shop shells that utilize both Metalworker and Serum Powder; possibly some iteration of 2 card Monte or Shop combo.  In addition to what's been stated, I say thit for the following reasons:

1) The -3 can be used on yourself and not just your opponent.  If you remove a Leyline from your hand to then restart the game, it starts in play.  This is extremely useful for Mud Shells that cannot hard-cast LoTV, or 2 Card Monte games where the shop player can't closeout the game.

2) The ultimate ability allows for Serum powders in those builds to be useful after the original start of game mulligan.  This becomes even more broken after game one strategically.  The comp rules state (in section 103.2)"...In a match of several games, the loser of the previos game chooses who takes the first turn."  If Karn triggers in games 2 or 3 and you begun that game, not only do you begin the game with the removed cards, but you are guaranteed to go first again.  You have gotten to see the sideboard and are able to mulligan again, using serum powder as another free draw 7 to fix your hand, knowing what will be in play on turn 0.  Even removing something as insignificant as a mid-game chalice becomes backbreaking when you can restart the game and mull straight to a golem.  Replace that theoretical chalice with  a leyline or grindstone, and you can see where I'm going with this.

3)  Being an out to BSC - good
     Handles enchantments - better
     One more way to deal with a Basic Island - Priceless

I cannot say that it is playable.  Seven mana is usually way beyond the pricetag of what's reasonable.  However, if this card does find a niche, I have a very strong feeling it will be a monster.

[Shax]

Karn is pretty good. People on this board were talking about the Spine of Ish Blah for a one-of in MUD. Even though this is not a artifact I definatly see the Ultimate effect being handy. RFG'ing ANYTHING an opponent has, then getting to start the game with it on your side is clearly devastating. This is also a Planeswalker. It might not be Jace, TMS great. Itis Karn the Released great though. I can see this with MUD decks that badly needed an out to hate cards like Null Rod. Did I mention the ultimate gives you all their cards? In a 5c Stax deck you basically Donald Trump all their restricted cards and get to play them.

[Neonico]

OKay it's a little more expensive, and hard to cast without metalworker but its :
 - At worst it's a mana denial every turn
 - IT's a good way to attack control decks hand
 - It does what duppliquant do without the body, so at worst, it's an auto include instead of duppliquant
 - It deals with null Rod

Definatly a 3of in my MUD list.

[Lemnear]

OKay it's a little more expensive, and hard to cast without metalworker but its :
 - At worst it's a mana denial every turn
 - IT's a good way to attack control decks hand
 - It does what duppliquant do without the body, so at worst, it's an auto include instead of duppliquant
 - It deals with null Rod

Definatly a 3of in my MUD list.

I feel ike I have to make a few corrections here:

 - At worst it's a mana denial every turn      --> No, it's just a discard effect .... and the opponent chosses what card to bin.  Liliana Vess did the same and wasn't an argument to play her
 - IT's a good way to attack control decks hand    --> It's a 7 mana card! How does it attack an opponents hand if it'll never resolve vs. control? It's like saying: "Yawgmoth's Bargain is a good way to attack control!". A flaw in logic imo
 - It does what duppliquant do without the body, so at worst, it's an auto include instead of duppliquant   --> you miss that Duplicant is castable by workshops, don't ya? 7 non-shop mana in MuD? Please....
 - It deals with null Rod   --> Oh, does it? Let me know how you cast a 7 mana spell without artifact-mana and workshops in MUD ... I'm very curious...

You ignore all the downsides completely and argue instead that those are the points karn shine?! Really? The only reason this might become playable in vintage is a twisted TPS player with too much rituals in his deck and a semi-comatic-boozed-night before a tournament sleeving up Karn accidently or if mono green ramp becomes a tier deck (that might happen if Tom LaPille and Evan Erwin manage the B&R list ... lol)

[LordHomerCat]

At worst, it's an uncastable 7-drop in your hand that does nothing.  At best, its either a disrupting sceptre or two vindicates for 7 non-shop mana.  Doesn't Spine of Ish Sah do this already, in artifact form?  This card is unplayable.  Lemnear is correct on all counts.

[DubDub]

This card is unplayable

... in MUD/Shops/Stax.  Yes.  It's not the worst thing to crank out on turn one Belcher Style though.  Perhaps 5th Belcher?

[LordHomerCat]

This card is unplayable

... in MUD/Shops/Stax.  Yes.  It's not the worst thing to crank out on turn one Belcher Style though.  Perhaps 5th Belcher?

That's called Empty the Warrens.  It actually wins the game.  Casting this?  Does not win the game.  Therefore, spending your whole hand to (maybe) resolve this with no permanents sounds pretty unappealing.

[GrandpaBelcher]

This card is unplayable

... in MUD/Shops/Stax.  Yes.  It's not the worst thing to crank out on turn one Belcher Style though.  Perhaps 5th Belcher?

That's called Empty the Warrens.  It actually wins the game.  Casting this?  Does not win the game.  Therefore, spending your whole hand to (maybe) resolve this with no permanents sounds pretty unappealing.

I've actually been testing Karn in Belcher. It's insanely good.

[President Skroob]

This card is unplayable

... in MUD/Shops/Stax.  Yes.  It's not the worst thing to crank out on turn one Belcher Style though.  Perhaps 5th Belcher?

Going all-in to win the game with a Goblin Charbelcher is good.

Going all-in to play a fairly weak piece of disruption without any real backup plan to win the game is... a questionable tactic.

[TopSecret]

I don't know why there are haters here for this card in belcher.
could someone please tell me a likely way to lose when you resolve this turn one?
your opponent pretty much has to get a nut draw as far as I can tell
and that's not something you have to beat anyway

and it's not like winning after resolving this is a problem
you either win with belcher a couple turns later
or you just get to reset the game with all their permanents
which equals complete nuts for belcher because it's like starting the game with 14 cards or something
how can you ever fizzle then?
it's kind of like shaharazashizam
your opponent has to scoop when you resolve it
but it's better
cause running out of time isn't bad
cause you're playing belcher

[LordHomerCat]

I don't know why there are haters here for this card in belcher.
could someone please tell me a likely way to lose when you resolve this turn one?
your opponent pretty much has to get a nut draw as far as I can tell
and that's not something you have to beat anyway

and it's not like winning after resolving this is a problem
you either win with belcher a couple turns later
or you just get to reset the game with all their permanents
which equals complete nuts for belcher because it's like starting the game with 14 cards or something
how can you ever fizzle then?
it's kind of like shaharazashizam
your opponent has to scoop when you resolve it
but it's better
cause running out of time isn't bad
cause you're playing belcher

What?  How are you winning with belcher a couple turns later after spending your whole hand to get this guy in play?  And how are you taking all their permanents, that is the -3 ability.  Every time you do that, it puts you 2 turns further from the ultimate.  You realize that people tend to win games of vintage against opponents who do nothing relevant in a pretty short time frame, right?

[GrandpaBelcher]

I don't know why there are haters here for this card in belcher.
could someone please tell me a likely way to lose when you resolve this turn one?
your opponent pretty much has to get a nut draw as far as I can tell
and that's not something you have to beat anyway

and it's not like winning after resolving this is a problem
you either win with belcher a couple turns later
or you just get to reset the game with all their permanents
which equals complete nuts for belcher because it's like starting the game with 14 cards or something
how can you ever fizzle then?
it's kind of like shaharazashizam
your opponent has to scoop when you resolve it
but it's better
cause running out of time isn't bad
cause you're playing belcher

What?  How are you winning with belcher a couple turns later after spending your whole hand to get this guy in play?  And how are you taking all their permanents, that is the -3 ability.  Every time you do that, it puts you 2 turns further from the ultimate.  You realize that people tend to win games of vintage against opponents who do nothing relevant in a pretty short time frame, right?

You can use the first ability on yourself. When you restart the game with Karn, you can start with a Belcher in play.

[LordHomerCat]

I don't know why there are haters here for this card in belcher.
could someone please tell me a likely way to lose when you resolve this turn one?
your opponent pretty much has to get a nut draw as far as I can tell
and that's not something you have to beat anyway

and it's not like winning after resolving this is a problem
you either win with belcher a couple turns later
or you just get to reset the game with all their permanents
which equals complete nuts for belcher because it's like starting the game with 14 cards or something
how can you ever fizzle then?
it's kind of like shaharazashizam
your opponent has to scoop when you resolve it
but it's better
cause running out of time isn't bad
cause you're playing belcher

What?  How are you winning with belcher a couple turns later after spending your whole hand to get this guy in play?  And how are you taking all their permanents, that is the -3 ability.  Every time you do that, it puts you 2 turns further from the ultimate.  You realize that people tend to win games of vintage against opponents who do nothing relevant in a pretty short time frame, right?

You can use the first ability on yourself. When you restart the game with Karn, you can start with a Belcher in play.

I hate you.

[ErtaiAdept]

I may be reading this wrong but even if you exile a card from their hand (+4) if that card is a permanent and you restart the game you will still get it.  Now that's not to say they may have no permanents in hand for you to exile but it could still happen.

[Lemnear]

Wait!

You pay 7 to play Karn and then remove your own Belcher from your hand to restart the game 2 turns later? Am I the only one gett'n the joke here? XD

[Shax]

The only joke is that the topdecked Belcher you just drew in one of the two turns it takes to ramp Karn is now a WMD unless you want to strip the opponents hand/board some more before getting too the Belch. Yeah, you won't have a hand when you cast this guy. Against super Fish he might be weak..

[Blue Lotus]

You can use the first ability on yourself. When you restart the game with Karn, you can start with a Belcher in play.

Haha I think you just broke the mirror

[TopSecret]

I guess at this point the only question is which is better as an alternate win in Belcher:
Karn the Released
or Nicol Bolas?

[Lemnear]

Guys, this isn't funny anymore .... Belcher is perfectly fine with the namesake and EtW, which is hard to answer in vintage because of the lack of E.Explosives or Echoing Truth. Moreover the ability to eat a card per turn isn't that impressive in Vintage with fastmana and critical spells everywhere.

Might be different in Legacy but I'm very satisfied with the Team build of 2x taiga, 4x Belcher, 4x Burning Wish, 3x EtW, 4x Serum Powder as "kill-conditions". (People still dismiss the Powder we run instead of the bullshit-slots like manamorphose or street wraith. I remind you why Espresso Staxx or Ichorid play them .... sames true 4 belcher)