Responding to Workshop and Blue with flexibility and versitality

[serracollector]

Bolt stops the Welder/Condfidant/Qasaili/Noble Hierarch now as a 1 for 1, preacher + clamp stops all the now, for the same mana cost, its colorless (the clamp, in comparison to red needed for bolt), and it provides a 2 for 1 CA draw engine, which this deck is missing.  1 Clamp and 1 preacher is about the best you can get for all the X/1 bears in vintage, that is until they print a green creature that can steal creatures....

Also, Skullclamp can be "almost" as efficeint as the Oooze against dredge as you can sac critters to draw cards and remove bridges, also stealing an ichorid can be funny. 

in my GW I personally ran 2 EE SB for dredge, and I have before popped a EE killing all dredge zombies, then stole thier Return Target with Preacher.  Not often, but it happens.  Just a side note.

Preacher and Clamp are just amazing vs any kind of TWA, fish or the like.

[Guli]

Bolt stops the Welder/Condfidant/Qasaili/Noble Hierarch now as a 1 for 1, preacher + clamp stops all the now, for the same mana cost, its colorless (the clamp, in comparison to red needed for bolt), and it provides a 2 for 1 CA draw engine, which this deck is missing.  1 Clamp and 1 preacher is about the best you can get for all the X/1 bears in vintage, that is until they print a green creature that can steal creatures....

Also, Skullclamp can be "almost" as efficeint as the Oooze against dredge as you can sac critters to draw cards and remove bridges, also stealing an ichorid can be funny.  

in my GW I personally ran 2 EE SB for dredge, and I have before popped a EE killing all dredge zombies, then stole thier Return Target with Preacher.  Not often, but it happens.  Just a side note.

Preacher and Clamp are just amazing vs any kind of TWA, fish or the like.

But it is not the same cost at all. Also it requires 2 cards to set up that amazing anti-fish combo. This can count!

With only 1 copy of Preacher, you are expecting a lot from the card. Against dredge he will be irrelevant, because dredge can kill you twice before you get him in play. I can seem him being OK against Workshop if you can ever cast him. And he is OK against Blue that uses Tinker/BLightsteel and maybe a couple COnfidants. He is very strong against Fish, agreed. But that match up is already strong with the Stoneforge Mystics, Bolts and Null Rod removal main deck.


Preacher doesn't fill any gabs. My biggest self-criticism is not Magus of the Moon, I fixed the mana concerns a long time ago. It is also not the match up against creature decks. It is also not the lack of solutions against Tinker. I feel like we, as fish in general, do have a lot more ways to deal with the Tinker issue. My problem is that this deck needs a bit more to deal with Blue/Combo/Storm type of deck. Sure there is Teeg, Canonist, Magus, Aven and so on but a quick TV is still problematic. The 3 Nature's Claim feels like insufficient. Null Rod sounds good in the Canonist spot to help out in delaying the Control player and stopping them from going all to broken but still, 1 well timed bounce and you have achieved nothing but an illusion of disruption. It is possible though to play with Batterskull and Null Rod since it is not activated. Look how Null Rod can repress your possibilities. I don't like the card, it doesn't leave much room for the human factor, creativity, intuition, ... You might as well drop the sol ring, mana crypt, stoneforge, equips, ... just change your deck while you are at it.

I want to ask, why would having an 1/1 on the table in addition to tutoring up a creature be better than Eladamri's Call? Eladamri's Call is an instant, costs less so with 4 mana you can play a 2 drop. Is it because you can copy it with Metamorph and maybe have another equip target? I would prefer to have a deck that would not feel the need to tutor and have a smooth threat density with answers available at all times. This is possible with flexible card choices. Eladamri's Call  does give flexibility but at the cost of mana and time and this is exactly the things we can't spare anymore. I didn't add 2x of some cards because I could tutor them. I am spreading slots to answer archetypes and filling those slots up with cards that answer multiple archetypes. Not all slots can be used in a multi-functional way though. Some slots are used to HATE the dominant archetypes.

 

[serracollector]

Well if your worried about the TV/Storm probs, you can always maindeck or sideboard Burning Tree Shaman.  It turns TV into a 20 (or less) turn clock, it makes fetches cost 2 life, and makes the voltaic key/sensies dt/Jace/tezz alot more painful.  This would also add another green bear to your group, which would make green suns' zenith just a "lil"
 bit more useful.  I personally love GSZ as it puts the critter directly into play, BUT once again its crap with Teeg in play so I dono wat to do about that.

[Guli]

Burning Tree Shaman, never tested it actually, but it has been suggested in the past. I wonder how he would work out. If the goal is to punish them by damage, wouldn't Pyrostatic Pillar be more interesting against Blue?

Instead of thinking about how to stop their strategy, because a lot of the deck is already dedicated to that, perhaps solidifying our own game play is also an alternative. Someone said more draw. I agree partly for this statement. I think there is already a draw engine but we are not fully exploring it and also a bit more acceleration is needed. Trust me of this deck gets more speed manawise and makes full use of Stoneforge Mystic, I think a lot of improvement will be made.

After some thinking, I thought about Lotus Cobra. I got a lot of motivations, it is a creature which is something you want when playing this rather unexplored archetype of Equipment-Fish, secondly Lotus Cobra is not affected by Null Rod. Thirdly, it is a card that will truly make the mana base so strong that the prison strategy of Workshop will all be useless. Lastly, in combination with sol ring, mana crypt, ruby, pearl, emerald and black lotus the deck has a strong acceleration package. This will cause more explosiveness in general and it is necessary to support this with a strong card advantage strategy. This does not have to be direct card draw.

So Lotus Cobra is a creature based acceleration card that will enable to play both your bombs like Gaddock and Magus AND do things with Stoneforge Mystic/Equip to make card advantage. Because Cobra is fortunately a creature it has the potential to cast the equipment and equip itself in some situations.

I went through the database of equipments. My search criteria were to find something like SOFI but that could interact with Blue. I found Sunforger, really the only thing that made sense to me. There were other interesting stuff but Sunforger really caught my attention.



So I partly went through the red/white instants below cmc four. But I figured afterwards that I could simply play the cheap and effective ones and with a card like Sunforger I can tutor them up when I need them to make card advantage. This is not all, this part is about spot removal like Lightning Bolt, Hide/Seek, Swords to Plowshares, Rack and Ruin... The other application is about responding to the opponent with   . This means there is an offensive and defence way of playing Sunforger. The card to get against Control/Combo would be Orim's Chant. But you can also get that against other decks.

Let's see what we got until now. We got a deck that packs strong disruptive bears which will cause a lot of problems if they hit the battlefield. And we got a good amount of acceleration. We also have plans to invest some of this mana into powerful but also mana intensive equipment like Sword of Fire and Ice and Sunforger.

Wouldn't Orim's Chant be nice anyway here? Similar to Vexing Shusher against Mana drain/Force of Will Orim's Chant could force your bears in acting as a pre-emptive counter.


An example of a turn 1 Cobra:


5 mana will give you a lot of opening options. You can force in (Orim) Magus turn 2. Or without Orim you can get your Sunforge with Mystic and cast Magus without protection.

Another extra to specifically consider with Orim is that it could work very well with Magus in hand on the play. You Orim's Chant on their upkeep and with any artifact acceleration you have a turn 2 Magus and all they could play is 1 land.

Thought on Lotus Cobra, Sunforger and Orim's Chant?

[Daenyth]

Sunforger looks quite expensive. Do you think you'll be able to afford the cost of it? Attaching it and keeping mana to throw it in a single turn is 3{R}{W}..

[rikimaru75]

Can the unattach ability of sunforger be used at instant speed or is it the same speed as equip?

With the number of fetches and lotus cobra, I think you might be able to utilize it.

[brianpk80]

Can the unattach ability of sunforger be used at instant speed or is it the same speed as equip?

With the number of fetches and lotus cobra, I think you might be able to utilize it.

It can unattach at instant speed.  Guli, I have always liked Sunforger in theory and if there's any context where the card would work, it would be the deck you have.  My personal experience with it has always been cumbersome.  I think it may be awesome in a way that is win-more.  It's reliant to some extent on Stoneforge, but it would be the third tutor target, since Batterskull and SoFI are superior.  Relying on it to stop combo is unlikely since it's too slow, so if it's for anti-control purposes, I think Vexing Shusher accomplishes the job effectively.  It's worth investigating though.     

[Guli]

In practice he is also very expensive Brian. Usually when you tutor for the card, you can equip it the next turn and start dealing serious damage. Then, the turn after he can tutor for instants. This without a Lotus Cobra. With a Lotus, this process is potentially speed up by a turn and Sunforge would become as fast as SOFI right now. The thing is, SOFI with Lotus Cobra is not necessarily speed up 1 turn.

The picture here is that Lotus Cobra will give a serious mana boost. Sunforger is perhaps a wrong call.

Maybe it is enough, and things like Sunforger are win more. Having 4-5 mana on turn 2 would mean multiple bombs and this speed might be the answer to Blue. This is the critical question, is investing slots into Lotus Cobra, additional mana boost, the correct call?


Sword of Light and Shadow might be better than Batterskull. With Qasali Pridemage and Stingscourger in mind and some of your bears will die and get countered this sounds like a nice way to get back cards. The idea is about the same as Batterskull, you could potentially keep bringing back blockers and it is also gains life (mana crypt). At least this will give you a decision tree when casting Stoneforge Mystic assuming you are playing with 2 Swords.


PS: Here is the artwork of Ooze.

[serracollector]

Lotus cobra don't play well with Burning Tree Shaman.   Just a side note.

But overall I think Lotus Cobra is amazing.  Also, remember you can techinically drop Batterkull into play at EOT with Stoneforger, then Equip SoFi to the germ, bounce the Batterskull and repeat.  Mind you this is a 7 mana investment, BUT it is 7 mana over 2 turns, gaining you CA, in the form of Draw from Sofi, extra Creatures to equip from Batterskull, and extra life and damage from sofi and batterskull.  This alone would make me want to play Batterskull over SoLS.   Those germ tokens can be used and abused and keep coming back.  All off a fetch if you got lotus Cobra in play.  I personally would think there would be few and far between times that you would actually return a critter to hand with SOLS.  Everyone bounces or Duplicates or Swords or Duplicants critters, all of which makes SOLS useless.  Also, as we all know, 4 life is better than 3.

my 2 cents.  hope it helps.

[Guli]

Here is a GWr version with Null Rod, tuned and ready to go.

// Basic Lands
    3 Forest
    3 Plains

// Non-basic lands
    1 Plateau
    1 Taiga
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Wasteland
    4 Windswept Heath
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Arid Mesa

// Creatures
    3 Aven Mindcensor
    3 Magus of the Moon
    3 Gaddock Teeg

    3 Leonin Arbiter
    3 Kataki, War's Wage

    4 Noble Hierarch
    3 Elvish Spirit Guide

    4 Tarmogoyf

// Artifacts
    3 Null Rod
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl

// Instants
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Nature's Claim
    3 Mental Misstep

// Sideboard
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Leonin Arbiter
    3 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Dust to Dust
    4 Relic of Progenitus
    3 Tormod's Crypt

[serracollector]

-2 swords +2 noxious revival.

I like it tho.  Ever had trouble with Arbiter and the 6 fetches?

[Guli]

Don't touch the Swords! They are very important against almost any deck.

I like the list as it is, the null rod version.


The equipment version now, I have been thinking and the next elements are key to make it work:

1. Mana
 - Solid mana base with basic lands and fetchlands
 - Acceleration

You need permanents that give you mana over the course of the game. Lotus Cobra and Noble Hierarch do this. They will solidify the Workshop Matchup. On top of that chrome mox will be used to further boost the deck. Because there will a serious draw engine you can afford the loss of cards. This deck does not produce mana of Workshop, Ancient Tomb like MUD or TMWA does. But used the two best creatures that give you mana and firepower.

2. Powerfull disruption in the form of creatures
 - Use only the best
 - Look what you need, rest is win-more
 - Protect you creatures

You need Gaddock Teeg, Aven Mindcensor, Magus of the Moon and Phyrexian Metamoprh. You do not need anything else. (Maybe Qasali should be in here too.)

3. Draw engine
 - Sword of Fire and Ice
 - You don't need anything else
 - Just get it on the battlefield with your acceleration and start using it.
 - You will have Stoneforger to find it

You don't need any other equipment. SOFI is superiour and will help point 2.3 (protect your creatures). Because there is a lot of acceleration in the form of creatures, you can also use those creatures as equip target. This means your draw engine cards have a direct link with your acceleration cards.

The versions without Null Rod (mana denial) that opts to get your stuff on the board super fast and start drawing new cards with SOFI while you beat them with a fast clock:

// Basic Lands
    3 Forest
    3 Plains

// Non-basic lands
    1 Plateau
    1 Taiga
    4 Windswept Heath
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Arid Mesa

// Disruptive Creatures
    4 Aven Mindcensor
    4 Magus of the Moon
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Phyrexian Metamorph
    3 Qasali Pridemage

// Draw Engine
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    3 Sword of Fire and Ice

// Acceleration
    4 Noble Hierarch
    4 Lotus Cobra
    2 Chrome Mox
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt

// Artifact Removal (and Oath)
    3 Nature's Claim

// Sideboard
    4 Relic of Progenitus
    4 Tormods Crpt
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 Dust to Dust

[SadDubs]

does anyone have results either from testing or tournament play?