[Deck Discussion] Fatestitcher Dredge

[voltron00x]

It's probably stronger to sideboard out Ancestral Recall since it does very little outside your opening hand.  Golgari Thug does what he does consistently throughout the whole game.  He can also recycle Narcomoebas in a bind.

Sounds correct to me.

Anyway, this deck is great and I may write about it this weekend if I have time.

[Troy_Costisick]

It's probably stronger to sideboard out Ancestral Recall since it does very little outside your opening hand.  Golgari Thug does what he does consistently throughout the whole game.  He can also recycle Narcomoebas in a bind.

Sounds correct to me.

Anyway, this deck is great and I may write about it this weekend if I have time.

SWEETNESS!  Can't wait to read it if you do.

[Gambit]

Matt congrats on your solid performance yesterday and sorry to had take off before the top 8.

Would you mind going through your sideboard plan for blue and artifact decks, what cards come out for each deck and perhaps sideboard strategies if on the play or draw?

My plan against your average Drain deck, especially one with Time Vault, was something like this:

-2 Dread Return, -3 Sun Titan, -3 Fatestitcher, -1 LED, -1 Mox Sapphire, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Black Lotus, -1 Golgari Thug

+2 Darkblast, +1 City of Brass, +4 Nature's Claim, +4 Chain of Vapor, +2 Ancient Grudge

Against Paul Mastriano, I knew his deck was packed with 4x Jailer (or the previous versions were), so I sided differently:

+2 Darkblast, +1 City of Brass, +2 Ancient Grudge, +4 Chain of Vapor, +2 Firestorm

-2 Dread Return, -3 Sun Titan, -1 Fatestitcher, -1 LED, -1 Mox Sapphire, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Black Lotus, -1 Golgari Thug


I didn't really do any testing pre-event, so I'm not sure whether it is better to side out 1 Ancestral Recall or 1 Golgari Thug.

Wow, that's a lot of cards. I've found bringing in 6 cards for game 2 seems about right. Usually 4 Chain 2 Claim. Then for game 3 siding appropriate for the hate. But I really dislike watering down the deck with all the sb cards. Usually you only need to answer 1 piece of hate, and keeping in fatestitchers allows you a turn in which they can't recover from. Glad to see you're keeping at least 1 dread return in for each matchup, that's a mistake I think a lot of people make is to side out all of them.

[Purple Hat]

To follow-up on my last post, here's what i played at blue bell today:

Maindeck (60):

1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Serum Powder
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Fatestitcher
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Sun Titan
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 City of Brass
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard (15):
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
1 City of Brass
2 Darkblast
2 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim

... I would definitely keep the 2 Ichorids in the main, they were actually pretty good.  Sometimes you want that Haste, especially in a list with no FKZ or other "combo" win.  Also, definitely play 4 Cabal Therapies, I can't possibly imagine playing 3.  They're critical in this version since you always have to "pass" after you go off.  That, or add a FKZ.

I'm confused.  Why do you always have to pass the turn?  you're playing FKZ.

[voltron00x]

That was a typo, I didn't play FKZ.  That should be a singleton Darkblast.

And, I did submit an article to SCG about this deck, and threw an untested Oath deck in there too.  Should hopefully run this week!

[voltron00x]

Yay this deck won Vintage Champs!   

[Commandant]

How does this list beat the mirror running Leyline? Curious Matt - did Mark play any mirrors?

[voltron00x]

Game 1 would be pretty miserable.  I don't think he played any mirrors but I'll talk to him about it.

[Commandant]

Game 1 would be pretty miserable.  I don't think he played any mirrors but I'll talk to him about it.

I'm also curious how often he used the Artifact mana. I ran a few of those namely Black Lotus and Mox Saphire. I found both to be dead draws and very situational as you have to have them in the opener. I ended up cutting them as I rarely if ever had an issue getting a mana land for Fatestitcher. Regarding post board I'd much rather have a City or Paradise.

[voltron00x]

Game 1 would be pretty miserable.  I don't think he played any mirrors but I'll talk to him about it.

I'm also curious how often he used the Artifact mana. I ran a few of those namely Black Lotus and Mox Saphire. I found both to be dead draws and very situational as you have to have them in the opener. I ended up cutting them as I rarely if ever had an issue getting a mana land for Fatestitcher. Regarding post board I'd much rather have a City or Paradise.

Well, one of the principal ideas behind playing this build is that Dredge was really unpopular for a time, so you should be dodging G1 Leyline of the Void. 

The fast mana package gets sided out in most match-ups, but I did win a couple game 1s with it. 

As a side note, regardless of which Dredge build you play, definitely consider Ancient Grudge.  It was great for me and Mark said it was amazing for him as well.

[rideserum20]

What do you think about Marks 1 change to the SB? -1 City of Brass for 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

[voltron00x]

What do you think about Marks 1 change to the SB? -1 City of Brass for 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

I wouldn't recommend cutting the colored mana source, but I know Mark is writing a report, so that may reveal how useful Elesh Norn was.  He also added +1 FKZ to the main (for -1 Darkblast).  I believe those were the two changes I noticed.

[Beralt]

There was even a comment that he might consider cutting 2 of the Sun Titans for Phantasmal Images, I think one replacement at most as you do need to copy the Sun Titan to be effective.

Nice report and I am happy to see such an "extreme" deck win, I didn't see that much "variance" and his opponents were all reasonably solid. This is one of my favorite archetypes and I am glad to see it get a high profile win - unfortunately that probably means more hate making it's way into sideboard and maindeck in the future.

[meadbert]

How does this list beat the mirror running Leyline? Curious Matt - did Mark play any mirrors?

Depends on what you mean by mirror.  If you mean Fatestitcher Dredge with Leyline then you are in trouble, but you mean something without Fatestitchers then you must remember that you are about a full turn faster than your opponent preboard which means you should win if they do not have Leyline.  If they have Leyline, but no discard effect then it becomes similar to if you both had Leylines at least until they top deck a Bazaar.
If they have Leyline and Bazaar then you lose.

Post board, you mess your deck up less because you already are running the Mana.  Also, IMHO 2 Fatestitchers are wonderful post board because they speed up how fast you win once you remove a Leyline.
Basically you can EOT chain Leyline.  Then activate Bazaar discarding Dredger.
Next turn Bazaar Dredge on upkeep.  Next Dredge for your draw.  Next bring out Fatestitcher and reuse Bazaar.  You are now 5 Dredges in and read to do something nasty.

[msg67183]

I am curious, how good is a list like this in the current metagane?

[msg67183]

I think removing the artifact mana and ancestral and putting in 4 chain of vapor and the 4th city of brass allow the deck to still be turn 2 explosive, but not simply fold to main deck leylines like Mark Hornung's list. What are everyone else's thoughts?

[msg67183]

Here is the list I have put together after quite a bit of thinking, it seems to still be faster than other dredge lists, but seems like it has the ability to withstand main hate, namely Leyline of the Void from the mirror.

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bloodghast
2 Ichorid
2 Golgari Thug
3 Fatestitcher
3 Sun Titan
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Chain of Vapor

Sideboard:

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ichorid
1 Dakmor Salvage
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Darkblast
4 Nature's Claim
4 Chalice of the Void

The main deck is pretty self explanatory, I want to combo consistently ASAP.
The sideboard transitions into a Grindy deck with Ichorids and anti hate, Chalice of the Void was the last slot, was debating between them, Ingot Chewer, or Leyline of the Void. Decided on Chalice because it beats the only decks that seems to be a real problem when you are on the play, Shops and Burning Long, as well as slows broken blue down.
I think this list seems very strong for the metagame, thanks for reading.

[Tammit67]

Well it has been nearly two years since this thread has been touched, but as the subject of this thread is exactly what I'd like to discuss, it seems like a good place to hold the conversation. Many cards will differ from old lists by name but not by function.

Reference updated list:

4 Bazaar of Bagdhad
4 Mana Confluence
4 Undiscovered paradise
2 gemstone mine
1 Dakmor salvage
4 Serum Powder

4 Golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 darkblast
4 narcomoeba
4 bloodghast
3 ichorid
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Mental misstep
2 Fatesticher
1 Sun Titan
1 Flamekin Zealot
3 Dread return
4 Cabal therapy
4 Bridge from below

SB:
4 Nature's claim
2 Ingot Chewer
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Firestorm
1 Elesh norn, grand cenobite
3 Serenity


This current configuration is very vulnerable to containment priest. As such, I'm kinda looking for a card that can answer priest and isn't useless against rest in peace, another white hate piece that has been printed since. Abrupt decay is kinda hard on the mana and might be the best answer instead of serenity here.

There is also some consideration to revisiting chalice in the main to hit blue decks and to a lesser extent shops, but that would most likely come at the cost of the preboarded chewers/missteps.

[vaughnbros]

This current configuration is very vulnerable to containment priest. As such, I'm kinda looking for a card that can answer priest and isn't useless against rest in peace, another white hate piece that has been printed since. Abrupt decay is kinda hard on the mana and might be the best answer instead of serenity here.

You should be running at least 3 darkblasts.  Its not the best answer to priest, but it still answers her.  It also takes up relatively no slots in the deck as it just replaces other dredgers.  It also does double duty in killing other annoying creatures, like welder and jailor, as well as being the easiest dredge card to get into your graveyard when you don't have bazaar to get you started game 2/3.

As for end all answers, even abrupt decay doesn't answer everything as Leyline of the Void is out of its kill range, and it can't target tabernacle at all.  You'd really have to go to vindicate to have an end all answer, but 3 mana is a pretty absurd cost for such an effect.

The only way to reliably beat every hate piece is to use a sideboard transformation plan.  This has been working well for me for going on well over 2 years now.

There is also some consideration to revisiting chalice in the main to hit blue decks and to a lesser extent shops, but that would most likely come at the cost of the preboarded chewers/missteps.

There are a number of other non-essential win cards in your deck list that could be cut down in numbers.  Chalice at 1 post-board is also a pretty disgusting feeling as most blue pilots aren't prepared to deal with it.

[Tammit67]

I don't know how I feel running chalice on 1 out against blue pilots when most if not all of my antihate gets hit as well. Certainly against any UW deck, that chalice at 1 will end up killing me if they ahve jailer or RiP or Priest.

Darkblast is... I don't know. I was considering it (looks like i forgot to mention that) but it feels terrible if the priest gets paired with anything else. Perhaps that fear is unwarranted

[vaughnbros]

I don't know how I feel running chalice on 1 out against blue pilots when most if not all of my antihate gets hit as well. Certainly against any UW deck, that chalice at 1 will end up killing me if they ahve jailer or RiP or Priest.

It certainly depends on the deck you are up against.  Chalice at 1 against delver shuts off about half their deck and if you wanted to gear around it chewer, wispmare, and abrupt decay all get around it.  There's also the option of moving to force of wills, which answers most hate pieces, but you would need to up your misstep/fatestitcher/laboratory maniac numbers to get the proper blue count.

Darkblast is... I don't know. I was considering it (looks like i forgot to mention that) but it feels terrible if the priest gets paired with anything else. Perhaps that fear is unwarranted

Anytime two hate pieces come down its not a good time.  You just have to answer the other piece first before you can deal with Priest.  Darkblast doesn't actual compete for spots with other anti hate cards.  Its competing with Golgari Thug.  How good has Thug been versus hate for you?  I mean when facing down a ton of hate cards on the table the man plan is semi-legitimate even without a transformation.

[Tammit67]

Yeah, to that point I think the gemstone mines are just going to become city of brasses so I can use them more than 3 times if need be. The board is cluttered enough without dice

[Stormanimagus]

You don't really need a card that answers priest AND RIP all at once. Most folks are on the priest plan cause they are running greedy delve cards like dig through time and treasure cruise OR they are running gy strategies like Salvagers combo OR BOTH in the same deck. Or they are running Gifts which requires a yard. In other words, most players are electing to play decks that utilize the yard. You needn't worry too much about RIP. It will be played only fringe I think.

-Storm

[Ozymandias]

Riftstone Portal helps cast Abrupt Decay. Wispmare triggers bridges against a Priest and kills RIP. Unmask gets both cards on the play. There's always Chain of Vapor.

[Tammit67]

You don't really need a card that answers priest AND RIP all at once. Most folks are on the priest plan cause they are running greedy delve cards like dig through time and treasure cruise OR they are running gy strategies like Salvagers combo OR BOTH in the same deck. Or they are running Gifts which requires a yard. In other words, most players are electing to play decks that utilize the yard. You needn't worry too much about RIP. It will be played only fringe I think.

-Storm

Perhaps this is the case and i am too worried about being widely applicable rather than simple very good against the 1-3 cards I'd want it against. It just kinda sucks when I have to play the guessing game against some UW lists over whether they have priests or peace and get the call wrong

[Stormanimagus]

You don't really need a card that answers priest AND RIP all at once. Most folks are on the priest plan cause they are running greedy delve cards like dig through time and treasure cruise OR they are running gy strategies like Salvagers combo OR BOTH in the same deck. Or they are running Gifts which requires a yard. In other words, most players are electing to play decks that utilize the yard. You needn't worry too much about RIP. It will be played only fringe I think.

-Storm

Perhaps this is the case and i am too worried about being widely applicable rather than simple very good against the 1-3 cards I'd want it against. It just kinda sucks when I have to play the guessing game against some UW lists over whether they have priests or peace and get the call wrong

You won't get the call wrong though is the thing. 90% of the time they are on the priest plan because THEIR game plan involves exiling cards from their yard for dig through time or treasure cruise. RIP would throw a wrench in that pretty hard. I think that RIP will be only played by fringe decks so only having a couple answers to it is fine.

-Storm

[Tammit67]

Eternal Extravaganza
3rd after Swiss
6th in Final standings

Vintage Dredge list:
4 Bazaar
4 mana confluence
4 undiscovered paradise
2 gemstone mine/city of brass
1 dakmor salvage
4 Serum Powder

4 grave troll
4 Stinkweed imp
2 golgari thug
1 darkblast
4 ingot chewer
4 bloodghast
4 narcomoeba
3 ichorid
4 cabal therapy
3 dread return
1 Sun titan
1 Flamekin Zealot
2 Fatestitcher
4 Bridge from below

SB in flux:
4 Nature's claim
4 Chain of vapor
2 darkblast
1 Firestorm
3 Serenity
1 Elesh norn

The Sun titan + fatesticher plan helped me close out game ones as non-interactively as possible, often before ichorid came online. Fatesticher outside of the bazaar application has been good to get another body on board to sacrifice and/or tap down a blocker.

Darkblast was my dredge-able answer to containment priest. someone else was running sudden shock to answer priest which I think is worse since it has to be found by not dredging. You can usually clear the hand of missteps thanks to therapy then blast dredge blast off the two sources to kill a priest. Maybe swords to plowshares or even journey to nowhere is decent since I keep bridges I've already dredged. Depending on their clock, you can hardcast thugs to generate tokens and/or get back narcos. I don't think priest is what kills this deck.

Serenity and chain of vapor didn't do much of anything this event (though I did get to bounce an otherwise lethal Blightsteel). I could see trying wispmare in those slots or something else entirely.

For the 3rd event in a row, I didn't touch the firestorm and unsure if it is necessary.

Matchups:
Rd 1: Win over Workshops (dunno which, he died without doing anything) 2-0
Rd 2: Win over Matthew Murray on UW Mentor 2-1
Rd 3: Loss to Merfolk :V 1-2
Rd 4: Win over minus 6 2-0
Rd 5: Win over Forgemaster 2-0
Rd 6: Win over UWr mentor delver 2-0
Rd 7: Win over Terranova shops 2-1
6-1 in matches 13-4 in games

Top 8: Loss to Nicholas DiJohn on Forgemaster shops 1-2

[TakeYourTime]

Very impressive finish, Matt.

Darkblast was my dredge-able answer to containment priest. someone else was running sudden shock to answer priest which I think is worse since it has to be found by not dredging. You can usually clear the hand of missteps thanks to therapy then blast dredge blast off the two sources to kill a priest. Maybe swords to plowshares or even journey to nowhere is decent since I keep bridges I've already dredged. Depending on their clock, you can hardcast thugs to generate tokens and/or get back narcos. I don't think priest is what kills this deck.

This is really good input. I was on UWR Landstill and my dredge hate was 3 Grafdigger's Cage and 3 Containment Priest (and I'd probably side in an Ingot Chewer). I don't really test against Dredge but you've made me reconsider graveyard sweepers.

[Tammit67]

Very impressive finish, Matt.

This is really good input. I was on UWR Landstill and my dredge hate was 3 Grafdigger's Cage and 3 Containment Priest (and I'd probably side in an Ingot Chewer). I don't really test against Dredge but you've made me reconsider graveyard sweepers.

Don't get me wrong, priest is really annoying and depending on the clock you've presented I won't have time to do the thug line or dredge for darkblast. I want more testing postboard against priests

[Samoht]

Priest decks usually have Misstep. The time you spend investing into finding Darkblast and casting two is significant. Then if they Misstep you it's really tough to come back. I found Murderous Cut and other spells to be more reliable at actually answering Priest despite being harder to actually get into hand. Also, a lot of decks on Priest are also on Rest in Peace. I was on 4 Darkblast last time I played Dredge and got crushed by any UWx deck because of Priest. I'm not sure that we can afford to be all in on Darkblast. It's why I borrowed 60 cards to play Mentor at EE and not Dredge (I haven't found a suitable answer yet either).