Frantic Search and Perilous Research

[Guli]

Added and modified 18/7/2011:

After a lot of discussion, eventually I decided to drop Frantic Search as an engine for Fish. Thanks to the input and criticism, I decided to go for Edric as the draw engine. It worked out very well. Here is the latest list after the brainstorming: (you can still read through the thread to see the process)

Bant Fish 2011

//Lands and Artifact acceleration (25)
5 Flooded Strand, Windswept Heath
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
3 Island, Plains, Forest
1 Savannah
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Strip Mine, Wasteland
4 Aether Vial

//Early free disruption (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void

// Bomb (2)
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

//Creature base (25)
3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Waterfront Bouncer

4 Phantasmal Image
4 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Phyrexian Revoker

//Sideboard (15)
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Envelop
2 Nature's Claim
3 Kataki, War's Wage


I have been toying around with the idea of having a free Bazaar effect in my Fish decks. Free means in this case literally free cost if it is unchecked and you have 3 lands. Also you do not have to waste a land drop, for example if you would play with the actual bazaar. I have been talking about this to a couple of fellow TMD'ers and played some games on Cockatrice with the inclusion of this blue recycle engine.

I  am truly convinced this is the way we should build   based fish.

Frantic Search means, for me, that you can get away playing with cards that are redundant in multiple, or just impossible like Gaddock Teeg. Also cards that represent a totally opposite strategy can be present, hence accessed, in the same deck. Every card is recyclable. I feel Vial is so powerful and important against Shop that I can't just dismiss it in this meta. I also feel Vial is a bad top deck, you usually need only one in play @2, and Vial doesn't work under a Rod. Frantic and Perilous can fix this problem. While Null Rod does work whatever the situation is, you also don't need multiples and you can dig for a second lock piece with Frantic and/or Perilous while discarding/saccing multiples. Also moxes (with Rod in play) or extra land/mox mana can be pitched or sacked.

I also want to play a white mana source turn 1 that is resilient against strip mine. Flagstone also works nicely with Perilious Research. Cute tech.



I have not experimented with fancy stuff yet. For example cards like Circular Logic or Ancient Grudge. I just made a solid tempo deck with those blue recyclers. Here is the list I created to test out my theory.

// Lands
    1 Strip Mine
    3 Tundra
    3 Tropical Island
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Windswept Heath
    3 Flagstones of Trokair
    1 Island
    1 Plains

// Creatures
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Qasali Pridemage
    4 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Meddling Mage
    2 Phyrexian Metamorph

// Instants & Sorcery

    3 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Perilous Research
    3 Frantic Search
    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    3 Spell Pierce

// Artifacts
    3 Null Rod
    3 AEther Vial

    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Wasteland
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity

I am sure this list is not the perfect home for Frantic Search (and/or Perilous Research). But that is not the topic anyway. I would love to see a good brainstorm and debate about these cards and how they could find a home in Aggro Control with  .

[serracollector]

Since you play both search and perilous wouldn't fitting a Riftstone Portal or 2 in the deck help the mana base?  Or has the flagstones been enough?  The fact they can't find trops, needed for your goyfs, teegs, and pridemages (besided vial ofc), hasn't been an issue?

Also noxious revival would seem great in here since you can just return w/e you sacced/discarded, if needed again.

[Wagner]

With 12 creatures costing green, and 8 of them being GW, I see no reason no to run a single Savannah. You can get it via Flagstone.

[Guli]

That is a valid remark on the deck list. However it is not really on topic. This is not a deck discussion thread.

[desolutionist]

I've been playing against Guli on Cockatrice.  The Frantice Search engine is pretty good in the Fish deck (I would think)  Though it needs some kind of graveyard recursion to generate advantage with it

[Ten-Ten]

I've been playing against Guli on Cockatrice.  The Frantice Search engine is pretty good in the Fish deck (I would think)  Though it needs some kind of graveyard recursion to generate advantage with it

how about Noxious revival, like mentioned before, alongside Nostalgic dreams?

Nostalgic Dreams also allows you to cycle an additional card after Frantic searching and getting that frantic search back to do it again.

Also, Noxious revival would seem great in here since you can just return w/e you sacced/discarded, if needed again.

and it's free.

[Wagner]

But... 2 Frantic search + Nostalgic dream is -3 card advantage. This is a fish deck, why would you want to dig so much, you don't have ridiculous bombs.

Same goes for Noxious revival. I think it's fine to use some, but I'm not sure what all the digging is for.

Also, wouldn't Careful Study be playable instead of Frantic Search? FS can only be cast turn 3 and up, cannot help you dig for lands if you are short. Yes Study will cost mana, but I think this deck can affort it. A countered Frantic also means you pretty much lose your entire turn.

[Ten-Ten]

But... 2 Frantic search + Nostalgic dream is -3 card advantage. This is a fish deck, why would you want to dig so much, you don't have ridiculous bombs.
Same goes for Noxious revival. I think it's fine to use some, but I'm not sure what all the digging is for.

Also, wouldn't Careful Study be playable instead of Frantic Search? FS can only be cast turn 3 and up, cannot help you dig for lands if you are short. Yes Study will cost mana, but I think this deck can affort it. A countered Frantic also means you pretty much lose your entire turn.

I am sure this list is not the perfect home for Frantic Search (and/or Perilous Research). But that is not the topic anyway. I would love to see a good brainstorm and debate about these cards and how they could find a home in Aggro Control with .

This engine can be mana hungry, I agree, though might be useful with the tool-box approach in some fish builds. Especially if you plan on going several turns into the late game, I would think.

[Joblin Velder]

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around running conflicting strategies in the same deck and trying to fix that problem with card disadvantage.

[Guli]

You don't want to cast Frantic right away anyway. The ideal situation (based on my tests) is to save cards that you will not need and then fuel the frantic with these to get an additional pressure card in play. I think Frantic is in this fashion a much better glue for Fish decks than people realize. Also, an important notion, you can cast it with 2 lands with a mox. Your bears and cards are all 2 mana for the most part. It is tighter than you think. Usually thanks to the good quality of your hate bears and hate cards Frantic is the card that kicks in when things are getting really nasty. It usually translates into another threat being cast that otherwise would not have been possible due to the nature of fish decks, they can't really cheat the draw phase and fix hands.

Remember those situations were you draw lands and just play them. You have a board full of land and 2 or 3 lock pieces. Why would this deck need more than 4 land in play?  (arguably why even more than 3?). Gitaxian Probe, Careful Study, Bazaar all have limited effects or severe handicaps. Not deep enough, costs mana, missing a land drop. I always carefully design my decks in a way that the general game flow is not interrupted no matter how fancy or powerful new cards or additions looks. You are still opting to play your vials, teegs, meddlings, tarms, qasali, rods in this deck to establish powerful pressure. While doing so I believe it is important to give your hand a 'hand' or a 'fix' without being hampered. I think brainstorm could be in this deck though. It basically fixes hand too for just one .

When people used Bazaar to get some draw and fixing going they used it in a different fashion. A lot of other cards were brought in because bazaar does make you commit to make it work. Frantic does not have the same demand in my opinion. You lose 1 card in the process to choose from 4 cards for free. Don't forget that Tarmogoyf REALLY loves the discard, so in a way those 'dead' cards are turned into damage (growish).

I truly enjoyed being able to play the vial game in G1 and then suddenly become the mana denial ROD player G2. This is very confusing for the opponent and it steals games. Without a card like Frantic this would simply not be possible. Another thing, the main deck strip mine, when they see me strip a land early turns, they fetch out only basics. But I don't have wastelands. What would you do, you see a fish player strip a land, you assume wastelands are under way and you try to take precautions. This of course limits the options colour-wise for them. Just 1 strip mine... What am I saying? The dual strategy can be very hard to play against and this is a strategic value you can benefit from.

Ok, recap on the past weeks. I have not been entirely satisfied with Spell Pierce. Sometimes it is a key card to have, but sometimes it just does absolutely nothing. Sure you can discard it to Frantic when it loses power towards mid game but still I don't want to use that argument to add cards to certain slots. I am not adding Gaddock teeg 4x because I run Frantic, I add Gaddock because he stops Gush, Jace, Force, several win cons... The fact that he is legendary, that has something to do with Frantic, sure. If Frantic is going to be 4x in the deck and you want some additional ways to abuse it, the slots that can be used to do this should most likely be the slots Spell Pierce occupies.

I am also thinking about running additional clones because they are simply amazing with Qasali, Meddling and Tarm. I also think the new clone might be worth considering because a lot of people run artifact destruction and metamoprh suffers from it. To think about it, what targets a creature without removing or bouncing it? Most of the time you are copying Golems or your Qasali and you can, when Qasali is cloned, respond to the trigger of 'sac this when its targeted' by sacrificing it to kill an artifact. I also had many occasions were my vial at 2 would have liked this guy better than the Metamorph:



It is strong and necessary though, whether you run Metamorph or the cute guy above, to run clones in Fish with  . (Golems, Dark Confidant, to kill Legendaries, Welders, Meddling Mage, Tarms, Qasali Prides, Tinker bots, ...) I REALLY liked the metamorphs yes!

I can imagine situations were you can respond with Perilous Research to the sac trigger of Phantasmal Image. But Perilous did seem, in the same way Pierce did, situational in this deck. It actually did stay in hand for a while. I would not cut it but 3x seem too much. 4/2 splits between Frantic and Perilous seems healthy, at least that is my assessment for now. The more games are played with this engine, by more people, the better we can use the results and impressions about the cards. For now, they seem underplayed in my opinion and quickly dismissed.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around running conflicting strategies in the same deck and trying to fix that problem with card disadvantage.

Card disadvantage is relative. You are making tons of card advantage with cards like Rod and Teeg. Fish is not Blue Control/Combo. It does not matter if you have a lot of cards in your hand, you want your disruption pieces on the board. That process in your head, that is called thinking. Now produce and give us idea's baby

[nineisnoone]

Joblin has the right idea. You are basically using suboptimal plays to support suboptimal card choices. Frantic to draw is a weak play and having useless multiples is poor design. It's not the worst thing ever, but it's nothing new and it's not really worth building a deck around. I'd rather intuition loam bazaar strip. Which sets up card average and a bunch of other good stuff.

Also frantic is not a good fish card. I do think perilous has some legs to it though.I once dreamt of an affinity-fish hybrid deck that used it.

[Guli]

Joblin has the right idea. You are basically using suboptimal plays to support suboptimal card choices. Frantic to draw is a weak play and having useless multiples is poor design. It's not the worst thing ever, but it's nothing new and it's not really worth building a deck around. I'd rather intuition loam bazaar strip. Which sets up card average and a bunch of other good stuff.

Also frantic is not a good fish card. I do think perilous has some legs to it though.I once dreamt of an affinity-fish hybrid deck that used it.

My testing sessions say otherwise. Why should I take your theoretical assumption over my in game observations and experience overall? It is not about card advantage. You suggestion Bazaar in fish is truly a sign that you have no idea how to play fish in the current meta. Joblin is just being dismissive, I didn't see a real argument. What is it that makes Frantic a poor play? Many times it discards my excess lands and finds me second lock pieces or answers.

That is the reason I am now testing Horizon Canopy alongside Frantic Search instead of Perilous/Flagstone. Because I think Frantic and Horizon opt for the same strategy, to replace lands (more general cards) you don't need to get that 1 additional threat. So it increases threat density. What is the cost? You lose 1 card in the process but you are able to cast something like Null Rod and shut down several cards. You guys are not seriously into this discussion. I wonder how long you have thought about the card or how many games you actually tried it out in a similar list that I posted above as an example. The in game experience is priceless and supports my idea's. I am also aware that my in game observations can cause bias and influence me, however I carefully reflect and analyse my play mistakes and the game itself every single game.

I have had this idea of 'Recycle' in Fish for a long long time, it is something I missed in my designs. I would happily sacrifice 1 card disadvantage to achieve this effect for free. You have about 24 mana sources in the deck. I consider seeing more than 4 of these cards during a game as dead draws. But you can't lower that slot count because then you risk being mana screwed. Why would replacing redundant cards at the cost of 1 card (not even mana) be a bad thing in Fish? I believe this is exactly what Fish needs!

How does Vial/Rod fit in this context? Vial is just a great turn 1 play. Beyond turn 1 you don't really want to play it any more unless you are facing spheres, magus effects, a heavy counter wall, chalice, ... Null Rod is powerful card advantage and should be in a Fish deck. I think right now Gaddock Teeg and Null Rod are the most powerful threats against Blue decks. Combined with 8 Meddling mage (with Phantasmal Images) you can quickly seal the deal. These cards with Qasali Pridemage and Tarmogoyf offer a super strong creature base and disruption package. I also don't see any problem with casting Null Rod after you have vialed in a couple of creatures. When you are on the beatdown, Vial has done it job. Shutting down Vial with Null Rod means you are shutting down 2 mana (mana wise, of course), however it is just 1 card and if you are shutting down 3 artifact mana on the opposite side of the board, or Time Vault, Key, Top, or Forgemaster/Hellkite, or Equipments, losing the vial at that time seems less important. Without access to Null Rod at those critical moments, what are you going to do? Why would you deny yourself a card like Null Rod just because you run Vial?

[LordHomerCat]

"Careful study costs too much (that is, anything)."

"You play frantic search with 2 lands and a mox or 3 lands.  Then, since all your cards cost 2, you can play a bear."


But, if you have 3 mana out... why not just Careful Study -> Bear anyway?  All your moxes are even on color. 

[Joblin Velder]

Yeah. I was being dismissive.

[Guli]

Yeah. I was being dismissive.

Look, I can solve the Null Rod/Vial issue by just playing Revokers. Sure Rod is stronger as an effect but yea ok...

However I doubt that your attitude will change. You simply don't care to see a card, that I am putting in a light ,in a different context. Whatever man.. If you don't like the idea, sure, but refrain yourself from non constructive spam, it irritates me and creates a rather dismissive atmosphere. Maybe other people are more willing to share thoughts and experiences and try out new idea's?

[Joblin Velder]

I'll dismiss your atmosphere.

[hitman]

There are a couple better options for your deck that come to mind.  One, Preordain allows you to dig into needed answers/threats while not making you reliant on early fast mana to "get there".  Two, if you're playing AEther Vial, Standstill can gain a lot of value.  Maybe a mix of Preordain and Standstill would be the best for you instead of Compulsive Research and Frantic Search.  Maybe a 4/2 split or something like that.  Ponder seems playable in a Fish deck, too.  Better than all these choices is Dark Confidant.  It literally does everything you want in your deck besides attack a manabase.  It's a creature to attack with and, left unchecked, can really gain an overwhelming amount of card advantage.  Since you play such a low curve, being Fish, it would seem ideal to me to play Confidant, especially when you play Vial to get around mana issues.  

If you're having a particular issue with your deck, the idea isn't to add non-creature spells to handle the problem if possible.  You gain value when your creature double duties as damage and fills a role in your deck.  If you want to draw cards, draw them with your creatures.  If you want to destroy artifacts, destroy them with your creatures.  Obviously, you can't always do that and you have to play other spells sometimes but the idea is to get double the value out of your cards and to pick away at your opponent's resources while you, generally, gradually accumulate your own.  Halting/slowing your opponent's progress while advancing/accelerating your own is called Tempo.  Fish wins by out-tempoing their opponents, not adding cumbersome engines with significant drawbacks.  I hope this post was helpful.

[Demonic Attorney]

Guli,

For someone bandying about so many complaints of dismissiveness, you seem to be at least as guilty of that as anyone else in this thread. In response to multiple explanations, some of them fairly detailed, of flaws in your decklist, you have posted dismissive references to your own testing and requests for different feedback.

What exactly is the purpose of this thread? If you're not going to listen to the community's efforts to give you critiques, and you'll only countenance what you consider positive suggestions, why post this at all?

Also, the users posting in your thread have, in many cases, more than proven their acumen for the game. If they're all telling you there's a problem with your deck, I really suggest taking their feedback seriously instead of dismissing it as dismissive of your ideas. I know I would think about what they had to say, if I were in your position.

[Guli]

Feedback? The point of this thread was to look into Frantic Search as a free Bazaar in Fish decks than run blue. It was not to give feedback to my design skills. But I welcome them, thanks for all the tips and pointers.

Oh and submitted an actual complaint about the lack of content in some peoples posts in this thread. Be sure to address that issue as well whenever it suits you, Sir. Thanks


So the card Frantic Search, why do I strongly believe it has a place in a Fish deck? Well, Oh wait, I don't know, maybe it is because I have played more than 5000 games of Fish and concluded at some point that it would be a great way to fix some issues with redundancy and threat density?? You don't have to trust in my play skills, you don't have to take my word, I challenge you (broad sense) to try out the card for about 100 games and write down observations every time you would cast Frantic with it's effects on that specific game. Go ahead, do it...

What are you doing here anyway by moving the thread to the creative deck section? I am putting my free time into some new idea's and use this forum as a platform to facilitate discussion, innovation and learning chances. I am not your kid that you are trying to sanction mate. You should be pleased that I am generating some activity on your boards. If you really don't want my presence or input, they just ban me and get over it. Otherwise, stop trying to tell me something and actually look into the idea's I am trying to deliver at a community.



On topic:
Don't forget that Frantic was restricted for a while and after it's unrestriction, who really tried out the card in Fish anyway? If any of the people who were so eager to dismiss the card actually tested the card or any other people who are reading this thread for that matter, please go ahead and share your results and conclusions.

So what is the problem with Frantic Search?

- I have heard card disadvantage:
This one is not real feedback because it is very obvious if you read the card. However, in a way this is not a true statement. Mana is also an important resource and the loss of 1 card (Frantic itself in this case) can be compensated by the fact that you have 3 mana open again and you have drawn into additional threats/answers. Not to mention that I haven't even tested out things that can work well with discard. That would be the next step, in a concrete list. So the card disadvantage Frantic creates can be turned into card advantage with things like Crucible, Madness, Flashback, ...)

- It can be countered and then you lose your turn:
This is very true, cards we play can be countered.

- It costs 3 mana.
Yes it does. It is also the post expensive spell in the deck, which is even not true because when resolving it is the cheapest card in the deck.

- There are cards that do what you want better:
No there aren't. I don't know any cards that can fix my hand like the way frantic is doing for free. The card is unique. All the so called 'better' alternatives are no were close to Frantic, except maybe Careful Study (which I am testing main deck now to see how it goes).

[TheWhiteDragon]

Well...I will just advocate for careful study here.  It does what frantic is trying to do, but much faster.  Noting that it costs 3 IS relevant, even if it costs 0 after resolution.  If you need that relic warder on turn 2 or true believer to block an oath, then the turn 1 study, turn 2 disruptive fish can make a difference.  Waiting until turn 3 can be too late.  It's not always that dire, but it can be an issue.  Also, when you are casting off moxen, the frantic isn't giving you such a great bonus.

Card disadvantage is an issue - despite your ways to compensate that.  Mana is nice to have, but does not compensate for cards in hand.  I'd prefer a 2 mana draw 2 rather than a "free mana" draw 3, pitch 2 in any deck that doesn't specifically have cards it WANTS to pitch.  In my Oath of Hermit Druids (on a thread), I WANT to pitch my "shuffle back" creatures or dragon breaths.  I know a hand with a dead card and a careful study is a solid turn 1 play.  I can't always frantic search until turn 2 or more, and often then I am using at least 1 mox mana, so it "costs" at least as much as careful study does in the end.  i've tested frantic extensively too.  It's not a BAD card....it's just not a broken engine like thirst for knowledge tends to be.  

You said "it's true, cards we play can be countered"...I think you missed the point.  If I cast careful study and it gets countered, I still have 2 mana to drop a bear.  If I cast frantic and it gets countered, I can't cast my bear - and the -2 damage from that extra swing can sometimes mean the game.  It is relevant.

"It costs 3 mana" again, relevant.  When I have tundra and savannah, I can cast every bear in my deck.  When I have careful study, I can filter into better bears or more mana.  When I have frantic search, I can...stare at its beautiful artwork in my hand?  A deck that has as low a mana curve as fish, often sits on 2 mana for quite a while.  I often open with forest and cast noble heirarch, and that is my mana base for the next 2-3 turns.  Frantic costing me 0 on resolution does me little good when I only have 2 mana on the board.

"There are no better cards" - as you and I both mentioned, careful study.  In a deck with rods, vials, and moxen - thirst.  In a deck with a way to abuse discard like madness - bazaar.  Also See beyond is cheaper.  Sensei top, Ponder, Portent (this card is way underrated btw), and preordain are all way cheaper and keep you from drawing into things you don't want in the first place (so you don't need to find a way to discard crap).  Frantic search isn't bad, but it isn't the "best" as you suggest by saying there are none better.

In my own Noble Fish lists, I find Elric (and before selkie) are often just better.  Drawing 3 cards for free and discarding 0 was better than drawing 3 and pitching 2 for 3 mana (or even 0 mana) and just ignoring the dead cards in hand...or pitch them when I hit 8+ cards.

Also, if you didn't want critiques on your decklist and just a discussion about frantic search, then you probably should have just mentioned the card sans decklist and said what the card has done in your testing.

But - if you just want praise and not constructive criticism, then:

"All hail Guli - the innovative discoverer of the best card ever that we all missed in our blind ignorance of the game.  Frantic Search is the best fish engine ever!!!"

[Wagner]

"All hail Guli - the innovative discoverer of the best card ever that we all missed in our blind ignorance of the game.  Frantic Search is the best fish engine ever!!!"

Yeah, this pretty much sums up my reaction too. We gave you valid points, and you dismissed everything time and again saying that you are right in a very arrogant way, especially in your last post.

So, yeah, you were right all along, we were foolish to offer any other opinion. I really don't see the point of this tread either as you obviously are not looking for any outside input.

[Guli]

Yes all hail me!

And yes in the decks I design, which have a higher creature count than usual Fish, Frantic Search does become a good draw engine. That being said, I 'discovered' another card that is actually a better idea than running Null Rod/Aether Vial in the same deck. With the same concept in mind, I am now trying Force of Will and Gaddock Teeg alongside Frantic Search:

Teeg hoses Force
Force pitches to Frantic
Frantic pitches to Force
Teeg doesn't stop Frantic
Teeg pitches to Frantic

Since this thread is moved to the deck section ( thanks Demonic admin :p ), which wasn't a bad idea because the discussion was not really going into depth anyway and things were being repeated, I think we can work more towards a tuned list. While I was testing I felt I needed to add a 1 drop, preferably one that takes some weight of the back of Meddling Mage and Phantasmal Image by addressing Tinker. I ran Goldmeadow Harrier but with Force in the most recent list I changed that to Stormscape Apprentice.

Another card that supports and fills in gabs is Phyrexian Revoker. Your hands get more interesting with Revoker/Meddling. There is a nice synergy between these guys and with Phantasmal Image the options are widely opened when it comes to shutting down cards. It becomes hard to finish a deck like this with the Tinker plan, but the deck also runs Qasali and Revoker to fight off the TV win condition. Storming can also be hard if things like Teeg and Meddling are around. Oath needs to come down quickly because of Qasali/Phantasmal and Meddling Mages.

The advantage that Vintage Wizards has over this deck would be Dark Confidant. This has been mentioned, and with good right, in this thread. But I believe Standstill could be a good way to generate some card advantage. So I apologize for being dismissive when this card was suggested. It works very well with vial but especially with a lot of bears and/or Force of Will.

18 Lands
4x Flooded Strand
2x Windswept Heath
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Plains
3x Tundra
2x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
3x Horizon Canopy

8 Artifacts
4x Aether Vial
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire

22 Creatures
4x Gaddock Teeg
4x Meddling Mage
4x Phantasmal Image
4x Stormscape Apprentice
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Phyrexian Revoker

12 Other Stuff
1x Ancestral Recall
2x Standstill ---> Edric, Spymaster
1x Time Walk
4x Force of Will
4x Frantic Search

SB:
2x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Leonin Relic Warder
1x Echoing Truth
1x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Dauntless Escort
4x Tormods Crypt

Recal/Standstil/Frantic/Horizon Canopy should give the deck good means of drawing into cards. The artifact acceleration and vial plus the basic lands should hold ground versus Workshop. Force of Will should help too in nailing at least one key threat, also Teeg isn't good against Shop so he and will be sided out for kataki/hurkyl's. You can also switch 2 relic warders for a stormscape and a revoker depending on the version of stax.

I believe this to be a good start list for Frantic Fish.

Greets,
Guli

[TheWhiteDragon]

How exactly is frantic better than Elric? For that matter, how is standstill when you have no manlands?  How is drawing 3 and pitching 2 for "free" better than just flat out drawing 3 every turn while dealing +2 damage?  How is frantic better than careful study that can be played on 1 mana, especially early game when you want to dig?  How is frantic better than thirst that can actually net you card advantage after pitching your extra artifact junk?

It appears that this is not really a thread for any constructive purposes.  I wrote a long post refuting all the points you think make frantic great and rather than address any of them, you just grabbed on to the one sarcastic comment and crowned yourself with it.  Then continued to tote the awesomeness of frantic search as if everyone had agreed with you.

It seems you just found a pet card and want to make a deck around it and chalk off anyone's objections...so then why post at all if you are going to ignore all criticisms and just respond with "you are wrong, it is awesome."  Perhaps it is disheartening that nobody sees the reason for your zeal about the card, but there's reason for the skepticism.  Let me know how good that frantic does you when you sit on 2 mana....or how it is better than study when you cast it off mox mana.

[Guli]

Stop addressing me on a personal level. I am taking the comments seriously in my testings, don't think otherwise.

I posted a deck featuring Edric, I believe Edric is not a card that you can just throw in any deck. It needs to connect and that is not an easy thing to do without evasion. Creatures like Thada, Clique, Trygin and Sower are more fitted as a creature base. Without evasion you would rely on your Stormscape's a lot when you want Edric to connect. Again, Edric is a sorcery speed investment.

That being said, having Edric instead of the Standstill does seem excellent feedback. I will try it thanks for the suggestions.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think you are reading Edric wrong...he does not need to connect.  ANY of your creatures need to connect.  Edric can just sit back and watch your trygons and such go  to town.  You even draw off him the turn you cast him and swing with your other army.  If you think it's hard to connect with ANY non-evasive creature, then perhaps fish is a bad call in that meta....but vs a field of tezz, gush, storm, etc., I am sure you can get a few guys to hit each turn.  If you can't deal attack damage with fish, then something else is going entirely wrong.

My main point is that instead of looking for a way to "filter" dead cards, find a way to draw just as many and ignore the dead cards in hand.  If you cast ancestral or frantic, you are still drawing 3...the pitching 2 isn't really benefiting you.  Just play cards that draw a bunch.  Edric fits that bill.  With apprentices that can tap the lodestone or whatever "big" blocker, you'ld be drawing 2+ a turn easily.

[Guli]

I think you are reading Edric wrong...he does not need to connect.  ANY of your creatures need to connect.  Edric can just sit back and watch your trygons and such go  to town.  You even draw off him the turn you cast him and swing with your other army.  If you think it's hard to connect with ANY non-evasive creature, then perhaps fish is a bad call in that meta....but vs a field of tezz, gush, storm, etc., I am sure you can get a few guys to hit each turn.  If you can't deal attack damage with fish, then something else is going entirely wrong.

My main point is that instead of looking for a way to "filter" dead cards, find a way to draw just as many and ignore the dead cards in hand.  If you cast ancestral or frantic, you are still drawing 3...the pitching 2 isn't really benefiting you.  Just play cards that draw a bunch.  Edric fits that bill.  With apprentices that can tap the lodestone or whatever "big" blocker, you'ld be drawing 2+ a turn easily.

Why not run both? I don't see how Frantic competes for the slots Edric would occupy. Edric, a draw engine, would be a great card to compensate for the 1 card loss created by Frantic, a recycle engine. I think Frantic/Edric would work nicely alongside. It is not just dead cards you replace, and besides there are no real dead cards in the deck I can see, it is replacing that Revoker for a Phantasmal Image or just the opposite depending on the board. Can't you see that Frantic is glue and allows you to play with the concept: "Why not play both?"

[President Skroob]

Frantic Search helps you cover up poor deckbuilding because you can discard the conflicts.

[hitman]

How many cards do you plan on devoting to Edric/Frantic Search?  There's a great opportunity cost to running those cards over other cards that actually do what you need to win.  If you have lots of Edrics and Frantic Search, how are you going to win before you get comboed out?

[Guli]

Frantic Search helps you cover up poor deckbuilding because you can discard the conflicts.

No Frantic enables me to Force of Will turn 1 while at the same time run Gaddock Teeg. Rod/Mox conflict is acceptable and Force/Teeg isn't.. I get it. Keep thinking this way.

So now we have a deck that runs Vial with a strong creature base with Force of Will backup and a good draw engine with Edric that is supported by Stormscape Aprpentice to connect. When it connects the game is most likely over. The deck also has the ability to replace redundant, dead, or irrelevant cards in hand with Frantic Search in the mix of all the vialing, forcing, disrupting.

How many cards do you plan on devoting to Edric/Frantic Search?  There's a great opportunity cost to running those cards over other cards that actually do what you need to win.  If you have lots of Edrics and Frantic Search, how are you going to win before you get comboed out?

I would dedicate 6-7 slots in total for both cards. 4/2 Split sounds a good way to start testing. Maybe it can become 3/3 too. What are your thoughts about it?


There might be room for cards like Daze, Mental Misstep (more free counters with Vial) and in the Sideboard Mindbreak Trap. Chalice of the Void might also be worth for consideration since it will, on the play, be a nice disruption. Again, there is a conflict with Teeg, but fact is yo don't always get to cast Teeg or keep Teeg on the board. Plus there is the wonderfull card Frantic to cover up this poor deckbuilding choice of me...

[TheWhiteDragon]

Try 3 Edric/3 careful study.  Perhaps even a jace which can remove tinkerbots.