Frantic Search and Perilous Research

[Guli]

Try 3 Edric/3 careful study.  Perhaps even a jace which can remove tinkerbots.  

Sounds good. I don't know how Study will turn out though. I have only tested it in a small number of games. It is not a card you want to cast turn 1. The recycling usually happens after you have established some board pressure.

I have noticed that this deck is very prepared against Tinker with Stormscape/Phantasmal. It is nice to copy and tap the Blightsteel and then swing with your copy for lethal.

I have also seen how the creature's role turned out to be:

Teeg: when you cast this you have suddenly a lot of breathing room. You know they can't cast any planewalkers for the time being. And this gives you a lot of control and makes all your other cards stronger when they come down.

Qasali: when he is up, you know you can't die to TV. He adds to the clock. But I don't know, A vial@2 and Revoker in hand also stops TV. So he is useful against the Blue Matchup but not superb. Against Oath and Workshop he plays a similar role like Gaddock Teeg does against blue. And he is a copy target in those match ups and a very good one. Correct me if I am wrong but Phantasmals 'downside' is a trigger and you can sac in response, to kill an artifact/enchantment.

Stormscape Apprentice: this guy is to cut off the Tinker plan and to control aggro.

Meddling Mage: incredibly strong with phantasmal image. highly flexible. takes up different roles like protecting your other bears or stopping win cons or shutting down their only win route.

Phantasmal Image: also highly flexible but depending on what you have cast. also shuts down Tinker plan and copy high level creatures like Confidant and Welder. usually you keep this in hand and try to play out meddling/revoker/qasali first to have more options. You also never know when Tinker might hit.

Phyrexian Revoker: usually cuts off TV and Jace/Tezz. But in a different way Teeg or Qasali does. And this is its strength. Can be held in hand and vialed in response to every card that has an important activation. It is nice to hit mana of Noble Fish and Metalworker Shop. Against Hellkite you better have him around. Against Null Rod Shop he isn't super duper. I don't think shutting down a mox is that relevant, because this deck doesn't play mana denial. But sometimes you can shut down a sol ring or vault early on and the follow up with phantasmal to name other stuff.

Teeg: x4
Meddling Mage: x4
Phantasmal: x4

Qasali: x3
Revoker: x3
Stormscape: x3

If supported well this creature base can deal with just about anything. Still I would love to have another 1 drop and we have been talking about the inclusion of Edric as a draw engine. I believe this would be good since you do need an engine. Vintage Wizards has Dark Confidant like I mentioned before, this deck can have Edric. ( And Confidant if you copy it :p )

Having Force of Will matters, we all know that. And I think with all the blue and means to discard force if you got a teeg online, the inclusion of fow is justified.

I have seen Vial lists run with 17 lands and this WITH 5 strips. They also run 4 artifact mana and 4 Vial. Is this because of Dark Confidant? It still seems a very low land count. You don't always get the vial in your first 7. I am bringing this up because maybe I can cut a land too and make room for the one drop. I feel this deck really could use Wild Nacatl. How would Isamaru turn out in this creature base?

Something like this:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Phantasmal Image

3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stormscape Apprentice
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda

3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest

4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Careful Study

4 AEther Vial
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Savannah
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

SB: 2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain (Dredge, aggro)
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge, Ritual/Storm)
SB: 3 Envelop (Perish, Massacre, Pyroclasm, Tinker, Ywill, ...)
SB: 3 Leonin Relic-Warder (Oath, Shop,Equip)
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage (Shop)

[Stormanimagus]

Frantic Search helps you cover up poor deckbuilding because you can discard the conflicts.

No Frantic enables me to Force of Will turn 1 while at the same time run Gaddock Teeg. Rod/Mox conflict is acceptable and Force/Teeg isn't.. I get it. Keep thinking this way.

Frantic does not enable you to Force of Will on turn 1 as it costs you either 3 mana (in moxen + land) or 3 land. The earliest you'll be able to Frantic Search is turn 2 realistically.

How many cards do you plan on devoting to Edric/Frantic Search?  There's a great opportunity cost to running those cards over other cards that actually do what you need to win.  If you have lots of Edrics and Frantic Search, how are you going to win before you get comboed out?

This is a great point that I think you should really take seriously Guli. You are playing a dig card usually only reserved FOR a combo deck. Fish is not a combo deck. It is one of the few decks in Vintage that still doesn't feel that way. It is an incremental advantage deck and in such a deck you need to be extremely careful about each and every card slot. General rules of thumb that I've come up with for building fish that you've broken are:

1. Limited card draw spells and if any they must be +2 CA or better.
2. No anti-synergies (Gaddock + FoW, Aether + Rod etc.)

There are a couple more that I am forgetting off the top of my head, but even those 2 being broken is a problem unless you have a very good reason to do so. You have not made a compelling argument that this deck has a very good reason to do so.

Why does Fish NOT need dig spells you ask? Well, the overall power of 1 single card in Fish is less than the potential overall power of a card like Tinker or Yawg. Will or even Lodestone Golem so having a tool for finding 1 card pales in comparison to simply having a higher density of cards that answer those powerful cards. I hope this makes sense and doesn't incite another sh#*T storm of argument on this thread, but it really is a simple principle of good fish design. Thanks,

-Storm

[Guli]

Yes, that is the main question. Does Fish need to dig and replace cards in the first place. Wouldn't it be better to simply have another good threat/card instead of playing a glue card like Frantic or Study.

Noble Fish does not need it, because it doesn't run any redundant cards. At all times almost every card in the deck can and will be useful. But it will never be able to run Gaddock Teeg or Aether Vial, that is the cost it pays. We could argue that seeing Null Rod in multiples is also a flaw in the deck design. However the power/effect of the card does make it worthwhile to run multiples and risk redundancy.

Selden 23.04.2011 Top 8:
7th Corey Mann
"Not Quite Noble Fish"

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Annul
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
1 Time Walk
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Trygon Predator
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Swords to Plowshares

Lands (19):
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 Strip Mine
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland
SB:
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Sower of Temptation

A deck that actually does run Gaddock Teeg doesn't need to (and can't) run the amount of counter package that Noble Fish does. I have been thinking about the arguments presented. One the one hand I agree, I would rather play another bear or something relevant than use that time and opportunity to cast a glue/dig spell. I can see pros and cons for both. But say I could cast something like Waterfront Bouncer, an answer to Tinker and pretty good against aggro. Wouldn't the utility of this creature have a similar 'recycling' effect but also DO something at the same time? Would this be a more acceptable path? If so, what creatures are there to use cards like Force of Will and Null Rod as pitch to put pressure on the opponent? I ask this because I would really like to run Force of Will even if I run Gaddock Teeg.

[Stormanimagus]

Yes, that is the main question. Does Fish need to dig and replace cards in the first place. Wouldn't it be better to simply have another good threat/card instead of playing a glue card like Frantic or Study.

Noble Fish does not need it, because it doesn't run any redundant cards. At all times almost every card in the deck can and will be useful. But it will never be able to run Gaddock Teeg or Aether Vial, that is the cost it pays. We could argue that seeing Null Rod in multiples is also a flaw in the deck design. However the power/effect of the card does make it worthwhile to run multiples and risk redundancy.

Selden 23.04.2011 Top 8:
7th Corey Mann
"Not Quite Noble Fish"

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Annul
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
1 Time Walk
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Trygon Predator
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Swords to Plowshares

Lands (19):
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 Strip Mine
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland
SB:
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Sower of Temptation

A deck that actually does run Gaddock Teeg doesn't need to (and can't) run the amount of counter package that Noble Fish does. I have been thinking about the arguments presented. One the one hand I agree, I would rather play another bear or something relevant than use that time and opportunity to cast a glue/dig spell. I can see pros and cons for both. But say I could cast something like Waterfront Bouncer, an answer to Tinker and pretty good against aggro. Wouldn't the utility of this creature have a similar 'recycling' effect but also DO something at the same time? Would this be a more acceptable path? If so, what creatures are there to use cards like Force of Will and Null Rod as pitch to put pressure on the opponent? I ask this because I would really like to run Force of Will even if I run Gaddock Teeg.

First off, Noble Fish is NOT redundant? are you kidding me? It has x8 counters that are effectively free 90% of the time and it has nothing but bears and goyfs otherwise. If anything, a deck with Frantic Search and Aether Vial is lacking in redundancy. Noble Fish is a mana denial and counter everything you play style fish deck and it is the best at achieving that objective of any fish deck I know.

Secondly, I really do not think that Gaddock Teeg works in a deck with FoW. Stripping yourself of FoW post Teeg can be really bad if your opponent plays around Teeg (and that is not too hard). I really don't see why you think Teeg is SOOOO powerful. He's good when he's good, but then ALL Fish cards are so that goes without saying.

Next point. Yes you could argue that running 1 Null Rod is correct. You'd be wrong. You see Null Rod's 2-3-4 are NOT dead even after the first has resolved because Null Rod is target numero uno for every deck in the format to remove except Fish and Dredge. That means that 80% of the decks you face will prioritize removing the rod over just about anything else you play. That's why you run 4. You want it early and you want it to stick.

Next point. Why don't we run Waterfront bouncer? Two words. Card. . . Disadvantage. Discarding a card means you may not have sufficient cards in hand to pitch to FoW or simply out-card your opponent.

Most of my points are pointing toward a larger issue with your understanding of Vintage Guli. You seem to see cause and effect with cards, but then fail to see when you'll simply be overwhelmed by superior Card Advantage or by your own Card Disadvantage. In Vintage the principle of Card Advantage matters perhaps more than in any other format. When you have cards that win the game on their own you better be prepared to counter them or play yours first. Or you better have the tools in the toolbox to nullify them. Fish is already a risky deck choice when you have options that include Tinker-->Bot, Jace, Yawg-Tendrils, Bazaar-Zombies, Lodestone-->Robots etc. Fish is already trying to win in a gun fight with a knife. Why strip it of the one power it has (Overwhelming an opponent with superior CA and threat density) by adding chaff like Frantic Search?

If I was a better writer I could maybe express these points better, but I think that the underlying sentiment is clear. You need to do a 180 in the way you think about Vintage Guli and really go back to the basics. I have often come up with crazy deck ideas like the one you proposed, but I "get off it" pretty quick when I realize that they will not be contenders. A corner case of 1 deck performing well once does not make it a contender by the way. A deck needs to prove itself over time. This is one reason that I still don't consider Kuldotha Forgemaster truly viable. Sure it's performed, but how often? What sorts of tournaments? I like your vigor and verve for Vintage Guli, but I think you'll get much more bang for your buck in the forums if you let ideas go a bit more easily and exercise patience in waiting for wizards to print something that truly helps a given archetype. Don't grasp at straws. They simply aren't there right now.

-Storm

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think fish CAN be viable, but I do agree that there are flaws in the logic.  Drawing cards is better than card filter.  Just ignore what is dead in hand.  FoW. Is also not entirely necessary.  You have a ton of answers.  If you fear tinker, use stormscape or better yet relic warder.  I also think you should use nobles.  They help your clock and speed spells like edric as well as smoothing your 3 color mana base.  Good bears like pridemage, relic-warder, gaddock, apprentice, etc. Already hose a ton.  Don't counter bombs, answwer them-often proactively.  Some bombs you just won't be able to answer anyway, but that's any magic deck.

[Guli]

With not running redundant cards I mean something positive. Am I missing the meaning of the word 'redundant'? Doesn't it mean 'duplication of effects or cards'? Not that important, what I mean is that Noble Fish has cards that will work during the entire course of the game and that this is good.

I didn't say you should run less than 3 Rod and it is fine. You want to play 4, also fine!

What I mean is in the lines of this pile

5 Flooded Strand, Windswept Heath
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
3 Island, Plains, Forest
1 Savannah
4 Strip Mine, Wasteland
4 AEther Vial
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4 Meddling Mage
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Phyrexian Revoker

8 slots:
one drops (Stormscape (now main deck), lions, cursecatcher?, ...)
cards that would benefit from discarding (Bouncer?, Devout Witness?, Trickster Mage?, Vengevine?, ...)
other idea's (Chalice of the Void?, Leylines?, Frantic Search, Careful Study, ...)

I am trying
3x Icatian Javelineers
3x Stormscape Apprentice
2x Waterfront Bouncer

SB: 2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Envelop
SB: 3 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage

[MackTheTemp]

Hey guli- I do think that the frantic search engine for recycling duplicates makes a ton of sense in this hate filled deck. That said, Isamaru seems pretty terrible given that he he's a fairly weak clock and nothing more.

Also, null rod - I don't see how you'd run less than 4 with it being so central to so many MU.
Wasteland is interesting - but it's inclusion seems to really point towards choosing careful study over frantic search. I love the frantic search effect, but you don't have any instant effects that you will want to run to keep mana open for. It's also much stronger in an opening grip that has 1 blue mana source.

I also don't understand why envelop is in the board. What's that for?

[Guli]

Null Rod is a great card but so is Vial. And according to everybody they can't be run in the same deck. Vial is playable against both Blue as Shop. But Null Rod is not that great versus Shop. So I prefer Aether Vial in this meta.

I also don't understand why envelop is in the board. What's that for?

Good question, I have been looking for answers against mass removal like Pyroclasm and Perish. Massacre and Virtue's Ruin are also the same threat type. I noticed these cards have 1 thing in common and that is that they are all sorceries. If I have a Teeg beating and they cast something like Perish, then they can't rely on Force of Will backup to counter my Envelop. They will need to have Spell Pierce and Mana drain to support the mass removal. One   is the cheapest you can get to be honest. I tried other things too like Dauntless Escort but that just doesn't cut it. Envelop is also a counter to Tinker and Yawg Will. It can also be used to stop Thoughtseize and Duress. I consider it a good SB card to help me out against Control decks that want to sweep my board. Meddling Mage can name Spell Pierce and/or Mana Drain to support Teeg/Envelop. There are some bonus cards that Envelop stops like Dread Return, Ponder, Merchant scroll, Demonic Tutor and so on.

If you have a better solution to cards like Perish and Clasm, please do tell me.

Another way to 'replace' a card like Force of Will when teeg resolves is Vendilion Clique. It is however a 3 drop but the card seems to fit well. 2X copies would be nice.

I am pretty much settled with:

//Lands and Artifact acceleration (25)
5 Flooded Strand, Windswept Heath
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
3 Island, Plains, Forest
1 Savannah
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Strip Mine, Wasteland
4 Aether Vial

//Early free disruption (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void

// Bomb (2)
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

//Creature base (25)
3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Waterfront Bouncer

4 Phantasmal Image
4 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Phyrexian Revoker

//Sideboard (15)
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Envelop
2 Nature's Claim
3 Kataki, War's Wage