[Free Article/New Podcast] SMIP #3: M12 in Vintage -- Set Review

[Smmenen]

http://mtgcast.com/?p=16248

Blurb:

Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian review M12 for Vintage and discuss listener feedback on what makes Magic fun. Contact us at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail us at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com

We review 8 cards from M12 in some detail for potential Vintage applications.  

[DubDub]

A couple of thoughts:

- One distinction between Master Thief and Trinket Mage is what happens when each gets bounced by Jace.  With Master Thief you lose the temporary advantage you gained (perhaps while forcing the Jace to use unsummon).  While with Trinket Mage you get an additional permanent advantage upon recasting him.

- Another   card that has seen some play (especially when Tera/Iona Oath was big) was Bribery, which generally has a much more beneficial effect if resolved than Jace3.0.

- Jace1.0's + ability is +2, I think it was unclear whether you were saying it was +1.

- In terms of milling Traumatize is much better than Jace3.0, both for you and/or your opponent, no?

- Library of Alexandria taps for a colorless, though it's not likely to appear in MUD, or in any deck where Buried Ruin is likely to be considered.

- Lands also likes to recur Engineered Explosives, though I don't think Buried Ruin interacts with EE very differently from OStone.

- Empty the Warrens is   .  C'mon, Steve you're always forgetting it!

I'm only 44 minutes in, so I will update with further thoughts once I get the opportunity to finish.  Great so far!

- Electrolyze doesn't kill Lodestone Golem.

- Izzet Guildmage + the Arcane Lightning bolt + the Arcane Desperate Ritual or something?  The point of that was that you could continue to copy the original spell in response to the original spell.  Chandra3.0's copy wouldn't do enough.  Not sure what the context here was....

-   creature that sees play in T1?  Uh, ...Magus of the Unseen?  You mentioned it earlier in the podcast.  There's also Riddlesmith, although that doesn't see much play now (due to Gush, I'd say).  If the activation were   I think Azure Mage would be pretty good.  I don't think it would necessarily replace Bob, but be played alongside him as a 1- or 2-of.  I also disagree with Steve only evaluating the cost to play and activate it at the same time.   for the body and a card isn't great, but you keep the ability to continue to buy cards.  You also get to hold open countermagic, and use the ability if your opponent doesn't do anything (anything relevant...).

Another break.

- To go next next level, the best time for me to play Hurkyl's Recall is in response to your Sundial of the Infinite activation!  (Edit: Kevin does mention this later, but not during their initial discussion of Fundial as an answer to Hurkyl's Recall.)

Finally finished.

- Thanks for the shoutout, that was cool.  I like Steve's framework about 'meaningful choice', which I think is a really clean way to generalize what's important both within game and in addressing a metagame.

Question of the week: what card that's new in M12 will see the most play in Eternal formats?

Vintage - Sundial of the Infinite
Legacy - Phantasmal Image
EDH/COM - Garruk3.0

[LSD25]

what makes a format fun?

i do not care too much about diversity, just as long as there are 5 or more types of decks.  not sure how to define two decks as being different.  oath and tezz have all the same cards, except take out bob for oath and change the mana base.  however, i would say that they are completely different decks, but the basic shell is blue control with combo/bomb.  i think it was jeff huang that said that yu gi oh has more diversity than vintage right now.  what i find great is that someone, david duong i think, can bring in standard boros with vintage manabase and get first in the swiss.  because vintage is in such a meta dependent bubble, slight deviations can completely wreak the format, and that is exciting.  

what really makes a format fun is the interactivity and power level of the cards.  when i first started this was not the case.  i was perfectly happy to wait 5 turns to play a sengir vampire and wait another before it could block a serra angel due to an unholy strength.  we would play for 50 minuites and lunch would end before anyone won the game.  i am much happier when there are nice short games, when both players have suprises... even going into top deck mode can be really exciting if its both people.  i think that standard suffers from a lack of interactivity for the most part, where disruption is more general than meta specific.  edh, to me, is where magic goes to die.  people end up playing 10 different versions of the same card to get the repeatability they could find by playing a regular casual deck.  cube is leaps better than edh, imo, but i would rather be deck building or playtesting with that time because i like testing out repeatability and finding appropriate responces to typical interactions.

some might say that i do not know how to enjoy the game, but truth is i can enjoy playing pauper, cube, edh, and i even play archenemy and planechase... but i prefer busted azz broken combos with force back up.  its odd that i do not enjoy legacy, and refer to it as vintage's bastard retard of a cousin, but that is because of the limited play space offered compared to the game space designed over the entire history.  i have had bad experiences with legacy players, most likey because it attracts more people and with more people comes more theives/tools and the like.  i enjoy sealed more than cube because drafting typically turns into fighting over 2 dominate colors for each block, and similar stuff happens in cube.  also, in sealed you see more cards, and thats the only reason i play sealed, is to see the new cards, in action.  its much better to play 3 sealed games with a friend over a six pack than to open a box hoping you get a decent amount of credit from the venture.

interestingly, you said there were 55 cards worthy of mention, and you covered 8.  i would think those 8 were the most likey to be vintage playable in your opinion.  however, onlly 3 of them did you guys thikn would see play.  yet, you guys thought M12 would be good for vintage.  this was the first set I did not buy since shards, and that was because i want playing at that time.  I decided not to buy because i did not see a single card that i thoght would be playable, and by boxes of new phyrexia were very disappointing.

[Stormanimagus]

I'm gonna copy and paste and e-mail I sent to Stephen and Kevin in response to the podcast with regards to printing new utility creatures that would actually have a meaningful impact on Vintage:

Hey Stephen and Kevin,

My name is Noah Smith and, though I am not playing Vintage any more, I am always interested in card design and was particularly struck by your discussion of Grand Abolisher in your podcast this week. You guys mentioned a desire to see a "utility" creature as a 2/1 (or better) at 1 CMC. You then mentioned the possibility of 0 or 1/3+ and how that would be unplayable on a utility creature, but I disagree. One of Fish's greatest weaknesses is a lack of creatures with a UNIQUE hate effect or with multiple hate effects. A card that I have mentioned in the discussion boards on TMD is the following.

Seton's Acolyte      G

Creature — Centaur Druid Shaman

Defender, Exalted

Cards in graveyards lose all abilities and cannot be cast.

                     0/3

Let me explain why I think a card like this would be good for vintage.

1. It is not good in every deck (maybe it would go into every SB but not sure)
2. Works well in a Fish deck that already exists (Noble Fish) and competes.
3. Answers the age old problem of fish: Having an answer to Storm and Dredge that doesn't require bending over backwards (Black Leyline in a non-black deck, Rav trap, stupid narrow cards like Mindbreak Trap)
4. This opens up SB and MD Space for Fish to attack Shops.
5. It is costed at G and so would be a first turn play and can also curve out nicely with Aether Vial.

I can send you some other thoughts of card design soon, but this is a good start in my opinion. This could really REALLY change things for Vintage Fish.

-Noah


Let me know what you think,

-Storm

[hitman]

Visions of Beyond might fit in an Oath deck.  I use to always play Life from the Loam and Strip Mine as an additional way to interact after I started Oathing.  There's more to Oath than just getting a fat creature into play.  There's a lot to take advantage of from dumping cards into your graveyard in Oath decks.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Good episode, guys.  Altho, I think you could have maybe talked about Doubling Chant in relation Legacy elves.  I think that may have been a little more valuable than discussing Chandra.  This episode was a little on the long side (anything over 90mins gets a little long for me), but it was still easily the most enjoyable podcast I've listed to this week, and I usually listen to about a dozen of them from MTGCast.  One of the best parts of your podcasts is that you two have really good chemistry.  You don't talk over each other, you both share the mike evenly, and you facilitate each other's arguments.  So many other podcasts have it where one person talks for a really long time, or the host is just cracking jokes or interupting guests all the time.  I really like the serious and professional tone you take with SMIP.

BTW, I'm really looking forward to your history of Vintage book, Stephen.  Take your time and do it exhaustively.  I'm sure it will be good.

Peace,

-Troy

[Smmenen]

Thanks Guys.  Spread the word on the podcast.   Tell people how easy it is to access and listen to.  My suggestion is to listen to it on a smart phone on a car ride or at home when you are doing something else.  Feedback is always appreciated.  We're getting better at the chemistry and dialogue, but we always trying to improve.

Transitioning from mostly written articles to podcast isn't easy! 

[Twaun007]

I told my chauffeur(Yangtime) to put this on the radio while he drove me to work and it was pretty interesting. My only complaint is, your voices aren't balanced properly. It seems as if Cron is talking into the microphone and you're talking away from it. There were a few moments were Yangtime had to adjust the volume.

Other than that little technicality, the podcast seem to be going well. Keep up the good work.



 


EDIT: These remind me of the old ICBM podcasts. Man, that seems like ages ago. I bet a lot of people don't even know about ICBM. 

[Smmenen]

I told my chauffeur(Yangtime) to put this on the radio while he drove me to work and it was pretty interesting. My only complaint is, your voices aren't balanced properly.

You mean, he connected your Iphone 5 into a wireless jack in your limo's rear speaker system, and let you listen to the podcast while you were reading the Times and the Journal. 

*Gasp* Are you the green hornet? It makes sense!  Jerry is Bruce Lee (Kato!)

[Twaun007]

*Gasp* Are you the green hornet? It makes sense!  Jerry is Bruce Lee (Kato!)

The secret is out!

[ReubenG]

Great podcasts, but I agree with Twaun007, your voices aren't balanced.

Question of the week: new M12 cards to see the most play in eternal formats

Vintage: Buried Ruin
Legacy: Phantasmal Image
EDH: Swiftboots

I was suprised you guys did not talk about Jace's Archivist.  Not that I think it will see much vintage play, but it is certianly playable.  I mean if Azure Mage is going to be discussed as possibly playable, Jace's Archivist should have been as well. 

[Smmenen]

Great podcasts, but I agree with Twaun007, your voices aren't balanced.

That will be fixed going forward.  Kevin leans over the Mic, practically, while I sit leisurely on a couch.  He'll just have the move the mic closer to me

[saspook]

Preordain is out because of the removal of the keyword Scrye from the base set.  It is being replaced by Bloodthrist.  Their was no great reason for Ponder coming back and this card leaving.

[Smmenen]

yeah, we realized that later.   

[MaximumCDawg]

First off, thanks for the shout out, but the "C" in the middle of my screen name is important!

To answer your question about the card in M12 that will see the most Vintage play: Ponder.  Not even close, imho.  It's a known quantity and very powerful.

If this is a degenerate answer, and you're really hunting for an answer like Sundal, Abolisher, or the new clone or something... hard to say.  All of the cards other than Ponder that seem possible in vintage also seem to shoehorn you into specific archetypes.  I actually find M12 to be one of the weakest new sets as far as Vintage goes since I came back to the game in Alara.  I'm not the authority on this subject, and I'd love to be proven wrong.  I love the concept of Sundail, and I like that Shusher basically got an upgrade into the color that really wants weenies.  Still, I can't help but feel like M12 has nothing substantial to offer.  It's the first core set in awhile where I am not buying a common/uncommon set, box, or even going to play limited.  I've be tickled pink to see a consistent new combo deck emerge, but if Arbiter and Relic Warder couldn't do it, I dont see M12 doing it.

[Smmenen]

First off, thanks for the shout out, but the "C" in the middle of my screen name is important!

To answer your question about the card in M12 that will see the most Vintage play: Ponder.  Not even close, imho.  It's a known quantity and very powerful.

Smart alec: you know we meant NEW card from M12

[evouga]

Isn't Azure Mage just worse than Jushi Apprentice? How often do you really plan to have 8 or 12 mana lying around? Or is it the extra point of power that's worth the one mana per card difference?
I'd probably even consider Enclave Cryptologist before the Mage.

Like Torpor Orb, the Sundial is cute but too underpowered to really be useful. Sundial combines with a handful of other cards to give you moderately powerful effects like an extra turn, a 12/12 trampler, one-sided Smokestack, etc. There's another artifact, with the same casting cost, which combines with a handful of other cards to win you the game.

My vote for new card that sees the most Vintage play is Buried Ruin. I don't think anything else is even playable, to be honest. (As always, people will try other cards like Solitude Bear, play with them for a while, then cut them when they realize they're suboptimal.)

[MaximumCDawg]

Azure Mage fills a different role than Jushi Apprentice because it does not tap to draw a card.

I really, really like creatures with non-tap abilities for a couple of reasons.  First, they give you options when you are going off with an infinite-mana producing combo; always fun for casual.  Second, they act as a creature independently of allowing you to do something whenever you want.  So, here, you're getting a totally decent 2 power for 1U, and now anytime you have a spare 3U you can draw a card.  That's not terrible.

Whether it fits in Vintage depends, like Steve said in the pocast, on whether there is a deck that has space for another random 2-drop weenie.  I don't think you play Azure Mage because the card itself is astounding; I think you play it when you need a 2-drop and do not particularly care about its ability, because it's just gravy when you get to draw cards with it.  Which is, of course, the problem - what deck in Vintage EVER wants to run a random 2-drop weenie that does nothing?  And if you want card drawing, then Confidant is just all around better... so why bother?

I guess the only hope for Azure Mage is in a deck where it acts as both a weenie and a win condition with infinite mana in a deck that wants both.  Or a draw engine that does not want black. Maybe just pile on the synergies and hope for the best?  Let’s see..

Creatures (6)

4 Azure Mage         (Weenie early game; win con with Grim+Power+Array)
            (Works great with fast mana)
1 Inkwell Leviathan      (Tinker target)
1 Myr Superion      (Gives you options with Transmute Artifact to answer Shop)
         
Disruption (10)

4 Mana Drain         (Azure Mage is a nice thing to do with drain mana)
4 Force of Will   
2 Chain of Vapor      (Answer to resolved null rod)
3 Back to Basics      (Take advantage of your mono-blue nature)

Search (9)

4 Tezzeret the Seeker      (Turbotezz ahoy)
1 Tinker
3 Transmute Artifact      (Find that gemstone array / vault!)
1 Mystical Tutor

Artifacts (18)

4 Grim Monolith
4 Power Artifact
1 Gemstone Array
1 Time Vault
3 Voltaic Key   
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

Land (14)

12 Island
2 Ancient Tomb
   
So the point of this deck is to generate tons of mana fast, then lose to Null Rod.

But if you DON’T lose to null rod, then start ripping cards with Azure Mage / Tezz to find a combo and win.  Countermagic and Back to Basics are intended to just keep the opponent off long enough to go off.  No black for confidant opens up the Basics lover.  I really wanted to stick Thran Turbine in here because it’s hilarious with both Monolith and Azure Mage, but it’s sooooo bad on its own.
   

[Odd mutation]

Very interesting podcasts! It's great to hear two vintage "greats" talk about the format.

I believe Vintage needs people to talk and play the format more then ever because Legacy gets all the bliss lately. I notice that even I am more focused on Legacy lately. This format needs people talking about it and even more; PLAYING it!

Thank you for these!

Robrecht