[Free Article/New Podcast] SMIP #4: Cat Stax Fever

[CHA1N5]

http://mtgcast.com/?p=16345

Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian provide an in-depth analysis of Cat Stax, discuss related theories on Workshop Aggro, and address listener feedback on M12 and creature design in Vintage.

We analyze multiple Cat Stax lists and talk a bit of Workshop Aggro theory.  Also, listener feedback about creatures in Vintage and M12.

Don't forget the RSS, if you're not already subscribed: http://mtgcast.com/?cat=173&feed=rss2

[Smmenen]

Check it out!   Let us know what you think!  Also, if you have any topic ideas, we will entertain them.  What do you think works in the podcast medium?  Which of the four have you enjoyed most? 

[Guli]

I paused at 1h39m. Before I continue to listen, I want to share a thought that came to me while listening.

Lodestone Golem: good in Vintage, does not see play in other formats

Why?
Because of Mishra's Workshop?

It made me wonder... we are talking about how we need and want better and cheaper creatures... But is that truly the answer? Maybe it is what ENABLES the archetype is more important. See Bazaar, see Workshop, see Blue. Why is Null Rod the enabler of Fish decks? Or at least why shouldn't it be something else? A powerful land or a better Aether Vial that actually gets your bears into play faster. Null Rod doesn't enable Fish at all, it disrupts the opponent. But should be the role of your creatures and not your 'enablers'. Noble Hierarch is a good step in the right direction, however I find it still not strong enough to really push Fish up there to play with the big guys. Vial is too slow... I suggested a new vial in the card creation board:

"New Vial"  

Comes into play tapped.

When "New Vial" comes into play you may put up to two charge counters on it.

: You may put a creature card with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on "New Vial" from your hand onto the battlefield.


In essence, I am saying that it is not the utility creatures we lack, but we, Fish, would like to get our stuff faster on the battlefield without having a card disadvantage/or one time investment like ESG. Just like Lodestone Golem also costs   with a Mishra's Workshop.

[quicksilvervii]

Check it out!   Let us know what you think!  Also, if you have any topic ideas, we will entertain them.  What do you think works in the podcast medium?  Which of the four have you enjoyed most? 

Love the podcasts so far.

Pertaining to last week's topic about the fundial, has anyone thought about it's interactions with mill/unearth?  Not sure if there is anything there but I had some fun running through gatherer (if this does work the way I think it does).

Also, I am one of those who are choosing to drop Trinisphere in favor of other cards in their 60.  I know it is a turn 1 blowout, but after a couple of spheres are on the board, I find it to be rather underwhelming.  In a tight list, do people think that 3sphere would be better off replacing a sphere of resistance?  With metamorphs, shop players really need to think about the number of creatures that they want to be playing.

To answer the question for this week, I have started every shop list with 4x chalice 4x tangle wire as far as lock pieces.  If creatures are included, I would say 4x golem and 4x chalice of the void were auto-in for me.

Also, revoker has been the nuts.  I had him replace metalworker in my list (as I found him to be underwhelming more than half of the time).

[BC]

I am strongly against dropping Trinisphere.  So many games are won or lost in the first 3 turns, that dropping such a huge bomb is just a mistake.  Later in the game Trinisphere is not great, but it's just one card.  For every time it's dead late in the game, it will be a game winner on turn 1.  I won't ever cut it.

I agree on Revokers.  They have been nothing but awesome for me.

[MaximumCDawg]

I agree completely that when a card ends the game on t1, you play it.  However, this:

For every time it's dead late in the game, it will be a game winner on turn 1.

Is interesting.  Are the chances of having a t1 sphere really equal to the chances of drawing dead to it later?

I suspect it depends on the length of the game.  Your chances of having it in the opening seven is - I think - either 60 choose 7 or 7/60, depending on whether you think of it as drawing 7 instantly or consecutively.  Your chances of drawing Trinisphere t2 are the chances that it is the second card in your library, which is remote, but as the game goes on and you see more cards, you are more likely to see it. 

In other words, if you expect your games to basically end on t1, meaning either you locked your opponent or you did not, then you're drawing so few functional cards that you are MORE likely to have sphere t1 than draw it dead later.  If you expect to battle over containing your opponent for four or more turns, or if you have some sort of card advantage engine, then maybe you start to see enough of your deck in a game where you are more likley to draw dead.

Reminds me of the battle over Dark Ritual in mono black for legacy.  I play The Gate, and there is a heated debate on whether you run Dark Ritual or not.  It basically boils down to the same question: how many turns do you expect to go by before the game is effectively decided?  If you expect to decide matters on t1, then you need ritual for your first turn Plague or Crusader or whatever.  If you expect the game to go long (and imho, that's what The Gate wants to do) then you cannot afford to draw dead to a Ritual later on.

[BC]

I think more important than the statistics of "will you get it early or not", is the benefit vs. drawback discussion.  The benefit of playing Trinisphere is that once in a while you will get it in your opening 7 (~12% of the time), and then it is usually a must counter or the game is very much in your favor, if not over.  The drawback is that sometimes in the mid-to-late game it doesn't do a whole lot, especially if you already have other sphere effects going on.  So at worst it's a dead draw.  I will always take my chances with a 1-of game ending card, even if it is a "dead draw" sometimes.

[quicksilvervii]

Also, I would be really interested to see what people think about slash panther that have actually tested it.
I invite anyone who has used it to post their experiences.

[Smmenen]

Well, we have   That's why we podcasted about it.   There are a few things we neglected to mention, but one of the main areas of inquiry is trying to answer, with precision, why Slash Panther is good, and why its just better than Juggernaut.  Obviously, the haste means it can take out Planeswalkers, but the tempo also matters, and that's a more elusive quality.  The speed though interacts in other ways. 

T1: Chalice, Panther (4 damage attacking)
T2: Metamorph, Sphere (8 damage attacking)
Equals:
T3: Win (8 damage)

That's substantially faster than a Juggernaut could perform (a full turn faster).   

[quicksilvervii]

Well, we have   That's why we podcasted about it.   There are a few things we neglected to mention, but one of the main areas of inquiry is trying to answer, with precision, why Slash Panther is good, and why its just better than Juggernaut.  Obviously, the haste means it can take out Planeswalkers, but the tempo also matters, and that's a more elusive quality.  The speed though interacts in other ways. 

T1: Chalice, Panther (4 damage attacking)
T2: Metamorph, Sphere (8 damage attacking)
Equals:
T3: Win (8 damage)

That's substantially faster than a Juggernaut could perform (a full turn faster).   

I understand why the card works on paper, but was more curious about the smaller implications of the card.
For instance, was the 2 toughness ever relevant?  Does it really matter that it dies to a revoker/bob/hate bear/mishra's factory?
Which creature does this best replace, from experience?

[MaximumCDawg]

The two toughness seems to cry out for a return to the days when a blue deck would pack Fire//Ice...

@Steve - You just mentioned something I didn't really grasp from your podcast, but that is critical to understanding Panther.  Not only does Panther have haste, but once you stick him all of your Metamorphs ALSO have haste.  As you say, that's a key observation that makes Panther much, much better.

[BC]

I've tested Slash Panther a lot lately.  I played it at Superstars this weekend (10 people), and split in the finals: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=42549.0.  It is a very very strong card.  It puts serious pressure on your opponent, particularly in combination with Spheres/Tangle Wire/other robots.  The 2 toughness is a little weak, but I don't think it's a fatal flaw with the card.

EDIT: Just finished listening to the podcast, wanted to give my top 5 must-include Workshop cards:

1. Lodestone Golem - The most deck-defining card available.
2. Tangle Wire - Truly the best disruption. Mana denial, opens up combat lanes, almost like 2-3 Time Walks in a row.
3. Phyrexian Metamorph - Swiss Army Knife of Workshop decks. Additional Spheres, Golems, Wires, copies Blightsteel, Oath monsters, etc.  Does it all.
4. Trinisphere - Restricted for a reason. This card can end games on its own.  I can't imagine a scenario where I would cut it.
5. Nothing.  Everything else can reasonably be excluded, depending on the build.  If I had to shoehorn in a #5 it would be either Sphere or Chalice.

[DubDub]

As a primarily 'Blue' player, this is what I most fear:

1. Tangle Wire - this is really playing unfair, limiting you to instants, while the Shops player can usually almost completely ignore it, tapping down things that don't need to be untapped to work... like itself.
2. Sphere of Resistance - Brassman has a rule that if you can make a play with your Shops deck that denies the opponent mana, versus other options that expand your board with some less immediate impact (Welder, Juggernaut), that you should choose the one that denies them mana.  Sphere is best at that.
3. Lodestone Golem - What more needs to be said about this guy?  Completely one sided effect, with an above the curve body.
4. Metamorph - The ultimate in versatility, something that Shops should lack, given how powerful some of the plays specific to them are (see above and below).  
5. Chalice of the Void (specifically, set at 1) - The hyperefficiency needed to combat Shops thanks to the introduction of Lodestone Golem (Nature's Claim, Lightning Bolt, Steel Sabotage, etc) is punished by this card, while also having no drawback whatsoever for the Shops player.

Thanks for another good addition.  I haven't been paying attention lately and missed 'Cat Stax', which is kinda a cool development within Workshop Aggro, if not necessarily one with staying power.

[Metman]

Great podcast again.  Keep 'em coming.

I'm not much of a Workshops player but I'll chime in with my auto five for my playtesting.

1. Lodestone Golem
2. Trinisphere
3. Thorn of Amethyst
4. Tangle Wire
5. Karn, Silver Golem (I always include at least one in my builds, I see it a lot like Trinisphere.  Sometimes it's a blowout, especially in a long game)

[GrandpaBelcher]

I'm one of the ones who thinks Trinisphere can be cut as a dead draw midgame.

1. Lonestar Golem
2. Chalice of the Void
3. Thorn of Amethyst
4. Tangle Wire
5. Phyrexian Revoker

[Smmenen]

You know me, and I never usually have a dearth of Vintage topics, but if there are topics you are really interested in hearing us talk about, feel free to suggest them. 

We are still playing/learning the podcast format, but it is very different from writing an article.   We want to find ways to better take advantage of it, and plan to do so.   

[Stormanimagus]

Here are my 5 most feared cards from a non-workshop stand-point:

1. Tangle Wire
2. Lodestone Golem
3. Sphere Of Resistance
4. Chalice Of The Void
5. Crucible Of Worlds

If we are talking about engines then Metalworker has got to be quite feared in a meta-game with very few Null Rods popping up.

-Storm

[desolutionist]

oh gawd. like little girlies fighting over some guy

[doggue]

Hi Guys

Please don't blame me on my poor english. I guess you should be able to understand me nonetheless.

I want to let you know that I really LOVE your podcast. I always look forward to a new edition. I find it's a shame that only so few magic players actually play the amazing vintage format! For me at least, there's nothing like it. It's Magic at its best. The League of the elite . I can't explain how amazing it is how you dudes keep the format alive within the online community. I have a few things, that I'd love to hear you talk about in one of your upcoming episodes. I would be very happy, if you'd find a short moment in which you can discuss the following topic. I'd appreciate it very much. I hope you can find a bit of time to adress it.

-Do you think vintage magic will experience an upswing some day? If so, what do you think is needed in order to happen? Since Legacy is obviously on a noteworthy boom, the high demand on eternal cards push the prices for format staples like force of will, wasteland, duallands, fetchlands ... Do you think that hurts vintage, since its now even more expensive to enter type 1 if you never played it before and don't own these cards? OR on an other perspective, do you belive, the rediscovered love for the legacy format leads the players in a long term to use their (eternal-format) cardpool to enter vintage events? Because when a legacyplayer is able to proxy about 10 cards, he should be able to fix together a competitive vintagedeck quite quickly.

Also a very interesting topic would be, if you could adress the important strategies to beat certain decks. I often see usually good players just fail in their match against dredge because they don't know how to play against them and how to use the hate cards, which they have access to, effetively. I guess it would help lots of your listeners (including myself) since it's an issue that a ton of vintageplayers are struggeling with, since they can't playtest enough vintage in their local area.... especially not against experienced dredge-players.

Finaly I'd like to share my thought about your latest podcast about workshop decks. I have already piloted MUD in several events and I'd say that I understand the archetype quite well. I really think their 3 most important cards besides manasources are:
1. Tangle Wire (time walk for workshopers)
2. Lodestone Golem (i mean...you know, its the golem)
3. Chalice of the Void (shuts down moxen and hate)

And I totally agree that Phyrexian Revoker is just a HUGE upgrade to the deck. Personaly, I see two major MUD-strategies at the moment:
-Metalworker & 6cc drops (hellkite's etc.)
-Revoker's & Null Rod's

I had the pleasure to playtest both of the deckstrategies pretty excessively. I have to say that I think the deck with Revokers is favorable against control- and storm-decks while the one with Metalworkers is just way more powerfull against dredge and does obviously offer more insane second turns in general . In the mirror like 90% of the matches are decided in which player starts the game. Its not only beneficial, it's very important to have a Crucible Of Worlds and to have an active Metalworker OR (if youre playing with revoker) to shut the worker down with revoker or null rod. Theres nothing that hurts more than an active metalworker on the oppenent's side in the workshop mirror.

Best regards and thank you for your efforts with this AMAZING podcast! I hope you can adress my post.

Stephan

[Smmenen]

Hi Guys

Please don't blame me on my poor english. I guess you should be able to understand me nonetheless.

I want to let you know that I really LOVE your podcast. I always look forward to a new edition. I find it's a shame that only so few magic players actually play the amazing vintage format! For me at least, there's nothing like it. It's Magic at its best. The League of the elite . I can't explain how amazing it is how you dudes keep the format alive within the online community. I have a few things, that I'd love to hear you talk about in one of your upcoming episodes. I would be very happy, if you'd find a short moment in which you can discuss the following topic. I'd appreciate it very much. I hope you can find a bit of time to adress it.

-Do you think vintage magic will experience an upswing some day? If so, what do you think is needed in order to happen? Since Legacy is obviously on a noteworthy boom, the high demand on eternal cards push the prices for format staples like force of will, wasteland, duallands, fetchlands ... Do you think that hurts vintage, since its now even more expensive to enter type 1 if you never played it before and don't own these cards? OR on an other perspective, do you belive, the rediscovered love for the legacy format leads the players in a long term to use their (eternal-format) cardpool to enter vintage events? Because when a legacyplayer is able to proxy about 10 cards, he should be able to fix together a competitive vintagedeck quite quickly.

I doubt this is a topic we will be addressing in any depth in the near future.   I recently was interviewed for an article on a European website that tackled these issues.   

Our goal is definitely to spread the word on vintage and get people energized and excited, so I'm glad we are succeeding in that goal.  Kevin wants our podcast to be weekly, and I'm pushing more for a bimonthly schedule (twice a month), but we are going to keep producing these as frequently as we can.  There is no dearth of topics.   

The tricky part is that the kind of analytical articles that I did on SCG aren't possible here, so I will save that in depth analysis for article format.   However, we can do things like discuss scenarios on the podcast, and in fact, that's what we are planning to do.

Also a very interesting topic would be, if you could adress the important strategies to beat certain decks. I often see usually good players just fail in their match against dredge because they don't know how to play against them and how to use the hate cards, which they have access to, effetively. I guess it would help lots of your listeners (including myself) since it's an issue that a ton of vintageplayers are struggeling with, since they can't playtest enough vintage in their local area.... especially not against experienced dredge-players.

we will definitely present commentary on play and tightening technical play.   We'll figure it out.

[Godder]

Thread cleaned up and re-opened. This had better not devolve again.