Desperate Negation (now a cycle!)

[DubDub]

Initial wording:

Gasp of Negation -  
Instant
Counter target spell.
You get an emblem with "Spells and abilites you control cannot counter spells".

Current wording:

Desperate Negation -  
Instant
Counter target spell.
You get an emblem with "Spells and abilites you control cannot counter spells."

Desperate Defense -  
Instant
Deal 10 damage to each blocked creature.
You get an emblem with "Prevent all damage that would be dealt to creatures an opponent controls by sources you control."

Desperate Reclamation -  
Instant
You may destroy up to two target artifacts and/or enchantments.
You get an emblem with "Spells and abilities you control cannot destroy artifacts or enchantments."

Desperate Immolation -  
Instant
Desperate Immolation does five damage to target player.
You get an emblem with "Spells and abilities you control cannot target players."

Desperate Bargain -  
Instant
Search your library for a card, then shuffle your library and put that card on top of it.
You get an emblem with "You may not search your library."

[AmbivalentDuck]

Seems to fill the same niche as Pact of Negation: enabling combos to answer all potential answers at low cost.

[DubDub]

Seems to fill the same niche as Pact of Negation: enabling combos to answer all potential answers at low cost.

Yes, the name is an homage to Pact of Negation.  I was also thinking about how Wizards has said that if counterspells are too good (or too numerous) then many players don't like the prospect of having everything the do get countered.  So the challenge was to design a strong counterspell that isn't good in a deck with tons of other counterspells.

[thorme]

The red one strikes me as overpowered when used as a finisher.

In general, I like the idea of these.  I do worry a little bit about whether the emblem execution given that it seems to be a last resort for functionality that can't be done elsewhere.  Maybe its possible to do something along the lines of "If Grasp of Negation is in your graveyard, spells and abilites you control cannot counter spells".

[Wagner]

Would also work as a draw 3 cards that prevents you from drawing cards from spells or effects after.

The "if in your graveyard" clause seems ok, but would most likely be too easily abused. Just pack some Relic of Prog, Lavamancer or prettt much anything to break the drawback.

Hard to say for white. You can't really make a life gain spell with it without it being awful or too strong.

For black I would actually see a 1-2 mana tutor that prevents you from searching in your library afterwards. Don't think it would be too strong.

Green is hard. Kill 2 artifact/enchantments and then all opponent's artifact/enchantments are indestructible? Search your library for 2 lands, put into play tapped, you can't play any lands?

[DubDub]

The red one strikes me as overpowered when used as a finisher.

In the Vintage context I think it's 100% fine.  In fact I don't think it's overpowered for Legacy either.  It might bolster dedicated burn/sligh decks, but those decks aren't anywhere near dominant and I don't think this would put them over the top.  Those decks still have to contend with Counterbalance backed up with the new Mental Misstep.

In general, I like the idea of these.  I do worry a little bit about whether the emblem execution given that it seems to be a last resort for functionality that can't be done elsewhere.  Maybe its possible to do something along the lines of "If Grasp of Negation is in your graveyard, spells and abilites you control cannot counter spells".

I don't think using emblems is a mistake here.  The functionality is very different from the static graveyard checking line you suggest.  Emblems are currently the realm mostly of Planeswalkers, as big effects like Elspeth1.0 or Venser's ultimate, but I don't think that will always be the case.  I think you could sell a cycle of these if they do powerful enough things.  I mean, ignoring the emblem line, this is a hard counterspell, for .  In a world where Cancel has become the norm (fantastic spells like Steel Sabotage, Mental Misstep and Spell Pierce aside...) for new hard-counters that still stands out.

Would also work as a draw 3 cards that prevents you from drawing cards from spells or effects after.

That seems enormously too good for Standard and Vintage.  In Legacy it would be a non-bo with Brainstorms, but still potentially an option for some combo decks or decks that expect to get card advantage through Bob.  It also would be cluttered (I expect) by needing a Chains of Mephistopheles type exception for one's 'normal' draw.

The "if in your graveyard" clause seems ok, but would most likely be too easily abused. Just pack some Relic of Prog, Lavamancer or prettt much anything to break the drawback.

Yeah, in a red deck:  : five to the dome, remove with lavamancer, : five more to the dome?  Frightening.

Hard to say for white. You can't really make a life gain spell with it without it being awful or too strong. [...]
Green is hard. Kill 2 artifact/enchantments and then all opponent's artifact/enchantments are indestructible? Search your library for 2 lands, put into play tapped, you can't play any lands?

I was actually thinking for White and Green it could be combined into a hero-defense type spell:

Gasp of Salvation -
Instant
Search your library for a creature card and put it into play.  Then shuffle your library.  That creature may block any number of attacking creatures this turn.  Exile the creature at the beginning of the end step, or if it would leave the battlefield for anywhere.

Edit: Oops, forgot a drawback-emblem, what seems appropriate?

For black I would actually see a 1-2 mana tutor that prevents you from searching in your library afterwards. Don't think it would be too strong.

Yeah, that was the first thing that came to mind when I expanded my thinking to a cycle.  I initially thought it would be too powerful, but reconsidering these in the light of only attaching emblems to big effects I think it could be given another chance.

There's now a cycle (counting the   one twice) in the first post.

[Delha]

I like these in conceptually, still undecided on the use of emblems. I suppose the memory issue could be offset by printing Emblem cards that went in packs just like creature tokens.

White: I think 10 (or maybe 15) would be enough for a good lifegain variant. 10 life is probably enough to buy you a turn in most situations.

Green: I liked Wagner's suggestion, destroy up to 2 enchants/artifacts, then all the rest are indestructible.

[DubDub]

I like these in conceptually, still undecided on the use of emblems. I suppose the memory issue could be offset by printing Emblem cards that went in packs just like creature tokens.

White: I think 10 (or maybe 15) would be enough for a good lifegain variant. 10 life is probably enough to buy you a turn in most situations.

Green: I liked Wagner's suggestion, destroy up to 2 enchants/artifacts, then all the rest are indestructible.

I wish there were more to the white slice of the color pie than life gain.  Here's a more exciting one for white:
Gasp of Reprisal - 
Instant
Exile target creature.
You get an emblem with "Creatures you control can't attack."

And for green:
Gasp of the Beast - 
Instant
You may put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefield.
You get an emblem with "Creature cards, tokens, and spells you control or own lose all abilites in all zones."

Too ridiculous?

[MaximumCDawg]

The gasp concept is neat, but probably not enough of a downside.  The counterspell in particular seems really strong in a black shell using mostly duress effects and a few of the one-shot counters.  I've liked this idea for awhile:

Desperate Counterspell
U
Instant
Counter target spell. That spell's controller controls your next turn.

[Delha]

Side note: I like the idea of replacing "Gasp of" with "Desperate". Sounds better, IMHO. So, these would be Desperate Negation, Desperate Salvation, etc.

I think these last two don't really match the feel you'd previously established for the cycle. All of the original suggestions were following the pattern of "Do X, but then it will never work again". Reprisal and Beast have very disparate drawbacks relative to their effect.

On an individual card level:
Reprisal really sucks. It does the same thing as Swords/Path, but with a much nastier drawback.
Beast is overpowered. T1 Beast -> Emrakul is ridiculous, even without flying or annihilate.

@CDawg: I disagree. Blanking every Drain, Pierce, and FoW in your 60 is pretty ugly.

[DubDub]

Some changes in the first post, including the white Nature's Claim.

[Delha]

I'd like to see a bigger effect from the green and white ones.

All the others are borderline unprintable even with the drawback, but the white one is a slightly better Nature's Claim (or slightly cheaper Disenchant, if you prefer), and the green one is a slightly better Rogue Elephant or Wild Nactl. Neither feels especially impressive in terms of raw power.

[DubDub]

I'd like to see a bigger effect from the green and white ones.

All the others are borderline unprintable even with the drawback, but the white one is a slightly better Nature's Claim (or slightly cheaper Disenchant, if you prefer), and the green one is a slightly better Rogue Elephant or Wild Nactl. Neither feels especially impressive in terms of raw power.

I don't have other ideas for the blue, green or black ones at the moment.  But how about pairing up the red and white ones instead:

Desperate Cleansing -   
Instant
Destroy all enchantments.
You get an emblem with "If a spell or ability you control would destroy an enchantment controlled by one of your opponents, instead it doesn't."

Desperate Outburst -   
Instant
Destroy all artifacts.
You get an emblem with "If a spell or ability you control would destroy an artifact controlled by one of your opponents, instead it doesn't."

[Delha]

Sorry, I should have phrased that better. I consider the Blue/Black/Red to be borderline unprintable, but meant that as a good thing. It means they do cool enough things that people will want to play the card. What I was getting at was that the effects from White/Green felt unimpressive, especially when compared to the others.

Did you have anything in particular against the version of Green that Wagner suggested, where you nuke two artifacts/enchants?

Also, how about a variant of that for white? Destroy all attacking creatures (or maybe just 2?), then make all opponent's creatures indestructible.

[DubDub]

Okay, we can revamp in that way, thanks for the clarification.  I'm trying to stay away from making your opponents' stuff indestructible because of the effect it would have in a multiplayer game.  The "If... would destroy..., instead it doesn't." means it's just a drawback for you in the future, and boards won't get clogged up with stuff that can't be killed by anyone.

So, assuming the red one is restored to Desperate Lightning to deal 5 damage once, could the artifact destruction shift over to green from the red version in my last post, with enchantments still belonging to white?  Shatterstorm just became green in Scars block didn't it?

Desperate Cleansing -   
Instant
Destroy all enchantments.
You get an emblem with "If a spell or ability you control would destroy an enchantment controlled by one of your opponents, instead it doesn't."
Same as immediately above.

Desperate Reclamation - 
Instant
Destroy all artifacts.
You get an emblem with "If a spell or ability you control would destroy an artifact controlled by one of your opponents, instead it doesn't."

[Delha]

I'd like to reiterate my question about the nuke two artifacts/enchants version. While I don't think there's anything inherently wrong, each feels a bit narrow. IMO, it's better to reduce the scale of the effect and add versatility.

Also, and I realize this is a very minor complaint, it feels kind of lame to eat up two slots with such similar effects. If you end up agreeing with Wagner's suggestion, how about the below for White?

Desperate Defense
Instant
Deal 10 damage to each blocked creature.
You get an emblem with "Prevent all damage that would be dealt to creatures an opponent controls by sources you control."

I kind of want to see a mini Overrun for green as well, but feel that the double Naturalize is just better (in terms of both playability and design).

[DubDub]

I'm convinced.  I didn't think double Naturalize was a big enough deal, but countering a single spell isn't a big deal either.  Changes in the first post.

[Delha]

I should point out that my above suggestion was 10 dmg to each blocked creature, not each attacking creature. I honestly prefer hitting all attackers, but felt it would be OP. I saw it playing out as a one sided wrath for a lot of the time.

It ends up being absolutely brutal against Fish and MUD and crams easily into creatureless decks. Keeping this conditional (requiring blockers) solves the issue by making it less splashable.

[DubDub]

I should point out that my above suggestion was 10 dmg to each blocked creature, not each attacking creature. I honestly prefer hitting all attackers, but felt it would be OP. I saw it playing out as a one sided wrath for a lot of the time.

It ends up being absolutely brutal against Fish and MUD and crams easily into creatureless decks. Keeping this conditional (requiring blockers) solves the issue by making it less splashable.

I saw that, and thought as well that hitting attackers would be better.  Requiring blocking the creatures at all is in the white slice of the color pie however, and much more balanced, while still being quite good in the formats where both players play creatures.  Changed.

[Darkenslight]

For Desperate Defense, why not make it, "All attacking creatures are sacrificed."?

[DubDub]

For Desperate Defense, why not make it, "All attacking creatures are sacrificed."?

Well, I do think it should be 'all blocked creatures', but sacrifice doesn't seem right.  It could be 'are destroyed' instead, but I think the point was that with the current version most blocked creatures will die, but thereafter your creatures can't damage them again.  If you use 'are destroyed... can't destroy' as the effect-emblem pair then creatures you control can still kill their creatures in combat, and it doesn't stop the majority of white's removal, which exiles instead of destroying anyway.  I don't think a change is necessary.

[Delha]

For Desperate Defense, why not make it, "All attacking creatures are sacrificed."?

Because that would be the best anti-aggro card printed, ever.

Also, how would you word the emblem? I'd avoid replacement effects like "If you would do X, instead do not" because they typically create unique circumstances, which often lead to unique rules problems in turn. I purposely chose damage and destruction over exile because they have established game terms which counteract them. That allows them to fit into the framework players are already familiar with, cutting down on rules based misunderstandings and arguments.