Primer: Bant Fish 2011

[Guli]

Hi there dear Fish fans and Fish haters. It is time to refresh this lovely archetype. There are cards from Scars of Mirrodin, Commander and the best new addition is from the latest core set Magic 2011. I took a glance at the list and sure there are some cards that can be called ancient and old news but a considerable part of the list has new stuff. Stuff that FIsh did not have in 2006-2007 when I was messing around with the 'Mr. Gaddock'. I guess wizards heard us and decided to print lovely bears over the years. I can only say, keep up the good job!

First I want to say that Shop is a big concern and for that reason I want to run 4x Vial instead of 4x Null Rod. Null Rod can be replaced by Phyrexian Revoker and in this list that is even more true for reasons you will read later on. So keep this thread Null Rod free, there is an entire section for those decks. Thanks.

I also chose to play with Noble Hierarch to increase the chances of having a good 1 drop against Shop. Both turn one Aether Vial as turn one Noble Hierarch are strong openings. Also, since both plays are mana investments they work very nicely with strip and waste effects. When trying to find good answers and cards against Shop, be sure to make them as cheap as possible, because chances are you will never get the chance to cast Trygon Predator or Energy Flux. Well, sure, in a deck running a good amount of fetch and basics you have a fair chance of getting your threat into play. But this deck wants to avoid having islands and plains. Reasons for that:

- Even with Gaddock Teeg in the deck, Massacre can still hit you. Not playing with plains means this will most likely not happen.
- Having islands in the deck means you are giving cards like Cold-eyed Selkie, Inkwell Leviathan and Thada Adel, Acquisitor free passage. This can matter.
- Sundering Titan is no longer a bomb on your mana base.
- It will enable you to play cards like Choke.



Seachrome Coast, Razorverge Thicket and Horizon Canpoy will provide the deck for all the mana they need alongside Noble Hierarch and Aether Vial. Next to that Strip Mine and four Wastelands will be present to play the mana denial game. Furthermore, two Ghost Quarters are maindecked. In total this means about 18 lands. Accompanied with Black Lotus and 3 on colour Moxes this gives the deck access to 22 direct mana sources. But there is more, because you really want to drop a turn 1 bear. Elvish Spirit Guide is in the deck serving as lotus petals while being unaffected by sphere effects and opposing Null Rods.

The Ghost Quarters signal the presence of Leonin Arbiter. The addition of Arbiter is related to the hot new bear from M12 that barely got discussion but is a very powerful 2 drop and most likely one of the most flexible creatures ever printed. Phantasmal Image is a card that can be your 5-8th Meddling Mage, Phyrexian Revoker, Qasali Pridemage or Leonin Arbiter. It single handily answers Tinker, a fundamental problem for Fish, while also able to copy Dark Confidant and Goblin Welder. There is more, yep, it also helps a lot against Shop. Duplicant is not that scary anymore if this is in your hand. Vial it in to copy Duplicant to imprint Steel Hellkite or Precursor Golem. You can kill Karn or any other legendary creatures. The most powerful thing is being able to copy Meddling Mage when playing Blue. Almost as powerful is to copy Qasali Pridemage when playing Workshop and work from there. With Phyrexian Revoker and/or Leonin Arbiter on the board you can effectively play a strong mana denial game. Especially with the strip effects in the mix.

The previous paragraph is just a small  extraction from what I have been experiencing when testing Phantasmal Image. The next issue is the addition of Gaddock Teeg and Edric Spymaster. I have chosen to add three Gaddock Teeg and one Edric Spymaster. It never hurts to see one Edric in a deck packed with so many bears. Gaddock is so strong against Blue because it upgrades the power level of all you other cards. You suddenly have to deal with less winning routes looking from the opponents perspective. This is something new, Gaddock is no longer the must get hoser, it is more and more a support card that gives you breathing space. Giving a card like Gaddock this secondary role means that you won't rely on him so much because you have a strong primary game plan with the Phantasmal Images and all the powerful copy targets. All of the copy targets are good on there own and will never be dead in this meta. Exceptions are Gaddock Teeg and Leonin Arbiter against Workshop (unless playing respectively Smokestack and Forgemaster) and of course Dredge. The dredge match up is surprisingly good and this is due to Gaddock Teeg (Dread Return), Medding mage (Cabal Therapy) and Strip effects (Bazaar). Stuff that look good on paper but actually aren't are Phantasmal Image and Qasali Pridemage (Bridges). You usually don't have the time.

The sideboard is related to the match up's so I will discuss these simultaneously. I was talking about the dredge match up pre-board. Post board you get to side in two pithing needle, 1 Gaddock Teeg, 2 Ghost Quarter to reinforce the already present strategy. You side out Leonin Arbiters and Aether Vials. This gives you the option to side in more cards. You can side in Envelop and Mental Misstep to counter Capal Therapy and Dread Return. You can also side in True Believer to stop Cabal Therapy on you. You don't really need Phyrexian Revoker. You aren't trying to remove there graveyard or bridges, you are trying to stop the Bazaar, the Bridge enabler and the win condition. Usually they side in things like Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor with some creature removal to deal with your answers. So Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt are most likely to get bounced. You can't bounce wastelands. You could still add a couple of Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus to make the post board matches stronger.

Envelop is a card you will appreciate when trying to set up a board position with a lot of bears naming stuff. It is nice to have Envelop when you have Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage (on Mana drain). Cards like Perish, Pyroclasm, Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will are not likely to get through. The occasional Demonic Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Ponder, Preordain and so on are also decent targets. You side this card in when you play blue and you also side in Mental Misstep and the 4th Gaddock Teeg. You side out Aether Vial if you are on the draw. Leave the Vial in when you are on the play. You can side out one Qasali and one ESG against non-Oath blue combo since you will have Revokers and Meddling Mages. You want Teeg, Meddling and Revoker supported by Phantasmal Image when fighting Blue. Against Oath you need True Bliever, Meddling Mage, Qasali and Phantasmal Images.

When playing Ritual Combo, you can get in Believers and Teeg. Side out Vial to bring in faster things like Mental misstep and Envelop to stop there rituals, recall, duress and Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will...

Fish decks have a problem against this heavy creature variant of aggro control. Equipments can be dealt with and big creatures can be copied. The problem is that this deck packs no removal or bounce. So carefully play out your Phantasmal Images. When playing Rod-Fish you side out Aether Vial and bring in Mental Misstep to stop spot removal like Path to Exile and Sword to Plowshares. You can bring in something else too like Needle to combat problematic creatures like Stormscape, Gorilla Shaman etc. When playing Vial Fish or others you can leave in the Vial's but bring in Nature's Claim to get rid of things like Revoker and Equipment.

Against Workshop you want to bring in Nature's Claim, Pithing Needle and Ghost Quarters. Side out Gaddock Teeg and Leonin Arbiter.


Hope you enjoyed the read, the attempt was to show interesting dynamics of Phantasmal Image and illustrate that Aggro Control
did get a lot of new bears over the years. These new disruptive creatures can give you the means to effectively stop the opponent if you name and/or copy the right cards. I have been having a lot fun and good results with it. Feel free to test it out and tune it further. The base line is set. The card that I will try to sneak in this list is Choke. Right now I don't know how it will turn out. Should it be main deck with the blue heavy meta? Or should it be sideboard? Or something in between? These are the question I leave open.


Best regards,
Guli

Bant Fish 2011 by Guli (can be directly copied to Cockatrice)

1 Karakas
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Razorverge Thicket
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 AEther Vial
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Meddling Mage
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Trygon Predator
SB: 3 Envelop
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 True Believer
SB: 3 Mental Misstep
SB: 2 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg

[Wagner]

Even with Gaddock Teeg on the board, Massacre can still hit when you least expect it.

It can??? How?

[Guli]

Even with Gaddock Teeg on the board, Massacre can still hit when you least expect it.

It can??? How?

On the board means 'in the deck'

[madmanmike25]

When trying to find good answers and cards against Shop, be sure to make them as cheap as possible, because chances are you will never get the chance to cast Trygon Predator or Energy Flux.

Cheap is good, but still a turn 1 Heirach really helps get Trygon into play on turn 2.  The fact that you run 4 ESG seems like it wouldn't be difficult at all.   I guess the point is that I don't understand why a deck concerned with the Shop matchup would not run Trygon when it can support it.  Did I also mention an early Trygon can eat Oath too?

I'm concerned to see no STP, but I suppose your answer to creatures is Phantasmal Image.  Not sure you would want to copy a Lodestone though.  Depends on the situation.

Since you have 4 Meddling Mages, have you thought about Chain of Vapor as a removal card?  Your cards have a low cc so the symetrical aspect of Chain shouldn't be a huge drawback.  Chain can also  bounce back your Mage, THEN be used on a nasty permanent you dont like.  Since you run Vial the Mage can make its way back on the board.  Btw on the board is on the board and in the deck is in the deck .  Let's not confuse people.

Good luck with the concept.  I'm not going to lie, I think the inclusion of blue merits FoW in the deck but you chose the Teeg route. 

[Wagner]

Even with Gaddock Teeg on the board, Massacre can still hit when you least expect it.

It can??? How?

On the board means 'in the deck'

That doesn't make any sense! Massacre can't affect creatures in your deck!

/done trolling now

I must say that I haven't seen Massacre in any sideboard for years, is it really worth putting in crappy lands for?

[RecklessEmbermage]

I must say that I haven't seen Massacre in any sideboard for years, is it really worth putting in crappy lands for?

This. I love your current creature suite though.

[Guli]

I have corrected the massacre thing, hope you happy now Please do point mistakes like that if you see them.


I have made a slight adjustment. I cut 1 land (Seachrome) and added a second Edric, Spymaster of Trest. I felt like I was drawing a lot of land and 2x Edric feels better than a singleton.

It is a tight list, how are you going to include Force of Will without making drastic changes? And how are you going to replace the lost blue card. Just cast your meddling mage and name something key and follow it up with more hosers, that is your force of will... I also don't think you need to have a Force ready on turn 0. It is not like turn 1 kills are that common. With the acceleration you will be able to get in there fast enough.

I must say that I haven't seen Massacre in any sideboard for years, is it really worth putting in crappy lands for?

This. I love your current creature suite though.

Why would you risk it? Just today I had an opponent casting Sundering Titan. I killed it a while later with a copied Qasali Pridemage. I would have lost all my lands if they were standard duals. Those lands are not crappy lol, they are being used by a lot of Fish players. They are actually normal duals with Wasteland and Canopy. Don't forget that Leonin Arbiter is in the main deck alongside Phantasmal Image. You really want to capitalize on that by running zero fetch lands.

[serracollector]

I have played against this and tested with Guli, and used the decklist to test against others on MWS, and I must say the deck is incredibly versatile.  I personally have made 1 difference:

-4 Leonin Arbiter
+2 Scavenging Ooze
+2 Trygon Predator

I have to agree that, especially with nobles and ESGs, that Trygon should be in there.  That, or Relic-Warders, but alas double white can easily be an issue, especially with no basics/fetches.

As for scavenging ooze, this card has single handedly won me SO me games.  It stops Y will shannagins, stops hermit druid combo, stops dredge, and is not only a replacement for Goyf (pumping itself while removing any dead creatures, which happens a lot obv), but also stops goyf from growing to a 4/5 or higher, not to mention the little bit of life gain, which "could" matter.

I currently run 2 Ooze maindeck in all my Ooze decks, and 2 in the SB.

Don't get me wrong first turn Arbiter, turn 2 Revoker on whatever Moxen, can easily be GG against big blue, but Ooze helps against....well, everything else.

I don't know wat else you would drop for them, but Ooze is amazing.

BTW, don't know the exact rullings anymore, if Image copies an Ooze, does it get the +1/+1 counters already on it, or is it just a 2/2?

Keep it up Guli, FISH IS BACK!

[Guli]

I have played against this and tested with Guli, and used the decklist to test against others on MWS, and I must say the deck is incredibly versatile.  I personally have made 1 difference:

-4 Leonin Arbiter
+2 Scavenging Ooze
+2 Trygon Predator

I have to agree that, especially with nobles and ESGs, that Trygon should be in there.  That, or Relic-Warders, but alas double white can easily be an issue, especially with no basics/fetches.

As for scavenging ooze, this card has single handedly won me SO me games.  It stops Y will shannagins, stops hermit druid combo, stops dredge, and is not only a replacement for Goyf (pumping itself while removing any dead creatures, which happens a lot obv), but also stops goyf from growing to a 4/5 or higher, not to mention the little bit of life gain, which "could" matter.

I currently run 2 Ooze maindeck in all my Ooze decks, and 2 in the SB.

Don't get me wrong first turn Arbiter, turn 2 Revoker on whatever Moxen, can easily be GG against big blue, but Ooze helps against....well, everything else.

I don't know wat else you would drop for them, but Ooze is amazing.

BTW, don't know the exact rullings anymore, if Image copies an Ooze, does it get the +1/+1 counters already on it, or is it just a 2/2?

Keep it up Guli, FISH IS BACK!

Clone effects copy the card as it is just like you would play it yourself, so no counters. Just an Ooze that would come into play fresh and sound.

Interesting adjustments. Why did you target Leonin Arbiter? It is an important piece of the puzzle when you are going heavy on the mana denial with Revoker and Wastelands with Phantasmal Image to copy Revoker or Leonin Arbiter. I can see Trygon helping out with that plan. Why not cut Edric for Trygon? I am not sold on Ooze in this deck. But I am sure 2x slots can be found for the card if it proves to be THAT good (as you claim).

[serracollector]

I chose arbiters because they really only affect Big Blue, which yes there is a lot of that, but your gonna feel silly facing MUD or Dredge with a hand of 2+ Arbiters and an Image.  Against ANY deck, and Trygon or Ooze is useful as they either destroy mana pieces/anything in MUD, remove grave yard cards that can come back to bite you in the ass (remove that ancient grudge before they kill your Revoker etc), and can Pump to block those Lodestone/Precursors all day long.  It also lets you make use of the images that were targeted and died, or makes use of that Noble u used to block a lodestone, by pumping the Ooze.  I have had multiple games where I have 6/6+ ooze(s) running amok after my enemy balanced, perished, or Massacred.

[Guli]

I chose arbiters because they really only affect Big Blue, which yes there is a lot of that, but your gonna feel silly facing MUD or Dredge with a hand of 2+ Arbiters and an Image.  Against ANY deck, and Trygon or Ooze is useful as they either destroy mana pieces/anything in MUD, remove grave yard cards that can come back to bite you in the ass (remove that ancient grudge before they kill your Revoker etc), and can Pump to block those Lodestone/Precursors all day long.  It also lets you make use of the images that were targeted and died, or makes use of that Noble u used to block a lodestone, by pumping the Ooze.  I have had multiple games where I have 6/6+ ooze(s) running amok after my enemy balanced, perished, or Massacred.

Interesting, really. I am kinda in agreement about the points you are making. I guess it just makes me sad to drop Leonin Arbiter in a deck with Phantasmal Image. That said, I believe Meddling Mage, Revoker, Qasali and Teeg already offer a lot in that match up. Trygon and Ooze will also be good against blue.

I will try this:

Bant 2011
4 Meddling Mage
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Trygon Predator
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 AEther Vial
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Karakas
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Razorverge Thicket
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 2 Trygon predator
SB: 2 True Believer
SB: 3 Mental Misstep
SB: 2 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Sacred Ground

[madmanmike25]

I really like the idea of Ooze as it reminds me of Withered Wretch.  It seems like a good card for those who complained about Goyf being too vanilla.

Guli, if you absolutely had to, could you pick what % of each decktype you gear your maindeck to face?  For example:

20% Dredge
45% Shops
35%  Blue

You could replace Dredge with Fish if you see it more.  With that in mind, I don't think anyone gears up to face Goblins or Belcher.  I'm trying to find out if you are metagame specific, or are just trying to build an overall balanced maindeck.  Once you establish that, I think it will make some of the card choices more obvious.  Btw, it can be a rough estimate.

[serracollector]

Yes the new decklist looks really good, but I personally would run 1 forest over the gaea's cradle.  1) How often are you gonna need more than 1 mana out of a land, and 2, how many games are you gonna have a beautiful hand with cradle in it, making it useless?

[Guli]

Yes the new decklist looks really good, but I personally would run 1 forest over the gaea's cradle.  1) How often are you gonna need more than 1 mana out of a land, and 2, how many games are you gonna have a beautiful hand with cradle in it, making it useless?

Could be something else too. What gives blue/white/green mana and is useful for this deck?

*I just added the 4th ESG back in the deck. Problem Solved.

Let's discuss Choke for this deck. How would it play out?

[Guli]

I really like the idea of Ooze as it reminds me of Withered Wretch.  It seems like a good card for those who complained about Goyf being too vanilla.

Guli, if you absolutely had to, could you pick what % of each decktype you gear your maindeck to face?  For example:

20% Dredge
45% Shops
35%  Blue

You could replace Dredge with Fish if you see it more.  With that in mind, I don't think anyone gears up to face Goblins or Belcher.  I'm trying to find out if you are metagame specific, or are just trying to build an overall balanced maindeck.  Once you establish that, I think it will make some of the card choices more obvious.  Btw, it can be a rough estimate.

I try to design in such a way that I can build up against shop even if they have Lodestone Golem. Vial can do this. ESG and Noble support this strategy too. Every Top 8 I look at has Workshop decks. So for me the percentage doesn't really matter, it matters to be prepared with a working strategy. Obviously I also have main deck hate against Blue. Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg are simply the best spell denial bears within the concept of aggro/control. Qasali and Revoker are the best tactical support on the battlefield you can get. The role of Phantasmal is that he is simply everything while being also an answer to Tinker. The nice part about this creature base, is that it is so versatile with some exceptions. So you aren't really running a hate deck anymore, you are running creatures that can adapt to a given match up. However I do think that the SB needs work.


SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 True Believer
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Energy Flux

I wsa thinking of this. With Ooze, wastelands and Gaddock there isn't that much need for a heavy anti-dredge SB. You still bring in Teeg, Ooze, Crypt and Believer and that is 7 cards. I think this should be fine. If not, I will increase the hate. Choke and FLux are what will make this sideboard very effective. I would like to run Choke main but I am hesitant.

[serracollector]

I have been testing a similar SB, and once again a few suggestions:

-1 Flux
-2 True Believer
+3 Ethersworn Cannonist.

They are easier to cast vs Storm.dec, with Vial, and no "draw engine" you really won't be casting more than 1 spell a turn anyways, and trust me when I say 4 trygon, 4 qasali, 4 ESG, 4 Noble, and 2 Flux is well more than enough to handle MUD (outside of a first turn Trini, 2nd turn crucible/waste).

the WW of TBelieve, and the fact it makes it so you cant target yourself with Acall, makes it subpar to Cannonist IMO against Storm decks.

[Guli]

Don't forget that Believer is also Oath hate.

[serracollector]

How many times are you gonna get that first turn Believer over that first turn qasali or trygon, which both also answer oath?  Not to mention your 5 strips, and meddling mage.  WW is the same as 3G in your deck casting cost wise.

[Blue Lotus]

I'm going to have to agree the resiliency towards wasteland > resiliency towards massacre. That being said, Horizon Canopy is a monster of a card.

I would try to include Knight of the Reliquary. She gets beefy fast and can tutor up Karakas, maybe Maze of Ith, and of course mana denial. Maybe be worth testing out. You would have to completely retool the manabase, but untapped knight shuts down wasteland pretty well.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Without getting drawn into the debate over specific card choices, I'd like to step in and talk about my experiences playing against Guli today.

1.  This thing can consistently beat Legacy Zoo.  You know, the reason why we refer to fish as a metagame deck.
1a. I think the disruption package is now so general and resilience to "bad decks" is so high that this can't reasonably be called a metagame deck
2.  The matchups against "blue," shops, and dredge were strong.  I was particularly surprised at my inability to win game 1s with dredge.
3.  Phantasmal Image is a truly transformational card.  It's on par with Sculpting Steel or Metamorph in shops.
4.  Ooze probably deserves more play in Legacy.  Possibly over Tarmogoyf.
5.  This is a resource denial deck, pure and simple.  It was effective in pursuing that purpose, though I suspect that adding Ghost Quarter somewhere wouldn't hurt.
6.  Guli's unorthodox mana base was never a problem for either of us.

[serracollector]

So I see your liking the inclusions of Ooze?

[Shax]

I remember Guli Enveloping a key sorcery in one of our matches and my first reaction was like ''Wtf?!''.. but then I figured it was a trash card, but I could'nt specifically call it out on being a trash card in the game since it swung the game in a different direction. I forgot who won that match, but I have to give props for that tech out of the board. Oh now I remember. He Trygon Predator'd me out of the match I think..  something like that.

Anyways I think the Fish deck is alright and for people to have a chance with Fish in the metagame they need to push for the interaction and consitancy between your cards. I think BUG fish is a good choice, but Bant fish is a different monster. I guess having access to white removal is a good thing, and the creatures it provides to Fish is invaluable.

I have a Idea Guli for your list. Since you have no fetchlands, how about running Aven Mindcensor for insane 'BBlue' matchup. It flys too for synergy with Edric to pro hop pesky Lodestone Golems and find your Quaygons. A downside to this is that I noticed alot of your creatures offer immediate impact, like Gaddock Teeg-Phyrexian Revoker-Pridemage. Having sparce Aven Mindcensor could'nt be that bad as Gaddock Teeg in multiples.

[Guli]

I have to point out that this deck does not suffer against wastelands as much as other Fish would. This is because the deck runs artifact mana, ESG's, Aether Vial and Noble Hierarch. Every time you waste a land while I have Vial or Noble you are missing a land drop. You could even debate that using wasteland against Noble or Vial is actually wasting your own land.

There is no more room for additional cards. I will discuss card by card:

4 Meddling Mage

No you don't ever want to play less than four. The card is simply cutting of outs and so on. The primary copy target if you are making a sandwich out of your opponents deck. Make sure you use the right ingredients before you bite and enjoy your meal.

4 Phantasmal Image

OH MY GOD. I had to like open up two threads on this forum to get this guy discussed more. How can it not be discussed. The card is hot and ready to be abused by good Fish pilots. Feel free to make a more blue heavy Fish and run Force of Will. I will stick with,

3 Gaddock Teeg

At least for now. I am loyal... I mean look at the face of this guy. He looks angry. With the mox and ESG's this is just something you can't cut. They should print a FOW for creatures. Something that costs  and has the alternate cost of remove a green or white creature from your hand and pay a life. This way we can all run force of will with gaddock teeg and this ancient discussion of 'gaddock versus force' will end forever.

4 Qasali Pridemage

Clock, Oath, TV, breaks stalemates, primary copy target versus Workshop, blows up bridges. So in every match up he is good. That is called a good bear sir.

4 Phyrexian Revoker

Revoker has been saving against all sorts of threats. Welder, SOFI, Grim, ... very long list. But most importantly just like the new Panter Stax does, he rewinds the game for your opponents. And just like Phyrexian Metamorph we have Phantasmal Image. A very similar strategy. With the strip effects, the revokers become very time walkish. He is also very easy to cast and works great under a Vial. By the way, Phantasmal also works nice with Vial.

You could start tuning and tweaking and so on, but I don't think cutting any of the above cards is correct. These are the core cards in the deck. I am not even sure that playing only 3 Gaddock is correct. This deck should probably play 4 main deck.

Then we have the big support cards. You will have one or two in your hand and see or or the other during the course of the game.


2 Scavenging Ooze

This card is actually more useful than it appears over a variety of match ups. Still it is hard to pay for the activation in a three colour deck. Noble is his friend but without Noble it gets hard to get to the green mana. HOWEVER, he does answer crucible locks so when he gets the chance, he will start rolling. Against blue, he will have all the mana he needs since they don't hamper with your mana base. I think two main and two SB is fine just like serracollector suggested.

2 Trygon Predator

I have won more games against Shop with this. I acknowledge this. But I have won a lot of games without him too. He just makes the job easier. More importantly he has the ability to kill Phyrexian Revoker to reactivate your Aether Vial or Noble Hierarch. Copying this with Metamorph is not an out for the opponent because you have exalted.

2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest

Works nicely with Trygon and well... 30+ creatures, LOL. It is a necessary and nice touch in the deck. At some point they desperately go for Tinker while you have 3-4 bears. Edric is the guy to have there. You just swing and draw into Phantasmal or other goodies.

I remember Guli Enveloping a key sorcery in one of our matches and my first reaction was like ''Wtf?!''.. but then I figured it was a trash card, but I could'nt specifically call it out on being a trash card in the game since it swung the game in a different direction. I forgot who won that match, but I have to give props for that tech out of the board. Oh now I remember. He Trygon Predator'd me out of the match I think..  something like that.

Anyways I think the Fish deck is alright and for people to have a chance with Fish in the metagame they need to push for the interaction and consitancy between your cards. I think BUG fish is a good choice, but Bant fish is a different monster. I guess having access to white removal is a good thing, and the creatures it provides to Fish is invaluable.

I have a Idea Guli for your list. Since you have no fetchlands, how about running Aven Mindcensor for insane 'BBlue' matchup. It flys too for synergy with Edric to pro hop pesky Lodestone Golems and find your Quaygons. A downside to this is that I noticed alot of your creatures offer immediate impact, like Gaddock Teeg-Phyrexian Revoker-Pridemage. Having sparce Aven Mindcensor could'nt be that bad as Gaddock Teeg in multiples.

Shax, I sided in Envelop because I suspected mass removal (in your case I think it was Pyroclasm). It just works great and is never a dead card (A lot of sorcery around in Blue). The synergy with Gaddock is nice because Force of Will/MB rap backup is no longer possible.

I don't think the deck needs more disruptive creatures. What it needs is perhaps a faster interactive card like Force of Will. A card like Aven, mmm. I do think it would be strong don't get me wrong, but at the cost of removing another strong creature to make place. What card would you take out?

I was looking at some Leylines today. And some traps. Chalice is also free. Then I though, is it really that necessary to look for more free spells in a deck that can turn 1 Gaddock consistently. Isn't that enough these days? I don't see that turn 1 kill like back in the days. And if we do, we can always respond with things like Children of Korlis, Cursecatcher, Mindbreak Trap and so on. Turbotezz is fast, but many cards in the deck directly answer the issue. Teeg just shuts down the deck, Qasali cuts of the TV win route and Revoker just off a resolved Tezz. These bears all cost 2 mana and they will consistently get into play turn 1 in this deck.

Next to the 'oh no! I need to be faster, they might kill me turn 1', there is a this issue of playing against a deck with Dark Confidants and a lot of removal (STP, Bolt, ...). They stick in Gorilla Shaman and Grim Lavamancer in there and you have a problem. This kind of decks are hard to beat and you desperately need Ooze and green mana. Since they also run wasteland this is problematic. These decks aren't played that often, but if you run into them, be advised that this is a weak match up. Maybe this match is fixable with a permanent protective bear like Mother of Runes. Would MOR be viable in a deck with so many creatures? It can cause offset to Jace were they want to bounce your Gaddock or Meddling Mage. I can see a couple of MOR working just to keep your stuff alive and then against Blue, you side them out for Envelop, this time to protect against mass removal instead of spot removal. Can be even useful against Workshop because they all run Metamorph and Slash Panter these days.


I ll be back

Guli

[LotusHead]

I faced Guli's fish deck a few nights ago (great games!), and the Phantasmal guy seemed to be a lot like Phyrexian Metamorph. Guil had plenty of his own targets to copy, and could easily copy any of my dudes (like Welder ), so I have been convinced that Phantom guy is a legit choice (only so many things in 5c shops can target it). 

Guli: Have you considered playing Metamporph in addition to phantom guy for uber-synergy?  Just curious.  My meta isn't fish-infested (sometimes 4/20 decks are fishlikes, sometimes 0/20.)

[Guli]

I faced Guli's fish deck a few nights ago (great games!), and the Phantasmal guy seemed to be a lot like Phyrexian Metamorph. Guil had plenty of his own targets to copy, and could easily copy any of my dudes (like Welder ), so I have been convinced that Phantom guy is a legit choice (only so many things in 5c shops can target it). 

Guli: Have you considered playing Metamporph in addition to phantom guy for uber-synergy?  Just curious.  My meta isn't fish-infested (sometimes 4/20 decks are fishlikes, sometimes 0/20.)

Hey, Lotus, indeed great games. Very hard and tricky welder games making it fun, high level and interactive.

I have considered it but there is already so much going on in the deck, I can't seem to find place for every card. They can go in those Ooze and Edric slots. (so the 3 cc slots) But again, you win some and lose some. The strong thing about Phantasmal is it's cheap casting cost. This matters when they drop a turn 1 Blightsteel without backup.

I don't like Canonist in the SB because you have the meddling mage and teeg main deck. There is the 4th Teeg and I thought running Tormod's Crypt instead. This card should be enough to buy time against a quick storm kill that usually involves Y Will anyway. The card is also serving an important role against dredge. I don't think Ooze is fast enough to stop the quick storm decks but it does the trick against a mid game Y Will while being a game winner against aggro if left alone. I changed the sideboard a little:

SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Energy Flux

[AmbivalentDuck]

So I see your liking the inclusions of Ooze?

In Legacy, I'd rather have an Ooze and a Green Sun's Zenith than two Ooze...but it's not a discussion worth having about Vintage.  Gaddock Teeg is too important to "the plan" to run even a single GSZ in this deck.

Frankly, I think there's some viable debate regarding some unorthodox inclusions like Ancient Ziggurat, Thran Foundry, and the like.  At the least, Demonic Consultation is an upgrade to GSZ.  That's why I'm staying far away from this debate: I don't want to pull a "Slash Panther."

[Guli]

When playing Workshop it is important to keep at least one Qasali around to give Phantasmal Image a good copy target. Phantasmal does copy big robots too in the match up but the general game plan is playing with Noble/Qasali/Vial/Phantasmal then post board side in Trygon Predator, Energy Flux and Nature's Claim. Against Aggro Shop you take out Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage and 1 more card. I changed my deck a lot taking it to the next level. There is another creature that loves to play with Qasali Pridemage while at the same time being tricky with the other bears in the deck. It is a creature that never really got a lot of play but I think it is the right time to give the bear a shot.



Saffi Eriksdotter is a card that has an unique synergy with Qasali Pridemage and Phantasmal Image. Saffi Eriksdotter actually has the ability to RESET Phantasmal Image. Why is this useful you might ask? Well it enables you to fearlessly play Phantasmal Image early game with Revoker and Meddling Mage. You can also copy Noble or Qasali Pridemage early on or later on. The thing is, with the ability the reset, you can chose again with Phantasmal. Sometimes you don't get to play Revoker and/or Meddling before you can play Phantasmal. Say you copied Meddling Mage naming something. Then you play Revoker and Saffi Eriksdotter. When these four hit the board you suddenly have the option to sacrifice Saffi Eriksdotter and target Phantasmal Image. Phantasmal Image will trigger and you will sacrifice it too. Then the delayed trigger of Saffi Eriksdotter  will trigger. You can put Phantasmal Image back into play and choose a creature in play and copy it. With this little trick you can also let them Tinker for a robot. Even with only Phantasmal Image and Saffi Eriksdotter in play you can copy a Robot. Furthermore, Saffi Eriksdotter is a good response to things like Lightning Bolt, Ancient grudge (on your revoker) and Dismember. These are usually the spot removal used by Blue to get rid of your Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg. When Pyroclasm or Perish is played they would really love to clear the board. With Saffi Eriksdotter  this is no longer possible, you will most likely keep a key creature in play making them look for additional solutions which is most likely not possible since they invested tutors and turns in finding the sweeper.

The draw engine will also change. Skullclamp will be the new engine. It is not so hard to understand why. Saffi Eriksdotter, Qasali Pridemage, Phyrexian Revokers, Noble Hierarch can all trade with Skullclamp for  . With two Skullclamp you will be able to recycle (a word I like) Gaddock Teeg or others. Skullclamp is a very nice card against Workshop too. It taps too Wire, enables trading with Lodestone Golem and Panters, add to the clock. A card like Null Rod would seem great against this deck. It is running Aether Vial and Skullclamp plus artifact acceleration. However, this deck also runs Noble and ESG to generate mana and with Qasali on the board 11 cards can get rid of Null Rod. Not to mention that Null Rod is used by Noble Fish, a deck that runs Qasali Pridemage and this makes it more likely for Phantasmal to find Qasali as a copy choice.

Edric is for now out, Trygon goes fully to the sideboard. Ooze is out (main and SB). Choke is out (SB). The mana base has basic lands now were Forest is the key card and then Plains. This made me add Nature's Claim in the SB because Turn 1 Forest is a perfectly acceptable play in this deck against Workshop. The plain is also justified because all the 2cc bears except for Phantasmal can be cast of the white mana. I decided to keep Horizon Canopy and value them like wastelands even if they seem to be doing the opposite.

The list looks great and it plays great. You have acceleration AND a draw engine. You cast highly disruptive bears early on because you just can. Vial must be in the deck to make the Workshop match up favourable. Without Vial, the Qasali tricks with Saffi and Image lose a lot of power. You can copy paste it in Cockatrice and try it out.

Bant 2011: Saffimage by Guli

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

3 Saffi Eriksdotter
3 Skullclamp
3 Gaddock Teeg

4 Meddling Mage
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 AEther Vial

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Horizon Canopy

4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah

SB: 4 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Energy Flux
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Nature's Claim

[Daenyth]

Saffi doesn't work with image. You put her ability on the stack, image goes on the stack in response. Image gets sacked, and Saffi's ability fizzles for lack of a legal target, meaning you lose both.

[Guli]

Saffi doesn't work with image. You put her ability on the stack, image goes on the stack in response. Image gets sacked, and Saffi's ability fizzles for lack of a legal target, meaning you lose both.

What do you mean? Saffi goes to graveyard (sacrifice) and targets Image. Image triggers indeed because Saffi targeted. Then image dies and then comes back to play.

Would be sad if it doesn't work. But when I read your response, I have a lot of doubt ... I have to be sure though. Saffi's trigger is a 'delayed trigger' and doesn't it just resolve the moment it targets a creature? Think about it, if it would not target, phantasmal would not trigger in the first place.

[Blue Lotus]

Saffi doesn't work with image. You put her ability on the stack, image goes on the stack in response. Image gets sacked, and Saffi's ability fizzles for lack of a legal target, meaning you lose both.

What do you mean? Saffi goes to graveyard (sacrifice) and targets Image. Image triggers indeed because Saffi targeted. Then image dies and then comes back to play.

Would be sad if it doesn't work. But when I read your response, I have a lot of doubt ... I have to be sure though. Saffi's trigger is a 'delayed trigger' and doesn't it just resolve the moment it targets a creature? Think about it, if it would not target, phantasmal would not trigger in the first place.

The image dies before saffi's trigger resolves. You do not get it back. Thats how I understand it.

Maybe Spellskite instead to dodge removal. Its easier to cast and can eat multiple lightning bolts. Though Saffi is definitely better vs sweepers if you are running into those.