Primer: Bant Fish 2011

[Guli]

Saffi doesn't work with image. You put her ability on the stack, image goes on the stack in response. Image gets sacked, and Saffi's ability fizzles for lack of a legal target, meaning you lose both.

What do you mean? Saffi goes to graveyard (sacrifice) and targets Image. Image triggers indeed because Saffi targeted. Then image dies and then comes back to play.

Would be sad if it doesn't work. But when I read your response, I have a lot of doubt ... I have to be sure though. Saffi's trigger is a 'delayed trigger' and doesn't it just resolve the moment it targets a creature? Think about it, if it would not target, phantasmal would not trigger in the first place.

The image dies before saffi's trigger resolves. You do not get it back. Thats how I understand it.

Maybe Spellskite instead to dodge removal. Its easier to cast and can eat multiple lightning bolts. Though Saffi is definitely better vs sweepers if you are running into those.

I went for Saffi because he gave so much utility. If the Saffi/Phantasmal does not work then I have to rethink the entire deck. I wasn't looking for just anti-removal, darn.

[Blue Lotus]

You could use momentary blink to do what you intended. You get two uses out of it, but you do not get a beater.

Edit - You also have to leave up mana/don't get to use skullclamp or vial. That being said aggressively playing your clones and then resetting them later is certainly a powerful idea.

I wonder if you have considered chalice of the void? It is the best tinker protection (though clone does shore that up a bit) and just good free mana denial. I know WTF builds ran chalice/vial over null rod because it came out faster than rod could. Personally I never liked it because its power goes way down on the draw. Its not really a nonbo with teeg as you really only want chalice turn one.

[Guli]

You could use momentary blink to do what you intended. You get two uses out of it, but you do not get a beater.

Edit - You also have to leave up mana/don't get to use skullclamp or vial. That being said aggressively playing your clones and then resetting them later is certainly a powerful idea.

I wonder if you have considered chalice of the void? It is the best tinker protection (though clone does shore that up a bit) and just good free mana denial. I know WTF builds ran chalice/vial over null rod because it came out faster than rod could. Personally I never liked it because its power goes way down on the draw. Its not really a nonbo with teeg as you really only want chalice turn one.

I have talked about chalice in this thread. It is a fine card. At its best, it can buy several turns. Gaddock Teeg is not irreplaceable, every card can and will be evaluated.

Saffi is still a strong addition even if it can't reset the clone. But I don't know if it will make the 75 now that I know his delayed trigger fizzles when targeting Phantasmal Image.

Basically Saffi is a copy of Qasali and every sacrifice creature. Maybe Cursecatcher would be a nice addition in the deck. The philosophy goes like this:

Qasali Pridemage is powerfull against Shop.
Curcecatcher is strong against Blue.
You can use both with Saffi's and Phantasmal's as target/copy.

Revokers to shut down moxes who already hit the board while wastelands add the necessary additional pressure.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

3 Saffi Eriksdotter
3 Skullclamp

4 Meddling Mage
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Cursecatcher

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 AEther Vial

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Horizon Canopy

4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah

SB: 4 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Energy Flux
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Nature's Claim

[Delha]

I have talked about chalice in this thread. It is a fine card. At its best, it can buy several turns. Gaddock Teeg is not irreplaceable, every card can and will be evaluated.

Saffi is still a strong addition even if it can't reset the clone. But I don't know if it will make the 75 now that I know his delayed trigger fizzles when targeting Phantasmal Image.

As I mentioned in the rules thread, the window between Saffi's activated ability going on the stack and resolving is a vulnerability to all removal. Not sure if it's worth giving up the body, but Angelic Renewal gets you a similar effect while removing that opening.

Note that this still isn't seamless. People can still exile the creature from your grave with reanimation on the stack (that same vulnerability existed for Saffi as well).

[Guli]

In actual playtesting it has only occurred a couple of time that I would have had the chance to do that trick, which does not work because of basic stack rules. It is actually not that hard to understand, but I was on a hype.

Reality check, Saffi is still very interesting with skullclamps. You clamp the guy attack with your guys, then you sac it to target Cursecather for example (you only spend   untill now!). Then you draw 2 and you pay   to equip Cursecatcher and draw another 2. This can be done with Phyrexian Revokertoo because he has 1 thoughness. Same can be done with Noble Hierach and with Qasali Pridemage because he has a sacrifice ability too. So there is room for debate here in my opinion.

3 Skullclamp
3 Saffi Eriksdotter

This is an engine then? It can generate a lot of card advantage and also make it harder for the opponent to block and attack. What I find so interesting is that Saffi is somehow acting as a second Skullclamp It is in its own way 'copying' clamp. This fits very nicely in the theme of the deck.

Why Cursecatcher? Because I have been doing a lot of mana denial with this deck and I believe Cursecatcher is a very nice way quickly get in there and support the core creature base. It is not an hard counter to Perish or Tinker but if you are focussing on mana denial it may very well be just that. The lack of Null Rod is compensated by 4 Revokers and 4 Phantasmal Images and when you see a window of opportunity you can deliver additional pain with Qasali/Saffi/Phantasmal on their mana base. I am wondering though, maybe it should be 2x Skullclamp and 2x Saffi and add Gaddock Teeg back as a 2 off. Or you can not add Teeg and add Force of Will and make room for 2 additional FoW's. 17 blue would be very hard to make it work in my opinion though.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will

2 Saffi Eriksdotter
2 Skullclamp

4 Meddling Mage
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Cursecatcher

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 AEther Vial
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah

SB: 4 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Nature's Claim

[Wagner]

Saffi and Skullcamp have very bad synergy with Image. Not to forget that.

[saspook]

Mike Noble has found a lot of synergy between Gitaxis Probe and Meddling Mage.  You are basically running 8 Meddling Mage - so Probe might be a good card to test.

[vaughnbros]

phyrexian revoker also works well with gitaxis probe and a singleton vendilion clique seem like they would be pretty good in this build as you would basically be playing with telepathy at that point which seems pretty important instead of just taking shots in the dark at naming cards.

[serracollector]

I've been testing 2-3 Noxious Revival in my fish builds, as it can not just recur critters, but Acall, Time Walk, and Strip/Waste, as well as being a psuedo timewalk buy putting a land/useless spell on top of opponents library.

Time Walk with Edric in play, then revival said time walk is usually GG in the times I have pulled it off. 

Not to mentions its free, and instant, or is in your color range.

Just my 2 cents.

[Guli]

I believe this thread have been very helpful and inspiring. I have been play testing with some of the contributors and some who don't read these forums. I think it is safe to say that this deck should be tried out because it has very good games against key archetypes in the meta. From my play testings I have learned a lot and what cards should definitely be played and what cards are  not. I can't offer a final list, but I can say that the creature base is an extremely effective and strong answer to many decks.

Meddling Mage, Qasali Pridemage, Phyrexian Revoker, Phantasmal Image make Gaddock Teeg look too specific. Gaddock is playable alongside this creature base for sure but I keep wondering and searching for more flexible things like Saffi Eriksdotter. Gaddock is an old man that is very static and straightforward. Sure the effect is powerful but it is pre-set for you hence making it automatically dead in certain match ups, for example Workshop. The difference with the other creatures listed is that cards like Meddling Mage can be good against any deck. You can name whatever is on the table with Revoker, and you can blow up any artifact or enchantment with Qasali Pridemage. Phantasmal can do all these things plus more IF you have targets to choose from. I recognized and named this quality as flexibility. If you are not making the Meddling, Pridemage, Revoker and Image work then your game plan isn't succeeding. Is Gaddock Teeg a plan B here? Is Force of Will necessary to protect you? Believe me you can't get enough of the core creatures in play. There is ALWAYS something to name or blow up. And if not, you are winning, congratulations.

In the light of this flexible and reactive strategy, I sensed that a card like Saffi Eriksdotter would be a more active support. I explained some of the dynamics in my previous posts. One of them did not work, sadly enough (Phantasmal+Saffi does not work) but trying and doing did show me that Saffi is great with Qasali Pridemage and Skullclamp. Before Saffi/Clamp I was testing Edric and I was very pleased with the results. I am also not saying that Gaddock should be dropped entirely. I have a solution for all of the little issues. And it has got something to do with Emrakul. Show and Oath is seeing play and winning stuff. A great time to play Karakas if you ask me.

Karakas is a very strong card with Legends in your deck. I named some until now that could do business haven't I. Gaddock, Edric, Saffi and Kataki are the ones that interest me at the moment but I have been doing some digging. I found a couple other interesting Legends. My intention is being sneaky here. I will elaborate:

I want to run Green sun's Zenith because I think the card would be strong in this deck. Sure it doesn't get Phantasmal, Meddling and Revoker but you are running a full play set of those already and they are flexible. Green Zenith is also highly flexible and with a good toolbox extremely powerful. Don't worry, the problem with Gaddock Teeg will be solved with Karakas and Vial. Yea, neat isn't it... I will bounce my Gaddock, play the tutor and Vial in Gaddock if I feel like it. Can you feel the same kind of energy or better "approach" "synergy" when looking at Phantasmal, the creature base AND the Green Zenith? They are all trying to do the same, respond to whatever needs you have at a given situation.

Karakas will, as I mentioned, bounce back any legendary Oath/Tinker/Show&Tell monsters. It will get destroyed a lot so I think 2x Karakas is not a mistake. Having Karakas in your hand while you have one on the table is not fun, but consider what it gives you too. Against Fish and Workshop you will most likely NEED more than two. But let's not focus that much on this. After a certain amount of games you will eventually have a dead Karakas in your hand. Maybe this is fixable too with Green Zenith, isn't there a green creature that can make use of extra lands in play or in hand? 1 copy of Sylvan Safekeeper can't really hurt.

Let's just say that Green Zenith is a creature ok? It kinda is by the way... A very flexible one. It can be any green creature in your deck.

4x Meddling Mage
4x Phantasmal Image
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Green Sun's Zenith

This way, you are creating slots because you only need to run 1 copy of (you actually run 4 thanks to Zenith, and don't forget that you are now running even more Qasali and Noble, cards that matter in all match ups)

1x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Saffi Eriksdotter
1x Trygon Predator
1x Scavenging Ooze

It would also be possible to run Living Wish but that doesn't put the creatures directly into play. Remember these creatures have been TESTED by me and others on these boards. They are ALL rock solid.

1x Karakas
1x Living Wish (Another flexible card that avoids the double Karakas issue. The sideboard will most likely have Karakas if you need it, Trygons, Kataki and Ooze)


For those who play or played Green Zenith, please share your experiences with it. What are things to look out for? Are there secrets to the card that you unravelled during play testing? What is your toolbox?

[serracollector]

GSZ....my thoughts:

yes it can be any green critter, and in play asap.  Yes you can karakas your teeg to cast it, but when they FOW your GSZ because you bounced Teeg, how you gonna feel then?

Also, it "makes" trygon, and Viridian Shaman, and Selkie all cost 4 mana, which, can, and it hard to do many times.

Also you CANNOT count GSZ as a creature for 1 reason, and its a big one, Spell Pierce.  If you are GSZing, your more than likely tapping out, something i don't like to do anyways, but most def don't want to do with spell pierce in such abundance.

I have tested the card many times in my UG fish deck, running Selkie, Noble, Edric, Trygon, and Ooze, and I can honestly say I am not a big fan of it, even with Edric.  About the "best" play I had with GSZ was first turn trop>GSZ for my Arbor Dryad t1, which I would of preferred to just drop a mox or cast Noble 99% of the time anyways. And even turn 1 you gotta watch out for spell pierce.  Ppl normally dont pierce moxen, but I know I would pierce GSZ, if not to counter it, just to get rid of it (since it shuffles itself in etc).

My 2 cents.

[Guli]

I have only liked Gaddock and Edric as Zenith targets so far, which is not worth it imo. I miss the skullclamp/Saffi engine as it was. So I am swinging them back in.

4 Seachrome Coast
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 AEther Vial
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Meddling Mage
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Gaddock Teeg

3 Skullclamp
3 Saffi Eriksdotter

SB: 3 Trygon Predator
SB: 3 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 4 Null Rod

[AmbivalentDuck]

So, Guli and I were testing on Cockatrice earlier today and this is where we ended up:


4 Horizon Canopy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Meddling Mage
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Trygon Predator
1 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
4 AEther Vial
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
3 Magus of the Unseen
1 Brainstorm
1 Plains
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

I make no promises about any form of playability at a tourney, but it did cute things online.

Specific improvements include Probe so you know what to name with all these permanents with the word "can't" printed on them and the inclusion of Magus.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Why the Plains?  It seems awful with Noble Hierarch in there.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It should probably be an Island.  At one point during testing, Kataki was the only meaningful answer to Workshops.

[Guli]

For me our test games, more than 30 games in a variety of match ups, confirmed that the core creature base is a very sound choice against the meta. For me these are Meddling Mage, Phyrexian Revoker, Qasali Pridemage and Phantasmal Image.

Then, after playing so many Workshop match ups, we both realized how important Aether Vial is in this deck. It must be noted though, Workshop does play Null Rod and Phyrexian Revoker. Therefore I think it is a mistake to play without ESG's. ESG's also performs an important role when you are the Wasteland.dec or Canopy.dec. The reason for this is obviously tempo. It is the combined tempo gains that make this deck so strong. Wasting a land turn 1 while casting Vial or Noble with ESG is strong. But it can only be strong if you can replenish your hand by drawing cards. There are a couple of options to do this, I have explored Edric and Skullclamp until now. They both work nicely.

Maze of Ith should be in the deck. If you have it in your hand and you are playing Blue, then you can play very aggressive with all your cards. Tinker is no longer a threat. Having 4x Phantasmal and 1x Maze of Ith will also increase winning chances against an early Tinker. Don't see Maze as a land, that would be a mistake. It is a must answer when they want to go the Tinker route.

Just like Maze of Ith, Magus of the Unseen is also a must answer when you want to combo with Time Vault or when you want to win with Tinker. At the same time Magus can, with support, own the Workshop match up. In our test games, this was very clear. Another good thing about Magus is that it can tap artifact creatures at end of turn. This makes Edric, if you run it, more powerful. Because this deck is all about cutting off outs for the opponent, Magus of the Unseen fits the deck very well, because he plays out exactly like that.

4x Phantasmal Image
2x Magus of the Unseen
1x Maze of Ith

This is a fair amount of direct Tinker hate, while at the same time being so much more. The only problem I see with Magus of the Unseen is that you need blue mana to use it. Running a basic island does not look very good. Plains is actually pretty logical because that is the common colour between Meddling Mage and Qasali Pridemage, the multicolour cards in the deck.

I would not even run basics. Why would a deck running 4x Vial and 4x Noble Hierarch and 4x ESG be afraid of wastelands? This does not make any sense. The deck should be designed in such a way that, when the opponent activates a wasteland to destroy a land of yours, you should be happy. Even against Magus of the Moon, the deck has a lot of outs. You should be playing out that Savannah or Razorverge Thicket and cast down Noble or Vial without hesitation.

I hope I emphasized the fact that this deck wants to play the tempo game using the land drop rule and revokers to shut down a mox or two. The idea is not to prison them but to do so much damage that they can't play out there cards the usual way. The effect will be tempo gain or 'semi-time walks'. I have won many games like this.

Respecting my initial idea, the evolution and progress, I believe the next cards should be in the first 75.

    4 Horizon Canopy
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Karakas
    1 Maze of Ith

    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    4 AEther Vial

    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Noble Hierarch

    4 Phantasmal Image
    4 Phyrexian Revoker
    4 Qasali Pridemage
    4 Meddling Mage
    2 Magus of the Unseen

    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Gitaxian Probe

SB: 4 Null Rod
SB: 2 Kataki, War's Wage

[Guli]

2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Skullclamp
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

How would this play out guys?  Stoneforge and Saffi like eachother a lot. The equipment like Saffi too

And with Sword of Light and Shadow, you can actually reset Phantasmal IF it would be a necessary play. My reasoning behind this engine is that in practice your bears sacrifice themselves, die, get countered and in this environment SoLS regrowths your bears when it connects. Skullclamp and SoLS on Saffi would make a very nasty late game engine. A 5/3 swining that can draw 2 cards in response to the SoLS trigger and end up in your hand for zero mana. Then if you wish you can draw another 2 if you pay  . Or you just leave it there ready to block, die and draw 2.

[Daenyth]

2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Skullclamp
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

How would this play out guys?  Stoneforge and Saffi like eachother a lot. The equipment like Saffi too

And with Sword of Light and Shadow, you can actually reset Phantasmal IF it would be a necessary play. My reasoning behind this engine is that in practice your bears sacrifice themselves, die, get countered and in this environment SoLS regrowths your bears when it connects. Skullclamp and SoLS on Saffi would make a very nasty late game engine. A 5/3 swining that can draw 2 cards in response to the SoLS trigger and end up in your hand for zero mana. Then if you wish you can draw another 2 if you pay  . Or you just leave it there ready to block, die and draw 2.

It won't work like that. When the trigger is put on the stack, Saffi is not a legal target. You need the sword on another creature and you must sac her before damage is resolved.

[Guli]

2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Skullclamp
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

How would this play out guys?  Stoneforge and Saffi like eachother a lot. The equipment like Saffi too

And with Sword of Light and Shadow, you can actually reset Phantasmal IF it would be a necessary play. My reasoning behind this engine is that in practice your bears sacrifice themselves, die, get countered and in this environment SoLS regrowths your bears when it connects. Skullclamp and SoLS on Saffi would make a very nasty late game engine. A 5/3 swining that can draw 2 cards in response to the SoLS trigger and end up in your hand for zero mana. Then if you wish you can draw another 2 if you pay  . Or you just leave it there ready to block, die and draw 2.

It won't work like that. When the trigger is put on the stack, Saffi is not a legal target. You need the sword on another creature and you must sac her before damage is resolved.

So you need a target for the Sword when it triggers? Otherwise it fizzles? Isn't there room in between the trigger and the combat damage were you can sacrifice Saffi?

[Daenyth]

2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Skullclamp
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

How would this play out guys?  Stoneforge and Saffi like eachother a lot. The equipment like Saffi too

And with Sword of Light and Shadow, you can actually reset Phantasmal IF it would be a necessary play. My reasoning behind this engine is that in practice your bears sacrifice themselves, die, get countered and in this environment SoLS regrowths your bears when it connects. Skullclamp and SoLS on Saffi would make a very nasty late game engine. A 5/3 swining that can draw 2 cards in response to the SoLS trigger and end up in your hand for zero mana. Then if you wish you can draw another 2 if you pay  . Or you just leave it there ready to block, die and draw 2.

It won't work like that. When the trigger is put on the stack, Saffi is not a legal target. You need the sword on another creature and you must sac her before damage is resolved.

So you need a target for the Sword when it triggers? Otherwise it fizzles? Isn't there room in between the trigger and the combat damage were you can sacrifice Saffi?

Under the old rules, you could do this by stacking damage then sac'ing Saffi. This doesn't work since M10.

[Guli]

I am trying out a list with a very powerful SB against dredge and Workshop. I believe the maindeck has a lot of answers to Tinker and TV win conditions while at the same time being strong against Workshop with Vials, wastelands and all the bears. I included brainstorm and a 'normal' mana base. The Probes are important in decision making and setting up the board anticipating several turns ahead. Overall a very strong deck without too much of tricks or fancy stuff.

3 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
2 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

4 AEther Vial
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Meddling Mage
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Phyrexian Revoker

2 Magus of the Unseen
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest

SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3 Ghost Quarter
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Magus of the Unseen
SB: 3 Trygon Predator

[AmbivalentDuck]

Latest progress.  Surgical Extraction >> Gitaxian Probe in a deck like this.

3 Horizon Canopy
2 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 AEther Vial
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Meddling Mage
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Magus of the Unseen
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Magus of the Unseen
SB: 3 Trygon Predator
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt

Anyways, again, cute things in testing, hard to say what holds IRL.

[Guli]

Questions in my head:

- Do we run enough lands? 17 is low, but we don't want to get land flooded. Any thoughts anybody?

- Is 3x Magus of the Unseen justified? I stated before that I think the Magus fits well in our plan. But still, are there better alternatives? Gitaxian Probe didn't cut it, we found something better. So how about it?

- The Sideboard needs to be clearified A_Duck. What do we bring for what in which match up. I would love to hear a detailed explanation.

[serracollector]

As i mentioned in the message I sent you, Trygon>>>>Magus.  ESPECIALLY if your playing Surgical Extraction.  Swing with trygon kill sphere, tangle, smoekstack, lodestone, revoker, etc. etc.  Then Extract it, gg against MUD.  Same with TV against most big blue, or when blocking Blightsteel with Imaged Blightsteel (rfg it while the shuffle effect is on stack, I beleive you can do this).  Just my thoughts.

[Daenyth]

As i mentioned in the message I sent you, Trygon>>>>Magus.  ESPECIALLY if your playing Surgical Extraction.  Swing with trygon kill sphere, tangle, smoekstack, lodestone, revoker, etc. etc.  Then Extract it, gg against MUD.  Same with TV against most big blue, or when blocking Blightsteel with Imaged Blightsteel (rfg it while the shuffle effect is on stack, I beleive you can do this).  Just my thoughts.

BSC's shuffle effect is a replacement effect and does not use the stack. It will not be in the grave at any time.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Questions in my head:

- Do we run enough lands? 17 is low, but we don't want to get land flooded. Any thoughts anybody?

- Is 3x Magus of the Unseen justified? I stated before that I think the Magus fits well in our plan. But still, are there better alternatives? Gitaxian Probe didn't cut it, we found something better. So how about it?

Hard to say.  Let's keep testing.

- The Sideboard needs to be clearified A_Duck. What do we bring for what in which match up. I would love to hear a detailed explanation.

"Blue"
-4 AEther Vial
+4 Flusterstorm

Dredge
-3 Magus of the Unseen
-1 _________ (Probably Image since they have Firestorm and Darkblast)
+3 Ghost Quarter
+1 Tormod's Crypt

Brown
-4 Surgical Extraction
-4 Meddling Mage (two colors, no single call ever cripples them)
-2 Edric (since they can block and don't draw multiple times per turn, plus 3 mana can be hard)
+3 Kataki, War's Wage
+1 Magus of the Unseen
+3 Ghost Quarter
+3 Trygon Predator

[Guli]

Interesting, from Morphling.de: Fish deck running 4x Magus of the Unseen WITHOUT basic island. Total land count is 17. Next to that the deck has Vial and 3 moxes.

8. Omar Nieto in Badalona 16.07.2011

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
4 Magus of the Unseen!!!
1 Time Walk
4 Voidmage Prodigy
4 Meddling Mage
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
SB:4 Leyline of the Void
SB:3 Path to Exile
SB:3 Pithing Needle
SB:3 Trickbind
SB:2 Umezawa's Jitte



Then a top 8 with 4x Phantasmal Image! Interesting is Ninja (you can use it to reset Phantasmal Image plus its draw). Also the maindeck Devout Witness, seems techy. List has 18 lands plus 3 moxes

4. Amadeus Kurz in Frankfurt 30.07.2011
"Gelber Sack"

3 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Phantasmal Image
2 Devout Witness
4 Meddling Mage
4 Sage of Epityr
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Stifle
1 Time Walk
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
SB:1 Devout Witness
SB:2 Disenchant
SB:3 Flusterstorm
SB:2 Path to Exile
SB:1 Plains
SB:3 Ravenous Trap
SB:3 Relic of Progenitus



A thrid example of Fish that top 8 ran 4x Flusterstorm maindeck. A card that I liked in the SB vs Storm decks and vs Blue in general. But 4x, isn't that card dead in non Blue match ups? Flusterstorm was also in SB of the previous Fish list but not in the one running 4x Magus of the Unseen. So the next list has also no moxes or lotus and got TOP 2. Makes me wonder a lot... List has 18 lands but also runs Preordain and Brainstorm to fix draws. Interesting deck.

2. Adam Subirana in Badalona 30.07.2011

3 Null Rod
1 Brainstorm
4 Cursecatcher
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Preordain
4 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Meddling Mage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Strip Mine
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
SB:1 Batterskull
SB:4 Nature's Claim
SB:3 Serenity
SB:3 Stoneforge Mystic
SB:2 Swords to Plowshares
SB:2 Umezawa's Jitte

[heiner]

I played 3 times with gush against variants of this dec and to be honest wasn't impressed. The major problem of the bear strategy is that mage, teeg, magus, Image each only hit a single or a small set of cards, if I can built a mana base there are still enough plays I can make to find a solution. In contrast, Null Rod (in the way it makes ALL spells more expensive), spheres, counterspell hit everything!

I still think that the best fish strategy is heavy mana denial, counters and only the best hate bears that are available: mage, quasali, hierarch, confidant

of course in the other matchups bears may be more efficient

[Guli]

I played 3 times with gush against variants of this dec and to be honest wasn't impressed. The major problem of the bear strategy is that mage, teeg, magus, Image each only hit a single or a small set of cards, if I can built a mana base there are still enough plays I can make to find a solution. In contrast, Null Rod (in the way it makes ALL spells more expensive), spheres, counterspell hit everything!

I still think that the best fish strategy is heavy mana denial, counters and only the best hate bears that are available: mage, quasali, hierarch, confidant

of course in the other matchups bears may be more efficient

We really need more information. The exact list for starters!

As for my list, actually I should call it OUR list because A_Duck has been actively helping out in the evolution of this deck, we are safely splashing in  . Safely means that we side in black cards in those match ups were we know we won't be dealing with wastelands. Which means Blue and Dredge. Blue is very diverse but we see Blue as Ritual Storm, Oath, Jace/Gush, Jace/Confidant, East coast, ... and other versions.

Our SB looks like this:

SB: 2 Kataki, War's Wage (Workshop)
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter (Workshop, Dredge)
SB: 3 Trygon Predator (Workshop, Oath, Aggro)
SB: 4 Bojuka Bog (Dredge)
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer (Dredge)
SB: 2 Thoughtseize (Blue, Oath)

[Guli]

After testing close to 30 games versus Metalworker/Shop (Dragon) which contains things like Wurmcoil Engine, Duplicant, Trikes, Battlespheres, Karn, ... and testing also close to 20 games versus a more aggro versus without Metalworker but with Null Rod and Panters, Precursor, we decided that this deck really needs Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile. Not only in those match ups, but also against Jace/Confidant control with or without Trygon, you will be happy to hold a removal spell.

We tested versions with 2x Edric and without Edric. The early disruption is pretty good but you are burning out your hand damn fast. This is good, this means you are hurting your opponent and you are buying precious time. However, the clock is slow and we really don't approve Tarmogoyf in this list. We tried things like Stoneforge and Magus of the Unseen to keep more control. All fine but this deck just wants to beat and keep casting more of those beaters. You want your creatures to draw cards with Edric while they beat down and disrupt your opponent. This would mean they are working double shifts, as it should be. All the more reason to run cards that clear the way.

So we got beaters, removal spells to clear the way, edric that draws you cards once the way is clear and you get to cast freshly drawn bears. This is pretty much the plan now. In between you wasteland, cast surgical to nail key cards and make Meddling Mage plus Phyrexian Revoker more effective.

The mana base packs three City of Brass now. Next to a good amount of fetchlands and duals. We don't run basic lands, because we are prepared with Noble and ESG. For the moment we dropped Aether Vial. This makes us vulnerable against an early Chalice@2, but we run Nature's Claim in the sideboard for this (and Oath). We aggressively attack Workshop's mana base with 5 strip effects pre-board and 8 post board. We also attack mana with Revoker and STP (if they run Metalworker). This puts Shop in a tight spot because they can't just fix their mana problems like Blue decks could with the digging. The pattern is that Workshop can't really wage the mana denial war. Going for the crucible/wasteland lock as the Workshop deck is usually not a great idea versus this list unless you are already winning. You can't let the bears and Edric connect and seal you off and get additional lands/moxes/nobles/esg's. So in other words, we don't bother protecting our mana base, we just run acceleration to bypass and attack their manabase instead! Aether Vial is a fine card that fits in this strategy, but we wanted to see if the deck can hold ground against spheres without Vial. My personal conclusion is not definite but I have to say that it seems very possible to skip Vial, even in the Workshop match up, and this means that you don't need to run it in my book. You still can, but you can also use those slots for a couple extra lands, removal and Edric.

The list looks like this now:
(18 lands)
3 City of Brass (A_Duck suggested Ancient Ziggurat, but I decided that City is just fine. The point is that it fixes a lot of mana base issues)
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta (This and Scalding Tarn was A_Duck's idea; opening with this could fool your opponent that you are playing some Blue control deck)
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

(7 free accelerators)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Noble Hierarch

2 Trygon Predator
3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest (4x is too much, and 2x has been too few in my opinion)
4 Meddling Mage
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Swords to Plowshares (I copy your Dark Confidant and then STP it ok?)
2 Path to Exile

SB: 4 Thoughtseize (Works very nice with Meddling, Extraction and Revoker)
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Scrubland
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 Ghost Quarter
SB: 2 Nature's Claim

In the dredge match up, be sure to get rid of those Bloodghasts and Narco's with Surgical's when you can early game. If you see too many bridges early and you are worried, then go for the bridges. But remember that you have other solutions versus bridges like Phantasmal Image and Qasali Pridemage. Also Noble blocking means bridges are gone. So when you see a Bloodghast in play, don't hesitate and STP it instantly. If you can rfg Ghasts, Narco's with STP/Path then you can Surgical Extract other stuff of course. With 8 strips you will hit their Bazaar sooner or later and if you can keep your Jailer alive with Meddling mage your winning. You should name Chain of Vapor most likely but Firestorm is also dangerous. Remember that you can copy Jailer with Phantasmal Image. Also, be aware of Darkblast.

Duress effects are to improve the Combo/Blue matchup. Don't forget to side in the Scrubland!






More will follow...

Guli/A_Duck