SCD Liliana of the Veil

[madmanmike25]

From mtgsalvation.com

Planeswalker - Liliana  1BB

+1: Each player discards a card.
-2: Target player sacrifices a creature.
-6: Separate all permanents target player controls into two piles. That player sacrifices all permanents in the pile of his or her choice.
[3]

Not an insane card by any means, but it still could see some play in vintage.  First decks I can think of are Dark Times and any other SuiBlack shells.  Dark Confidant can easily compensate for the discard aspect, not to mention if the rare occasion another flip might kill you next turn you can always target yourself.  Very interesting, good job making a semi-decent Planeswalker that isn't blue or able to be splashed in a blue deck.

[DubDub]

As I said in the Rumors thread I think this version of Lili is pretty good.  I had hoped for more power with a  cost, but actually she may be more playable in this form with a CMC that doesn't compete with Jace TMS.  Jace TMS and Pernicious Deed have been besties in Legacy for a while now, and I could see this Liliana fitting right in there as another one-of in place of a Diabolic Edict (Deed misses Planeswalkers, making for a perfect pairing for BUG-Control type decks).  I played a Legacy deck this past weekend which had a 2/2 split of Smother and Diabolic Edict for removal, and I could definitely see replacing one Edict with this card.  That deck had Lotus Cobra to make  no problem, though that cost might be an issue for other decks.

With so many Pro-Everything, Pro-Colored-Spells, and Indestructible dudes running around edict effects are making a comeback in the Eternal formats, and Liliana offers an edict with a potential upside attached.  She can also be played preemptively, and Edict an Iona later Oathed or Reanimated into play.

One issue with her over Diabolic Edict is the widespread use of Jin-Gitaxias as a reanimation target.  By the time you activate her (even if you already played her) the opponent will have drawn 7 cards, probably still enough to put away the game.

Also, with the specter of Stoneforge Mystic-Batterskull looming now over Legacy the Edict effect loses some power.  She would have been much better positioned in the Tarmogoyf dominated era of a few years back.  Making an opponent sacrifice the germ token only to have them bounce and re-cheat the Skull into play is probably enough to make one suicidal.  This might be another reason to pair her with Deed, since Deed for two will kill both the Mystic and the Germ in one go.

[Meddling Mike]

Not an insane card by any means, but it still could see some play in vintage.  First decks I can think of are Dark Times and any other SuiBlack shells.  Dark Confidant can easily compensate for the discard aspect

It's kind of funny, but I was actually thinking this was better in a deck without a draw engine. You empty your hand early and you can start getting value off the +1 ability. I guess my biggest problem with the card is that I can see situations where it's literally useless or worse than useless. They might have no creatures in play or cards in hand, but you have cards in hand, now you basically have to pass on even adding a counter to her because you don't want to discard your card. Even the -2 ability seems a bit too easily circumvented. You only need to hit them once with a Blightsteel Colossus, so you can set it up by time walking or fairly untapping your time vault to get two subsequent turns. I realize that the same can be said for Jace's -1 ability, but because this ability doesn't target a specific creature it can also be circumvented by just getting any other creature into play. I don't see it making a splash, but I could be wrong.

[Guli]

I really like the fact that it is at 3 cc. I would like to see more Planeswalkers at this cost.

[Wagner]

Seems like a good fit for a Pox deck... if those were still around.

[zimagic]

Not an insane card by any means, but it still could see some play in vintage.  First decks I can think of are Dark Times and any other SuiBlack shells.  Dark Confidant can easily compensate for the discard aspect

It's kind of funny, but I was actually thinking this was better in a deck without a draw engine. You empty your hand early and you can start getting value off the +1 ability. I guess my biggest problem with the card is that I can see situations where it's literally useless or worse than useless. They might have no creatures in play or cards in hand, but you have cards in hand, now you basically have to pass on even adding a counter to her because you don't want to discard your card.

It's a permanent discard outlet with benefits for reanimator. While it's nowhere near the most efficient obv. It's also potentially stripping your opponent of the cards that can beat you. I don't think that dredge per-se has a place for her but it's a prime example of a deck that wants it's own hand in the graveyard. Find a similiar strategy that can reliably cast her and she could be good.

[serracollector]

For t1, it may see some use, but in t2, first turn Bird, turn 2 her, turn 3 tezz gambit, turn 4, ur choice sac all your lands or all your creatures.....seems descent to me.

[MaximumCDawg]

On balance, it seems like Liliana doesn't do any one thing better than any other card, but she provides versitility at an affordable price.  That is, depending on what you need, she's either a discard outlet / hand disruption, or removal.   The ultimate probably won't matter in Vintage anywhere near as much as other formats.   She's castable off a dark ritual, but the double black makes tossing her in a deck splashing black tricky.

I think this is the kind of card that can make it in Vintage, where space in the deck is at such a huge premium.  It's just barely cheap enough, and it can play two very different roles depending on what you need.  I dare say that, in a deck with Rituals, it might make sense to swap out Diabolic Edict for Liliana Vess.  Not a strict upgrade, but probably better on balance.

What I'm saying is I don't see a new archetype springing up around her, but like JTMS, she is versitile enough that I would not be suprised to see her do well in existing archetypes.

[Darkenslight]

For t1, it may see some use, but in t2, first turn Bird, turn 2 her, turn 3 tezz gambit, turn 4, ur choice sac all your lands or all your creatures.....seems descent to me.

Hell, even eliminating a color/set of duals seems like a worthy play.

[Daenyth]

For t1, it may see some use, but in t2, first turn Bird, turn 2 her, turn 3 tezz gambit, turn 4, ur choice sac all your lands or all your creatures.....seems descent to me.

Hell, even eliminating a color/set of duals seems like a worthy play.

We should probably discuss a more realistic scenario for it, rather than one where the opponent makes no relevant plays in the first 4 turns.

[vaughnbros]

her + ability provides a discard outlet and hurts your opponent, but it only adds 1 loyalty
her - ability is pretty good at killing bobs, bsc, and lodestone, which are probably the 3 most powerful threats against any deck considering running her.
her ultimate does not win the game and can in fact have less of an effect than her + and her -
If her last ability won the game id say she would be a good singleton in decks like dragon, reanimator, and madness, however due to her ultimate being weak shes really just Necrogen Mists spliced with Chainer's Edict.

[serracollector]

I been testing this card recently, and in the current meta, I must say she has been great with Chains of Mephistopheles.  I've tried several different decks with her, including Dark Depths, and Madness (which I really like her and chains of mephistophels in), but right now outside of:

3 Liliana
4 Chains
4 Dark confidant

I'm not sure what is the best direction to take her in.

In dark depths I was running Vampire Hexmages and Animate deads, so that if forced to discard a Vamp, I can just animate it back ftw.
In madness I  was testing  basking rootwalla, Tarmogoyf, and Ancient Grudge/Lava dart.  This was actually my favorite one.

I could also see if being quite usefull in WGD decks, but I will admit that I am not an expert on this type of deck.

What do you guys think?  Chains of Mephistophels and Liliana is pretty near a lock outside of TV/Vault, and you can always run Null Rod/Ancient Grudge for that.

[madmanmike25]

Is it time to bust out Chains+Anvil of Bogardan and drive people insane?

Btw, why would you play Animate Dead over Unearth?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Chains of Mephistophels and Liliana is pretty near a lock outside of TV/Vault

So it's a two card Uba Mask?

[serracollector]

Its a 2 card uba mask that doesnt require a workshop, doesn't Force you to discard, but you can and to your advantage, and it can (and has in several games) made my opponent choose between their power cards and their mana.  In my mono black version i have held back dures/ts til I got her to 7 counters, then Duress/TS watever was in their hand, then made them sac a pile many times.  With people only play 8 mana producing lands, and usually 2 sea, 2 trop, 2 volc, its really easy to cut them off a color.  And I played animate over Unearth cuz I also ran 1 Iona, and 1 Terst, so I could ditch them and animate them.  More fun than good probably, not sure tho, still testing as I said.  With Basking Rootwalla and Goyf in my B/R/G madness build with ancient grudges it has been really well tho.

[Daenyth]

Can you post a list?

[serracollector]

Once I get a good list going, I will post.  Right now the biggest problem is getting the BB for Lil consistently without the use of Dark rituals in the 3 color build.  And I really don't wanna add subpar cards like birds of paradise and such.  

EDIT: Actually I have given up on this.  As long as people can go y will, tinker, time walk, I doubt control will ever have a place in MTG.  People don't need hands to win, they just need to topdeck a tutor.  Blightsteel has officically made all chances of a control deck nil.  Good luck for those who wish to continue trying.

[JuzamDjinn]

Once I get a good list going, I will post.  Right now the biggest problem is getting the BB for Lil consistently without the use of Dark rituals in the 3 color build.  And I really don't wanna add subpar cards like birds of paradise and such.  

EDIT: Actually I have given up on this.  As long as people can go y will, tinker, time walk, I doubt control will ever have a place in MTG.  People don't need hands to win, they just need to topdeck a tutor.  Blightsteel has officically made all chances of a control deck nil.  Good luck for those who wish to continue trying.

Not your day eh? If Tinker-BSC is such an issue for you, play hate

[ELD]

Chains + Anvil isn't a 2 card Uba Mask.  It's like a 2 card Possessed Portal.  You don't get to your main phase with any cards if you started with an empty hand.  Any card drawing doesn't net more cards.  Of course, Fact or Fiction trumps that plan, since you're not drawing cards. 

[MaximumCDawg]

EDIT: Actually I have given up on this.  As long as people can go y will, tinker, time walk, I doubt control will ever have a place in MTG.  People don't need hands to win, they just need to topdeck a tutor.  Blightsteel has officically made all chances of a control deck nil.  Good luck for those who wish to continue trying.

Why on earth are you giving up on Liliana because of a card that Liliana answers...??

"I cast Lilana of the Viel and spend a few turns crushing your hand."
"Whoops I topdecked a Tinker! Blightsteel, pass!"
"Liliana demands a sacrifice!"

If they've got a Time Walk handy as WELL as Blightsteel, then, well, you didn't do your control job very well, did ya?

[Lemnear]

EDIT: Actually I have given up on this.  As long as people can go y will, tinker, time walk, I doubt control will ever have a place in MTG.  People don't need hands to win, they just need to topdeck a tutor.  Blightsteel has officically made all chances of a control deck nil.  Good luck for those who wish to continue trying.

Why on earth are you giving up on Liliana because of a card that Liliana answers...??

"I cast Lilana of the Viel and spend a few turns crushing your hand."
"Whoops I topdecked a Tinker! Blightsteel, pass!"
"Liliana demands a sacrifice!"

If they've got a Time Walk handy as WELL as Blightsteel, then, well, you didn't do your control job very well, did ya?

Tinker into Time-key, ya dead.
Tezz 1.0, ya dead
Jace 2.0, likely dead
Y. Will, ya dead
Slash Panther, likely dead

etc.

I guess that's that Serra tried to explain. Tinker for Blightsteel is dumb with Lilly on the board, won't happen. So this is real no argument. The point is that you can barely defend you from such plays because Lilly eats your hand too. So you are forced to have control by permanents or have none

[serracollector]

It went more like:

Made opponent discard hand, had full board control, made oppoent sac all dual lands, opponent has mox jet, mana crypt, and island in play.  I trigger discard with Iona, they cast mystical, get Y will, cast will, recast Lotus and Tinker (from the first time I stopped Blight), recast time walk, swing and win anyways.  Unless your deck is playing 4 Leyline (which IMO makes it very clunky with Confidants), and you get said Leyline opener, its really hard to "hate out" y will>tinker>time walk.  All of that is possible, and in big blue easy to set up while black is going "discard one, I play a swamp, go".

[Delha]

It went more like:

Made opponent discard hand, had full board control, made oppoent sac all dual lands, opponent has mox jet, mana crypt, and island in play.  I trigger discard with Iona, they cast mystical, get Y will, cast will, recast Lotus and Tinker (from the first time I stopped Blight), recast time walk, swing and win anyways.  Unless your deck is playing 4 Leyline (which IMO makes it very clunky with Confidants), and you get said Leyline opener, its really hard to "hate out" y will>tinker>time walk.  All of that is possible, and in big blue easy to set up while black is going "discard one, I play a swamp, go".

What were you doing while you had full board control? It sounds like you had a good 4-5 turns of the blue mage doing nothing and squandered it.

Also, what deck were you running that had Iona AND Liliana in it?

[AmbivalentDuck]

It went more like:

Made opponent discard hand, had full board control, made oppoent sac all dual lands, opponent has mox jet, mana crypt, and island in play.  I trigger discard with Iona, they cast mystical, get Y will, cast will, recast Lotus and Tinker (from the first time I stopped Blight), recast time walk, swing and win anyways.  Unless your deck is playing 4 Leyline (which IMO makes it very clunky with Confidants), and you get said Leyline opener, its really hard to "hate out" y will>tinker>time walk.  All of that is possible, and in big blue easy to set up while black is going "discard one, I play a swamp, go".

What were you doing while you had full board control? It sounds like you had a good 4-5 turns of the blue mage doing nothing and squandered it.

I'm sitting here wondering why grave hate isn't main.  It shores up the dredge matchup and lets you deal with "discard good stuff, tutor -> yawg will."

Also, what deck were you running that had Iona AND Liliana in it?

Obviously it's a reanimator build.  It's not unintuitive that if you're going to be discarding, it may as well be reanimation targets.

[Delha]

It went more like:

Made opponent discard hand, had full board control, made oppoent sac all dual lands, opponent has mox jet, mana crypt, and island in play.  I trigger discard with Iona, they cast mystical, get Y will, cast will, recast Lotus and Tinker (from the first time I stopped Blight), recast time walk, swing and win anyways.  Unless your deck is playing 4 Leyline (which IMO makes it very clunky with Confidants), and you get said Leyline opener, its really hard to "hate out" y will>tinker>time walk.  All of that is possible, and in big blue easy to set up while black is going "discard one, I play a swamp, go".

What were you doing while you had full board control? It sounds like you had a good 4-5 turns of the blue mage doing nothing and squandered it.

I'm sitting here wondering why grave hate isn't main.  It shores up the dredge matchup and lets you deal with "discard good stuff, tutor -> yawg will."

Also, what deck were you running that had Iona AND Liliana in it?

Obviously it's a reanimator build.  It's not unintuitive that if you're going to be discarding, it may as well be reanimation targets.

Yeah, but Control Reanimator? With Iona on the board yet not locking out either Black or Blue? WTF.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Obviously it's a reanimator build.  It's not unintuitive that if you're going to be discarding, it may as well be reanimation targets.

Yeah, but Control Reanimator? With Iona on the board yet not locking out either Black or Blue? WTF.

I'm not disputing that.  It's even worse: Liliana and Iona on the board without the opponent being locked out or dead from Iona damage.

[TheWhiteDragon]

He said he discarded Iona...not reanimated it.  My guess is he drew crap for a few turns and had to keep discarding to suppress his opponent.  Then when he top-decked swamp, and his opponent top-decked mystical, it was bad new bears.

[Delha]

He said he discarded Iona...not reanimated it.  My guess is he drew crap for a few turns and had to keep discarding to suppress his opponent.  Then when he top-decked swamp, and his opponent top-decked mystical, it was bad new bears.

Looking back, I guess that makes sense. Very poorly phrased, but whatever.

At the end of the day though, that still points towards a questionable logic chain. I don't dispute for a second that "We both discard, play a Swamp, go" is an unacceptable pattern for 3-4 turns in Vintage. If a deck is consistently running into that problem though, I think the problem list with the decklist rather than the format/meta. If Tinker/Walk is constantly wrecking you, why aren't you running instant speed removal?

[nedleeds]

Chains + Anvil isn't a 2 card Uba Mask.  It's like a 2 card Possessed Portal.  You don't get to your main phase with any cards if you started with an empty hand.  Any card drawing doesn't net more cards.  Of course, Fact or Fiction trumps that plan, since you're not drawing cards. 

So does Bob. In fact any deck with Chains should run Bob ... since his "draw" is missed by Chains.