Blue Lotus
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« on: September 14, 2011, 12:28:22 pm » |
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I figured I start a new thread b/c my GW list is radically different from the GW 2010 no null rod list.
I truly believe GW is a house in the current meta. Wizards has restricted all the bomb spells and now all things broken in vintage, card advantage and win conditions, require permanents. GW has the most efficient removal suite and strong lock pieces to go with it.
Here is what I have been playing:
GW 2K11
4 Noble Hierarch 4 Aven Mindcensor 4 Qasali Pridemage 4 Kataki, War's Wage 4 Gaddock Teeg 3 Fauna Shaman 1 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares 4 Nature's Claim
4 Null Rod 4 Root Maze
4 Horizon Canopy 4 Savannah 3 Forest 1 Plains 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl
SB: 4 Caustic Wasps SB: 4 Icatian Javelineers SB: 3 Pithing Needle SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
The removal:
4 Swords 4 claim
The best removal in the game. It is too efficient to not play. You may think you are buying you opponent an extra turn by gaining them 4 for every claim and 2 to 11 life with swords. But this really isn't the case. You are always up in mana on the exchange. They may have spent a whole turn resolving an oath only to have you claim it and resolve another lock piece.
The lock pieces:
4 Null Rod 4 Root Maze
Null Rod just wins games.
Root Maze is extremely well positioned in the meta now. As people stretch their mana to play ancient grudge, they play more fetch lands. Fetch lands are so god awful with root maze on the table they are essentially dead as mana producers. In addition, it hoses the gush-bond engine by itself and makes slash panther the worst juggernaut vintage has ever seen. Root maze also generates mana for you. If an opponent has 3 mana out you better leave up something to deal with land, vault, key when you pass the turn. If you have root maze out, you can tap out with impunity. Finally, it makes tinker targets CIPT, making tinker not a viable spell to stabilize late game. All of these things add up to make root maze amazing in the current meta.
The creatures:
4 Gaddock Teeg I was never big on Teeg, even when gush was around the first time. But now that he keeps jace off the table and for that alone is quite strong. Also he trades with panther and revoker, which is very important when chalice at one is on the table.
4 Kataki I have always loved Kataki. Additional mana denial and tinker protection (makes tinker cost 1 more) and just a house against shops.
4 Mindcensor is very stong as added tinker protection, comes in under tangle wire. Also having a bunch of fliers is also just good w/ exalted guys.
4 Pridemage is a must
4 Noble hiearch ditto. getting to three on turn two is great and the point a turn it does is important.
3 Fauna Shaman are your card advantage. Recycling your extra legends and hierarchs to get pridemages and knight of the reliquary is very good. Better than survival in this deck in that it can't be spell pierced or resisted by thorn and attacks and blocks when you don't want to activate. Plus, you are not abusing your GY with shaman by using things like vengevine or genesis so you never need to activate more than once a turn.
1 Knight of the reliquary is a a one card strip lock that doubles as a finisher. Very strong, makes you have a hard lock with null rod or kataki.
VS Oath:
You crush oath. Their mana is really bad. They get punished by root maze heavily due to their reliance on fetches. You have eight answers to oath and vault/key and four to tinker.
VS Shop:
Chalice at one hurts you, Fauna shaman is a house. Turn all of your creatures into qasali pridemages and they can't keep up. Do not keep a land light hand. Revoker on hierach can really hurt. Boarding: -4 aven mindcensor +4 caustic wasps This swings the match up into your favor. They either play spheres and get blow out by your cheap removal or play chalices and lose to a resolved Wasp. Not even metamorph is an answer due to your eight creatures with exalted. Much better post board.
VS Confidant based control:
Worse than oath. You have to exile confidant ASAP and this lowers your answers to tinker. Boarding - 4 hiearch + 4 javelineers. Better, but still a tough match-up
VS Gush: Root maze shines, as do your 8 removal spells for fastbond. If they play creatures, trygon and confidant are the annoying ones. It is pretty hard for them to resolve trygon. Bring in javelineers if they have targets.
VS Ichorid: Bad. You auto lose G1 and g2/3 is favorable but they only need one and you need two.
In conclusion I would bring this list if you are expecting shops, and oath and gush to combat the shops, and not much ichorid. I'm at like 40% match win vs ichorid, but maybe I just suck at the match up. I've been hitting gravetroll with surgical extraction, maybe there is a better choice?
Let me know if you have any questions. I know there a lots of options when building a GW deck but this is what I think is best for now. The new Null Rod enchantment will probably be played over null rod as it makes kataki that much better.
Also I'm sure there are some typos so if anything doesn't make sense ask about that too.
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« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 01:33:54 pm by Blue Lotus »
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Eastman
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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2011, 02:22:09 pm » |
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I like the list. I agree that GW is pretty underappreciated. It is good.
This probably goes without saying, but the new 1W null rod would likely be an auto-include here, as it does what null rod does while dodging hurkyl's recall. Maybe you would run 2 and 2 to dodge echoing truth too, not sure. http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=42913.msg591969;boardseen#new
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2011, 02:42:34 pm » |
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I think I would run four. I almost never double up on null rod as is because of hurky's, ancient grudge, and just the utility of them wasting a removal spell when you have another rod in hand. Also, Kataki + null rod slows you down and the combination comes up frequently. With the new card that is no longer a problem. Definite improvement.
The mana may have to be changed a bit. It is nice to be able to cast null rod off all of your lands (wasteland included). The need to slant your mana towards green also may make the enchantment harder to cast considering you want root maze and hierarch turn one.
However, Kataki turn 2 is almost never a problem so I can't see why the enchantment would be either.
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« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 02:46:51 pm by Blue Lotus »
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madmanmike25
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Lord Humungus, Ruler of the Wasteland
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2011, 04:13:31 pm » |
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GW is solid, and a blast to play. A few questions: Strictly speaking Leonin Arbiter comes down a full turn sooner than Aven Mindcensor. This is true because we don't always get a turn 1 Noble. With that in mind, is the flash/flying worth being a turn slower? Think about stopping fetchlands and Tinker a turn sooner. I think you should have at least 1 Leonin Relic-Warder since you have Fauna Shaman. Your only other answer to a resolved Tinker -> BSC is 4 Stps. Btw, I ran these guys in place of Null Rod and never once had a problem. Relic-Warder is a really solid card in the meta. My issue with Rod (still) is that it is redundant and can't beat. Speaking of Fauna Shaman though, it seems kinda slow to me. Has that not been the case? 4x Stp and 4x Natures Claim is a beast. Really, really good spot removal. No Xantid Swams in the sb for the control matchup?!?! 
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2011, 04:52:46 pm » |
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I am really not a fan of leonin arbiter. You already hose fetches with root maze, so that is a little redundant but mostly turning off fauna shaman and knight hurts the arbiter the most. I wanted to avoid the WW creatures (True believer, grand abolisher, and LRW) because of the amount of green one drops and no fetches you play. Thats not to say they are uncastable but your consistency is your hallmark. Not being able to play a creature turn two because you went plains waste or forest whatever could be a problem. That being said I haven't really tested the WW creatures so the fear could be unfounded. Fauna shaman is amazing. Definitely not too slow I suggest you try it in any deck with redundant creatures (mindcensor, legends, hierarch, other fauna shaman). I wouldn't suggest playing it to find lock pieces, I would play it after you have a lock or two down and need to get rid of repeats. Also just go get knight as that guy ends the game. As far as a one of relic warder, If you have an active shaman, you can just go get mindcensor. LRW might be nice in the board instead of javelineers as additional answers to tinker targets and shops. But Javelineers are helpful in the ichorid match-up. It might be interesting to get rid of 3 mindcensors and run a tool box with those slots. However, mindcensor is just so good you want it early and often. In summary I think if you add  guys the deck changes a lot, you have to play less basics which is part of the strength. But this is another reason why GW is great; there are many ways you can take the deck and be successful. Just don't take out 4 claim 4 swords.
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swawagon
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Shawn Brook Williams
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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2011, 10:50:43 am » |
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I know you talked about not wanting WW, but PREACHER is pretty awesome if you have the ability to cast him. Another Fish, Tinker, even Emrakul answer. Not horrible against Dredge either. And would be nice to rip off a Bob or Trygon which seem to be everywhere.
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Team ICEHOLE
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Guli
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« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2011, 12:53:11 pm » |
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I like how you adopted my idea of using some form of 'recycling redundant cards' for the decks benefit. Fauna does this nicely.
That being said, how often do you get the basic plain without fetchlands? Why even play plains? Use Karakas in that slot.
*Would there be an ingenious way to 'cycle' extra Silence of Stone's and Root Maze's? Or somehow get value out of these cards even if you hit multiples.
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« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 02:00:43 am by Guli »
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2011, 10:12:41 am » |
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I would play your extra enchantments if you have the mana. No one is playing aura of silence or mass enchantment removal, only nature's claim. Even though two silence in stone is 'redundant' two on the board is much harder to remove than two null rods. I'm currently experimenting with: 4x Green suns zenith 1x dryad arbor 4x noble hierarch. 1x Teeg Thats eight 1 drop accelerators into turn two mindcensor/ knight (if you are feeling bold) or hate bear/stone + removal/root maze. The only issue is that GSZ + dryad arbor is  , your third mana has to be white. Consistently getting turn two mindcensor has been a problem, I'll have to tinker with the mana before I share a list. Edit - Why Karakas? Its non-basic, you can't have more than one out, and its ability is irrelevant against any deck but iona oath (I'm not sure you want to bounce a vendillion clique and let them rebuy the ability) which you are already very strong against. Am I missing something?
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« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 09:29:04 am by Blue Lotus »
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nineisnoone
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The Laughing Magician
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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2011, 02:04:28 pm » |
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I would play your extra enchantments if you have the mana. No one is playing aura of silence or mass enchantment removal, only nature's claim. Even though two silence in stone is 'redundant' two on the board is much harder to remove than two null rods. I'm currently experimenting with: 4x Green suns zenith 1x dryad arbor 4x noble hierarch. 1x Teeg Thats eight 1 drop accelerators into turn two mindcensor/ knight (if you are feeling bold) or hate bear/stone + removal/root maze. The only issue is that GSZ + dryad arbor is  , your third mana has to be white. Consistently getting turn two mindcensor has been a problem, I'll have to tinker with the mana before I share a list. Edit - Why Karakas? Its non-basic, you can't have more than one out, and its ability is irrelevant against any deck but iona oath (I'm not sure you want to bounce a vendillion clique and let them rebuy the ability) which you are already very strong against. Am I missing something? I would have thought ESGs would be a consideration. You could also just run a Llanowar Elf/Birds of Paradise. Not particularly exciting, but blocking a flyer is not irrelevant and Elf can attack for 1 with other creatures. against Shops, sure. But whenever you hit aggro with shops the answer is Trisk, which deals with Wasps. Not as popular as he once was, but still definitely around. also they pack the black removal spell (2 black phyrexian mana and 1 colorless i believe) a lot now too. also, i think something should be said about your vulnerability to Wasteland as well. I'm not huge on knight, I'd rather have a singleton Life from the Loam which would still let you recur (but not tutor) and rebuild your mana post waste. Solid list, though. Personally, I'm kinda iffy on Root Maze though. I don't think it's THAT good aside from against Gush (and maybe strip/lock), but I don't think that's in contrast to what you are saying really. I'm not sure if you are looking for another lock, but I always try to shove suppression field into these kinds of decks. However, I always found that that took away Wastes which wasn't good. And as a lark, I kinda want to try out Armageddon in this deck. Turn 1 Noble Turn 2 Stoney Turn 3 Armageddon I would laugh.
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I laugh a great deal because I like to laugh, but everything I say is deadly serious.
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ilpeggiore
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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2011, 06:04:44 pm » |
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Hi,
I'm currently playng a similar deck but with a different approach :
- tons of creature
that's because redundancy is not that bad if it means a lot more damages.Only problem is I have no more room for destruption. Having access to first turn relic-warden helps a lot with the only - but relevant- exception of cotv.
Creatures [31] 3 Kataki, War's Wage 2 Leonin Relic-Warder 3 Aven Mindcensor 3 Gaddock Teeg 3 Qasali Pridemage 3 Tarmogoyf 1 Scavenging Ooze 4 Elvish Spirit Guide 4 Leonin Arbiter 4 Noble Hierarch
Instants [3] 3 Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts [6] 3 Stony Silence 1 Lotus Petal 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Emerald
Lands [20] 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland 3 Ghost Quarter 4 Horizon Canopy 4 Savannah 1 Karakas 3 Razorverge Thicket Sideboard 2 Tormod's Crypt 2 Relic of Progenitus 4 Nature's Claim 1 Jitte of Umezawa 1 Sword of Fire and Ice 1 Scavenging Ooze 2 Vexing Shusher 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
The deck is a prison, focused on shutting down enemy's manabases using 8 strip effect, 7 anti-search effect, 3 rod-like and 5 artifact removal ( + 2 kataki). Mana and lock pieces all way down until the winning tarmo (or ooze). With 7 firts turn acceleration the deck usually starts vomit walking lock pieces since turn 1.
I really dont like reliquary because is being slow. Root maze is one of my favourite cards but losing the coin trasform it in a bad card very often. Its role is covered by leoni arbiter ( as both target fetches).
Karakas is there because saves your gaddock, helps ws iona, emrakul and can remove a blockin vendilion.
Not a deck that can do spectacular things but a solid machine that performs well against mud&co.
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2011, 01:44:48 am » |
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I agree that GW is very good at the moment, and I love playing it.
I'm not really fond of Root Maze, though admitedly I've not really tested it. As someone mentioned it's quite bad on the draw and it's a bad topdeck, though you could argue that if you're in topdeck mode you're probably losing, but that doesn't make the statement untrue.
I think you're a bit light on lands. Have that been an issue?
Also 4 Nature's Claim seem a little overkill. Have they really been that good?
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bax
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2011, 04:44:20 am » |
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I think you're a bit light on lands. Have that been an issue?
I tend to agree this is why i prefer the unpowered version that has more lands in it compare to what Ilpeggiore posted above. Also 4 Nature's Claim seem a little overkill. Have they really been that good? Fact is that Claims are the only way out this deck has vs CotV@2.
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ilpeggiore
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2011, 09:31:59 am » |
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Twenty lands and seven accelerations between ESG and artifacts.. I think it's the right number. I'm sure to drop something on turn1 (or hierarc+wasteland)
4 maindecked Claims are a lot overkill but 4 claims between main and side ? They are needed against every brown deck you could face.
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madmanmike25
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Posts: 719
Lord Humungus, Ruler of the Wasteland
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« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2011, 10:31:32 am » |
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Has anyone still been testing this? I'm liking this turn 1 play; Land, ESG, -> Leonin Arbiter. I'm still not sure why any list would run the 1st Mindcensor over the 3rd-4th Arbiter.
Relic Warder is still doing work every time I cast him. WW, but Well Worth it.
I still haven't tested ooze, but it seems really slow to me.
I like that the last list posted has a ton of creatures, but having 8 lands (Strip, Waste, GQ) makes me question the ability to get the right colored mana you need. I think that GQ is aiming a bit too high and can be too dependent on hindering search effects. I can see using it if you are in a field of 80% Shops and Ichorid, however.
Lastly, I feel that G/W got robbed with Stony Silence not being a 2/2. It would have been soooo good for this deck if it could only swing. Decks like this don't need 'speed bumps' that arguably slow you down as well because they don't advance your own gameplan of doing 18-19 dmg before the opponent can achieve brokenness or recover.
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2011, 11:24:09 am » |
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I have been playing, and testing, GW a lot recently and I love the deck.
I feel the same way as you, madmanmike, that Stony Silence should have been with legs but at least it's an upgrade to Null Rod.
Most recently I've been playing a deck with 4 Wasteland, 1 Strip Mine, 2 Ghost Quarter, 4 Leonin Relic Warder, 2 Aven Mindcensor as well as Phyrexian Revoker and Leonin Relic-Warder and I've actually been the most dissapointed with Revoker and Leonin Relic-Warder. They often just sit in my hand and waits for a target. I have also played with Kataki main deck, but that seems a bit overkill with all the other artifact hate in the deck.
Basically I feel the deck has a good game against Dredge and Mud but lacks a bit against blue based decks. Obviously Gaddock Teeg is the MVP in almost every game, but I feel a need for some innovation to be able to have a good game against blue based decks.
Does anyone have any thoughts?
We do have the option of including Thorn of Amethyst and Glowrider, but the latter is probably too slow unfortunately. I by the way think that 4 ESG is essential to the archetype.
I definitely think that we "need" a new 1 drop.
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ilpeggiore
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« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2011, 12:21:51 pm » |
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I still haven't tested ooze, but it seems really slow to me. its no the fastest card in the format, but it needs only G to be a decent beater. It's no hate. It's a beater with bonuses. Helps you recover life when lightening are coming at you. If You think at it as a walking tormod, you'll be disappointed. I like that the last list posted has a ton of creatures, but having 8 lands (Strip, Waste, GQ) makes me question the ability to get the right colored mana you need. In no-proxie environment, 12 bicolor land is a common configuation. But with the 2 lotus color screw is uncommon. that's bax's manabase (top8 in milan) : 1 Strip Mine 2 Karakas 3 Razorverge Thicket 4 Ghost Quarter 4 Horizon Canopy 4 Savannah 4 Wasteland 1 karakas, 1 GQ of difference, (supported by ESG and hierarc 4x). One white mana source of difference. GQ can fight vampiric and mystical tutor vs blue. And YES, the number of stax in italy is really high. Lastly, I feel that G/W got robbed with Stony Silence not being a 2/2. dunno. Being an enchantment makes it really resilient. I'd liked a 1/1 hexproof ! @ StanleyAugust 4 relic warden is too much! Their number should be based on number of qasali, stp and nature's claims you play. 2-3 is clearly better. I'm not fan of revoker (cause it's an artifact) but its redudant with stonysilence, I wont play more than 2.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2011, 12:43:37 pm » |
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I like Ooze because it can swipe cards out from under Snapcaster Mage. To me, that's some added value right there. Not to mention it helps game 1 vs. Dredge.
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2011, 12:46:10 pm » |
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Oops, I meant 4 Leonin Arbiter - not 4 Leonin Relic-Warder.
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nineisnoone
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The Laughing Magician
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« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2011, 01:18:26 pm » |
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Lastly, I feel that G/W got robbed with Stony Silence not being a 2/2. It would have been soooo good for this deck if it could only swing. Decks like this don't need 'speed bumps' that arguably slow you down as well because they don't advance your own gameplan of doing 18-19 dmg before the opponent can achieve brokenness or recover. Nah. As people have said, creature removal would make it so much more vulnerable. Ooze is okay, but it feels very #60ish. I would count it's biggest bonus as helping deal with Snapcaster and late Yawgwill plays, which is fine, but feels like you could do better in the slot.
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madmanmike25
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Lord Humungus, Ruler of the Wasteland
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« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2011, 02:28:19 pm » |
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Nah. As people have said, creature removal would make it so much more vulnerable. What people? The people who actually play these types of decks or those that play the types of decks a 2/2 Null Rod would harm??? I play G/W often enough and i would LOVE the 2/2 body. Be specific if you want to argue that case. What removal are you talking about? I'm trying to see some logic to that. In fact I could argue that Claim is a super common sb card and a 2/2 creature would be immune to it. In a deck with so many creatures that are threatening, do you think they will have removal for all of them? How many sb slots have Pyroclasm and Massacre nowadays? I'm seeing a lot of 0's and few 1's. But going by the few pyroclasms one could never succeed with this archetype, and that most certainly is not the case. P.S. Anyone else want to chime in on the 2/2 Null Rod as being a bad card? I'm curious as to what others think, seems like two for and two against so far.
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ilpeggiore
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« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2011, 03:17:17 pm » |
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a 2/* rod for 1W would be awesome. And I'll probably play some green leyline.  . Sure, it would be better. But we have an enchantment. It's slightly, not so much more resilient ( for what I see there are more bolts than trygon/claims).
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serracollector
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« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2011, 03:45:55 pm » |
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Ooze IMO has gained alot since the inclusions of Mental Misstep, and Snapcaster mage to a lot of decks. Me personally I would play 4 mental misstep in a GW build anyways. The life for cost shouldn't matter as you other than Horizan Canpy you don't ever really damage yourself, and it stops all the early plays until you can get a hate bear into play.
Ooze also stops: Crucible>waste/strip Goyf Welder Tricks Y will Dragon and to a MUCH lesser extent Dredge (if you get an early strip on bazaar, turn 2 ooze with ESG etc)
and this is in addition to Snap/Regrowth.
Also, and probably not too often (f0r now) but it stops surgical extraction. I personally would not be surprised to see a deck SB 2 pyroclasm/2 surgical extraction against fish. That way if you counter the first goyf/teeg u can Extract it. I personally have had games with my snapcaster deck where I went Pyroclasm, Extract w/e critter, then Snap, Extract a 2nd critter, you grab a Goyf and a Teeg, or maybe a Mindcenser/Arbiter, and now your chances of winning against GW have went up exponentially. Removing 8 of your 16-20 hate bears in 1 turn (not to mention w/e else died to Pyro that turn) is a huge swing in your favor for a minimal amount of cards/resources (4 mana + 4 life with 3 cards, pyro/snap/extract, for 16+ cards is mass CA IMO). Oooze helps stop all these kind of shannagins, and it can also NORMALLY live through Pyroclasm.
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nineisnoone
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The Laughing Magician
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« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2011, 06:21:04 pm » |
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a 2/* rod for 1W would be awesome. And I'll probably play some green leyline.  . Sure, it would be better. But we have an enchantment. It's slightly, not so much more resilient (for what I see there are more bolts than trygon/claims). I do think I spoke incorrectly, you don't really get more resilience from it as, yes, Claim. But there is plenty of bolts, swords, dismembers, Fire/Ice, Darkblast (imo very underrated). And definitely, Null Rod anything is going to be good.
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2011, 02:07:04 am » |
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I kinda like the idea of Mental Misstep. For some reason I haven't tested that out. It should be good against blue decks and helps against Swords, Lightning Bolt, Nature's Claim, Chain of Vapor, Thoughtseize etc. Should be good against Dredge as well.
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bakofried
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2011, 04:27:43 pm » |
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Is anyone still testing this deck? If so, could I see what the current list looks like?
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2011, 05:22:35 pm » |
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Is anyone still testing this deck? If so, could I see what the current list looks like?
I would still advocate the original posted list except -1 teeg +1 plains and straight swap of null rods for stony silence. But I haven't been playing for a while. It seems that everyone is using mental misstep. I'm not sure how that effects this deck. When I tested, none of the decks I played were running it. Also, snapcaster rebuying removal seems painful. Thats like a three for one. Again, I would warn against leonin arbiter. Without any accel, he comes down turn two. This is too slow to stop fetches. Furthermore, knight of the reliquary is the most powerful effect in the deck. Strip mine -> waste, waste, waste and then he is a 10/10. Not fair. You do not want to hinder finding her (fauna shaman) and activating her.
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bakofried
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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2011, 05:58:09 pm » |
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I'm wondering how the testing on Green Sun's Zenith turned out. I play G/W Maverick in legacy, and I was at least able to take out a powered Oath deck with it. So really, I'm wondering if there's a possible port to vintage. I think it's doable. Thoughts? It would incorporate a Zenith package, a possible Stoneforge package [to minimize disynergy with Stony Silence, the possible package would be Batterskull, Mortarpod, Skullclamp (too powerful not to run with so many X/1's)] and multiple KotR's, along with the manabase to play along with it (full set of Savannahs, fetches, basics, to reliably be able to fetch out Wastes and Strips). Maybe Enlightened tutor in the main or side?
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« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 07:57:10 pm by bakofried »
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2011, 01:32:05 pm » |
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let me know how it goes. I abandoned testing b/c of the blowout potential of spell pierce on gsz. But if lots of people drop spell pierce for MM then GSZ could be stronger.
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2011, 11:06:35 am » |
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So this is the new list im running:
4 Noble Hierarch 4 Swords to Plowshares 3 Nature's Claim 2 Beast Within 1 Dismember 4 Kataki, War's Wage 3 Knight of the Reliquary 3 Fauna Shaman 4 Qasali Pridemage 4 Root Maze 4 Stony Silence 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl 1 Black Lotus 4 Horizon Canopy 4 Savannah 4 Forest 3 Plains 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 1 Aven Mindcensor
I cut teeg altogether because he just isn't very good. His ability to stop gush is nonexistent. You can't double up on him, and gush is free, so an opponent can spend all his mana bouncing teeg and still draw lots of cards and generate lots of mana. All he was doing was keeping jace off the table but really any 2-3 creatures on the board do that.
I added more removal to help with the creature bases of control decks. Dismember is obv great. Beast within is solid and can destroy a land, a jace, or any troublesome permanent. It also gives an out to chalice at one > chalice at two game one, which isn't irrelivent. Finally, It makes your land a creature on their EOT which can help get there. Neither can be countered by MM which is very important.
I went up to three knights. It helps negate beast within and the card is really, really good. Slow, for sure, but if you can stall to get it going especially with stony or kataki out, you just can't lose.
Finally I added more lands. 23 mana sources, 27 if you count hierarch. This was a reaction to Mental misstep. The cheap removal allowed you to stumble on mana. But isn't really the case anymore. The faster you get to two mana the faster MM becomes dead.
The land count may be too high though. I might cut a land for a leonin relic warder. I also may cut a knight. Time will tell.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2011, 12:17:13 pm » |
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I enjoy GW fish. I actually also run a GUW and a GBW version. things I have found are:
1) tarmgoyf is often just better than knight as it is faster, also counteracts a 3/3, and is not so dependent on the right colors cropping up.
2) I find at LEAST 2 relic warders are necessary. They stop oath just as well as nature's claim, but they also take care of tinker->BSC. You have claims and plows, but warders are a 2/2 beater and handle both situations in a single card. Plow can also be dead at times, so running 4 isn't thrilling. Warder is NEVER dead since he can snag a mox and join your army at the least. Since you have beast within too, I think claims loose a bit of bang. I'd cut 1-2 plows and 1-2 claims to add 3+ warders.
3) plows timewalk your opponent. You don't want to give them life. Claims ALSO do this, so warder helps remove the artifact and do damage. I suggest path to exiles over plows. Not all decks are running a ton of basics, and if they see you are fish, they are certainly cracking fetches for basics anyway - leaving dual lands in their deck. With all your answers and disruptive critters, the extra land probably won't hurt as much as giving them extra life - if they even can get a land.
4) Fauna shaman appears to suck. It is disadvantage...ties up your mana and costs a creature to get a creature. with wardens in the deck, fauna gets a definite boost as it basically tutors for disenchant...but you want to drop your army, not hold one to pitch to fauna. fauna itself is a non-attacker if you use the ability and then have cost your mana to cast the critter you get. That's -2 attacks. One might be cute, but green sun's zenith is infinitely better since you have mostly green critters.
5) You might want to contemplate running 4x MM. Yes it sucks against you, but it also sucks for the opponent too. Stoping their tutor for tinker, plow, fastbond, ancestral, etc is REALLY nice when you can do it for free or cast off a noble.
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"I know to whom I owe the most loyalty, and I see him in the mirror every day." - Starke of Rath
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