GW 2K12ish

[Guli]

God dude, what the hell does it matter...

Dark Confidant combined with Thalia is probably the most solid answer to board sweepers. Most likely they will have to tap out (or almost tap out) to play the Pyroclasm (Massacre might be risky choice because of Gaddock). By the time that happens you should have got a card or 2 from Dark Confidant. The plan is to replay with new threats with the help of Caverns, hence leaving them in the same situation. Another good thing about Dark Confidant usage is that it does not die to Perish or Virtue's Ruin.

Mental Misstep will probably the best answer to spot removal cards like swords to plowshares and lightning bolt.

[Blue Lotus]

CAN A MAN BE CURIOUS IN THIS WORLD

Anyway, I don't think cavern will be very good in GW. First, your mana is fine (you only play 2 colors). Second, what are you going to name?

Qasali is a cat wizard
Teeg is a kithkin advisor
Kataki is a spirit
Thalia is a human soldier
Scavenging ooze is an ooze
Goyf is a goyf
Relic warder is a cat cleric
Kotr is a human knight

So there isn't much overlap.

I think a specially crafted tribal deck is where this is best suited. UWB humans perhaps (meddling mage, icatain javelineers, confidant, champion of the parish, ninja of the deep hours (though cavern doesn't really do much with that guy) true believer, preacher many more.

At first I thought this would be busted in 5c wizards (Confidant, snapcaster, grim lavamancer, qasali pridemage, voidmage) but I think that since it can't activate voidmage prodigy and lavamancer it loses its luster.

Edit -
Or possibly...CATS

Leonin Relic Warder
Qasali Pridemage
Leonin Arbiter
Jungle Lion
Savannah lions
Steppe lynx

OK probably not.

Maybe clerics?

Canonist
Fiend hunter
Geist of Saint Traft
Glowrider
Grand Abolisher
Leonin Arbiter
Leonin Relic-Warder
Mikaeus, the Lunchbox
Mother of Runes
Preacher
True Believer

Basically, if I'm playing this land I want it to say "creature spells you cast for the rest of the game are uncounterable" otherwise you just get a land that taps for colorless and that is no bueno.

[Prkchpsndwiches]

@Guli

Played this list for a few games. First impressions.

GW Beats PURE HATE

4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Devout Witness

4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Stony Silence


4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal

4 Ghost Quarter
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Karakas

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Stony Silence

Deck has some blowout games.  Getting Arbiter and Kataki out T1 is pretty devastating to the blue opponent relying on fetches and moxen.  Redundancy is nice.

Deck feels light on green mana.  Especially when I bring Ooze in from the SB. I've mulled to oblivion at times getting only 1 or no mana sources to cast mys spells.  The 9 colorless prob has a role to play in that.

[madmanmike25]

CAN A MAN BE CURIOUS IN THIS WORLD

I'm pretty sure there are other sites completely dedicated to 'curious men'.  Just sayin.

[Blue Lotus]

There's a web forum dedicated to people making typographical aberrations and other people wondering why?

[Guli]

@Guli

Played this list for a few games. First impressions.

GW Beats PURE HATE

4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Devout Witness

4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Stony Silence


4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal

4 Ghost Quarter
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Karakas

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Stony Silence

Deck has some blowout games.  Getting Arbiter and Kataki out T1 is pretty devastating to the blue opponent relying on fetches and moxen.  Redundancy is nice.

Deck feels light on green mana.  Especially when I bring Ooze in from the SB. I've mulled to oblivion at times getting only 1 or no mana sources to cast mys spells.  The 9 colorless prob has a role to play in that.

-1 Karakas
+1 Forest

[Guli]

CAN A MAN BE CURIOUS IN THIS WORLD

Anyway, I don't think cavern will be very good in GW. First, your mana is fine (you only play 2 colors). Second, what are you going to name?

Qasali is a cat wizard
Teeg is a kithkin advisor
Kataki is a spirit
Thalia is a human soldier
Scavenging ooze is an ooze
Goyf is a goyf
Relic warder is a cat cleric
Kotr is a human knight

So there isn't much overlap.

I think a specially crafted tribal deck is where this is best suited. UWB humans perhaps (meddling mage, icatain javelineers, confidant, champion of the parish, ninja of the deep hours (though cavern doesn't really do much with that guy) true believer, preacher many more.

At first I thought this would be busted in 5c wizards (Confidant, snapcaster, grim lavamancer, qasali pridemage, voidmage) but I think that since it can't activate voidmage prodigy and lavamancer it loses its luster.

Edit -
Or possibly...CATS

Leonin Relic Warder
Qasali Pridemage
Leonin Arbiter
Jungle Lion
Savannah lions
Steppe lynx

OK probably not.

Maybe clerics?

Canonist
Fiend hunter
Geist of Saint Traft
Glowrider
Grand Abolisher
Leonin Arbiter
Leonin Relic-Warder
Mikaeus, the Lunchbox
Mother of Runes
Preacher
True Believer

Basically, if I'm playing this land I want it to say "creature spells you cast for the rest of the game are uncounterable" otherwise you just get a land that taps for colorless and that is no bueno.

The idea is not to make a theme deck, the plan is to force your first bear through. This will start the clock and disruption unchecked. And since we don't play bad bears, your first bear will be Teeg, Thalia, Arbiter, or Kataki versus an early chalice 2...

Still, I agree with you to pick a little bit of the same types. The list I play now has some wizard and cats. But first impressions are to just name whatever you really want to get through. I am playing Confidant, Aven, Pridemage (all wizards). I also play Arbiter for now which is a cat with Pridemage, so there are some types already overlapping without much effort. I think it is not that crucial because the land gives  and besides pridemage and teeg it can be used. Thalia and Teeg are the best turn 1 you can get with Cavern. The most optimal play is to burn you first Cavern to Teeg. Second you can assess the situation and make the correct call. With Bob's I saw a lot Caverns during the course of the match, making it super interesting.

A fellow player said that wasteland.deck could be a problem. I partly agree, if you play something like Noble and you use the Quarters in addition to wastelands, you will be in a great position to win the wasteland war. This is why I run Arbiter. However, there are probably other solutions to this. Confidant or Noble are both great anyway to find or generate mana.

[Blue Lotus]

That's a fair point, maybe it is worth it to play this as a 'one time only' kind of deal.

If you are playing esg's it is especially crucial to resolve what ever you are blowing on cards to accelerate out. But then again is it even worth it? Lets say you blow an esg and lead out with teeg, and name kithkin (or advisor). You next creature with a no colorless mana cost (pridemage, relic warder) now effectively costs one more, as you have made a land drop that does nothing for you.

Playing it in a deck like the one you just posted seems like a good plan, where the only no colorless mana cost guy is teeg.

BTW 'no colorless mana cost' needs a shorthand term. 'Coloreds only' is all I can think of  

[Guli]

That's a fair point, maybe it is worth it to play this as a 'one time only' kind of deal.

If you are playing esg's it is especially crucial to resolve what ever you are blowing on cards to accelerate out. But then again is it even worth it? Lets say you blow an esg and lead out with teeg, and name kithkin (or advisor). You next creature with a no colorless mana cost (pridemage, relic warder) now effectively costs one more, as you have made a land drop that does nothing for you.

Playing it in a deck like the one you just posted seems like a good plan, where the only no colorless mana cost guy is teeg.

BTW 'no colorless mana cost' needs a shorthand term. 'Coloreds only' is all I can think of  

Teeg, Thalia, Kataki, Aven, Dark Confidant are my main considerations and focus right now when it comes to creature choices.

I am not sure but a rainbow mana base might be a strong option. (City of Brass, Ancient Zigurat, Cavern of Souls, Tarnished Citadel) I am also pretty sure you want 4x Mental Misstep. With all the life loss Death's Shadow comes to mind as a nice follow up to the early bombs you played. It can also swing things in your favour when you are being beaten down by a Trygon with exalted or a Golem. Also survives Massacre, Clasm, Perish,...)

You probably want Noble in there with wasteland package. Again, I am not sure about Arbiter and Quarters because it takes up a lot slots. I think Noble and Confidant will be fine. I would also suggest running jet, pearl and emerald and maybe even petal. If a rainbow manabase is used, I would also like to look into red and blue. A.R. and Walk are adds for sure (just don't go heavy on the zigurat 1 or 2 max)

You are right about the Relic and Pridemage. But that is why you just run multiple rainbox lands and multiple caverns. And you don't need those cards that soon, you rather want to cast other bombs. And if you are playing shops and run the cats, just name cats Still, I acknowledge your concern, I noticed too. But I don't see it as a very big problem.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It seems silly to discuss a rainbow land in a thread limited to two colors.  Once you start talking about Ziggurat and Cavern in the same deck, you're almost forced to narrow in on Wizards (Bob, Tiago, Pridemage, Mindcensor, Meddling Mage, Yixlid Jailer, etc) or clerics.  Goblins and Merfolk might be respectable, but both have to be contorted to abuse Cavern such that we don't presently know how they should eventually look.

[credmond]

It seems silly to discuss a rainbow land in a thread limited to two colors.  Once you start talking about Ziggurat and Cavern in the same deck, you're almost forced to narrow in on Wizards (Bob, Tiago, Pridemage, Mindcensor, Meddling Mage, Yixlid Jailer, etc) or clerics.  Goblins and Merfolk might be respectable, but both have to be contorted to abuse Cavern such that we don't presently know how they should eventually look.

Goblins is probably the easiest deck to add the card to. Take whatever Type 1 goblin deck you already have. Lose 4 lands. Add 4 caverns. Name "goblin" when you play a Cavern.

[serracollector]

I say just add 4 muscle sliver, 4 sinew sliver, 4 crystallline sliver, and 4 harmonic sliver.  Make the land worthwhile.

I agree wizards or goblins or merfolk is the way to go.  Elves could be interesting as well.

There might be other tho as well.  I mean the land does make any creature uncounterable.  Maybe we could make a sweet monkey deck. 

Anyways, I don't think it fits well in 4 x Bomb Legends.dec

[Nydaeli]

It's really too bad Legend isn't a creature type anymore!

[Guli]

Does any of you think it would be worth the effort to implement land bounce tricks? I have some creative ways to do this but it seems far fetched. The point is to reset Cavern and give whatever next threat your holding free passage.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Does any of you think it would be worth the effort to implement land bounce tricks? I have some creative ways to do this but it seems far fetched. The point is to reset Cavern and give whatever next threat your holding free passage.

I think the question you have to ask is why you aren't just playing 5c Wizards or 5c Humans.  You shouldn't need to reset Cavern.

[Guli]

Does any of you think it would be worth the effort to implement land bounce tricks? I have some creative ways to do this but it seems far fetched. The point is to reset Cavern and give whatever next threat your holding free passage.

I think the question you have to ask is why you aren't just playing 5c Wizards or 5c Humans.  You shouldn't need to reset Cavern.

I disagree and at the same time agree

You don't have to design your entire deck to Cavern. Just disable FoW and other Broken things with teeg or thalia is already a lot value. It would be interesting as a SB card vs landstill and other control to have a way to reset Cavern. Wouldn't you agree it would break the match up?
Second, you name wizard for Pridemage, Aven, Dark Confidant and you can name Human for Thalia, Noble and Dark Confidant. This is the part I agree with

Then, I ll just bravely throw it in here and welcome all critics like a man... I am working on a formula with Sylvan Safekeeper and Caverns. He is a Human Wizard so that fits. I anticipate that people will run some bolts and stp and maybe darkblast to get rid of small creatures. The third card is Life from the Loam. And I am thinking of adding a small crop rotation toolbox in addition. Crop Rotation should enable some nice resets too while also able to get strip, bazaar and maybe other lands like Karakas and Maze of Ith...

[xouman]

A deck that plays 4 ESG wants to drop a quickly menace. Cavern helps doing so: your first menace will enter unanswered, and you will have the mana to play it. Seems an autoinclude in any deck with > 25 creatures (outside ichorid and mud, suposing they play 25 creatures).

[credmond]

Does any of you think it would be worth the effort to implement land bounce tricks? I have some creative ways to do this but it seems far fetched. The point is to reset Cavern and give whatever next threat your holding free passage.

I think the question you have to ask is why you aren't just playing 5c Wizards or 5c Humans.  You shouldn't need to reset Cavern.

I disagree and at the same time agree

You don't have to design your entire deck to Cavern. Just disable FoW and other Broken things with teeg or thalia is already a lot value. It would be interesting as a SB card vs landstill and other control to have a way to reset Cavern. Wouldn't you agree it would break the match up?
Second, you name wizard for Pridemage, Aven, Dark Confidant and you can name Human for Thalia, Noble and Dark Confidant. This is the part I agree with

Then, I ll just bravely throw it in here and welcome all critics like a man... I am working on a formula with Sylvan Safekeeper and Caverns. He is a Human Wizard so that fits. I anticipate that people will run some bolts and stp and maybe darkblast to get rid of small creatures. The third card is Life from the Loam. And I am thinking of adding a small crop rotation toolbox in addition. Crop Rotation should enable some nice resets too while also able to get strip, bazaar and maybe other lands like Karakas and Maze of Ith...

This card fits right in to Bazaar Beats as is. Crop Rotation or Life from the Loam or Knight can grab the card when desired. Dumping Riftstone Portal into the yard with Bazaar fixes the mana issue of Caverns making it a Green White land.

[Guli]

Does any of you think it would be worth the effort to implement land bounce tricks? I have some creative ways to do this but it seems far fetched. The point is to reset Cavern and give whatever next threat your holding free passage.

I think the question you have to ask is why you aren't just playing 5c Wizards or 5c Humans.  You shouldn't need to reset Cavern.

I disagree and at the same time agree

You don't have to design your entire deck to Cavern. Just disable FoW and other Broken things with teeg or thalia is already a lot value. It would be interesting as a SB card vs landstill and other control to have a way to reset Cavern. Wouldn't you agree it would break the match up?
Second, you name wizard for Pridemage, Aven, Dark Confidant and you can name Human for Thalia, Noble and Dark Confidant. This is the part I agree with

Then, I ll just bravely throw it in here and welcome all critics like a man... I am working on a formula with Sylvan Safekeeper and Caverns. He is a Human Wizard so that fits. I anticipate that people will run some bolts and stp and maybe darkblast to get rid of small creatures. The third card is Life from the Loam. And I am thinking of adding a small crop rotation toolbox in addition. Crop Rotation should enable some nice resets too while also able to get strip, bazaar and maybe other lands like Karakas and Maze of Ith...

This card fits right in to Bazaar Beats as is. Crop Rotation or Life from the Loam or Knight can grab the card when desired. Dumping Riftstone Portal into the yard with Bazaar fixes the mana issue of Caverns making it a Green White land.

Yea, you got the loams, bazaar tech, all you need is safekeeper and Caverns. Can't counter my stuff, can't target my stuff. Knight of the Reliquary works nice with Safekeeper too.

[credmond]

Does any of you think it would be worth the effort to implement land bounce tricks? I have some creative ways to do this but it seems far fetched. The point is to reset Cavern and give whatever next threat your holding free passage.

I think the question you have to ask is why you aren't just playing 5c Wizards or 5c Humans.  You shouldn't need to reset Cavern.

I disagree and at the same time agree

You don't have to design your entire deck to Cavern. Just disable FoW and other Broken things with teeg or thalia is already a lot value. It would be interesting as a SB card vs landstill and other control to have a way to reset Cavern. Wouldn't you agree it would break the match up?
Second, you name wizard for Pridemage, Aven, Dark Confidant and you can name Human for Thalia, Noble and Dark Confidant. This is the part I agree with

Then, I ll just bravely throw it in here and welcome all critics like a man... I am working on a formula with Sylvan Safekeeper and Caverns. He is a Human Wizard so that fits. I anticipate that people will run some bolts and stp and maybe darkblast to get rid of small creatures. The third card is Life from the Loam. And I am thinking of adding a small crop rotation toolbox in addition. Crop Rotation should enable some nice resets too while also able to get strip, bazaar and maybe other lands like Karakas and Maze of Ith...

This card fits right in to Bazaar Beats as is. Crop Rotation or Life from the Loam or Knight can grab the card when desired. Dumping Riftstone Portal into the yard with Bazaar fixes the mana issue of Caverns making it a Green White land.

Yea, you got the loams, bazaar tech, all you need is safekeeper and Caverns. Can't counter my stuff, can't target my stuff. Knight of the Reliquary works nice with Safekeeper too.

Safekeeper seems better as sb tech for games 2 and 3 when decks bring in their spot removal. Plus, Safekeeper, while strong in some matchups, is really soft in others.

[bluemage55]

I've been testing the following list with some good results:

3  Plains
1  Arid Mesa
2  Flooded Strand
1  Marsh Flats
4  Savannah
1  Strip Mine
4  Wasteland
4  Windswept Heath

1  Black Lotus
3  Elvish Spirit Guide
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Pearl

2  Ethersworn Canonist
2  Kataki, War's Wage
4  Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4  Aven Mindcensor
2  Glowrider
4  Tarmogoyf
2  Gaddock Teeg
4  Qasali Pridemage

4  Swords to Plowshares
4  Stony Silence
4  Mental Misstep

The plan is to simply disrupt the opponent long enough to beat their face in with Goofy and our other bears.  We have the full suite of Rod/Waste/Strip plus 6 sphere effects for general mana denial, and we also have overlapping disruption to deal with all the major archetypes except Dredge.  Against control, we have Mindcensor, Teeg, and Misstep (and Rod/Pridemages/StP stuffs most of their win conditions).  Against Shops, we have Kataki, Pridemage, and StP.  Against combo, we have Canonist, Mindcensor, and Misstep.  As for Dredge, we have some chance at game 1 by virtue of Waste/Strip on their Bazaar, but we'll probably need to dedicate sb slots to win this matchup consistently.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I see no reason to run 4 rod over 4 stony silence.  It is infinitely harder to remove and your kataki doesn't kill it.  Yes, it costs 1W vs 2, but that shouldn't be much of a problem.

[credmond]

I see no reason to run 4 rod over 4 stony silence.  It is infinitely harder to remove and your kataki doesn't kill it.  Yes, it costs 1W vs 2, but that shouldn't be much of a problem.

Null rod is MUCH easier to land against MUD and it taps to Tangle Wire and can be cast off ESG plus anything else. Even so, I tend to prefer stony silence since a lot of decks have zero ways of removing it pre-board and often still struggle to deal with it post-board.

[bluemage55]

I see no reason to run 4 rod over 4 stony silence.  It is infinitely harder to remove and your kataki doesn't kill it.  Yes, it costs 1W vs 2, but that shouldn't be much of a problem.

Null rod is MUCH easier to land against MUD and it taps to Tangle Wire and can be cast off ESG plus anything else. Even so, I tend to prefer stony silence since a lot of decks have zero ways of removing it pre-board and often still struggle to deal with it post-board.

Yeah, I was mostly running it because it was easier to cast, but you both have good points.  I've edited the list.

[Kymagicplayer]

Do any of you have actual tournament play with this? Outside of cocaktrice and mws?

[StanleyAugust]

I don't really like Ethersworn Canonist in G/W lists unless your meta is VERY Big Blue heavy.

Basically, all Ethersworn does is to make sure your opponent doesn't cast more than one spell a turn, which is what the combined power of most of our creatures do anyway. I mean between all of our mana hosers, our opponent shouldn't be able to cast two spells anyway. Also, it's very easy to play around and is horrible against MUD.

At the moment I'm testing the following build. I try a lot of different combinations of Grafdigger's Cage, Dryad Militant, Scavenging Ooze and Rest in Peace, though. Before Dryad Militant was spoiled I played 3 Grafdigger's and 2 Scavenging Ooze maindeck, but I think the combination of Dryad and Rest in Peace in sideboard might open up some space maindeck, unless your meta features a lot of Oath.

Lands: 20

4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains

Additional Mana: 8

4 ESG
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal

Creatures: 25

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Dryad Militant
2 Phyrexian Revoker

Other: 7

4 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence

Sideboard is quite a mess because I'm still trying out different constelations maindeck. However, 2 Ghost Quarter is always in my SB.

[psyburat]

Sideboard is quite a mess because I'm still trying out different constelations maindeck. However, 2 Ghost Quarter is always in my SB.

If I had to suggest:

4 Rest in Peace
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ghost Quarter

[StanleyAugust]

You know, a good way to figure out what the optimal deck for a certain meta is, is to come up with decklists for all the various matchups. I know Menendian does this as well, and I especially think it's a good idea to do so for a deck like GW. That way you can build a composite decklist for any meta. So why not try it here? It might be interesting as we will probably have different ideas of which cards are the best against a certain build.

I'll start out with decklists against Mud. I should note now that it's only maindeckable cards I've included. This means no Serenity for instance.

I have build an anti-Forgemaster Mud deck and a anti-"not Forgemaster" Mud deck. There aren't that big differences between them, the main one being that Stony Silence is included in the anti-Forgemaster deck while not in the other one, as I think there are better options than Stony if the Mud pilot isn't packing Forgemaster og Metalworker. Here we go - I hope to get some discussion going, and hope even more that some of you will come up with decklists against for instance Oath, RUG Delver, Grixis Control, Dredge etc.

The "anti-Forgemaster Mud deck":

Lands: 22

4 Wasteland
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Plains

Additional mana: 8

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal

Creatures: 17

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Kataki, War's Wage

Other: 13

4 Path to Exile
3 Stony Silence
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Nature's Claim
2 Crucible of Worlds

The "anti-Not Forgemaster Mud deck":

Lands: 23

4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Plains

Additional mana: 8

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal

Creatures: 17

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Kataki, War's Wage

Other: 12

4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Nature's Claim
3 Crucible of Worlds

Some explanations:

- A lot, and I mean a lot, of mana feels necessary. Between lands, Artifact mana, ESG and Noble Hierarch we have got respectively 30 and 31 mana producers in the builds. However, of course ESG could be played as a vanilla creature, Noble pumps/attacks, Canopys can be cycled and the 9 Strip effects acts as offensive weapons as well. It's worth noticing, that often you will try to lock your opponent out of mana exactly like he tries to lock you out of mana.
I cut one Ghost Quarter in the Anti-Forgemaster build because it seems less important here, especially with Stony as mana hoser as well.
- Crucible is very important here, I feel. It prevents you from getting Strip-locked, it is the nuts against Smokestack and once again it helps you lock your opponent out - it is also a draw engine with Canopy.
- Goyf. Well, I really like Goyf in the Mud matchup but it's definitely worth considering cutting him, especially in the Anti-Forgemaster Build. Actually, the more I think of it, I think it perhaps should be cut, but I like having a clock and something to trade with Lodestone if necessary.
- Between Qasali, Relic-Warder, Nature's Claim, Swords and Path, I think I have enough different answers facing Chalice @ 1 og 2 although one extra Nature's Claim definitely could be considered.

[Blue Lotus]

If you aren't running cage you should be running GSZ. And elvish spirit guide I think is -EV

[bax]

@Stanley - the principle you are working with is correct (tailor your list to a certain meta).
Nevertheless, you seem to be pushing this concept a bit too far in your decklist. Let me go into the details:

1. the manabase you are proposing is over the top. 31 mana sources + 4 hierarch gets you flooded on all match. It is simply too much.
2. Try to not come up with decklist that *only* work in a certain match up. Kataki, quasali relic warder and Stony silence all in the same main deck wiht Nature's claim expose you considerably to aggro deck such as BANT. You would probably win all MUD matchup but lose to Fish UGR, Goblin and Bant.
3. The key word here is balancing meta expectations to flexibility. Both decklist do not have threat density enough to have a fair matchup with the totality of the field and without a draw engine getting paired with the wrong archetype means a sure loss.
4. 4x ESG + Lotus petal = tons of dead draws if not in hand in turn 1.
5. both stony + kataki in a deck with moxes are anti-synergic
6. Arbiter is inferior to Aven if you are playing fetchlands. No Aven means no evasive creature = no way of stopping that trygon pestering you or that flipped delver pounding on your life totals. Means no way of removing that Jace that bounces your little guys (much easier to do Aven in EOT then play an hierarch and seal his fate)
7. Ghost quarters make your manabase even more shaky, how many time will you open hands with 3 colorles producing lands ? How many mulligan is this choiche going to cost you?
8. No Cavern of souls means death to CotV@1 + CotV@2 - which can be casted on T1 by MUD even in turn 1.

Think about something more versatile, then look at meta and change that 4/5 slot tops if you want to have a tournament winning decklist.