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vaughnbros
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« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2012, 08:05:28 am » |
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I feel like a deck with this many legends could possibly use Survival of the Fittest. Just a thought. You don't have to wait a turn to use it like Fauna Shaman. It works better with Teeg than GSZ does. Gets you whatever you need instead of sitting on that 2nd legend copy. I also feel like 4 Thrun is too many in this list.
It is 4 post board versus Land still. It just wrecks them so hard with Stable Stag. At that moment you hardly care of you have a dead card in hand. Just make sure they don't get an active crucible, and that is why Ooze,Pridemage and Claim are around. Click link in my profile information for most up to date version. I definitely don't see stable stag in your list. Also i dont think stag is very good against landstill it dies to explosives, bolt, and a factory pumping itself. I think a great option on the anti landstill front would be Isao, Enlightened Bushi. He has all the benefits that thrun has of being uncounterable and unkillable by anything in landstill, however he has a different name which is huge in my opinion, and does come down a turn sooner which can be essential to hitting the table before a standstill does. He also doubles as being very powerful in mirrors since he outright beats all bears.
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Guli
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« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2012, 08:56:25 am » |
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@Vaughbros Pro blue is key when facing a Jace. Isao, Enlightened Bushi also dies to everything if you don't have 2 mana and can be bounced. Bolt can be countered back with Missteps. Fire/Ice can't. Also don't forget massacre and pyroclasm. I would be happy if they had to use EE on Stable. And stony silence is around don't forget. Also Stable is better against those Bob, Snap, Jace versions who run Dismember as removal. Still, I do like the card  re Survival: There is something to say for the Sryb Ranger and Fauna Shaman interaction as well. Plus Thalia of course, it does make it hard to get Survival going.
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« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 09:34:01 am by Guli »
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serracollector
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« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2012, 04:35:58 pm » |
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I know this might sound legacyish, but would adding 1 loyal retainer, and maybe even a fat legend like iona, be really good with not only all your legends, but as a uber lock with fauna shaman and rangers?
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Guli
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« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2012, 06:29:11 am » |
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It is still GW beats but I figured I add a sapphire for a tiny little splash of blue. Noble also provides blue and say a singleton Tropical with 5-6 fetches.
I figured, instead of trying fancy stuff why not just try out Ancestral Recall and Time Walk. It should not be that hard to play these within an already solid shell and mana base.
GWu Beats (this is hardly Bant, cause in Bant I run Trygon, Edric, Meddling Mage and so on) looks tasty and there is always the possibility to add a couple more blue cards.
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bax
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« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2012, 06:38:48 am » |
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It is still GW beats but I figured I add a sapphire for a tiny little splash of blue. Noble also provides blue and say a singleton Tropical with 5-6 fetches.
I figured, instead of trying fancy stuff why not just try out Ancestral Recall and Time Walk. It should not be that hard to play these within an already solid shell and mana base.
GWu Beats (this is hardly Bant, cause in Bant I run Trygon, Edric, Meddling Mage and so on) looks tasty and there is always the possibility to add a couple more blue cards.
I have been thinking this for a while, not that GW can also be played without Leonin Arbiter, it becomes very reasonable and much explosive than 2x Orhan Viper. Supports as well 3/4x misstep maindeck and 2x Flusterstorm in side. I would say this modification settle the deal for the control matchup. It reamins to be seen if those modification don't weaken the deck too much vs Artifact.
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Guli
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« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2012, 07:23:48 am » |
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I also tuned a bit more and added Knight of Reliquary.
The mana base: 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland 4 Windswept Heath 1 Wooded Foothills 2 Savannah 1 Tropical Island 2 Forest 1 Plains 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Black Lotus 2 Elvish Spirit Guide
Ranger's team: 4 Scryb Ranger 3 Mikaeus, the Lunarch 3 Noble Hierarch 1 Knight of the Reliquary 1 Maze of Ith 1 Karakas
Muscle power and anti control: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll 1 Scavenging Ooze
The hate squad versus broken: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 3 Gaddock Teeg 4 Mental Misstep 3 Stony Silence 3 Qasali Pridemage
Good cheap spells: 4 Swords to Plowshares 1 Time Walk 1 Ancestral Recall
The Sideboard: SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage SB: 4 Nature's Claim SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll SB: 3 Porcelain Legionnaire SB: 3 Scavenging Ooze
I am not sure though if the blue is worth it. It will disrupt the mana base and might interfere with the game flow when you get that tropical just to cast a recall. But yea, it is a possibility.
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« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 12:45:40 pm by Guli »
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credmond
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« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2012, 03:16:34 pm » |
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I would swap 2 Thrun and 1 Ooze maindeck for the 3 Cages sideboard so you maindeck 3 Cages.
As it is, the deck seems meta'd to fight Aggro, MUD, and Landstill off the bat. This may be correct for a particular meta and it may be correct for your meta. But in a high-powered meta, I think you stand to benefit more from 3 Cages in the main deck. Cages hit Dredge, Oath, Tinker, Will, and Snapcasters, all of which are problems for GW beats.
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Guli
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« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2012, 09:57:40 am » |
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I would swap 2 Thrun and 1 Ooze maindeck for the 3 Cages sideboard so you maindeck 3 Cages.
As it is, the deck seems meta'd to fight Aggro, MUD, and Landstill off the bat. This may be correct for a particular meta and it may be correct for your meta. But in a high-powered meta, I think you stand to benefit more from 3 Cages in the main deck. Cages hit Dredge, Oath, Tinker, Will, and Snapcasters, all of which are problems for GW beats.
You will lose more games in the aggro match up this way. Stony/Thrun or big body counters Batterskull/germ for example. I think the blue is a mistake. It was shown in initial testings that the mana base can't carry the tropical. So they are out, not suited for this kind of tight list. Also, I am testing something new (which I will not reveal yet) to solve the Legendary/'dead cards' problem. I have to report here though, that it has hardly been a problem because things die and get countered
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« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 10:03:28 am by Guli »
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Guli
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« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2012, 07:51:35 pm » |
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Pffff, lots of testing, lots of unclear observations. And lots of options...
I think I will close the GW chapter with a final list:
1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Emerald 4 Windswept Heath 3 Forest 1 Plains 3 Savannah 2 Wooded Foothills 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 4 Qasali Pridemage 3 Gaddock Teeg 4 Scryb Ranger 4 Noble Hierarch 3 Mikaeus, the Lunarch 2 Devout Witness 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Swords to Plowshares 4 Mental Misstep 4 Stony Silence
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage SB: 1 Devout Witness SB: 3 Nature's Claim SB: 2 Kataki, War's Wage SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll
I added another land to be on the safe side and because Devout could just cycle out anything you don't need to snipe annoying permanents. Works nicely with Ranger, because it gives her a card and untaps her. The idea is to have a 3 drop that can permanently deal with Workshop threats and Oath. Qasali Pridemage is a one shot weapon while Devout could work out like a Trygon and doesn't need to connect.
Ok that is it, enough of the GW beats for me.
I will be working on something different.
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Disburden
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Posts: 602
Blue Blue, Drain you.
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« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2012, 10:15:38 pm » |
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I am wondering why there isnt any grafdiggers cage in the past few lists maindeck? That card does so much vs most of the field..wouldn't it just be better in the main?
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Unrestrict: Library of Alexandria and Burning Wish.
Location: Carmel, NY (Putnam County)
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bax
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« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2012, 06:13:06 am » |
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I am wondering why there isn't any grafdiggers cage in the past few lists maindeck? That card does so much vs most of the field..wouldn't it just be better in the main?
In fact you are spot on right. Grafidigger's Cage belongs to the main deck. I feel that the last list published by Guli above is derailing a little bit from the original strategy of the deck and i do not believe it would be very effective when played against tier 1 deck piloted by good players. Last sunday i won a 33 people tournament ( http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7811&iddeck=56871) with my last evolution of this deck which includes some splash for blue in order to have access to Ancestral Recall and Time Walk in the maindeck (and a randomic Edric instead than the 3rd Tarmo). It plays 3 cages maindeck and I've preferred Aven Mindcensor over Leonin Arbiter because together with ESG they are just devastating surprise drops that seriously cripple the opponent if done at the right moment. The blue splash has brought also several other powerful weapons in the sideboard such as Trygon Predator and Meddling Mage. Both those cards have won me some game over the tournament The % numbers were just terrific as i ended the tournament with the following stats 76% won games, 7 won matches (but the final doesn't count as i won it by drop), one I.D. and one lost to an Oath deck that won 2-1 in both case with show and tell faster than i could get a meddling out. I feel like i could have played the final vs the Dredge even with little hate in my sideboard as if in Game 1 i could have pulled a cage it would be GG, same if in G2 or G3 i could pull a cage + 1 Thalia with misstep to back up my strategy ichorid doesn't have much ways of removing my hate. The list i played was the following: // Lands 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 1 Forest 1 Plains 2 Savannah 1 Tropical Island 4 Windswept Heath 1 Misty Rainforest 1 Tundra 3 Horizon Canopy // Creatures 3 Gaddock Teeg 4 Aven Mindcensor 3 Elvish Spirit Guide 3 Kataki, War's Wage 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 4 Noble Hierarch 3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage 2 Tarmogoyf 1 [CMD] Edric, Spymaster of Trest // Spells 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Black Lotus 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Time Walk 1 Sylvan Library 3 Swords to Plowshares 3 Grafdigger's Cage 3 Stony Silence // Sideboard SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares SB: 1 Tarmogoyf SB: 3 Mental Misstep SB: 3 Nature's Claim SB: 2 Trygon Predator SB: 2 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze I must say i love this deck - I am playing since last July and this year i picked it as my preferred deck for the whole Italian North Vintage League season and so far in 8 tournaments got me to the top8 four times with one win and one final. Is getting more powerful every month and Thalia is simply a devastating bomb in this deck which makes me not regret that i have removed 3 ghost quarters - it does the same job and better. The downside is that is not anymore a budget deck (which was good to go for the budget prize as well as the main prize). In the local meta the GW hate deck have considerably increased and caused a big decline of the MUD and Turbotezz deck that were just everywhere last year. Soon it is going to be time to tune the side for the mirror match
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Guli
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« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2012, 06:43:06 pm » |
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I am wondering why there isnt any grafdiggers cage in the past few lists maindeck? That card does so much vs most of the field..wouldn't it just be better in the main?
Because it is a SB card to combat Bazaar based decks and Oath.
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Disburden
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Blue Blue, Drain you.
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« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2012, 09:06:11 pm » |
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It shuts down all major strategies in vintage..from tinker, to yawmoths will, oath, etc. Thats why i thought it would be better as a maindeck card that locks the game down, much like null rod or chalice for example.
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Unrestrict: Library of Alexandria and Burning Wish.
Location: Carmel, NY (Putnam County)
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ModflyDesign
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« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2012, 09:18:31 pm » |
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you are correct... it IS better main decked.
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Co-Owner at The Players Guild Professional Alterer Modflyalters.blogspot.com for alters gallery
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Guli
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« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2012, 09:22:19 pm » |
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It shuts down all major strategies in vintage..from tinker, to yawmoths will, oath, etc. Thats why i thought it would be better as a maindeck card that locks the game down, much like null rod or chalice for example.
The biggest weakness of Cage is that people will think it will actually stop all it should suppose to stop. The reality will be that it will get bounced and destroyed more often than you think and GW beats is not really equipped to protect the cage against big blue. It is acceptable to run it as a versatile SB card hitting more than 1 archetype. This allows you to bring in more cards from the SB in various match ups. I think Cage could be better in a deck that uses Meddling Mage and some counters. You don't always get to the point of having multiple threats as GW. On paper it sounds nice, you sneak that cage in between of all the usual hate and this really cuts them off. These games do happen, but a lot of times you also get in a position were you have stony and cage and no beaters. While they are theoretically shut off from all win routes, they are not denied access to tutoring, drawing and finding answers. I believe running Choke would be a bomb too, and it actually hits them harder than Cage in my opinion, because it supports your denial strategy. Sometimes I do bring in a couple of cages from the SB when I see tinker, snaps, y will and such. But never 4 versus non bazaar or non oath.
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credmond
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« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2012, 11:05:15 pm » |
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Whether or not you run cage main deck is strictly a meta game call. If the top players and your toughest matches are running MUD and Landstill and Gro then running cage maindeck will put you behind in the matches that matter to you the most.
Its a decent main deck inclusion if your meta is unknown or wide open since it hits a lot of strategies, but once you have some foreknowledge of the meta you are walking into then you should know whether to throw cage in the main deck or not. If its a Dredge heavy and Shop light meta then going all 4 cages rather than just 3 in the main deck is the right call.
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bax
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« Reply #76 on: March 07, 2012, 09:51:14 am » |
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Whether or not you run cage main deck is strictly a meta game call. If the top players and your toughest matches are running MUD and Landstill and Gro then running cage maindeck will put you behind in the matches that matter to you the most. Kuldotha MUD, especially the version with Lightning greaves, is considerably slowed down by Cage in play. Kuldotha goes from being a one turn killing machine into a simple 3/5 beater. Ok Stony silence has the same effect, but i do not mind having some extra protection. I agree vs. Landstil the cage is useless. vs. SnapControl, Storm going via Yawgmoth in general, Tinker in general & Oath the cage is useful. Vs Ichorid might be the difference betgween winning the first game and consequently the match and losing it. Vs. Blue in general, pre-side, while it is true that the cage could be easily bounced, it is also true that if they bounce cage they do not bounce something else. If you are "on the play" and have cage you know they are not going to do have a tinker in their turn 1. So basically cage is weak only vs Landstil and aggro deck and some % of the MUD match-up . Dredge heavy and Shop light meta then going all 4 cages rather than just 3 in the main deck is the right call.
The only case when i want 4 cages in the deck is vs dredge because i have to see one in turn 1....
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ELD
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Eric Dupuis
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« Reply #77 on: March 07, 2012, 11:04:39 am » |
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This thread is soooooo last year 
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boggyb
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« Reply #78 on: March 07, 2012, 11:25:09 am » |
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Yeah but it's also just a reactive kind of card in a proactive kind of deck. If it had legs it'd be a different story, but most of the time versus most blue decks you would prefer to play a hatebear early on rather than a cage. Even Stony Silence isn't optimal until like turn 3, unless you have a hand heavy on mana disruption or their deck is particularly weak to it. It hoses some archetypes, though, so if your meta is stuffed with those then play it maindeck, but default option should be to sideboard it.
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #79 on: March 24, 2012, 08:15:48 pm » |
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Here is what I have been running recently:
3 Nature's Claim 4 Qasali Pridemage 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 3 Kataki, War's Wage 4 Noble Hierarch 4 Knight of the Reliquary 4 Swords to Plowshares 4 Green Sun's Zenith 1 Thornscape Apprentice 1 Scavenging Ooze 1 Gaddock Teeg 3 Wasteland 4 Stony Silence 1 Dryad Arbor 1 Strip Mine 3 Horizon Canopy 4 Windswept Heath 3 Savannah 2 Plains 2 Forest 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl 1 Petrified Field
I like GSZ. A lot. Plays around chalice very well, 1 mana rampant growth and allows you get get utility creatures in teeg, ooze, and apprentice.
This deck's goal is to get a knight out on turn two. Then you get strip mine, then petrified field -> replay strip mine, then waste away the remaining lands. This way, you are nuking lands and building a huge threat. Also, this gives a near-hard lock with kataki or stony or thalia.
I might cut a claim to go up to 4 kataki, not sure yet. I enjoy having some cheap instants in my heavy creature deck.
GSZ means you can't maindeck cage but I think you are good enough against oath, and you have utility guys you can get if they tinker (apprentice) or their graveyard is looking lethal (ooze).
Let me know what you think!
Edit - made some changes to the mana:
-1 petrified filed -1 horizon canopy
+1 savannah +1 wasteland
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« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 01:52:02 pm by Blue Lotus »
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credmond
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« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2012, 05:49:36 pm » |
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Blue lotus,
with 4 x knight in your list, you should be running a maze of ith in there.
Here is the list I have been running . . .
GW Bazaar Beats
1 Mox Emerald 1 Black Lotus 2 Forest 1 Strip Mine 2 Wasteland 3 Squee, Goblin Nabob 4 Bazaar of Baghdad 2 Riftstone Portal 4 Savannah 2 Plains 4 Windswept Heath 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 2 Gaddock Teeg 1 Mox Pearl 2 Knight of the Reliquary 2 Grafdigger's Cage 3 Mental Misstep 2 Life from the Loam 1 Mox Ruby 4 Swords to Plowshares 3 Qasali Pridemage 2 Stony Silence 2 Kataki, War's Wage 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Maze of Ith 1 Crop Rotation 1 Devout Witness 2 Noble Hierarch 1 Scavenging Ooze SB: 3 Nature's Claim SB: 2 Wasteland SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage SB: 3 Porcelain Legionnaire SB: 1 Mental Misstep SB: 3 Ravenous Trap SB: 1 Devout Witness
The deck is very synergistic and is very fun to play when you leverage all the synergy. Bazaar is a challenging card to play but proves very powerful when you learn its secret strengths and avoid the pitfalls. I've been playing bazaar type decks for a while and you have to test a lot to develop a strong sense of when to tap it and when not too, since tapping it at the wrong time can bury you into a hole.
Bazaar means that the two knights and the ooze can get insanely huge over the course of a single turn. Knight can also tutor bazaar if you need it. Witness + squee is also silly good.
Obviously its great to get Squee(s) + Bazaar going (or the slower Life from the Loam + bazaar going) since that can be an uncounterable draw each turn. But even just Bazaar can be good to use to discard extra land or useless artifact mana or extraneous legends or useless cards (like mental mistep or cage game 1 in certain matchups) for useable cards. Bazaar is also excellent tech against opponent chalices. It also enables the deck to change roles very quickly or dig for "I need it now" answers like swords when you need them.
One pitfall of the deck is to realize that running the bazaar engine can be a loss of tempo since you sacrifice early presence for midrange and long term strength. This is significant in the blitzing MUD aggro matchup and I will often side out almost all of the bazaar squee package so as to juicen up my draws with stuff that I need to have in hand to establish super quick aggro board presence and the sideboard supports doing just that. However, bazaar + squee does really well against the less tempo oriented MUD matchups where you want to have a good midrange plan and is golden against decks that try to prolong the game, like Landstill or blue control decks. Life from the loam is especially brutal against Landstill.
One nice thing is that the deck doesn't just roll over and die to anti graveyard tech since the deck does not require an active bazaar to win. Beats can just beat. Also, your deck comes with built-in answers like Qasali to annoyances like Leyline of the Void. Oftentimes you will get the sense that an opponent has over-sideboarded against you as you ignore their anti squee stuff and just pound the red zone. Also, keep in mind that you can strip all the bazaar squee stuff out if you think the opponent is planning on going heavy graveyard hate. You don't need the engine to win and blanking all their graveyard hate makes for brutal matches in your favor.
The deck can have problems with blue decks that are not greedy at all with their mana and have a deep anti-aggro plan, which is to be expected.
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« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 06:32:30 pm by credmond »
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Guli
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« Reply #81 on: March 30, 2012, 06:21:54 am » |
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I have been obsing a lot games and that GW Bazaar Beats works nicely. I did find it slow in some games. But it can also simply power out turn 1 threats followed by other threats. The good part of this is that the threats in the deck are the best of the best. You will see Gaddock, Thalia, Stony, Cage, Kataki and so on hating them out while he also gets strip effects with knights, loams etc... So you can't just wait around against this deck. Still, I find it slowish overall. On paper, and in practice, Riftstone solves this problem of tempo loss. But this does not happen ALL the time. It is up to credmond to tell us his objective observations on this matter.
My GW list has had some updates as well;
4 Noble Hierarch 3 Scryb Ranger 3 Stony Silence 4 Qasali Pridemage 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl 3 Savannah 1 Plains 2 Forest 1 Scavenging Ooze 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 4 Windswept Heath 4 Aven Mindcensor 3 Swords to Plowshares 1 Mox Sapphire 2 Misty Rainforest 1 Cold-Eyed Selkie 4 Green Sun's Zenith 1 Dryad Arbor 1 Thornscape Apprentice 1 Gaddock Teeg 4 Mental Misstep 2 Kataki, War's Wage SB: 4 Nature's Claim SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage SB: 4 Ravenous Trap SB: 1 Kataki, War's Wage SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
-1 Ranger -1 Thalia +2 Kataki SB: -2 Kataki +2 Canonist
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« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 08:25:17 am by Guli »
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bax
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« Reply #82 on: March 30, 2012, 08:00:24 am » |
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This version is the one i like most amongst the last few you have posted. The only modification i would make is go down to two rangers (anyway with GSZ you can get them in play whenever you need them)
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Guli
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« Reply #83 on: March 30, 2012, 08:09:18 am » |
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This version is the one i like most amongst the last few you have posted. The only modification i would make is go down to two rangers (anyway with GSZ you can get them in play whenever you need them)
It is an evolving piece of work. I started from a fresh idea 2 months ago. It is natural that there is improvement and change. And I was also thinking to cut to 3 Ranger actually. Ranger is a good control card versus Fish and Workshop. But not so great versus Oath and Combo. It is OK against snapcontrol, jaces, trygon blue control. It might be possible to play 2x Canonist and go back to 3x Thalia. The problem might be the Workshop match up in this case. So those 2 slots could be Kataki as well... And move Canonist to SB. Important is that a fast chalice at 1 or 2 can be answered by mana, acceleration and GSZ.
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« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 09:54:00 am by Guli »
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msg67183
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« Reply #84 on: March 30, 2012, 10:09:18 am » |
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Play vexing shusher if u need something for chalice. Its a great card for chalice as well as control matchups.
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Bloomsburg Tournaments: 1 Win 3 Finals 2 Top 4 2 Top 8 Outside Bloomsburg: Winter Grudge Match lV Top 4 Creator of The Mana Drain Vintage League. Website for The League: http://tmdvl.github.ioZombies ate your brains!
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Guli
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« Reply #85 on: March 31, 2012, 09:54:56 am » |
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Play vexing shusher if u need something for chalice. Its a great card for chalice as well as control matchups.
I find Shusher not to be that great against shop and control. It hits those cards that will NOT kill you. Counters are better met by luring them out, casting more threats than they can handle. Chalice is met by running both 1cc and 2cc threats and bypassing it with Zenith WHILE you get an actual threat. Agreed, Shusher and mana really enables a comfortable game, but I don't think you will consistently get the time and resources to get the desired lines of play with Shusher over the long run. Don't base your arguments on a couple of games were Shusher utterly shined and destroyed them. That happens on occasion but too many times it just doesn't.
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Kymagicplayer
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« Reply #86 on: April 03, 2012, 11:40:46 am » |
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So is this thread supposed to be focused on the GW builds or is it GWx where we are trying to decide which is best out of the possibilities? I LOVE the blue in this deck, and have questions based on the gwu builds...but dont know if this is the thread or not for those questions and discussions?
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #87 on: April 10, 2012, 05:52:56 pm » |
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I have been obsing a lot games and that GW Bazaar Beats works nicely. I did find it slow in some games. But it can also simply power out turn 1 threats followed by other threats. The good part of this is that the threats in the deck are the best of the best. You will see Gaddock, Thalia, Stony, Cage, Kataki and so on hating them out while he also gets strip effects with knights, loams etc... So you can't just wait around against this deck. Still, I find it slowish overall. On paper, and in practice, Riftstone solves this problem of tempo loss. But this does not happen ALL the time. It is up to credmond to tell us his objective observations on this matter.
My GW list has had some updates as well;
4 Noble Hierarch 3 Scryb Ranger 3 Stony Silence 4 Qasali Pridemage 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl 3 Savannah 1 Plains 2 Forest 1 Scavenging Ooze 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 4 Windswept Heath 4 Aven Mindcensor 3 Swords to Plowshares 1 Mox Sapphire 2 Misty Rainforest 1 Cold-Eyed Selkie 4 Green Sun's Zenith 1 Dryad Arbor 1 Thornscape Apprentice 1 Gaddock Teeg 4 Mental Misstep 2 Kataki, War's Wage SB: 4 Nature's Claim SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage SB: 4 Ravenous Trap SB: 1 Kataki, War's Wage SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
-1 Ranger -1 Thalia +2 Kataki SB: -2 Kataki +2 Canonist
Interesting take. Looks like you dropped all the tap to activate guys. Thoughts on a singleton KOTR to use with ranger? Also, I would add 1-2 horizon canopy. They're nice to have so you don't get flooded out, with or without knight. I think 3 thalia is the perfect number. I also really like 3 kataki. Added mana denial and just gangbusters against shop. Now that null rod is an enchant, I think GW should be maindecking 3 kataki.
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Guli
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« Reply #88 on: April 10, 2012, 06:26:08 pm » |
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I have been obsing a lot games and that GW Bazaar Beats works nicely. I did find it slow in some games. But it can also simply power out turn 1 threats followed by other threats. The good part of this is that the threats in the deck are the best of the best. You will see Gaddock, Thalia, Stony, Cage, Kataki and so on hating them out while he also gets strip effects with knights, loams etc... So you can't just wait around against this deck. Still, I find it slowish overall. On paper, and in practice, Riftstone solves this problem of tempo loss. But this does not happen ALL the time. It is up to credmond to tell us his objective observations on this matter.
My GW list has had some updates as well;
4 Noble Hierarch 3 Scryb Ranger 3 Stony Silence 4 Qasali Pridemage 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl 3 Savannah 1 Plains 2 Forest 1 Scavenging Ooze 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 4 Windswept Heath 4 Aven Mindcensor 3 Swords to Plowshares 1 Mox Sapphire 2 Misty Rainforest 1 Cold-Eyed Selkie 4 Green Sun's Zenith 1 Dryad Arbor 1 Thornscape Apprentice 1 Gaddock Teeg 4 Mental Misstep 2 Kataki, War's Wage SB: 4 Nature's Claim SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage SB: 4 Ravenous Trap SB: 1 Kataki, War's Wage SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
-1 Ranger -1 Thalia +2 Kataki SB: -2 Kataki +2 Canonist
Interesting take. Looks like you dropped all the tap to activate guys. Thoughts on a singleton KOTR to use with ranger? Also, I would add 1-2 horizon canopy. They're nice to have so you don't get flooded out, with or without knight. I think 3 thalia is the perfect number. I also really like 3 kataki. Added mana denial and just gangbusters against shop. Now that null rod is an enchant, I think GW should be maindecking 3 kataki. Tweaked a little further. I noticed I never got Selkie. Rarely.. Replaced it with Tarmogoyf Added the A.R. and went to 3 GSZ. 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Sapphire4 Windswept Heath 2 Forest 1 Plains 3 Savannah 2 Misty Rainforest 4 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 2 Kataki, War's Wage 4 Qasali Pridemage 3 Scryb Ranger 4 Noble Hierarch 4 Aven Mindcensor 1 Scavenging Ooze 1 Thornscape Apprentice 1 Gaddock Teeg 1 Dryad Arbor 3 Green Sun's Zenith 3 Swords to Plowshares 4 Mental Misstep 3 Stony Silence 1 Ancestral Recall1 Knight of the ReliquarySB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage SB: 4 Nature's Claim SB: 1 Kataki, War's Wage SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus Knight seems fine, maybe I should give it a try instead of Tarmogoyf. You don't want to mess with the manabase by adding non forest lands. I also don't want KoR to demand too much slots, it won't get them  . It is strong by getting strip/waste and then kill them by swinging for huge. Don't want more of the card, no need. Getting strip is huge enough with Thalia, Stony, Aven and Kataki around. I also changed the SB drastically, but I will not spoil it right now. First test will be in the Duck#13 Online tourney.
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« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 06:16:35 am by Guli »
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Kymagicplayer
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« Reply #89 on: April 10, 2012, 08:20:33 pm » |
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With you running aven mindsensor, why not use path to exile over swords to plowshares?
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