[Community Article] To My Someday Daughter by Geordie Tait

[Meddling Mike]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22786_To_My_Someday_Daughter.html

Fair warning before you get started, this thing is a long read. Even longer if you are not familiar with the initial Gizmodo article that prompted this article.

I debated about whether or not to start this discussion. At this time there's not a single post on these boards about Alyssa Bereznak and maybe we're better off that way. But whether I agree with the author of this article or not, I thought that it was thought provoking and made me think a lot about how Magic affects my personal life and the negative connotations people still hold about our hobby. Because of that I've decided to open up a thread discussing it here, please don't make me regret it by turning this into a thread full of flames and rants.

I made a comment on the article itself that generated some discussion:

I didn't like the way that this article presented things. I think what the author is saying is that Magic players are so obsessed with Magic that they are less capable of properly maintaining a relationship and because of that there is adequate reason to avoid them as partners. There are thousands of very successful people whose success requires ample amounts of time beyond the average 9-5, as a result their personal lives can suffer, but they don't receive this kind of treatment. I haven't heard many women say "I wouldn't want to date Tom Brady, I would always be second fiddle to football." If the argument is that the gaming world and those that inhabit it are too weird to date by default I also don't think that holds up to scrutiny as Jon clearly didn't fit this negative stereotype and did not make any references into dragging her into the gaming world. We don't like being stereotyped wholesale as social retards simply because of our hobby and I don't think that's an unreasonable position to take.

[Norm4eva]

Man, I really wish I had exactly one opinion on this article.

For starters it both made me LOL and gave me pause, hopefully in the right order and in the anticipated places.

I have a daughter, she's ten.  Entering 5th grade.  I only see her on weekends, and only then if I'm not working.  Both of her homes have gamer parents; really, all four of us have varying levels of nerdery in our blood.  Ever since my daughter was just a bean sprout I've tried my damnedest to be a man in her life who reminds her to not compare her body or mind to anyone else's.  I'm sure that's practically a biological impossibility, for most humans let alone young females.  So in this way did I totally get behind a lot of the article.

And maybe it's because the reply is very self-aware, a reply that is happening more-or-less "around the corner" from the Alyssa Bereznak flame frenzy, and it's trying very consciously to act as a counterbalance to the more unintelligent barrage of Fuck You she's probably entertaining right now.  Still I can't help but feel a certain way by the time I reach the end of the article; it's gone a long way to describe an understanding of the female condition, yet the article manages to let the male's point of view be summarily wrapped up in the vitriol you're trying to disarm.  We can go down the "men are afraid of having their dicks laughed at, while women are afraid of being fucking murdered" path, but comparison of suffering has never really sat well with me as a means of generalizing what it ultimately a *highly* individualized experience.  Just as most women have never been 4'10" double-D sci-fi sluts with the temperament of 12 year olds, I've never been an oppressive judgmental male who lets stereotypical male needs like "pride and competition" determine his path through life.  And I certainly don't represent any of the skill or body type of any of the He-Men or Gandalfs they decide to throw onto the face of a Magic card - there isn't a homunculus printed yet that can fully capture my stunning 5'7", 200 lbs frame.  I'm no Gluttonous Zombie but I'm not exactly Iwamori of the Open Fist. (I'd settle for being 'the guy from Donate' but we can't all be as cool as T00L.)

I mean I really see what you did there, I do, and it's important for dialogue to exist on these terms.  But as you were apt to point out, part of the discussion is being played out in one corner of the Internets, and one part of it is playing out over here.  It's my simple opinion that an issue of this magnitude isn't going to begin to resolve until someone can actually stand in the middle and speak on both points without sounding like an apologist.

[bluemage55]

The article is just White Knighting at its finest.  People get disproportionately flamed for relatively minor transgressions all the time.  But when it's a woman, then all of the sudden people feel the need to to defend her from criticism, give her the benefit of the doubt as to her motivations, etc.

If a man were to write an article dismissing a date because she was a nerd, do you think anyone would care if he got flamed?

It's also worth mentioning that feminists are going out of their way to defend AB's right to "having a preference", but these are also the same people who flip out when men judge women for being ugly or overweight.  Double standard much?

[CorwinB]

Having two actual daughters (and zero imaginary ones) which I try to raise in respect of their fellow human beings, no matter what their race/religion/sex/orientation/gaming hobbies are, I felt absolutely unmoved by the article as a whole. It felt pretentious and full of the sweeping generalities the author pretends to abbhor.

I'm in the exact opposite situation of the one he tries to pigeonhole MtG players into : my family comes first and foremost for me, and the planning of gaming sessions (with friends at home or outside, tournaments...) is discussed and organized calmly and openly with my wife, just as her own hobbies (shopping sessions, TV evenings...) are. My wife is far from a nerdy type, but our mutual respect makes it possible for us to have a loving relationship in spite of me playing MtG, reading Sci-Fi books, or playing video games. The author's implication that gamers only look for women as walking vagina is misguided and insulting, both for gamers and women.

It doesn't help that I don't feel much sympathy for Alyssa Bereznak who had her obvious click-fishing bait succeed beyond her wildest expectations. Her article, like many on the so-called "news" sites like Gizmondo, IGN... was simple troll-bait designed not to express a viewpoint, but to attract attention (and hence clicks and avertising revenues). That's a behavior I dislike from anyone, no matter their sex.

[Nefarias]

Haven't gotten a chance to read the linked article yet, but just so you're aware there was a thread on this boards regarding this situation already, and it remained civil enough:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=42828.0

[Klep]

If Geordie wants to write an article about how nerds and gamers can really be incredibly, maliciously sexist than he has my support, but he shouldn't do so by defending someone who so obviously doesn't deserve it.  It undermines his point.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

One of my friends pointed out that Star City essentially did the same thing that Gizmodo did.

[Delha]

If Geordie wants to write an article about how nerds and gamers can really be incredibly, maliciously sexist than he has my support, but he shouldn't do so by defending someone who so obviously doesn't deserve it.  It undermines his point.

This was pretty much my thought exactly. I agree that gamer guys are very very often scum. The doesn't change the fact that one person treated another with cruelty and deserved every bit of flaming backlash that came of it.

It also didn't help that I've seen the Day[9] clip he quoted, and the line is taken completely out of context. He was referring to an ex who regularly used "G.G." as a quip to kick him while he was down. I'd think that warrants a bit of vitriol, and isn't indicative of personality as a whole. Geodie presumably saw the whole video and knew this, but sliced the quote to suit his needs, which really doesn't help his credibility in my eyes.

[Meddling Mike]

From the SCG boards, it's a response to some of the discussion there, I think it makes some points that were missed in my initial post.

I think Geordie hints heavily to Alyssa having more logical reasons for her rejection. He makes the argument that under her three strikes were some great reasons not to get involved with a Magic player. I'm not saying that those reasons don't exist, I'm saying they have NOTHING to do with what went on here.

In the process the author makes some broad generalities about Magic players that are also unfair. "A gamer might promise to treat his partner better than “some alpha male,” but what he really wants is a partner who will pop out of a Pokéball when A WILD LONELINESS APPEARS, use the FORNICATION ability, and then retreat mutely back into his collection, dormant until needed again." Wow, I really appreciate being lumped into that unfair stereotype.

What basis does Alyssa have to believe she would always be playing second fiddle to Jon's obsession? Was he canceling dates to go play magic? I think he's making a big logical leap here. There's no mention of this in the article and no evidence to support his position on this other than what he's reading into what is meant by her comments. I also don't buy the explanation that because they have different interests their relationship is doomed to fail. Couples can't have seperate interests now? No magic player has ever successfully courted a non-magic player and made it work before? It's pretty clear that Jon is incapable of having a conversation that doesn't revolve around his obsession. "We started talking about normal stuff—family, work, college."....oh...nevermind. Surely, later on he inundated her with tons of Magic talk she didn't want to hear right? "At dinner I got straight down to it. Did he still play?" Oh...guess that's not what happened either.

The author is making excuses for her based on speculation about what he thinks she meant and making generalities about people that play Magic to support his position and I don't care for it. So, as far as I'm concerned she rejected him strictly on the basis of the stereotypes she holds about gamers. In my book that makes somebody shallow. Do people make shallow judgments while choosing partners? Absolutely, myself included. Is it ok to write an article chastising the other person for my shallow judgments? Absolutely not. Let's put the shoe on the other foot here for a second. If I go out on a date with a fat girl, determine subjectively that that is a turn off and never see her again, what does that make me? Shallow. Next I write an article on a Weight Watchers website chastising the fat girl for not listing her weight prominently in her profile, what sort of response should I expect to receive? I feel like part of the argument that this article is making is the equivalent of "I see the truth of his words, there are lots of good reasons not to date a fat girl, he was probably worried there would be no food left for him after she ate. He was also probably concerned about her getting diabetes and hypertension later in life."

[JACO]

I yawned.

[Eastman]

I yawned.

+1

[arctic79]

I understand what the writer was trying to convey, but the article meandered a fair bit here and there and everywhere and I think IMO that he missed making an actual clear point to his future daughter.  I would have been impressed if he made a point that men are children if left to their own devices, and that a real man will "man up" and learn compromise.  I have a 7 month old daughter, I had to cut back on my beloved hobby for her.  I've also been happily married to a non-gamer for 10 years, we found balance.  Not all gamers are like the ones the writer protrays us to be, some of us function quite normally in the real world (non gamer/hobbyist world) and have learned balance, because there is what? like 1-3% of the gamer population that actually relies on Magic for an income, thus most of our time. And the sooner the other 97-99% of us realize that the sooner we can actually balance play with a relationship. IMO he failed to puncuate the need for gamers to step back and understand what it is some women are looking for in dating/relationships, obviously AB wasn't feeling what JF brought to the table (her article was a poor way to convey this though).  Sure some are looking for a partner to sling cardboard with, but most are looking for some one to share time with that doesn't involve cards (or whatever).
I had high hopes from the opening paragraph but those soon evaporated.

[Diakonov]

I yawned.

+1

+1.  I bailed out about halfway through.

[BC]

I actually did read the whole thing, because I found it very interesting and thoughtful, despite being about 2x too long.  Writing style aside, it really made me think.

I think the problem with misogyny in Magic or gamers in general is very real, and not often addressed.  I'm sure the largest part of this is due to the fact that beyond being dominated by males, the gaming scene is dominated by young males, who are in general not as sensitive to these issues.  I guess it's ok to act like a 14 year-old asshole when you're 14, but when you're in your 20's it is less acceptable.  Yet for a lot of men (not just gamers), immaturity with respect to women is still very ingrained, especially in a culture where your peers are almost exclusively men.  For those of us who are a little older and possibly married, sexism is easier to spot.  I know that I notice things more now than I did before I was married.  My wife is very much a feminist "bitch" (and she would proudly admit it).  I've come to realize that in most cases she isn't being overly sensitive to things that are not offensive, but rather there are things that at their core are offensive, but to which most people are desensitized.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I cut Geordie some slack, since he's clearly trying to elicit the maximum audience reaction to what he feels is an important issue. It's definitely longer than optimal. My interpretation is that he framed it as a letter to a hypothetical daughter to create a character in the mind of the reader, designed to elicit sympathy and a different reaction than talking about adult women.

Geordie is giving Alyssa specifically too much latitude, since she didn't even hint at the legitimate gamer-rejection rationale posed by Geordie's and Anne Forsythe's articles. Alyssa deserved some public disapproval for her crass and frivolous post, but the attacks on her personal worth/virtue/appearance, and on women in general, were inappropriate, and should also be denounced. But Geordie's point is much larger and well taken, that the gaming community as a whole has a problem with how unwelcoming, even hostile, the community is to women.

Geordie's example of his own reaction to a similar instance a decade ago is a major piece of how he's interpreting this incident, and he's not wrong to see the same angst behind a lot of the nerdrage this time. He's not saying every gamer is a misogynist frat boy; he's saying that the portrayals of women in gaming, and the subset of gamers who do express these views, are enough to create a substantial problem. That much of his argument is hard to dispute.

[2nd_lawl]

"Alyssa deserved some public disapproval for her crass and frivolous post, but the attacks on her personal worth/virtue/appearance, and on women in general, were inappropriate, and should also be denounced."

innapproprate for what?
Memegenerator?
the "evidence" cited in this article is a joke. Things people say anonymously or pseudo-anonymously on the internet are not reflective of their actual behavior.  So someone called her a cunt on the internet? Deal with it. Every single public figure in the world gets called a cunt or a faggot thousands of times a day on the internet somewhere.  If you want to make the point that gamers are somehow mysognyist, then have some compelling evidence to back that up, not anecdotal bullshit.  The memegenerator pictures coupled with the "females in fighting games are wearing few clothes" argument (after all our attitudes towards women are determined by the costume of fictional characters in entertainment) completely discredits the rest of the article.

[BC]

So someone called her a cunt on the internet? Deal with it. Every single public figure in the world gets called a cunt or a faggot thousands of times a day on the internet somewhere. 

This illustrates my point beautifully.  Nobody should think this kind of thing is ok, or just shrug it off.  Every reasonable person should be offended by this, but unfortunately most people are desensitized. 

As far as defending Alyssa, I don't think she was the most upstanding example of an open-minded single person in this situation, but she was a fairly good example of an typical single person.  One time I didn't call a girl back after a first date because she was like a really big Dave Matthews fan.  Was that a shallow and kinda shitty thing to do?  Yeah, pretty much.  But at the time it was a good enough reason to convince me that it wasn't going to work.  The difference was, I didn't write a pithy article about it to incur the wrath of Dave Matthews fans.

[nataz]

Things people say anonymously or pseudo-anonymously on the internet are not reflective of their actual behavior.  So someone called her a cunt on the internet? Deal with it. Every single public figure in the world gets called a cunt or a faggot thousands of times a day on the internet somewhere.  If you want to make the point that gamers are somehow mysognyist, then have some compelling evidence to back that up, not anecdotal bullshit.

Do you see any irony in this, or is this a joke post. If so, okay, ha-ha you got me.

Its cool to call someone a cunt on the internet (let alone all the other strange/hateful/vulgar/threatening things that has been directed at her) b/c she wrote something shallow about someone on the internet? Either its not a big deal (and therefore why the reaction), or maybe after looking at the reaction her sterotype was more correct then we'd like to believe. Hey at least she used her real name AND met the guy in person first.

Honestly, this whole thing makes MTG players look terrible. At least John had some class.

[voltron00x]

So someone called her a cunt on the internet? Deal with it. Every single public figure in the world gets called a cunt or a faggot thousands of times a day on the internet somewhere. 

This illustrates my point beautifully.  Nobody should think this kind of thing is ok, or just shrug it off.  Every reasonable person should be offended by this, but unfortunately most people are desensitized. 

As far as defending Alyssa, I don't think she was the most upstanding example of an open-minded single person in this situation, but she was a fairly good example of an typical single person.  One time I didn't call a girl back after a first date because she was like a really big Dave Matthews fan.  Was that a shallow and kinda shitty thing to do?  Yeah, pretty much.  But at the time it was a good enough reason to convince me that it wasn't going to work.  The difference was, I didn't write a pithy article about it to incur the wrath of Dave Matthews fans.

Agree with your first point, and regarding the second, I don't think its shallow to write off someone b/c they like DMB, as that displays a serious flaw in their character from which it is impossible to recover.

[Delha]

This illustrates my point beautifully.  Nobody should think this kind of thing is ok, or just shrug it off.  Every reasonable person should be offended by this, but unfortunately most people are desensitized.

Maybe it's the fact that I'm a spiteful (edit: "vengeful" would have been a more accurate word choice) person, but in my book when you burn someone you give up your right to whine about being burned right back. If you walk up to a random stranger on the street and start punching him in the face, and his friends pull you off then start kicking your ass, you deserved it. It doesn't make it pretty, and it doesn't make it moral, but I'm not exactly going to be shedding any tears over it.

I consider gamer behavior towards women a serious issue, and agree entirely that it's something that needs to change. I just don't feel that this is a very good example of "why gamers are bad people", which plays a big part of why I dislike the article so much.

Deciding to not call someone back over a shallow reason is entirely within a person's right. Once you decide to rant about it in a very public way, that's an entirely different beast. There are worlds of difference between lecturing a subordinate behind closed doors as opposed to humiliating them in front of an entire office.

Taking things public is a very quick way to cross the line from appropriate (or even necessary) to cruel.

[bluemage55]

To quote a brilliant response that I read elsewhere:

This is a decent article on sexism in gamer culture, but it’s a bad article on Bereznakgate. In his drive to show his superiority to the sorts of sexist male gamers that he used to be, he glosses over some of the factors that are genuinely objectionable about her original article.

Bereznak rejection of Finkel was fair. She shouldn’t need to “give him a chance” if she doesn’t want to. That being said, her assessment of Finkel is not fair. Tait doesn’t acknowledge this unfairness, and even justifies it:

“Did he still play? ‘Yes.’ Strike one. How often? ‘I’m preparing for a tournament this weekend.’ Strike two. Who did he hang out with? ‘I’ve met all my best friends through Magic.’ Strike three.”

It was Anne Forsythe’s article that really crystallized in my mind the truth that these questions, and the conclusions Alyssa drew from them, are totally legitimate and within her rights. More than that, they don’t represent shallowness but a preemptive strike against being treated like a mere accessory.

They would be legitimate… if her goal wasn’t to go out with hedge fund guys. Tait is projecting reasoning into Bereznak’s article that isn’t present. She doesn’t reject him because she thinks he’s going to be unavailable during dating, because she wants to date an equally unavailable and obsessed class of guys. She rejects him because she considers his occupation and hobby low status, so low status that she thinks he was a bad person for not disclosing it, and so sinister that other people need to be warned about him.

Tait doesn’t really get it, because he is too busy White-Knighting. He does have a good point about sexism in gamer culture, and in some of the responses to Bereznak. Yet he inaccurately paints some of the objections to her article as sexism or denial of her right to determine her partners, when really they are criticizing the unfairness of her evaluation of Finkel.

[madmanmike25]

Zzzzzz.  Seriously though, I think this is more of a bedtime story for his "kiddo", because it would put anyone to sleep.

Sometimes having thicker skin helps.  Freedom of Speech.  People are entitled to their beliefs/attitudes.  Sometimes it's best to take the high road. Yada yada yada.

[AmbivalentDuck]

People are entitled to their beliefs/attitudes.

Moral and epistemological individualism isn't the sort of thing you'll find historical or academic support for.

As far as sexism among gamers, some people are assholes.  While I suspect that gaming increases the odds of someone being an asshole, it hasn't been difficult to avoid.  I've found that my wife is treated well at weekly EDH meetups and FNM, but not so well treated by Vintage and Standard players.  That might have changed now since Vintage is aging.

Bereznak misplayed a game.  She was "wrong" on the internet and paid the price.

[Diakonov]

Agree with your first point, and regarding the second, I don't think its shallow to write off someone b/c they like DMB, as that displays a serious flaw in their character from which it is impossible to recover.

lols

[mostapha]

Umm. 

I didn't mind the article.  I found it interesting and halfway insightful, though I would have written a lot of it differently.  I'm having trouble clarifying my thoughts on subject at hand because I mostly just don't care about some random tech writer blogging about what she considered a bad date.  Mostly, I just have questions about why it got published where it was. 

I care about the response in some ways, but I mostly care because gamers see themselves as intelligent, and it appears that most of them couldn't come up with something more creative or insightful to say than generic pejoratives that don't actually mean anything. 

Anyway…Tait was right about Bereznak's decision not to date Finkel being valid: he wasn't what she wanted. 

And, the gamer community at large was right about that decision being–in some ways–shallow.  Who cares?  Everyone is shallow.  Every social strata, subculture, or other sociological division has some defining characteristics, and everyone judges people based on them.  Do you have any idea how many people would be pissed off at me if I wrote a blog post like that after some of the dates I've had? 

That question wasn't purely rhetorical.  Here's a short list of groups that would hate me if I were to write the details about every decision I make and everything that's going through my head on a first date:

• Christians
• Atheists
• Agnostics
• White Taoists
• Buddhists
• Pagans
• Feminists
• Sluts (note: I define this word very specifically, and it has nothing to do with # of partners)
  
• Virgins
• Girls with an IQ below 115 (please note, this includes 84% of the U.S. Population)
• Girls who describe their musical taste as "anything but hip hop and country."
• Metal/Industrial fans
• Drum & Bass fans
• Dubstep fans
• Punk fans who don't know who Joe Strummer is.
• Girls who think Black Eyed Peas make "techno."
• Girls who think deadmau5 is musically interesting in any way. 
• Girls who hate Opera, Classical, or Choral music
  
• Hippies
• Hipsters
• pot-heads
• Alcoholics
• Girls who like/liked Sex and the City
• Girls who wear Jeans Shorts or Jeans Skirts
• Grils who wear Christian Audiger
• Equestrians
• Rednecks
• Hunters
• Vegetarians/Vegans
• Literature/English majors or degree holders
• Sociology majors or degree holders (if they got the degree in the U.S.)
• Gold-diggers
• Girls who went to college for an Mrs. degree
• Girls who want to be a stay-at-home Mom

I'm also currently dating a Feminist, Agnostic Industrial fan who's Mother trains horses and was wearing Jeans Shorts when we met. 

So, none of them are absolute "I won't date you" groups, but identifying any of them puts me in a mode where I start "playing Duress effects" to figure out if they're examples of the parts of those sub-cultures or groups that I can't stand.  Similar to Bereznak's little 3-strikes sentence, I can formulate questions I can ask based on any of those groups that lead to a similar decision tree, though most of them are not nearly as direct as hers.  Some of them (the Religions, mostly) get very complicated within minutes, and most of the time girls have no idea why I rejected them because it's almost never worth discussing: my views are no reason for them to change themselves. 

Bereznak's article–taken as the click-mongering and trolling it was–was deplorable, but this isn't a man v. woman issue or a nerd v. "normal" issue (whatever normal is supposed to mean).  The issue arose between two groups of people with vaguely arbitrary dating standards not being smart enough to do anything but hurl insults at each other. 

Bereznak isn't a bitch, she's just a troll who knows how to generate ad revenue. 

And, I honestly don't think that it's valid to call the entire gamer community misogynist just because they're too dumb to come up with better insults than "bitch," "slut," or "cunt".  That doesn't mean they don't respect women or any of the other generalizations that people have made: it just means that they're morons. 

[2nd_lawl]

Things people say anonymously or pseudo-anonymously on the internet are not reflective of their actual behavior.  So someone called her a cunt on the internet? Deal with it. Every single public figure in the world gets called a cunt or a faggot thousands of times a day on the internet somewhere.  If you want to make the point that gamers are somehow mysognyist, then have some compelling evidence to back that up, not anecdotal bullshit.

Do you see any irony in this, or is this a joke post. If so, okay, ha-ha you got me.

Its cool to call someone a cunt on the internet (let alone all the other strange/hateful/vulgar/threatening things that has been directed at her) b/c she wrote something shallow about someone on the internet? Either its not a big deal (and therefore why the reaction), or maybe after looking at the reaction her sterotype was more correct then we'd like to believe. Hey at least she used her real name AND met the guy in person first.

Honestly, this whole thing makes MTG players look terrible. At least John had some class.

Calling someone on the internet a cunt doesn't make you a misogynist, it makes you an internet user.  Consider this disclaimer from a particularly notorious board that shall remain unnamed:

"The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."

In actuality it applies to most of the internet, including the places where Tait's "evidence" comes from: Twitter and Memegenerator.  To take what is tantamount to the bathroom grafitti of the internet and pin it to the backs of gamers(a phenomenally diverse group of people) or "gamer culture" is unfair and makes for a shitty argument.