The Color of Shop

[yespuhyren]

This game has become way too streamlined.  Type 1 was so much fun!

Yeah. Nature of the beast, I think. Doing anything competitively always seems to ends up limiting your options.

To be honest that isn't it at all.  I pilot a lot of decks that are very different and they are extremely successful.  People don't know how to build decks for the most part.  People read online articles, know the best cards, and stick them into decks.  Thanks to the internet, there are mostly netdeckers.  Most people will build Zoo or Merfolk, but how many people will ever actually build a deck from the ground up?

People go see what wins or Top 8s, then they copy it.  It's sad when the innovation stops, though I know you are far from a netdecker yourself.

Would that be 7-10 split with thirst, welder, wheel, twister, windfall, drains, shops, sundering titan, and gilded lotus?

It was actually just Drain/Shop/Slaver with Draw7s, it was a while before 7/10 Split as it was pre-Darksteel

[nataz]

meandeck slaver with brainstorms?

[yespuhyren]

I tried googling it but could no longer find it.  It was not a deck that was invented by any of the big names, it was somewhere in Germany.  Meandeck's version didn't run Drains or Library, opting to run Chalice instead.

Just for fun, here is my old Workshop Slaver 2004 list.

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Grim Monolith

3x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
4x Thirst for Knowledge

1x Memory Jar
1x Tinker
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Timetwister
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor

3x Gilded Lotus
3x Mindslaver

4x Goblin Welder

1x Library of Alexandria
4x City of Brass
4x Volcanic Island
4x Underground Sea
4x Mishra's Workshop

[Delha]

This game has become way too streamlined.  Type 1 was so much fun!

Yeah. Nature of the beast, I think. Doing anything competitively always seems to ends up limiting your options.

To be honest that isn't it at all.  I pilot a lot of decks that are very different and they are extremely successful.

If you'd like to discuss this further in a new thread, I'll happily do so. In the interest of not derailing though, let's go ahead and call it "agree to disagree" for now.

[yespuhyren]

This game has become way too streamlined.  Type 1 was so much fun!

Yeah. Nature of the beast, I think. Doing anything competitively always seems to ends up limiting your options.

To be honest that isn't it at all.  I pilot a lot of decks that are very different and they are extremely successful.

If you'd like to discuss this further in a new thread, I'll happily do so. In the interest of not derailing though, let's go ahead and call it "agree to disagree" for now.

Agreed to disagree.  The viability of rogue decks vs top/netdecks is not a new argument and one that will ever end.  This thread needs to go no further on that topic, it's about Shops. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think shops will soon become THE only viable archetype over time.  Every other deck gets neat tools and broken spells, but only shop gets cards that prevent ALL spells from being played.  Eventually, there will be enough of them where every card will stop your opponent from making a play.  Chalice, golem, trini are the biggest.  Sphere and thorn behind them.  Tangle behind that.  I think the artifact ivory mask will help against oath, tendrils, and hurkylls...but there still needs to be more.  Eventually, there will be even better or more spheres...like a 4 or 3 cost that makes spells cost 2 more to play.  Things that put your opponent 2 turns behind with 1 card - like trinisphere.  The most broken turn 1 win 99% of games deck won't stand a chance vs a deck that can choke off all mana and castability on turn 1 with consistency.  Shops haven't gotten there yet, but ever since mirrodin, they've exponentially gotten closer.

Edit: A phyrexian mana/free way to stop FoW to get down the turn 1 chalice/sphere with impunity is the big whammy that will be printed eventually.

[Twaun007]

I think shops will soon become THE only viable archetype over time.  Every other deck gets neat tools and broken spells, but only shop gets cards that prevent ALL spells from being played.

 

I don't comprehend Workshops being able to preventing all spells being played? The best Workshop hand will never beat the best blue hand. Workshop's just don't have the ability to interact with opposing spells. It's a fundamental flaw within the archetype.

Edit: A phyrexian mana/free way to stop FoW to get down the turn 1 chalice/sphere with impunity is the big whammy that will be printed eventually.

I'm sure this wouldn't make Blue decks even more powerful..... I mean, it worked with Mental Misstep in Legacy right?

[Prospero]

I think shops will soon become THE only viable archetype over time.  Every other deck gets neat tools and broken spells, but only shop gets cards that prevent ALL spells from being played.

 

I don't comprehend Workshops being able to preventing all spells being played? The best Workshop hand will never beat the best blue hand. Workshop's just don't have the ability to interact with opposing spells. It's a fundamental flaw within the archetype.

Edit: A phyrexian mana/free way to stop FoW to get down the turn 1 chalice/sphere with impunity is the big whammy that will be printed eventually.

I'm sure this wouldn't make Blue decks even more powerful..... I mean, it worked with Mental Misstep in Legacy right?

Regarding the best Shop hand not beating the best blue hand: doesn't this depend on who's on the play?  Yes, you're right, a Shop deck doesn't generally have the tools (re: instants, especially free instants) to interact with an opponent who is going off, but Shop decks can have hands where even Force of Will + blue card isn't enough.  I've had hand that dropped Sphere and Chalice 0, all with a backup Trinisphere.

The strength of a Shop deck isn't interacting with an opponent while the opponent is using the stack.  The Shop player, however does have strengths that the blue pilot doesn't - mostly built around the ability to abuse Mishra's Workshop (along with traditional fast mana and Ancient Tombs) to power through threats before the blue pilot has managed to establish much of a mana base.  A Shop player may not have the consistency that a blue pilot does (because of fetches to smooth out a mana base, along with cards like Preordain, Brainstorm, Ponder, Ancestral, etc., which are all cheap and help to find the cards needed in a given situation).  Still, the Shop pilot trades some of that consistency for brokenness.  I can end the game before you can interact with me, just as you can end the game before I can interact with you. 

I don't think that it makes Shop a weak pillar, just different.  In many regards, Shop Prison is the last true control deck in the environment.

[Twaun007]

I think shops will soon become THE only viable archetype over time.  Every other deck gets neat tools and broken spells, but only shop gets cards that prevent ALL spells from being played.

 

I don't comprehend Workshops being able to preventing all spells being played? The best Workshop hand will never beat the best blue hand. Workshop's just don't have the ability to interact with opposing spells. It's a fundamental flaw within the archetype.

Edit: A phyrexian mana/free way to stop FoW to get down the turn 1 chalice/sphere with impunity is the big whammy that will be printed eventually.

I'm sure this wouldn't make Blue decks even more powerful..... I mean, it worked with Mental Misstep in Legacy right?

EDIT: Let me be clear on this. I'm talking about the stack and being on the draw. By not being able to interact with your opponent you preemptively put yourself behind the 8 ball.

[Prospero]

I think shops will soon become THE only viable archetype over time.  Every other deck gets neat tools and broken spells, but only shop gets cards that prevent ALL spells from being played.

 

I don't comprehend Workshops being able to preventing all spells being played? The best Workshop hand will never beat the best blue hand. Workshop's just don't have the ability to interact with opposing spells. It's a fundamental flaw within the archetype.

Edit: A phyrexian mana/free way to stop FoW to get down the turn 1 chalice/sphere with impunity is the big whammy that will be printed eventually.

I'm sure this wouldn't make Blue decks even more powerful..... I mean, it worked with Mental Misstep in Legacy right?

EDIT: Let me be clear on this. I'm talking about the stack and being on the draw. By not being able to interact with your opponent you preemptively put yourself behind the 8 ball.

Fair, though I'd say that it's not as far back as some think.  There's a reason why Shop decks have been top 8'ing consistently, and I don't think it's because the pilots played 2/3 of their games with the benefit of being on the play.

It's definitely not preferable to be on the draw, but as with most things, it's a trade.  Shop and Tomb allow you to power out expensive spells easily, Islands allow you to run some awesome draw spells and countermagic.  At some level it's just a really big game of Rock/Paper/Scissors with all the pilots intent on breaking their part of the puzzle.  What if Rock didn't lose to Paper, etc. (what if I ran a Shop deck with 9 cards that were dedicated to beating Dredge, what if I ran a Dredge deck that was as fast as some of the other combo decks that ran Rituals, etc.)

You have a really good point in saying that this is a weakness of Shop (and I know you already know what I'm saying, but I'm saying it for the benefit of whoever is reading this) I'd just add that it's a weakness for which you were traded strength in other areas.

[Delha]

...The most broken turn 1 win 99% of games deck won't stand a chance vs a deck that can choke off all mana and castability on turn 1 with consistency.  Shops haven't gotten there yet, but ever since mirrodin, they've exponentially gotten closer.

Edit: A phyrexian mana/free way to stop FoW to get down the turn 1 chalice/sphere with impunity is the big whammy that will be printed eventually.

You argument is inherently flawed. Unless you can act on turn zero, it's practically impossible to get more than a 50% win ratio against a 99% T1 combo deck. Assuming neither of you has Forces/Leylines/etc, losing the roll loses you the game, and winning it wins you the game.

Being able to punch through FoW on your T1 doesn't matter if you never get to your T1, which is exactly what would happen when playing against that hypothetical combo deck.

[TheWhiteDragon]

If you are on the draw, yes....If you are on the play, the T1 combo killer would never get to cast a spell.

I forsee a time with the right printings, just by the nature of what a shop deck does, where they will be able to drop a sequence of chalice/sphere effects through FoWs that will choke out ANY deck when on the play and the opponent will never be able to do more than "land, go".  If they ever make a card like serum powder, but allowing for a reflip of the coin (something like "If X is in your hand and you lose the flip, you may remove X from the game and reflip"), then Shops would be most to benefit with such a card.  There is no deck where "on the play" is more critical than for shops.  If ever they make a card like that, then shops will be the ONLY viable deck.

We're not there yet, but let's check again in 5 years...if there's still Vintage.

[yespuhyren]

As someone who has been playing Stax since the 4x Trinisphere days, I can tell you Workshop Trinisphere does nothing against waste your shop go.  Ancient Tomb, Mox, Mox Lodestone Golem does nothing about Land, Mox, Mox Oath.  If you have the chalice, you win.  But that's like Oath going first and play Orchard Mox Oath, and they have that statistically often as you have Workshop/Mox/Lodestone.  You still need another card to seal the deal, they don't.

People forget that Lodestone is non-artifact.  First turn Lodestone Golem without a Chalice isn't yet a lock.  Land, Mox Nature's Claim.  These are all common plays. 

All combo decks have played Hurkyl's Recall and/or Rebuild to up their own storm count.  They also usually just say GG if they cast it end of turn.  That's the problem.  You can lock away all you want, if they can get a few lands, cast one EOT, and go off, you lose.

Being beat for years by Rich M (Shockwave)'s U/R Landstill deck taught me more about workshops and card relevancy than anyone will learn from an article.  When you are constantly being grilled by the best and losing, it drives you.  While I did put more hours into playing than most people should; having Rich show up at tournaments and constantly reteach me lessons about card advantage (not verbally.  By smashing my face in)  Rich was the reason I cut Sword of Fire and Ice, as well as cards like Sphere of Resistance.

For anyone who wants to read what got me into shops, this 100 card tournament report was what made me want to play shops.  I sold/traded everything I had to get my shops, and within a few weeks had a T1.5 deck (pre-split from Vintage).  After that I finally picked up power and have never looked back or played any other archetype at a tournament.  I want every untap to be dreaded, as I want every draw to be a threat immediately.  I have always said and believed that when I have a workshop deck that will tap out every turn and play the biggest threat possible consistently, I can retire from my search for the perfect Workshop deck.

[Delha]

If you are on the draw, yes....If you are on the play, the T1 combo killer would never get to cast a spell.

I forsee a time with the right printings, just by the nature of what a shop deck does, where they will be able to drop a sequence of chalice/sphere effects through FoWs that will choke out ANY deck when on the play and the opponent will never be able to do more than "land, go".  If they ever make a card like serum powder, but allowing for a reflip of the coin (something like "If X is in your hand and you lose the flip, you may remove X from the game and reflip"), then Shops would be most to benefit with such a card.  There is no deck where "on the play" is more critical than for shops.  If ever they make a card like that, then shops will be the ONLY viable deck.

We're not there yet, but let's check again in 5 years...if there's still Vintage.

You're missing the point entirely. I don't care about how much you believe that Wizards is going to print another Trinisphere that costs or other similar nonsense. All I'm saying is that no deck without the capability of interacting on turn 0 will be able to consistently win against another deck that has a 99% T1 goldfish. The best you can do is become as good as they are at goldfishing and hoping you win the flip.

"Coinflip Powder" is a stupid and pointless card. It would not make Shops invincible for the simple reason that EVERYONE would run it, thereby negating the benefit. The binary nature of the situation makes it inherently wrong to think that winning the the flip matters more to one player than the other. If being on the play guarantees victory to the Shop player, then it is equally critical to the opponent that the Shop player NOT win the flip. It's like say, Kobe taking a make-or-break shot at the buzzer. It's exactly as important to the Lakers that he makes it as it is to the Celtics that he doesn't.

[LotusHead]

All I'm saying is that no deck without the capability of interacting on turn 0 will be able to consistently win against another deck that has a 99% T1 goldfish.

this thread completely lost me with the discussion about the worlds best deck ever, the 99% turn 1 goldfish win deck.

[Delha]

All I'm saying is that no deck without the capability of interacting on turn 0 will be able to consistently win against another deck that has a 99% T1 goldfish.

this thread completely lost me with the discussion about the worlds best deck ever, the 99% turn 1 goldfish win deck.

Sorry, I know I was taking the whole "Shops lack interaction on T0" discussion a bit too far down a tangent. Seeing people use nonsensical logic always bugs the crap out of me, and just wasn't willing to let the ridiculous claim below slide by. Two decks which both "always win" on turn 1 will go 50/50 against one another, rather than one dominating the other.

The most broken turn 1 win 99% of games deck won't stand a chance vs a deck that can choke off all mana and castability on turn 1 with consistency.