[Premium Article] DOOMSDAY RETURNS: How to Build Doomsday Piles and Win in T1

[Troy_Costisick]

This is a really cool deck, Steve.  I wondered if you might try a Doomsday/Maniac deck after listening to your last podcast.  Grats on making the top8

Peace,

-Troy

[Demonic Attorney]

There will be a response from the staff within a day or two on the issue of withholding decklists, which have historically been free content available to the community, while promoting subscription-based articles.

[Smmenen]

This is a really cool deck, Steve.  I wondered if you might try a Doomsday/Maniac deck after listening to your last podcast.  Grats on making the top8

Peace,

-Troy

 

Yeah -- that's true !  I had forgotten that I talked about this combo in the podcast as well.  

Just a note for players who are intending to play this deck this weekend: The decklist in this article is NOT the deck I played at the Waterbury.  I made last minute changes based upon a realization I had the morning of the tournament.   This article was written before the tournament.   

Hopefully, Ray will post top 8 decklists soon.

[H]

Just a note for players who are intending to play this deck this weekend: The decklist in this article is NOT the deck I played at the Waterbury.  I made last minute changes based upon a realization I had the morning of the tournament.   This article was written before the tournament.

Well, most clever people will know the 1 card for certain you added, what you didn't take out, leaving us a few ideas what you did swap to go +1 on it.  I have my guess but I haven't really played around with the deck to see what I feel it might really be.

[Smmenen]

Just a note for players who are intending to play this deck this weekend: The decklist in this article is NOT the deck I played at the Waterbury.  I made last minute changes based upon a realization I had the morning of the tournament.   This article was written before the tournament.

Well, most clever people will know the 2 cards for certain you added, what you didn't take out, leaving us a few ideas what you did swap for the 1 of and the other +1.  I have my guesses but I haven't really played around with the deck to see what I feel it might really be.

Actually, I only changed one card: I cut Gitaxian Probe for the 4th Thoughtseize.  I realized the morning of that there are pile solutions that don't require Probe.   

[H]

Actually, I only changed one card: I cut Gitaxian Probe for the 4th Thoughtseize.  I realized the morning of that there are pile solutions that don't require Probe.  

Yeah, i just edited, because I realized when reviewing the decklist that the other was already there, heh.

But my guess on what you cut was spot on, I felt that was what you weren't playing.

[MaximumCDawg]

Bought the article, liked it, but sadly can't really play this deck.  It requires power (namely lotus and ancestral) to make it tick.  Meh.

I'm concerned about this deck from the standpoint of a habitual fish player, though.  I think Steve's right - once Doomsday resolves, disrupting the combo is incredibly difficult.  Assume you win the counterwar over Doomsday; big deal, the game goes on, and there are 4 more "I-WIN" topdecks in the deck.  Assume you win the counter war over the first draw spell after Doomsday; big deal, they draw into their pile anyway unless you can seal the deal immediately.  Once that first draw spell resolves, a proper pile should be neigh indestructible.

If this deck becomes popular, the most potent sideboard plan appears to me to be cap effects.  If you run wastelands / fetches, it's not difficult to ramp up to a 2 or 3 storm Bitter Ordeal on turn 1 or 2; that should totally wreck a Doomsday deck.  Of course, maindeck Flusterstorm is a pretty damn good answer to this.  Shops using Jester's Cap might be very deadly, however.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Ask Paul how aven mindsensor deals with doomsday.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Guess what, All Star? Your main deck is more than a DOZEN cards off, which is actually an assload of cards that actually make a difference for a combo deck, and your sideboard has a whopping 5 cards that are the same.

Any more Shaolin dart throwers out there?

I understand that this is an income source for you, but personal hostility is inappropriate.

My understanding is that the non-trivial differences boil down to:
Rituals -> Missteps
Probes -> Duresses

In other words, he trades explosive speed for disruption.  This informs large changes in the sideboard where he has to lose the entire Tinker package since he needs Dredge hate to address lost speed.

Without more public material available, it's hard to discuss the list.  From what I can see, the good matchups have been made better and the bad matchups have been made worse.  As an example, he has to defend his black mana sources against Shops since he can't crack a single fetch for a Sea into Ritual.  He's traded black mana fixing for Missteps which lack meaningful targets against Shops.

[Smmenen]

I'm not sure what you are comparing to, since I developed this deck from scratch.  So far as I know, no one else developed a Maniac list.  It's definitely true that my maindeck is weak against shops, but my sb plan is very strong against shop.  

Also, the focus of this article is building Doomsday piles   I've written about how to construct piles, trying to impart skills to the new (or experienced) Doomsday player, so they might able to play and enjoy this strategy.  Let's not get too focused on card-by-card comparisons. 

[Meddling Mike]

Just an FYI for anybody that purchased this article. If you were to c/p the decklist from this article there will be no reprisal from the moderation staff for doing so.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm not sure what you are comparing to, since I developed this deck from scratch.

I went 4-1 in swiss (had to play in last round due to opponent having a draw) then split the finals. I lost to an Infect deck where I didn't draw black mana in 2/3 games and then lost one game the rest of the event (game 2 of top4). I played against Infect, G/W Haterator, Bob Gush, 5c Workshops, Demon Oath, RGu Madness, and Ur Fish.

(List identical to what I posted, except that Maniac was replaced with Ponder which wasn't yet legal.)

It's definitely true that my maindeck is weak against shops, but my sb plan is very strong against shop.

Stronger than adding more artifact mana, Tinker, 3x Steel Sabotage, and going up to 4x Hurkyl's?

I'm not disputing that your list is quite good, but I think you've min-maxed.  Mental Misstep addresses matchups that are already good at the cost of the Dark Rituals that allow you to race Dredge and make board position less of an issue vs Shops.

[emidln]

Meh, credit discussions are worthless (and against TMD rules I believe).

The core of this deck is just the 45 cards that every other Gushbond deck plays. Smmenen built a Ritual-based Gush Storm deck then he built a Gush Control list with an infinitely improved kill condition after recognizing that (at least in his opinion) the best part about the Ritual Gush Storm deck was ability to kill this turn or next turn, with heavy disruption, for 3-4 mana using a card that is a 4-of. He observed that this compact win condition needs mana that the Gushbond engine can already make so he paired a compact win condition with a boatload of disruption.  You also need to understand that part of the reason we (being you and I with the doomsday list that we tested and I played at the last Xtreme Games) can afford to play so many sideboard cards for shops in our list is that we don't play much, if any, dredge hate. Our Dredge hate is a turn 2 kill w/Force+Flusterstorm backup. If you're not playing Dark Rituals and not able to consistently kill undisrupted on turn 2, you need to play yard hate and ways to stop dredge from quickly answering it and buying you under their Bazaar. This limits what you can do to transform against Workshops.

[Joblin Velder]

Just an FYI for anybody that purchased this article. If you were to c/p the decklist from this article there will be no reprisal from the moderation staff for doing so.

Please, do so!

[AmbivalentDuck]

Meh, credit discussions are worthless (and against TMD rules I believe).

I'm not sure what you are comparing to

I'm establishing the existence of a tested reference build that includes Rituals.  I don't see any hint of an argument about "who starting putting Maniac into Doomsday first."

You also need to understand that part of the reason we (being you and I with the doomsday list that we tested and I played at the last Xtreme Games) can afford to play so many sideboard cards for shops in our list is that we don't play much, if any, dredge hate. Our Dredge hate is a turn 2 kill w/Force+Flusterstorm backup. If you're not playing Dark Rituals and not able to consistently kill undisrupted on turn 2, you need to play yard hate and ways to stop dredge from quickly answering it and buying you under their Bazaar. This limits what you can do to transform against Workshops.

at the cost of the Dark Rituals that allow you to race Dredge

That seems to be in agreement with something I already said?

[JACO]

Guess what, All Star? Your main deck is more than a DOZEN cards off, which is actually an assload of cards that actually make a difference for a combo deck, and your sideboard has a whopping 5 cards that are the same.

Any more Shaolin dart throwers out there?

I understand that this is an income source for you, but personal hostility is inappropriate.

My understanding is that the non-trivial differences boil down to:
Rituals -> Missteps
Probes -> Duresses

In other words, he trades explosive speed for disruption.  This informs large changes in the sideboard where he has to lose the entire Tinker package since he needs Dredge hate to address lost speed.

Without more public material available, it's hard to discuss the list.  From what I can see, the good matchups have been made better and the bad matchups have been made worse.  As an example, he has to defend his black mana sources against Shops since he can't crack a single fetch for a Sea into Ritual.  He's traded black mana fixing for Missteps which lack meaningful targets against Shops.

I don't have any personal hostility or feelings on the matter. This is a thread about an article that details Doomsday stacks and interactions, and you have contributed nothing to the thread other than proclaiming that Steve's list was "within 8 cards" of a different list (which is actually a ton of cards when you consider all of the auto-includes in Vintage decks). You are the one calling "bullshit" (your words, not mine) for some unknown reason. I merely pointed out that in your rush to group everything together, Steve's list in in fact quite different.

For all of those who merely care about a decklist, you can hop on over to Ray's tournament organizer report, where the Top 8 decklists are up (including Steve's Doomsday list):
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43240.0

Having a knife, potato, flour, and a piece of cod doesn't mean you know how to make fish and chips. It just means you have some ingredients.

For those of you who actually want to understand why the deck (and sideboard) was assembled as it was, how it plays out, and the multitude of options you have when casting Doomsday, there's an outstanding article available. I'm not saying that merely because of my affiliation with EC, but because Doomsday is one of my favorite strategies in both Legacy and Vintage, and because I believe that this article, like Steve's Cobra Gush article on EC, are among the very best he's ever written on any site. I personally am usually only interested in an article if I learn something from it, and I think probably 99% of Vintage players can take away some good things from this article.

[Meddling Mike]

I see Jaco already linked it, but for ease of discussion:

Stephen Menedian:
4 Force of Will
4 Preordain
4 Gush
4 Thoughtseize
4 Doomsday
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Duress
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Mental Misstep
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Fastbond
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
Sideboard:
3 Teferi's Realm
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Yixalid Jailer
2 Island
4 Leyline of the Void

[AmbivalentDuck]

you have contributed nothing to the thread other than proclaiming that Steve's list was "within 8 cards" of a different list

It's definitely true that my maindeck is weak against shops, but my sb plan is very strong against shop.

Stronger than adding more artifact mana, Tinker, 3x Steel Sabotage, and going up to 4x Hurkyl's?

I'm not disputing that your list is quite good, but I think you've min-maxed.  Mental Misstep addresses matchups that are already good at the cost of the Dark Rituals that allow you to race Dredge and make board position less of an issue vs Shops.

This is a thread about an article that details Doomsday stacks and interactions

Editor's Blurb:

Hot off a Top 8 at the Waterbury/TMD 15 Open playing Doomsday, Stephen Menendian has written a primer on this unusual and exciting archetype. In this primer Stephen explains optimal deck construction, Doomsday piles, and sideboarding options and plans.

[Smmenen]

In this article, I take some pains to discuss the development and tuning of my deck.   It would be redundant to reiterate or restate that process here.  

Meh, credit discussions are worthless (and against TMD rules I believe).

The core of this deck is just the 45 cards that every other Gushbond deck plays. Smmenen built a Ritual-based Gush Storm deck then he built a Gush Control list with an infinitely improved kill condition after recognizing that (at least in his opinion) the best part about the Ritual Gush Storm deck was ability to kill this turn or next turn, with heavy disruption, for 3-4 mana using a card that is a 4-of. He observed that this compact win condition needs mana that the Gushbond engine can already make so he paired a compact win condition with a boatload of disruption.  You also need to understand that part of the reason we (being you and I with the doomsday list that we tested and I played at the last Xtreme Games) can afford to play so many sideboard cards for shops in our list is that we don't play much, if any, dredge hate. Our Dredge hate is a turn 2 kill w/Force+Flusterstorm backup. If you're not playing Dark Rituals and not able to consistently kill undisrupted on turn 2, you need to play yard hate and ways to stop dredge from quickly answering it and buying you under their Bazaar. This limits what you can do to transform against Workshops.

In my view, skimping on Dredge hate with such a strategy is precisely what causes Dredge to continue to win large scale Vintage events.   I would never, ever run less than a full complement of Dredge hate, regardless of the circumstances. 

[emidln]

Skimping on dredge hate because you feel that you won't play it or can take a loss is different from my deck is consistent as fast or faster than Dredge, I don't need as much hate.

[AmbivalentDuck]

In this article, I take some pains to discuss the development and tuning of my deck.   It would be redundant to reiterate or restate that process here.  

Regardless of the process you used, I'm stating that the conclusion is sub-optimal.  I have no desire to pay to review a flawed process.

[honestabe]

In this article, I take some pains to discuss the development and tuning of my deck.   It would be redundant to reiterate or restate that process here.  

Regardless of the process you used, I'm stating that the conclusion is sub-optimal.  I have no desire to pay to review a flawed process.

You don't want to pay; we get it.

Geez

[Smmenen]

Since you do not feel that MM is important or necessary in this deck, I conclude that your statement is false and opinion poorly informed.   Mental Misstep is not negotiable in this deck; it's simply mandator:   

If there is a deck in Vintage that maximizes the use of Mental Misstep, it's this one.  No other deck benefits from the tempo play as much, and no other deck needs it as much to protect the execution of its combo.  With the proliferation of MM, this deck needs MM to protect both Ancestral in the Dday stack which uses it, but equally important when tutored up in the early game. 

It's definitely true that my maindeck is weak against shops, but my sb plan is very strong against shop.

Stronger than adding more artifact mana, Tinker, 3x Steel Sabotage, and going up to 4x Hurkyl's?

Yes, actually. 

My Workshop sideboard plan is stronger than yours (going up to 4 Hurkyl's, adding two lands, and 3 Realms) post board.  It's amazing that even without the Dredge hate you're endorsing a weaker anti-Shop plan than I have with less space.  I tested configurations similar to the one you are proposing (although not identical), and found there are to be multiple problems with them, including the interference with the plan B.   My plan has tested very effectively.

Moreover, your Dredge plan is not even remotely good enough for real life.  Even a turn two Dark Ritual, Doomsday, + Gush for the win that turn is often not fast enough.  The Titan Dredge decks can win on turn one, and consistently win on turn two.  And you only win faster if you have a god draw or a perfect alignment. 

To that point, I win about 50% of games, not with Doomsday, but with Gushbond into Tendrils.   And alot of those kills are simply Gushing and disrupting over many turns into a critical mass Will.  In other words, the vast majority of the time this deck isn't even remotely fast enough to just beat Dredge by racing it. 

Dredge is a real deck, and continuing to use spurious sideboard plans such as the non-plan (or Race Dredge) is no-doubt a reason for its continued success. 

[Stormanimagus]

Since you do not feel that MM is important or necessary in this deck, I conclude that your statement is false and opinion poorly informed.   Mental Misstep is not negotiable in this deck; it's simply mandator:   

If there is a deck in Vintage that maximizes the use of Mental Misstep, it's this one.  No other deck benefits from the tempo play as much, and no other deck needs it as much to protect the execution of its combo.  With the proliferation of MM, this deck needs MM to protect both Ancestral in the Dday stack which uses it, but equally important when tutored up in the early game. 

It's definitely true that my maindeck is weak against shops, but my sb plan is very strong against shop.

Stronger than adding more artifact mana, Tinker, 3x Steel Sabotage, and going up to 4x Hurkyl's?

Yes, actually. 

My Workshop sideboard plan is stronger than yours (going up to 4 Hurkyl's, adding two lands, and 3 Realms) post board.  It's amazing that even without the Dredge hate you're endorsing a weaker anti-Shop plan than I have with less space.  I tested configurations similar to the one you are proposing (although not identical), and found there are to be multiple problems with them, including the interference with the plan B.   My plan has tested very effectively.

Moreover, your Dredge plan is not even remotely good enough for real life.  Even a turn two Dark Ritual, Doomsday, + Gush for the win that turn is often not fast enough.  The Titan Dredge decks can win on turn one, and consistently win on turn two.  And you only win faster if you have a god draw or a perfect alignment. 

To that point, I win about 50% of games, not with Doomsday, but with Gushbond into Tendrils.   And alot of those kills are simply Gushing and disrupting over many turns into a critical mass Will.  In other words, the vast majority of the time this deck isn't even remotely fast enough to just beat Dredge by racing it. 

Dredge is a real deck, and continuing to use spurious sideboard plans such as the non-plan (or Race Dredge) is no-doubt a reason for its continued success. 

Agreed that most players underestimate dredge, but. . .

1. How does Dredge EVER win on turn 1? That seems nigh impossible
2. How does it consistently win on turn 2? Especially post-board when it is forced to side in anti-hate?
    Am I missing something about Dredge? It seems like a lot of their wins come no earlier than about turn 3 unless they get a god
    Draw. Is that just incorrect?

But again, you are absolutely right that players skimping on dredge hate is a very good reason why it does so well.

-Storm

[cvarosky80]

What are your thoughts on using Energy Flux in the board over the Realms as an alternative? I understand that it doesn't wipe out their board immediately on your turn like the Realms do, but it does provide a way of ensuring that those Sphere effects won't prevent you from playing spells on their turn (Like an EOT Hurkyl's for example).

[Cruel Ultimatum]

What are your thoughts on using Energy Flux in the board over the Realms as an alternative? I understand that it doesn't wipe out their board immediately on your turn like the Realms do, but it does provide a way of ensuring that those Sphere effects won't prevent you from playing spells on their turn (Like an EOT Hurkyl's for example).

A better question is probobably in what situation is e. flux better?

[Elric]

1. How does Dredge EVER win on turn 1? That seems nigh impossible

I'm the farthest thing from a Dredge expert, but Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, and Bazaar of Baghdad in opening seven probably has a good chance to win on turn 1 in a Fatestitcher list like the 1st place one here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43240.msg594113

Now, it's extremely unlikely to get such a starting hand, but play a few hundred games and you're likely to see it (Lotus Petal replacing Black Lotus would also have a chance).

[Prospero]

1. How does Dredge EVER win on turn 1? That seems nigh impossible

I'm the farthest thing from a Dredge expert, but Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, and Bazaar of Baghdad in opening seven probably has a good chance to win on turn 1 in a Fatestitcher list like the 1st place one here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43240.msg594113

Now, it's extremely unlikely to get such a starting hand, but play a few hundred games and you're likely to see it (Lotus Petal replacing Black Lotus would also have a chance).

LED, Bazaar of Baghdad, Golgari Grave-Troll and then hitting a Fatestitcher off the first Dredge is another good way to get the game started for Dredge.

Dredge shouldn't have been a problem for this long.  I'm really surprised that Dredge hasn't been hated out of the metagame yet. 

[AmbivalentDuck]

My Workshop sideboard plan is stronger than yours (going up to 4 Hurkyl's, adding two lands, and 3 Realms) post board.

You're arguing that 3x Realm and an Island is better than 3x Steel Sabotage, a bunch of artifact mana, and Tinker->BSC.

Since you've cut Dark Ritual, this is like debating Cat-Stax sideboard slots with someone who cut Lodestone Golem.  The intelligence of the cut aside, fewer Spheres and butts greatly shift the deck's priorities.

[voltron00x]

Since you do not feel that MM is important or necessary in this deck, I conclude that your statement is false and opinion poorly informed.   Mental Misstep is not negotiable in this deck; it's simply mandator:   

If there is a deck in Vintage that maximizes the use of Mental Misstep, it's this one.  No other deck benefits from the tempo play as much, and no other deck needs it as much to protect the execution of its combo.  With the proliferation of MM, this deck needs MM to protect both Ancestral in the Dday stack which uses it, but equally important when tutored up in the early game. 

It's definitely true that my maindeck is weak against shops, but my sb plan is very strong against shop.

Stronger than adding more artifact mana, Tinker, 3x Steel Sabotage, and going up to 4x Hurkyl's?

Yes, actually. 

My Workshop sideboard plan is stronger than yours (going up to 4 Hurkyl's, adding two lands, and 3 Realms) post board.  It's amazing that even without the Dredge hate you're endorsing a weaker anti-Shop plan than I have with less space.  I tested configurations similar to the one you are proposing (although not identical), and found there are to be multiple problems with them, including the interference with the plan B.   My plan has tested very effectively.

Moreover, your Dredge plan is not even remotely good enough for real life.  Even a turn two Dark Ritual, Doomsday, + Gush for the win that turn is often not fast enough.  The Titan Dredge decks can win on turn one, and consistently win on turn two.  And you only win faster if you have a god draw or a perfect alignment. 

To that point, I win about 50% of games, not with Doomsday, but with Gushbond into Tendrils.   And alot of those kills are simply Gushing and disrupting over many turns into a critical mass Will.  In other words, the vast majority of the time this deck isn't even remotely fast enough to just beat Dredge by racing it. 

Dredge is a real deck, and continuing to use spurious sideboard plans such as the non-plan (or Race Dredge) is no-doubt a reason for its continued success. 

Agreed that most players underestimate dredge, but. . .

1. How does Dredge EVER win on turn 1? That seems nigh impossible
2. How does it consistently win on turn 2? Especially post-board when it is forced to side in anti-hate?
    Am I missing something about Dredge? It seems like a lot of their wins come no earlier than about turn 3 unless they get a god
    Draw. Is that just incorrect?

But again, you are absolutely right that players skimping on dredge hate is a very good reason why it does so well.

-Storm

Fatestitcher Dredge decks win very consistently turn 2 if they have FKZ in their list, against opponents without Wastelands.  Most Dredge lists, even slower ones, are able to "win" the game after two turns in the sense that they can Cabal Therapy you into oblivion or knock out your mana (Don, Angel of Despair, Primus) or hand (Hypnotist).