"The Unbroken" U/R Landstill: The Primer

[Diakonov]

How pimp are your Mishra's Factory magical cards?

(Alternate correction)

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Great primer, Josh.  I really like the deck, as well.

Some salient questions:

What are your thoughts on Into the Roil in place of Echoing Truth?  

How sexy are your Mishras?

I actually kinda like that. I didn't even know that was such a card haha that's pretty cool. And as far as pimp factories...I do not pimp my cardboard unfortunately, they all do the same thing pimped or not haha  

what made the tutors so fantastic?

Not ancestral recall.  The deck doesn't often need draw if it can control the pace of the game.  Usually the deck is good at locking down tactical options for opponents to within a hair of victory.  If the opponent is able to assemble the right angle of attack, though they can still win by sneaking in a BSC or w/e.  The black tutors help fill in the cracks in Landstill's defense so that they supplement the hard wall of counters (and mana disruption) with the finishing blow.

There are other games where the mana denial doesn't work and/or standstill doesn't come down and sometimes those just don't go well regardless.

Here is how I feel on all of this talk about the black tutors. The black tutors are nice don't get me wrong, but if I was going to run black I couldn't run red. I think landstill operates most efficiently with only 2 colors. That being said I guess UB landstill may be an option, but I have found burn effects, reb effects, chewers, etc all to be enough to keep me on UR landstill. The deck does not want to be broken in the least bit. Props to meandeck for trying to make landstill broken but I personally feel my builds are superior. My lists lack the Oops I win factor, but I am ok with that

And Grand Inquisitor is right, this deck doesn't always win with mana denial, nor does it always win with card advantage. Its a combination of factors. I have found the most excruciating games are the ones where a standstill or jace is never drawn. But most of the times the wall of counters and/or mana denial is enough to stall the game until I hit a card advantage spell.

[JuzamDjinn]

What do you side OUT against Dredge? And do you side in Firespout? (already side in 4xLeyline of the Void, 2xYixlid Jailer and 2xUnderground Sea)

What are your thoughts on Into the Roil in place of Echoing Truth? 

Good luck bouncing those Empty the Warrens or Bridge from Below tokens...

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

What do you side OUT against Dredge? And do you side in Firespout? (already side in 4xLeyline of the Void, 2xYixlid Jailer and 2xUnderground Sea)

What are your thoughts on Into the Roil in place of Echoing Truth? 

Good luck bouncing those Empty the Warrens or Bridge from Below tokens...

I generally sb out something like -1 island, -1 steel sabotage, -1 hurkyl's, -2 trap, -4 null rod...And the obvious 4 leyline 2 jail 2 sea come in. And sometimes either 1 chewer or 1 firespout, or maybe both. Something like that and sometimes I bring out 1 mana drain, etc. But that it pretty close it really depends on exactly what my main deck looks like as it is continually changing ever so slightly

[JuzamDjinn]

Just won a tournament (1st was 4 FoW) with the BB18 list -Steel Sabotage, -Black Lotus, +Brainstorm, +Tropical Island.

Side was:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Underground Sea
3 Energy Flux
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Firespout

Going 6-1 losing only to Belcher because of poor mulligan skills.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Just won a tournament (1st was 4 FoW) with the BB18 list -Steel Sabotage, -Black Lotus, +Brainstorm, +Tropical Island.

Side was:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Underground Sea
3 Energy Flux
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Firespout

Going 6-1 losing only to Belcher because of poor mulligan skills.

Splashing green to me seems pointless honestly only because this deck already beats workshops pretty well when played properly. And cutting black lotus seems really poor. I like getting lucky once in a while playing turn 1 Jace or standstill drain back. But anyways congrats on your victory!

[JuzamDjinn]

Splashing green to me seems pointless honestly only because this deck already beats workshops pretty well when played properly. And cutting black lotus seems really poor. I like getting lucky once in a while playing turn 1 Jace or standstill drain back. But anyways congrats on your victory!

Thanks. I don't own Black Lotus, that is the only reason I don't run it (no-proxy). In a fullpowered metagame I would do the same side except -2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Ingor Chewer.

[Stormanimagus]

Here's my most recent list. I haven't played this deck at all in years so I could be way off on some of my choices. Josh, I'd really like your feedback via PM if you are willing to give me a thorough breakdown on what you think of my list:

Storm's U/R/b Landstill

Land (21):
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Library Of Alexandria

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
4 Null Rod
2 Crucible Of Worlds

Planeswalkers (3):
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Enchantments (4):
4 Standstill

Instants (22):
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Flusterstorm
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Fire//Ice
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Underground Sea
1 Mountain
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Energy Flux
2 Dismember/Threads of Disloyalty Perhaps?

I'm still not sure about the SB. I think it is important to respect the fish match-up and I think perish is terrible as you'll never have the 3 mana you need to cast it early enough nor the black mana. They run Wastes too remember. Dismember seem like the most efficient answer you can hope for to something like Goyf. Anyone have better ideas for beating Fish? I'm open to ideas for sure.

-Storm

[Daenyth]

Ingot chewers can come in to be bigger than their guys, darkblack is great for handling hierarch/dryad arbor/revokers/kataki

Have you tried old man of the sea or sower of temptation? I feel like threads will just get eaten by qasali every time

[serracollector]

Threads of Disloyalty is good, as it answers moster critters used in t1, and its only 3 mana, there is also Pongify (don't laugh it works!), and Phantasmal Image, all are good vs Goyfs if your that worried about them.  That or you can always try Smother since u run black.  Smother answers all those fishy bastards, including confidant.

[Stormanimagus]

Threads of Disloyalty is good, as it answers moster critters used in t1, and its only 3 mana, there is also Pongify (don't laugh it works!), and Phantasmal Image, all are good vs Goyfs if your that worried about them.  That or you can always try Smother since u run black.  Smother answers all those fishy bastards, including confidant.

This deck doesn't really RUN black. It is a SB tech thing to ensure that you can recast Leyline if the game goes long OR play a Jailer with reasonable consistency. You'd want to note that Dredge almost never runs Wasteland so any Sea will be safe. Why would you run Darkblast when it can be easily Missteped followed by a wasteland on your Sea? Fish is only afraid of Darkblast if you run lots of Seas (like 3 +) and more fetches to find them (as well as mox jet and/or other black sources etc). In this deck it will be inconsistent and hard to get online. I think Fire//Ice does Darkblast's job and THEN some. What this deck really needs is an answer to is Tarmogoyf. I think Old Man is terrible in this respect because Tarmogoyf will often be too big to steal. Sower is a solid option but costs a lot, which I don't like. You simply won't have 4 mana up on a consistent basis vs. Fish. What about that 1 CMC Cumulative upkeep Control Magic card? Can't remember the name, but that might work against Goyf.

Also, Pongify is an interesting thought but I'm not a huge fan because it still gives them a 3/3 beater. I suppose you can block that with Factory though. I'll have to take that under consideration.

-Storm

[Joblin Velder]

[Stormanimagus]

Right! What do people think of the viability of this card? Other options I have missted perhaps? I mean Dismember still seems solid because it is so cheap.

[Joblin Velder]

As much as I love Mind Harness, I'd rather kill a Goyf than control one for a turn or two and then have to deal with it again.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Right! What do people think of the viability of this card? Other options I have missted perhaps? I mean Dismember still seems solid because it is so cheap.

I dont think its really as viable as you would think. If I was playing this deck, I would not want to be tying up my mana every turn to keep control. And it still dies to a pridemage. So after your tap down your mana on your turn to pay the upkeep they just sac pridemage and get their goyf back and attack on their turn. it also gets misstepped. Something like Old man of the sea is a pretty safe bet because therye not going to keep in swords. The lists that arent running null rod could play something like explosives as a mass removal.

[Stormanimagus]

Right! What do people think of the viability of this card? Other options I have missted perhaps? I mean Dismember still seems solid because it is so cheap.

I dont think its really as viable as you would think. If I was playing this deck, I would not want to be tying up my mana every turn to keep control. And it still dies to a pridemage. So after your tap down your mana on your turn to pay the upkeep they just sac pridemage and get their goyf back and attack on their turn. it also gets misstepped. Something like Old man of the sea is a pretty safe bet because therye not going to keep in swords. The lists that arent running null rod could play something like explosives as a mass removal.

Well all Standstill lists run Null Rod (at least, all GOOD ones IMO) so Explosives could have issues. But now that I think of it. You'll always side out Rod vs. Fish and Dredge (the 2 match-ups where you most want Explosives) so it could be pretty awesome actually. Good idea. I could see running 2-3 Explosives in the SB for sure. I think Old Man does not make the cut though. I just re-read it. It does NOTHING vs. Goyf. WTF are people talking about? All it does it grab 2/2's or Trygons. that doesn't help. This deck needs an answer to GOYF. Explosives I will definitely try.

-Storm

[XxtSundaybxX]

While I completely agree that null rod is imperative in this deck, All lists do not run it. There are people who tend to prefer snapcaster and tutors/tinker over the strict mana denial package. But yes, you would be boarding the null rods out so its unaffected by that.

[serracollector]

Storm you never mentioned threads of disloyalty, it is only 3 mana, and remember you have 2 basics, 5 fetches, and 2 Crucibles.  If they are wasting your lands that often, then they are not casting goyfs.

Also pongify is a double edged sword, as it can give them a token that can kill jace, BUT it is also a token that can be bounced with jace (or echoing truth, chain of vapor, waterfront bouncer etc. etc.)

Another thought, and I have tested it so some avail, is I sided 2 spell snare, and 2 hibernation.  EOT hibernate, cast Standstill with mana up to counter XX fish, has won me a game or 2.

Anyways, this deck has a million ways to make it even better.  I personally am loving it, and am also one of the ppl who runs 3 Snapcaster, and 1 Ninja of Deep Hours over the 4 Null Rod.  So take my advice with a grain of salt. 

[Archae]

Re: how to deal with Fish's creatures.
I have always found Old Man of the Sea lacking.  Ideally, you want to steal their creatures to chump goyf, but this won't work for long under a Standstill.  Also, with exalted triggers early, Old Man usually can't chump before his ability comes online.
However, given Fish's manabase, I have found Seasinger to be a much better choice.  Most Fish decks I have faced will have an island on the board by turn 1-2.  And every downside to Seasinger seems to be also a downside to Old Man, except P/T, which has generally been negligible (as mentioned above).

[Phele]

And every downside to Seasinger seems to be also a downside to Old Man, except P/T, which has generally been negligible (as mentioned above).

I wouldn't say, that the power is negligble, as this meta should be prepared to deal with X/1 creatures, so Fire/Ice, Darkblast and Co will be seen more frequently. Anaway, Seasinger ist quite nice, but don't forget that on tempo basis is has no advantage over Sower, as both deal with the creature on turn four (without acceleration) and Sower can still attack. Sure, the Wastelands of Fish make it harder to cast Sower but I would say both are mediocre against Fish.

I think the most efficient answer is the already mentioned Explosives. Paired with some Bolts you should be able to deal with every creature with a small casting cost (Snapcaster and Bolt together is a quite good way to deal with not too big Goyfs as well). Additionally Explosives gives you out against many other things you were lacking so far (Zombie tokens and Oath for example, both matchups where you don't need Null Rod either).

[swawagon]

Innocent Blood. B - Sorcery - Each player sacrifices a creature.
It wouldn't affect you.

[Daenyth]

Innocent Blood. B - Sorcery - Each player sacrifices a creature.
It wouldn't affect you.

So they sac hierarch? Better to play dismember, smother, or doom blade. But the issue is that he doesn't have reliable access to black mana

[credmond]

Chain of vapor could be run in place of steel sabotage to spot deal with big non-artifact critters like goyf. Ideally you chain it when you can follow up with a standstill  or counter or jace the following turn. Not the total solution but the change will buy a little bit in terms of being able to answer goyf.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Chain of vapor could be run in place of steel sabotage to spot deal with big non-artifact critters like goyf. Ideally you chain it when you can follow up with a standstill  or counter or jace the following turn. Not the total solution but the change will buy a little bit in terms of being able to answer goyf.

Josh used to run chain but it's not as optimal anymore. For example, you have a jace out and you want to chain goyf or another creature but you can't because they can sac a land to bounce your jace. Sure jace can bounce the creature but you don't want to waste a loyalty counter on that if you have other bounce spells.

Old man is a fine choice, some people are saying that old man can't chump block to hold you off till he's active ect, you can cast old man on turn 3. Fish decks can't kill you by turn 3. And you have counters, bolts, and jace as well. Personally I would be running a mass removal spell like explosives or something like that, it's not a narrow sideboard slot. It can be used in other various matchups, like dredge, or blue decks to kill moxes or key vault.

[credmond]

Lets not forget that explosives is also tech for fighting spheres!

Landstill does best when the meta is predictable. If dredge could be counted on to stay absent then its easy to board against fish, since all of a sudden we have the slots for it. Three threads and bolts does it nicely. The main deck fire/ice is a mvp here.

Chains gets better and sabotage gets worse as the threats get diverse.

Let's not forget that rune oath is a seriously tough matchup. Chains helps there. Explosives helps there too.

But are those enough for oath? Do we need bombardment?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I like dismember for the fish match-up. The seas come in vs fish but like storm said, this deck isn't really a 3 color deck the seas are there for mainly dredge. So really the only black card to hate fish that I would play is dismember. Bc I don't need the black mana to play it. Black mana makes it less painful but its not necessary to cast it. This deck has some issues with getting 2 blue mana at times. So threads is pretty weak with that in mind, not only it is mana intensive, but other fish players have mana denial as well. And once you play threads you need to keep a pridemage off the field. I personally would play dismember and/or waterfront bouncer if I expected fish. There are so many reasons why waterfront bouncer is a great option, it is blue, stellar vs fish, and it's great vs non-elephant oath! Bouncer is a really great option

[Commandant]

Why can't you run black again? I'm not understanding how 2-3 Underground Seas would screw up the mana base to the point where Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, and Yawgmoth's Will would not outweight any preconceived loss of mana base stability.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Why can't you run black again? I'm not understanding how 2-3 Underground Seas would screw up the mana base to the point where Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, and Yawgmoth's Will would not outweight any preconceived loss of mana base stability.

The deck runs 24 mana sources. 3 of which are island, and only 4 fetch. I like 3 island for there stability. If i wanted to add the 3rd color to the main deck that would mean I would have to up the fetch count and add seas to the main. Which would then mean I would have to cut say an island, maybe a wasteland, and maybe library. Cutting them are just bad. Yawgmoth's will is good in a broken deck that makes broken plays and does broken things, same with demonic and vampiric. This deck does not need that. If you feel thats what you really want to run, then check out meandeck landstill, not my lists. I have had success with what I play for a reason. I have been playing landstill in vintage and in legacy for years. And every time I try to make landstill more broken or add a 3rd color I just do not like how the deck runs. But if that suites your play style more then go for it!!!

[Tha Gunslinga]

Why can't you run black again? I'm not understanding how 2-3 Underground Seas would screw up the mana base to the point where Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, and Yawgmoth's Will would not outweight any preconceived loss of mana base stability.

Because you're still screwing up a solid 2-color manabase that also runs a fair amount of colorless lands.  Yawgmoth's Will is not the bomb that it is in other decks, though it can still be good, and the Tutors aren't as relevant considering you don't run Key/Vault or Tinker.

[Diakonov]

Personally, I've always loved Submerge.  Is it not a permanent enough solution for Goyf?  With enough Standstills and counters, it seems like it could work.