Reanimator Deck?

[BaronSengir]

Out of curiosity why are there no reanimator decks floating around? Are they that bad in vintage?

[credmond]

In Vintage, an animate dead strategy would revolve likely around using bazaar as a counter-proof and the most effective method of putting big dudes in the yard.

In which case there are two brutally effective variants . .  .


1) Dragon Combo uses animate dead to win on the spot without using the combat phase.

See Nick Coss's deck

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/usnat11/day1#17


2) Also, Dredge uses dread return and creatures that pop out of the graveyard for free and bridge from below in its strategy.

See Mark Hornung's deck in the url above.


Any other re-animator style deck would have to outperform these decks or be better at handling the size-able amount of graveyard hate people have dedicated in their sideboards, due to Dredge being such a monster of a deck.

[Smmenen]

Out of curiosity why are there no reanimator decks floating around? Are they that bad in vintage?

Dredge IS Reanimator.   Dread Return is a cheaper spell, and your Dread Return targets win faster. 

[policehq]

Out of curiosity why are there no reanimator decks floating around? Are they that bad in vintage?

Dredge IS Reanimator.   Dread Return is a cheaper spell, and your Dread Return targets win faster. 

Oh good grief. You know what he means. I know what you mean, too, but clearly what he's looking for is something like what Matt Elias played in the TMD Online Invitational.

OP, view the thread here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43311.0

Personally, I'd like to see Careful Study and Putrid Imp combined with Chancellors, but I know I'm just a dreamer. In particular, the white Chancellor would prevent Mental Misstep from countering that crucial Entomb, Imp, Study, or Reanimate on turn 1. Jin-Gitaxias is a victory engine on his own because he fuels future reanimations while preventing opponent's answers.

[DubDub]

I actually played Reanimator at TMD Open 15.  Here is approximately the list I used, modified after learning some from the event:

3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Misdirection

4 Reanimate
1 Animate Dead
3 Shallow Grave

4x Jin-Gitaxias
1 Iona
2 It that Betrays
1 Emrakul

1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 U. Sea
1 Island
7 Blue Fetches
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

I think I had Tinker, Sphinx of the Steel Wind and Yawgmoth's Will in there for the event, but I feel those slots are better used with the Mindbreak Traps.

Basically, the idea was to be the most consistent Jin-Gitaxias deck possible, and then to ride him to victory.  Fight with basically maxed out free countermagic to get him into play and to survive until one draw-seven trigger, then reload with the trigger and go from there.

Without a plan as consistent as Dredge Bazaar underwhelmed me.  Uncounterability is nice, but this deck doesn't lack for countermagic.  I'd likely reconsider Careful Study/Entomb/Frantic Search for the yard filling instead of Bazaar if I were to look at this deck again.

Also, if you want Exhume instead of Shallow Grave I think you want a Snapcaster package in here too.  Reanimate-Snapcaster->Flashback-Exhume.  Or Exhume-Snapcaster->Flashback Reanimate.    Snapcaster helps against Jace and particularly Liliana, but no one is playing her.  Shallow Grave is terrible with Snapcasters I think.  I played it because it's really powerful with Jin.  You can endstep flash in Jin, make them discard, and with the delayed trigger he will survive to attack and draw you seven.  Amazing.  With all the countermagic around I wanted at least the possibility of a serious endstep threat to clear the way for untap->Reanimate.

I didn't even consider Dragon; no joke, it's probably the way to go.

[BaronSengir]

Thanks all. Those lists helped. I'm going to try out my Landstill deck first, but if it doesn't go well I may consider a Reanimator deck since I already have a Legacy version.

[BaronSengir]

I actually played Reanimator at TMD Open 15.  Here is approximately the list I used, modified after learning some from the event:

3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Misdirection

4 Reanimate
1 Animate Dead
3 Shallow Grave

4x Jin-Gitaxias
1 Iona
2 It that Betrays
1 Emrakul

1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 U. Sea
1 Island
7 Blue Fetches
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

I think I had Tinker, Sphinx of the Steel Wind and Yawgmoth's Will in there for the event, but I feel those slots are better used with the Mindbreak Traps.

Basically, the idea was to be the most consistent Jin-Gitaxias deck possible, and then to ride him to victory.  Fight with basically maxed out free countermagic to get him into play and to survive until one draw-seven trigger, then reload with the trigger and go from there.

Without a plan as consistent as Dredge Bazaar underwhelmed me.  Uncounterability is nice, but this deck doesn't lack for countermagic.  I'd likely reconsider Careful Study/Entomb/Frantic Search for the yard filling instead of Bazaar if I were to look at this deck again.

Also, if you want Exhume instead of Shallow Grave I think you want a Snapcaster package in here too.  Reanimate-Snapcaster->Flashback-Exhume.  Or Exhume-Snapcaster->Flashback Reanimate.    Snapcaster helps against Jace and particularly Liliana, but no one is playing her.  Shallow Grave is terrible with Snapcasters I think.  I played it because it's really powerful with Jin.  You can endstep flash in Jin, make them discard, and with the delayed trigger he will survive to attack and draw you seven.  Amazing.  With all the countermagic around I wanted at least the possibility of a serious endstep threat to clear the way for untap->Reanimate.

I didn't even consider Dragon; no joke, it's probably the way to go.

How did you get Emrakul in since he doesn't sit in the graveyard?

[Troy_Costisick]

How did you get Emrakul in since he doesn't sit in the graveyard?

You respond to the trigger with Shallow Grave.

[DubDub]

How did you get Emrakul in since he doesn't sit in the graveyard?

You respond to the trigger with Shallow Grave.

Got it in one.

He can also be a useful safety valve if there's danger of decking yourself with Jin (a REALLY excellent problem to have, by the way).

[BaronSengir]

Ok so I really want to try to build a reanimator deck for my monthly vintage since I already have a legacy Reanimator deck, but I already need to proxy 3 of the Moxes and I don't have the Bazaars and really rather not proxy them; plus since you said they were kind of underwhelming using Entomb may be a better option?

[Troy_Costisick]

Ok so I really want to try to build a reanimator deck for my monthly vintage since I already have a legacy Reanimator deck, but I already need to proxy 3 of the Moxes and I don't have the Bazaars and really rather not proxy them; plus since you said they were kind of underwhelming using Entomb may be a better option?

With Entomb you might be able to cut Gin down to one and run Snapcasters to recast Entomb in case you need to.

[BaronSengir]

Ok so I really want to try to build a reanimator deck for my monthly vintage since I already have a legacy Reanimator deck, but I already need to proxy 3 of the Moxes and I don't have the Bazaars and really rather not proxy them; plus since you said they were kind of underwhelming using Entomb may be a better option?

With Entomb you might be able to cut Gin down to one and run Snapcasters to recast Entomb in case you need to.

For sure. I definitely want to run some Snapcasters since I have them laying around.

[DubDub]

I would be very interested to see how an Entomb+Snapcaster build works for you.  I would definitely consider it unless and until experience proves otherwise.  You could even do crazy things like Entomb ACall or Time Walk just to Snap them back.  (Hey, if it wins you games why not?)

I was wary of including Entomb because I didn't want to fight over Entomb with my free countermagic, I wanted to nullify my opponent's removal.  You might say, well, you have to fight over the Reanimate just the same....  Which is true, but if your Reanimate gets countered more cards in your deck are live (the remaining reanimation spells), whereas with Entomb getting countered you need another gravefiller first before the Reanimation spells do anything.  Bazaar is also I think theoretically better against gravehate since it allows you to sculpt your hand as well.  I would look to add back in some of the filtering you lose without Bazaar through spells like Careful Study, Frantic Search or Forbidden Alchemy.

Good luck, let us know how it goes for you!

[BaronSengir]

Quick question. People keep saying that the whole Shallow Grave + Emrakul combo in Legacy is a horrible idea that rarely works; wasn't on this forum. Personally I think they are being a little ridiculous in saying its a horrible idea that doesn't work, but I'm wondering how it works out in Vintage? Is it worth main boarding him and the shallow graves?

[DubDub]

Eh, it worked out okay for me.  You still have to cast both (or activate, if it's Bazaar) on the same turn, but the Moxen help get the extra  needed in Vintage.  So this can happen turn two instead of turn three at the earliest (which would be the case in Legacy).

Emrakul is best when you're blowing up six permanents, not just one or two anyway.  I think you're slightly better off planning on a long game in Vintage whereas Legacy Reanimator wants something in play on turn two.

[ed0]

the issue with any kind of "traditional reanimator" (you cast spells to drop something big in the yard from your library/hand and cast spells to get something big out of the yard onto the battlefield) in vintage is that it's easily disrupted both by counters and graveyard hate.
the Shallow Grave + Emrakul combo has an extremely small window to resolve and interrupting any part of it is devastating - and it's possibly not even winning you the game on the spot (like dragon combo does).

so playing an emrakul as a one-of if you need to clear the board and play shallow graves anyway is probably fine, but i wouldn't built a deck around it.

[BaronSengir]

What are the dragon combos used in vintage?

[ed0]

there is only one playable, as far as i know (already mentioned in this thread):
Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead/Necromancy + Worldgorger Dragon
you need either bazaar on the field or read the runes in your hand + one of the reanimation enchants + worldgorger dragon in your grave

once you cast one of the enchants on worldgorger an infinite loop starts phasing all your permanents in and out. (worldgorger etb -> all permanents are exiled, including the enchant reanimating worldgorger -> worldgorger goes back to the gy -> everything comes back untapped -> you target worldgorger again with the enchant, tap for mana, activate bazaars or play instants (read the runes) -> worldgorger etb -> ....)
you win the game by targeting Oona, Queen of the Fae with the reanimate enchant, breaking the loop, and using your unlimited mana to activate her for more than whatever the number of cards is your opponent has in his deck.

you can take a look at a match here: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD2472B40758D48F5 courtesy of Meddling Mike

the deck usually comes with a transformational sideboard that changes it into a decent graveyard independent tinker/timevault deck to counter the graveyard hate in g2/g3.

[AmbivalentDuck]

there is only one playable, as far as i know (already mentioned in this thread):
Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead/Necromancy + Worldgorger Dragon
you need either bazaar on the field or read the runes in your hand + one of the reanimation enchants + worldgorger dragon in your grave

You can also reanimate Dragon without a wincon to force the game into a draw.  Ie. Your opponent will be swinging with BSC next turn and you can't win; better to draw than lose.

[Worldslayer]

There is a reanimator/oath hybrid Matt Elias talked about some time ago and which I played against at the last BBGD. It seems fine as far as nondragon reanimator goes, as you have an innate power play vs. Both shops and graveyard hate starting g1 courtesy of the Oath of Druids, but still have to ability to just go do something now vs. The blue and black decks which usually just kill Oath in the 1-2 turn window provided even after esolving the namesake enchantment. If you were interested in vintage reanimator, those lists are probably where i'd start rather than the usual U/B draw-discard-reanimate-pray options which don't bring anything to the table another deck doesn't, but still suffer all said other decks' same weaknesses.