How would you play this hand?

[Onslaught]

G3 vs. Landstill that you know runs 2 Misdirection, 2 Misstep, and 2 Mindbreak Trap. There are also the standard REBs, Drains, and FOWs. You are going first with a hand of:

Ancestral, Demonic, Jet, Island, Trop, Gush, Tinker

What's your opening play? Outside of the normal Gush control stuff, you have Clique and ETW in your deck.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I play land, mox, dt for lotus, lotus, tinker for BSC - pray he doesn't have the trap or fow or turn 1 sabotage - and win on turn 2.  If he does have FoW, he goes down to 5 cards and gives you a shot to try ancestral/gush next turn.

Now, in actuality, the landstill player is holding Misd, Fow, mindbreak, standstill, ancestral, lotus, volcanic, and is about to topdeck reb....so you're hosed no matter what you do.

[credmond]

You should count on the landstill player having at least pitch counter ability. Going all-in on turn 1 is risky, especially if it means playing 3 spells and enabling trap

With that in mind . . .

1) island, jet, demonic for force of will (to protect turn 2 tinker)

or

2) island, jet, demonic for fastbond (to play fastbond the following turn)

are both lines of play that set you up for some baiting type moves the following turn.

It's best to screw with the landstill player at the end of his turn so if he misd's ancestral or some other shenanigans he often has to discard some of his card advantage.

[boggyb]

Another option is turn 1 island, pass, and upkeep ancestral. If you draw Yawg or Lotus, then turn 2 jet, trop, DT for the missing piece, gush, yawg, dt, fastbond, gush, recall again etc. If you don't draw either of those, then you have more outs for turn 2 tinker. And if he manages to counter it or ancestral, you have a turn 3 gush waiting for you.

[bluemage55]

Turn 1: Island, Jet, DT->Fastbond
Turn 2: Does opponent have Drain mana up? If so, re-evaluate and probably pass the turn. If not, Trop, Fastbond, with the intent of answering opponents responses with Gush.

Assuming opponent responds to Gush, answer with Ancestral. We're committing pretty hard by casting Gush, but with 14 counters in their deck and no Drain mana, there's a reasonable chance we resolve Ancestral (also helps that Fastbond draws Missteps and Gush draws REBs), and hopefully see our first FoW, Misstep, or Misd after drawing through 10 cards.  The idea will be to protect Fastbond, replay the lands, and immediately Tinker on turn 2.

If for some reason the opponent allows Gush to resolve unmolested, re-evaluate after seeing the cards, as it is quite possible that they are holding back a counter, but attempt to protect Fastbond if possible (and if they directly or indirectly recounter Fastbond, respond with Ancestral).

[evouga]

My plan is the following:

My turn 1: Land, Mox, Tutor for Mox Sapphire, Mox Sapphire, Go.
Some time during opponent's turn: Ancestral
My turn 2: Land, Gush, Tinker.

I have no protection, but my chances of capitalizing on my explosive hand will only get worse if I allow the game to go long. The above line of play, although a turn slower than TheWhiteDragon's, maximizes my chances of either drawing countermagic or baiting the opponent's, while discouraging shenanigans on his turn by representing countermagic of my own, and still allowing me to play turn 2 Tinker.

If you tutor for Fastbond and it gets countered, you cannot play Tinker turn 2 unless Ancestral/Gush resolve and find FoW (and the opponent doesn't have Mindbreak Trap), Black Lotus, or multiple pieces of artifact mana. The above line, by contrast, is resilient against one, and possibly two pieces of opposing countermagic (depending on how tempted the opponent is to counter Gush.)

The greatest dangers to waiting a turn over WhiteDragon's immediate Tinker are 1) Misdirection on Ancestral, 2) a red source, activating REB, and 3) Landstill (less likely if your U credibly represents Spell Pierce.) You didn't mention Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm so I'm assuming a single blue source is not a concern.

[ELD]

Island, Ancestral.  Not close.  Opens up lots of options, and you may draw acceleration and win now.  I'd like to hear some justification on these other lines of play.  They sound like playing in a vacuum, or not playing in tournaments at all.  I get that some players are risk averse, and won't run out Ancestral vs a deck that has access to Misdirection.  Magic is about weighing risks well, not avoiding them at all costs. 

I see no reason to wait until an opponents turn to cast Ancestral?  That's strictly suboptimal.  You main phase that stuff!  Random blow out scenario - they have Misdirection (you still have a sick hand, and they'll draw bad landstill cards).  Bad case, they counter it and your hand is still gas.  Best case, you draw into the nuts and win on the spot.  Normally? - You just draw 3 cards, drop Jet, and win the next turn or the turn after. 

My plan is the following:

My turn 1: Land, Mox, Tutor for Mox Sapphire, Mox Sapphire, Go.
Some time during opponent's turn: Ancestral
My turn 2: Land, Gush, Tinker.

Why completely waste DT on Sapphire?  Why lose the storm count, and the possible autowin, by not mainphasing Ancestral?  Why Gush and possibly draw your Robot before Tinkering? 

I play land, mox, dt for lotus, lotus, tinker for BSC - pray he doesn't have the trap or fow or turn 1 sabotage - and win on turn 2.  If he does have FoW, he goes down to 5 cards and gives you a shot to try ancestral/gush next turn.

Now, in actuality, the landstill player is holding Misd, Fow, mindbreak, standstill, ancestral, lotus, volcanic, and is about to topdeck reb....so you're hosed no matter what you do.

This line of play is acceptable if your opponent is way better than you, and you know you are not competent to play your deck.  That's important, as many people fit that bill.   If they did stuff like this more, they won't improve as a player, but they'll win more games than trying to storm out and miscounting their mana.  (I would consider this if I was just trying to end as quickly as possible, and was indifferent to victory or defeat.)

[honestabe]

What ELD said.  I like to be agressive with my Ancestrals and MAKE him have the answer.  Even if he does; your hand is still Trop, Jet, Demonic, Gush, Tinker, plus the fresh card you get on your turn, AND your opponent is out a counter.  Assuming Ancestral gets countered, on your next turn, I probably just go land, mox, tinker to play around Mindbreak Trap, unless you rip a Gush, in which case, I probably DT for fastbond and double Gush

[Smmenen]

Island, Ancestral.  Not close. 

That seems terrible to me.  There are like 8+ cards that counter that on turn one, and a few that are just blows outs because of it.  

I would Demonic Tutor, possibly for Empty the Warrens, and just pass the turn, if you have ETW in your deck.  

My plan:
 
T1: Island, Mox, DT

T2: Tropical Island

T3: Gush to get another land drop or respond to Wasteland with Gush.

Then, depending on what I've drawn at that point I would play other spells.  

[Meddling Mike]

Island, Ancestral.  Not close. 

That seems terrible to me.  There are like 8+ cards that counter that on turn one, and a few that are just blows outs because of it.  

I would Demonic Tutor, possibly for Empty the Warrens, and just pass the turn, if you have ETW in your deck.  

My plan:
 
T1: Island, Mox, DT

T2: Tropical Island

T3: Gush to get another land drop or respond to Wasteland with Gush.

Then, depending on what I've drawn at that point I would play other spells.  

Is that really so bad as a bait spell there? It seems like there's no lack of gas in that hand. If he has to blow his FoW on Ancestral you can still Tinker next turn. If he's Rich Shay and has double counter in opening hand you still have options with DT and Gush.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Island, Ancestral.  Not close. 

That seems terrible to me.  There are like 8+ cards that counter that on turn one, and a few that are just blows outs because of it.  

I would Demonic Tutor, possibly for Empty the Warrens, and just pass the turn, if you have ETW in your deck.  

My plan:
 
T1: Island, Mox, DT

T2: Tropical Island

T3: Gush to get another land drop or respond to Wasteland with Gush.

Then, depending on what I've drawn at that point I would play other spells.  

I completely agree with Steve

[chrispikula]

Definitely agree your play has to be Demonic Tutor for something. 

I feel like I lose all the time to the people who just DT for Lotus and cast Tinker. 

[XxtSundaybxX]

Im fine with ancestral getting countered in any way other than misdirection. That's just a blowout. I'm not sure how this "worst case" scenario is accepted. You lose a bomb and your opponent is now + 1 more than he was before you casted it, and they will likely draw atleast 1 more counter to replace the misdirection. Ancestral getting forced is fine because you have so much gas. I would not play into trap either. You want to limit they're options on using theyre counter spells since they have so many. This is rather easy as you just play around trap and misstep(most lists only run 0-2 so it may not even be necessary) and they now have just as many counters as you do.

I think the best time to cast ancestral vs landstill is let them use they're misdirection to protect theyre bomb, and then cast ancestral in response to that. They're going to use misdirection over force of will if they have both because it's more narrow. It's hard to be aggressive with ancestral unless you can win very shortly after in the case that they do have the misdirection.

As far as that line of play goes I think the DT for Force of will is best. It also gives you protection in your hand if they go for broke on they're turn. Tutoring for fastbond with a single gush is kind of weak in my opinion. If you tutor for Fow, you have protection for tinker on turn 2, forcing themto have double counter. And if they do this could very well open up your opportunity to case/resolve ancestral. An you still have a gush as well as a draw from your turn.

[Onslaught]

For reference, I ended up playing Island, Jet, DT for Fastbond, pass. His first turn was Sapphire, Strip Mine the Island, pass. My turn 2 play after that was just Trop, Fastbond, pass. He played a Standstill the turn after, then Wasted my Trop, and by the time I was even remotely equipped to attempt Ancestral there was basically a 0% chance of it resolving.

I was inches away from using the DT for FOW instead, as many have suggested. I think that may have been the better play than grabbing Fastbond, especially without the hindsight of T1 Strip Mine. If he didn't have the Strip Mine, the aforementioned "T1: Island, Jet, DT for FOW, pass, T2: Trop, Tinker, FOW their counter" line of play is really good. If they have double counters, you are probably going to resolve Ancestral on turn 3 and be way ahead. Even with the Strip Mine, I could at least attempt a turn 2 Ancestral and hope he doesn't have two ways to counter it.

The DT for ETW suggestion is extremely interesting to me. Obviously it would have sucked in this case because of the Strip Mine and ensuing mana drought, but it has a lot of merit in other situations. For the suggestion of opening with Island into Ancestral, I am way too risk averse to try something like that. If I wanted to go for gold first turn, it would def be DT for Lotus and hail mary Tinker. In that scenario when they Mindbreak Trap or FOW it, you at least still have 4 cards to their 6 (on your turn 2) with a chance at resolving Ancestral to catch up.

[TheWhiteDragon]

For the suggestion of opening with Island into Ancestral, I am way too risk averse to try something like that. If I wanted to go for gold first turn, it would def be DT for Lotus and hail mary Tinker. In that scenario when they Mindbreak Trap or FOW it, you at least still have 4 cards to their 6 (on your turn 2) with a chance at resolving Ancestral to catch up.

This.  Also, your turn 1 dig for safe win allows him to 1) draw another card, maybe a counter, 2) drop a volcanic enabling REB, spell pierce, flusterstorm, 3) dropping lotus, landstill, etc.

I go all in on turn 1 because he, on turn 0, has only 6 answers with 4 of them costing 2 cards.  If he does trap/FoW you, then you have 4 cards to his 6 (2 being great card draw that you can use both of on turn 2).  If he doesn't FoW/trap, he has one draw to pray for sabotage (or 2 mana and hurkyll's/etruth)  I actually think this "all in" on turn 1 is the LEAST risky.  Letting him get a land drop opens up 8+ counters for him, and going with ancestral opens up 2 more backbreaking counters (misD) where you might also just draw land, land, crap as opposed to forcing your opponent into a "topdeck your miracle or GG" scenario.

[ELD]

For reference, I ended up playing Island, Jet, DT for Fastbond, pass. His first turn was Sapphire, Strip Mine the Island, pass. My turn 2 play after that was just Trop, Fastbond, pass. He played a Standstill the turn after, then Wasted my Trop, and by the time I was even remotely equipped to attempt Ancestral there was basically a 0% chance of it resolving.

I was inches away from using the DT for FOW instead, as many have suggested. I think that may have been the better play than grabbing Fastbond, especially without the hindsight of T1 Strip Mine. If he didn't have the Strip Mine, the aforementioned "T1: Island, Jet, DT for FOW, pass, T2: Trop, Tinker, FOW their counter" line of play is really good. If they have double counters, you are probably going to resolve Ancestral on turn 3 and be way ahead. Even with the Strip Mine, I could at least attempt a turn 2 Ancestral and hope he doesn't have two ways to counter it.

The DT for ETW suggestion is extremely interesting to me. Obviously it would have sucked in this case because of the Strip Mine and ensuing mana drought, but it has a lot of merit in other situations. For the suggestion of opening with Island into Ancestral, I am way too risk averse to try something like that. If I wanted to go for gold first turn, it would def be DT for Lotus and hail mary Tinker. In that scenario when they Mindbreak Trap or FOW it, you at least still have 4 cards to their 6 (on your turn 2) with a chance at resolving Ancestral to catch up.

That's not shocking.  DT on the first turn really looks like a goldfishing train of thought than tournament play.  The thing that people seem to be missing is which spell you want to resolve.  Using DT and Tinker first, and thinking it's OK, because you still have Ancestral is backwards.  Ancestral is amazing because it draws your  your sick spells.  This hand, you had the sick spells already.  After losing DT and Tinker, you are basically all in on resolving Yawgmoth's Will.  Playing card draw before Tutors is a general rule.  You see what you draw, and that impacts what you tutor for.  If you have valid plays that you can make before you tutor, each extra draw step gives you a better plan for your tutor as well. 

Let's look how my suggestion plays out.  You Ancestral turn 1.  They counter it, you drop Mox Jet and Pass.  They Strip your Island.  Turn 2, depending on what you draw, you can drop Tropical and DT for Lotus for the Tinker plan.  This forces them to try and stop you, as opposed to just letting yourself get locked right out of the game and doing nothing the whole time. 

[brokenbacon]

For reference, I ended up playing Island, Jet, DT for Fastbond, pass. His first turn was Sapphire, Strip Mine the Island, pass. My turn 2 play after that was just Trop, Fastbond, pass. He played a Standstill the turn after, then Wasted my Trop, and by the time I was even remotely equipped to attempt Ancestral there was basically a 0% chance of it resolving.

I was inches away from using the DT for FOW instead, as many have suggested. I think that may have been the better play than grabbing Fastbond, especially without the hindsight of T1 Strip Mine. If he didn't have the Strip Mine, the aforementioned "T1: Island, Jet, DT for FOW, pass, T2: Trop, Tinker, FOW their counter" line of play is really good. If they have double counters, you are probably going to resolve Ancestral on turn 3 and be way ahead. Even with the Strip Mine, I could at least attempt a turn 2 Ancestral and hope he doesn't have two ways to counter it.

The DT for ETW suggestion is extremely interesting to me. Obviously it would have sucked in this case because of the Strip Mine and ensuing mana drought, but it has a lot of merit in other situations. For the suggestion of opening with Island into Ancestral, I am way too risk averse to try something like that. If I wanted to go for gold first turn, it would def be DT for Lotus and hail mary Tinker. In that scenario when they Mindbreak Trap or FOW it, you at least still have 4 cards to their 6 (on your turn 2) with a chance at resolving Ancestral to catch up.

That's not shocking.  DT on the first turn really looks like a goldfishing train of thought than tournament play.  The thing that people seem to be missing is which spell you want to resolve.  Using DT and Tinker first, and thinking it's OK, because you still have Ancestral is backwards.  Ancestral is amazing because it draws your  your sick spells.  This hand, you had the sick spells already.  After losing DT and Tinker, you are basically all in on resolving Yawgmoth's Will.  Playing card draw before Tutors is a general rule.  You see what you draw, and that impacts what you tutor for.  If you have valid plays that you can make before you tutor, each extra draw step gives you a better plan for your tutor as well. 

Let's look how my suggestion plays out.  You Ancestral turn 1.  They counter it, you drop Mox Jet and Pass.  They Strip your Island.  Turn 2, depending on what you draw, you can drop Tropical and DT for Lotus for the Tinker plan.  This forces them to try and stop you, as opposed to just letting yourself get locked right out of the game and doing nothing the whole time. 

BAM. THIS RIGHT HERE.

[Onslaught]

Let's look how my suggestion plays out.  You Ancestral turn 1.  They counter it, you drop Mox Jet and Pass.

Misdirection and Misstep change the math though. Against any other deck? Perfectly reasonable line of play, because the chances of most decks countering two of your spells by your second turn is somewhat lower. Against Landstill? They have 4 non-FOW ways to stop that turn one Ancestral, (2 of which basically make you lose the game automatically on the spot), and by the time the turn comes back to you they still have 6 free counters to stop the DT for Lotus into Tinker play, as well as the possibility of a one mana REB or Sapphire to put Drain online.

There's no way I'd play a first turn Ancestral in this scenario, because the better "just go for it!" play feels like DT for Lotus to Tinker. They "only" have six free ways to stop that instead of 8, and you don't risk getting completely blown out by Misdirection. Thinking about this over the last few days though, in a repeat situation my play would be DT for FOW.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Plus on top of all the counter magic, if tinker resolves landstill (my lists anyway) run 3-5 bounce spells costing 2 mana or less. Playing recall right off the bat is poor

[meadbert]

I agree with ELD here.  Misdirection is a threat, but it is a threat that grows as the game gets older.   There is a 20% chance that your opponent is sitting on MisD on turn 1, but wait a few turns and that probability increases dramatically.  Landstill runs more countermagic and develops its permanent mana better so the later you wait the more they are likely they are to draw into Misdirection, have mana for REB/Drain or have played a Standstill.

Gush decks are about tempo.  You want to do something now.  Delaying vs Landstill is in general a bad idea.  You are are the beatdown, not them.

[Smmenen]

I agree that proper role assignment in the Landstill matchup is usually beatdown, but that doesn't entail playing Ancestral here. 

I would definitely play turn one Demonic Tutor here. However, I wouldn't get either Fastbond or Black Lotus. 

As I indicated, I would DT on turn one, and then very carefully canvass all of my options.  Ultimately, I would probably DT for something like Flusterstorm to protect both Ancestral and Tinker in the same turn.   

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

What he ^ said....I was thinking turn 1 DT for force but flusterstorm as Steve said is an excellent idea aswell

[meadbert]

I agree that proper role assignment in the Landstill matchup is usually beatdown, but that doesn't entail playing Ancestral here. 

I would definitely play turn one Demonic Tutor here. However, I wouldn't get either Fastbond or Black Lotus. 

As I indicated, I would DT on turn one, and then very carefully canvass all of my options.  Ultimately, I would probably DT for something like Flusterstorm to protect both Ancestral and Tinker in the same turn.   

Flusterstorm is an interesting idea.
The problem I see with this line of play is to play Tinker, Recall and Flusterstorm in the same turn you need 5 mana, but you are sitting on 2 (3 if you count Gush) so it is likely to be several turns before you get to 5 mana at all and even later against a deck like Landstill that actually runs mana denial.  In addition, Force of Will, Mental Misstep, Misdirection and Mindbreak Trap cost no mana.  Trap trumps your plan and even if they planned on using some combination of the other mentioned counters or even REB, Landstill is reasonably likely to to have the mana to pay through your Flusterstorm.

[Lemnear]

T1: Land, mox, Demonic for Fastbond

T2: Trop, Anc, wait for Hardcounter because you blank Piece and Flusterstorm, then Fastbond, Gush, replay Lands and Tinker BSC

This Way your Opponent needs 3 Counter over 3 turns (if he Counters Bond and forces T3 tinker). IMO this Way you get the most pressure. Anc into the Blue sky then Tinker is bullshit. My line of play turn 2 tinkers too but i have Fastbond As a Must-counter in addition

[TheWhiteDragon]

Let's look how my suggestion plays out.  You Ancestral turn 1.  They counter it, you drop Mox Jet and Pass.

Misdirection and Misstep change the math though. Against any other deck? Perfectly reasonable line of play, because the chances of most decks countering two of your spells by your second turn is somewhat lower. Against Landstill? They have 4 non-FOW ways to stop that turn one Ancestral, (2 of which basically make you lose the game automatically on the spot), and by the time the turn comes back to you they still have 6 free counters to stop the DT for Lotus into Tinker play, as well as the possibility of a one mana REB or Sapphire to put Drain online.

There's no way I'd play a first turn Ancestral in this scenario, because the better "just go for it!" play feels like DT for Lotus to Tinker. They "only" have six free ways to stop that instead of 8, and you don't risk getting completely blown out by Misdirection. Thinking about this over the last few days though, in a repeat situation my play would be DT for FOW.

BAM!  THIS RIGHT HERE!

You go turn 1 ancestral, he MISDIRECTS it - drawing his sapphire.  He then drops sapphire on his turn to your jet and has spell pierce for your tinker.  Even if he just Misteps it, he's got 7 cards next turn and his potential FoW to stop the tinker.  If he uses FoW on your tinker, you have plenty of gas to get back in it, but he has to pitch two cards - possibly his misd or misstep for his FoW, making your ancestral a safer play next turn.

[saspook]

I cast Demonic Tutor here so that I am using all of my mana sources, which Island -> Recall doesn't do well.

[BetaFoil86]

I personally would go Island jet demonic for either flusterstorm(most likely) or fastbond. On the second turn i would likely cast ancestral with flusterstorm backup (assuming he has less than 2 mana or pass and do it when i can protect it)