Grafdigger's Cage-Dredge Haters Unite...

[Godder]

There are a lot of posts in here that add little to nothing to the thread. Either they stop, or the thread gets locked.

[Mr. Type 4]

Teacher says every time they print a card that weakens Dredge an angel gets its wings. 

I'm not sure why anyone would be sad about this card, all it does is give people more genuine answers to the most broken strategies in the game (Yawg Will, Tinker, Dredge).  It's a bit sad for Oath because their big broken opening is land+mox=Oath and then they have to pass the turn giving people a opening to play this card. 

Big blue decks have already started diversifying their win conditions, so it wont be too much different from any other "speed bump" cards they already have to play through.  They already main deck Hurkyl's Recall so it's not like they don't have an answer.

This card should open up some new design space in Vintage which is what i hope will happen with every new set.  This card is a gift.

[mikekilljoy]

I'm not sure why anyone would be sad about this card, all it does is give people more genuine answers to the most broken strategies in the game (Yawg Will, Tinker, Dredge).  It's a bit sad for Oath because their big broken opening is land+mox=Oath and then they have to pass the turn giving people a opening to play this card. 

Big blue decks have already started diversifying their win conditions, so it wont be too much different from any other "speed bump" cards they already have to play through.  They already main deck Hurkyl's Recall so it's not like they don't have an answer.

This card should open up some new design space in Vintage which is what i hope will happen with every new set.  This card is a gift.

Finally, a rational thoight on the subject. If this card allows any sort of innovation in the format, then it's an all around win. And I think this card can and will do that.

[Metman]

I'd like to get a conversation going on what exactly this card does to the format's win conditions and support cards.  Now obviously by itself Grafdigger's Cage shuts down large creatures coming in to play from Oath in addition to Tinkerbots.  This card also shuts down Yawgmoth's Will and Dredge decks and to a lesser extent Goblin Welder decks.  What I'm interested in is the direction that decks will take to combat Grafdigger's Cage, but I think that depends on whether Cage is maindecked in enough decks to warrant a significant shift in the meta game. 

Do UB decks switch back to Vault/Key as its primary win condition?
I think this is a distinct possibility.  I see Grafdigger's Cage replacing Null Rod in the Shop and Fish decks that were running them.  On a somewhat related note I could see Shop decks being open to playing Metalworker based builds again and finding room for Grafdigger's Cage. 

Do UB decks now default to starting with 4 FoW and 4 Mental Misstep, continue running Blightsteel Colossus, and work to fight Grafdigger's Cage? 
My first testing will be done this weekend.  I had already accepted Mental Misstep as a 3-4 of in my control decks because it proves so effective at battling other UB decks in addition to shutting down decks like Dark Times.  If Shop decks adopt Grafdigger's Cage I see Mental Misstep as being no longer situational.  The only drawback I ever saw in Mental Misstep is that it didn't have game against Shops.

Do UB decks switch to doing their best to ignore Grafdigger's Cage?
I'm on the fence about this question.  I think time will tell only after the meta game shifts and settles.  I can foresee UB decks playing castable Tinker targets.  Maybe Sundering Titan, Myr Battlesphere, or Platinum Angel make their way back into decks for when control wants to ignore Grafdigger's Cage and still wants to play Tinker.  I think this is most likely in UB decks that have adopted Vault/Key. 

Does Dredge now have to slow itself slightly by maindecking things like Nature's Claim or Ingot Chewer or the likes?
If Grafdigger's Cage catches fire and is maindecked by decks not playing Tinker or Oath of Druids I see Dredge suffering the most.  I think that Mental Misstep gets played more if this is the case, and my testing has proven that UB decks that maindeck one piece of grave hate and four Mental Missteps will snag a not insignificant percentage of game 1s from Dredge. 

Do Oath decks survive?
I think they do though I'm not sure in which incarnation.  I like the idea of playing a single Laboratory Maniac and ignoring the Grafdigger's Cage.  In fact, I will be brewing up some Oath lists that do just this.  Maybe Oath maindecks more artifact destruction, ignores Grafdigger's Cage, and continues playing dinosaurs.  I can also see them going back to the Vault/Key package. 

Do Shop decks make themselves susceptible to Mental Misstep and adopt Grafdigger's Cage as maindeck UB and Oath hate? 
I can see Shops dropping a lock piece, specifically Null Rod.  I don't blame them; I think Grafdigger's Cage does much more for less without a symmetrical effect.

What are some of your thoughts on how Grafdigger's Cage affects the make up of the decks we play?  I don't think any archetype gets nerfed by the printing of Grafdigger's Cage, each is fully capable of being a contender even if this card is maindecked by 30-50% of the meta game. 

[dicemanx]

If we are to believe that Dredge has contributed to format diversity by reducing the number of SB slots in the most powerful archetypes, then the Cage might contribute even further to diversity by reducing the number of maindeck slots which now will have to be devoted to fighting Cage. Powerful archetypes with their overpowered win conditions such as Tinker and YWill will never go away anyways, and the fringe which is not affected by Cage will rise to even greater prominence.

There are really only two scenarios that I think might result in making things worse for vintage:

1) Dredge is killed off because it is too difficult to fight so many maindeck Cages, and Shops shortly follow because they have a really tough time competing with many of the fringe aggro/aggro-control decks using hatebears or outdrawing/outracing with cards such as SFM. This leaves vintage with control-combo duking it out with midrange aggro-control, control-combo being strengthened with the reduction in Dredge and Shops.

2) People get turned off by the more random nature of the games, which will reduce down to being able to draw solutions or solutions to solutions. Cage utterly decimates entire strategies or win conditions, and if an archetype relies on those strategies or win conditions, it needs to be able to resolve removal past the opposing disruption suite. We might see many more Misstep battles, as the Cage wielding decks will probably have their own missteps even if they're not base U.


I don't think either scenario will play out as stated, and I think Cage will instead have a positive effect on the format.

[Troy_Costisick]

Do UB decks switch back to Vault/Key as its primary win condition?
I think this is a distinct possibility.  I see Grafdigger's Cage replacing Null Rod in the Shop and Fish decks that were running them.  On a somewhat related note I could see Shop decks being open to playing Metalworker based builds again and finding room for Grafdigger's Cage.

 

I don't think Cage will replace Rod or Stony Silence in Fishy decks.  It'll replace Chalice.  Chalice was used to fight Tinker by not allowing jewelry into play, but it sucked after turn 1.  Cage shuts off Tinker and is great after turn 1.  So Rod and Cage compliment each other nicely.  As for Vault/Key, it's a real possiblity blue decks go back to it rather than relying on Tinker so much.

Do UB decks now default to starting with 4 FoW and 4 Mental Misstep, continue running Blightsteel Colossus, and work to fight Grafdigger's Cage?  
My first testing will be done this weekend.  I had already accepted Mental Misstep as a 3-4 of in my control decks because it proves so effective at battling other UB decks in addition to shutting down decks like Dark Times.  If Shop decks adopt Grafdigger's Cage I see Mental Misstep as being no longer situational.  The only drawback I ever saw in Mental Misstep is that it didn't have game against Shops.

I think the format was already well on its way to 4 Fow + 4 MM.  I also look for decks to play at least 4 more counterspells whether it's MBT, MisD, Spell Pierce/Snare, Flusterstorm, or Negate.  And a full compliment of Snapcaster Mage.

Does Dredge now have to slow itself slightly by maindecking things like Nature's Claim or Ingot Chewer or the likes?
If Grafdigger's Cage catches fire and is maindecked by decks not playing Tinker or Oath of Druids I see Dredge suffering the most.  I think that Mental Misstep gets played more if this is the case, and my testing has proven that UB decks that maindeck one piece of grave hate and four Mental Missteps will snag a not insignificant percentage of game 1s from Dredge.  

They'll have to maindeck something.  Claims are probably the first thing they'll turn to.  Chewers are okay, but not as versitile in games 2 and 3.  

Do Oath decks survive?
I think they do though I'm not sure in which incarnation.  I like the idea of playing a single Laboratory Maniac and ignoring the Grafdigger's Cage.  In fact, I will be brewing up some Oath lists that do just this.  Maybe Oath maindecks more artifact destruction, ignores Grafdigger's Cage, and continues playing dinosaurs.  I can also see them going back to the Vault/Key package.  

Sure, they'll survive.  Maniac Oath looks pretty cool since it can maindeck Cage as well and thwart Blue/Dredge players while advancing their own strategies.  Pretty cool.

Do Shop decks make themselves susceptible to Mental Misstep and adopt Grafdigger's Cage as maindeck UB and Oath hate?  
I can see Shops dropping a lock piece, specifically Null Rod.  I don't blame them; I think Grafdigger's Cage does much more for less without a symmetrical effect.

After initially putting it in their main, MUD decks will switch the cages to the SB once the novelty and effectiveness wear off.  It's much better for them than LotV vs. Dredge, so they'll play it in some way, shape, or form.

[OmniStrife_101]

Does this also mean that there is also a chance we will see the unrestriction of Flash?=)

[BaronSengir]

Stephen, after listening to your MTGCast on this card when you guys were talking about what decks would like to play this card I started to think that Landstill may like to  no? How many though you think?

[meadbert]

The first question is how good is this card? 
It does not address most draw engines.
It does address broken win conditions like Dread Return, Oath, Tinker and Yawg.
It does not address Vault/Key, which by itself makes it much weaker vs Tinker since most Tinker decks run Vault/Key.
If anything this helps a Tinker deck since this is now a viable Tinker target.
Yawg decks are used to needing to bounce a threat (or run Misstep to counter it) before going off.  This is a nice card vs Yawg, but hardly just beats them.
Oath decks run Vault/Key still, but this does shut off Oath pretty hard.
This is worse than Pithing Needle against Dredge, because this neither remove threats from the game permanently like Planar Void nor does it shut down Dredge's draw engine.  If maindecked this would have a similar effect to maindecking Pithing Needle, but I do not see large quantities of these maindecked.

What I expect the most likely use will be as a very common sideboard card to fight Oath, Dredge and Long if that ever shows up again.

Then this is strong tutor target in the main.

Along with Vault/Key the other "broken" comboes that still work are Painter/Grindstone, Helmline, Fastbond/Crucible and Salvagers Recursion.

Of those Salvagers seems best positioned to benefit.  First, Oath is what has kept Salvagers down and this card makes fighting Oath easier.

Second, Trinket Mage can fetch this card as a one of in a main deck so it fits nicely into a controlling bomberman shell.

Third, Bomberman's main combo is untouched by this card.

A second comment I would like to make is regarding Shop decks.  This card is an artifact and is sort of good with Shops.  It still does not address Vault/Key or medium sized creatures (Goyf.)

To me Ensnaring Bridge and Null Rod are natural cards to run along side this in a shop Deck, but I am not sure where to go from there.  I have been toying around with a few Turboland and Uba Stax lists with Rod, Bridge and Cage, but I have nothing yet.  The trouble for Uba Stax is that this card is a speed bump rather than a lock (like Null Brooch or Uba Lock) and speed bumps do not play well with Ensnaring Bridge since you cannot run big creatures.

Turboland in theory seems better, but in practice it is not working yet.  It recently occured to me that Bazaar/Squee might be better since it is unaffected by this card and Cage is likely to mean fewer cards that hate out Squee.

Right now, I think Bomberman is the best home for Cage, but I still hope to find something with Turboland.

[Darkenslight]

I have to disagree that this card doesn't obliterate Dredge: it stops Narcomeba and Bloodghast from returning from the GY, as well as stopping the Dread return plan, meadbert.

It's a very powerful hate card, but it needs more support. Will it enable new archetypes? Possibly. But I know one thing: it's most definitely a game-changer.

[Neonico]

Whenever a really good dredge hoser is printed, it makes it alot easier for the dredge player, just because you have to fight one thing....

The cage is huge against Dredge, yes, but you can easily adapt if everyone plays it, such as maindecking Mental Misstep/Unmask, perahaps Force of will in some heavy blue cards versions, and having a sideboard dedicated only to deal with Artefacts/Enchantements.

[meadbert]

I have to disagree that this card doesn't obliterate Dredge: it stops Narcomeba and Bloodghast from returning from the GY, as well as stopping the Dread return plan, meadbert.

It's a very powerful hate card, but it needs more support. Will it enable new archetypes? Possibly. But I know one thing: it's most definitely a game-changer.

So my expectation is that a lot of folks will try roguish decks with 4 of these in the main for a while which will be bad for Dredge.
Then those roguish decks will not do well, and folks will commonly run 4 in the board and frequently run 1 as a tutor target.

The 1 maindeck as a tutor target will hurt Dredge's game 1 plan so that will hurt Dredge.
The 3 in the board are less threatening than Planar Void (which RFGs your cards) and Pithing Needle (which stops your draw engine to find answers.)

Ultimately it will be a wash.

A question is if Dredge should run stuff in the main to combat the 1 Cage.  I will be looking into that.
Mental Misstep actually makes it tempting to run a blue version of Dredge.

Even without Breakthrough and Careful Study you can run Force, Misstep, Narcos, Fatestitchers and possibly the Sharuum engine which gets you to around 20 blue cards.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Even without Breakthrough and Careful Study you can run Force, Misstep, Narcos, Fatestitchers and possibly the Sharuum engine which gets you to around 20 blue cards.

For the uninitiated, how does the clock for a 'blue' dredge list compare with the current fatestitcher builds?

If it stays earlier than turn 3 on average and has FoW/misstep, I'm going to be very worried about the format.

[meadbert]

Even without Breakthrough and Careful Study you can run Force, Misstep, Narcos, Fatestitchers and possibly the Sharuum engine which gets you to around 20 blue cards.

For the uninitiated, how does the clock for a 'blue' dredge list compare with the current fatestitcher builds?

If it stays earlier than turn 3 on average and has FoW/misstep, I'm going to be very worried about the format.

I have not tested it much recently, because once Mental Misstep was printed relying on Breakthrough and Careful Study became terrible.

[Troy_Costisick]

Even without Breakthrough and Careful Study you can run Force, Misstep, Narcos, Fatestitchers and possibly the Sharuum engine which gets you to around 20 blue cards.

For the uninitiated, how does the clock for a 'blue' dredge list compare with the current fatestitcher builds?

If it stays earlier than turn 3 on average and has FoW/misstep, I'm going to be very worried about the format.

I have not tested it much recently, because once Mental Misstep was printed relying on Breakthrough and Careful Study became terrible.

It's amazing how much of an impact that little counterspell is making.

[Darkenslight]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/179

Zac Hill's Dev articvle on the Mothership regarding the Cage.  It makes for interesting reading, especially this part:

One of the dangers of any non-rotating format is that it necessarily stagnates unless cards are introduced into the environment that shake it up. This is different from saying that format is stagnant right now. It's more of a math problem: the larger a pool of cards that you can play becomes, the less likely it is that any single new card is going to be considered playable in that world—that is, unless you try.

Grafdigger's Cage definitely represents a try.

[vaughnbros]

Even without Breakthrough and Careful Study you can run Force, Misstep, Narcos, Fatestitchers and possibly the Sharuum engine which gets you to around 20 blue cards.

For the uninitiated, how does the clock for a 'blue' dredge list compare with the current fatestitcher builds?

If it stays earlier than turn 3 on average and has FoW/misstep, I'm going to be very worried about the format.

ive been running a version with mental misstep, unmask, leyline of the void, and a couple other md answers and by the end of my turn 3 your hand will be decimated and i will have a hoard of zombies on the table.  Being able to do much more than unmask and therapy once after turn 2 is rare.  So if your worried about before turn 3 you shouldn't, but turn 3 or later you should.

[voltron00x]

Leyline seems awfully weak at the moment.

[vaughnbros]

Leyline seems awfully weak at the moment.

yeh protecting my bridges, stopping will/snapcasters, beating the mirror, as well as being able to pitch it to my unmasks seems pretty weak.

This could have been written in a more civil manner.  Please do so in the future.  - Prospero

[Stormanimagus]

Leyline seems awfully weak at the moment.

yeh protecting my bridges, stopping will/snapcasters, beating the mirror, as well as being able to pitch it to my unmasks seems pretty weak.

This reads like an attack.  If you'd care to make your point, please do so in a civil manner.  - Prospero

Prospero, This reads as sarcasm. I think when people are truly attacking each other it is pretty clear. You gave me a full warning for a recent comment in another thread that was an impassioned opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. Mike Noble and I talk occasionally via FB chat and we've come to agree to disagree on many things but I still respect him as a player. That's why I know he can take it when I point out his BS. He acknowledged to me privately that his SB was sorta a joke and I was simply pointing out how Vintage players will follow anyone's opinion that they respect even if that person is clearly not thinking things through. That was my point and it was certainly not intended to come across as harsh or rude.

I think you, as a mod, need to be a bit less touchy and stop trying to police these forums for spam where non exists. Pick out the real spam and leave the tongue and cheek stuff alone.

-Storm

This is clearly not acceptable for a number of reasons, but where to start? First off, sarcasm and an attack are by no means mutually exclusive. For example, if I were to say "Stormanimagus, you are a model poster and have contributed some excellent discussion to this website today!" I am being both sarcastic and attacking you at the same time. Secondly, having an impassioned opinion about something also doesn't give you a free pass from civility for that post. Lastly, your personal interactions outside of this forum on another media should have no bearing on whether an action is or is not acceptable behavior on this forum. In text, good natured jabbing between friends and acquaintances can look very similar to belligerence and vice versa. As such being mindful that more people than just yourselves will be seeing your words should prompt you to select them with greater tact and caution than you have shown.

With regards to this post itself, It's completely off topic from the thread and serves no purpose other than to publicly second guess Nick's judgment as a moderator. If you really felt that Nick's actions were unwarranted the proper response would have been to PM Nick and follow the procedure for an appeal as described by the site rules. The wrong thing to do was to make this post.

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-MM

[voltron00x]

Leyline seems awfully weak at the moment.

yeh protecting my bridges, stopping will/snapcasters, beating the mirror, as well as being able to pitch it to my unmasks seems pretty weak.

I'd like to take a moment to address why I think Leylines are weak at the moment, and then look at your response.

So, why does Dredge often play Leyline of the Void?

Dredge decks usually don't play counters, and therefore are looking for another way to interact with their opponent on turns 0-1.  In Vintage, of course, decks often need a way to interact immediately due to the threat of a turn 1 or 2 loss if the opponent is left unimpeded.  In lieu of counters, therefore, Dredge decks often turn to Chalice of the Void, Leyline of the Void, and Unmask.  Chalice on 0 locks out opposing fast mana, preventing Tinker, Will, and storm combo from being effective, while Unmask can strip a key card from the opponents hand while still allowing you to play a first-turn Bazaar.  It also makes subsequent Cabal Therapies on turn two that much stronger (or might let you know that you have to lead with a rainbow land into Therapy on turn 1 to ensure you reach turn 2).  

While these cards are both good, both are weighted heavily toward being on the play.  Leyline of the Void, however, has no such concern; its the only way many Dredge decks can interact on turn 0.  Leyline of the Void used to help prevent a turn one loss to Flash, but as it turns out, its a pretty decent card in a lot of Vintage metagames.  It turns off opposing Yawgmoth's Will, beats other Graveyard decks (Dredge, Dragon, Hermit Druid, etc), makes Snapcaster Mage very marginal, and prevents opponents from "breaking" your Bridges.  In theory, it also gives you more black cards to pitch to Unmask.

Given all of this, why would this particular moment in time (and I'm speakin of post-Grafdigger's Cage Vintage beginning next Saturday, not this exact moment of 6:41am on 1/28/12) be one where Leyline of the Void is, in my opinion, pretty weak?

First, Grafdigger's Cage now exists.  While I think that people are really overstating how much maindeck play this card is going to see at first*, certainly some people will do so, and absolutely it will be popular in sideboards because it hits multiple decks at once.  As a result, I suspect that many people are going to avoid Dredge for a while, and some that still play it, won't be prepared for GDC and will do poorly.  Similarly, other GY decks like Dragon and Hermit seem poorly positioned as well.  If opposing GY strategies are expected to dramatically decline, one of the value propositions for LotV disappears.

Second, Storm combo is a miniscule part of the metagame at the moment.  There is a very low probability that your opponent is going to show up rocking Dark Rituals right now (although it obviously still happens).  Most storm cards are showing up in Gush decks as an optional kill mechanism, and while these decks certainly can win on turn 1 and turn 2, that's the exception to the rule.  Leyline as a card to prevent Yawgmoth's Will, Intuition, and Gifts Ungiven against blazing fast storm-centric decks isn't really that useful at the moment, at least in the US.  Cards like Mystic Remora as well as the popularity of Shops and Mental Misstep have made life miserable for that style of deck.

Because of this, I am pretty sure that you can find a better card than the marginal utlility that you're getting out of Leyline of the Void.  To directly review the value of the card, you said that you use Leyline for:

"protecting my Bridges" - I can't tell you how many games of Dredge I've played, but trust me when I tell you that it is astronomical across the formats where the deck is legal.  When I played Dredge in old Extended, you needed Leyline for this purpose, especially in matchups like Affinity and Goblins.  But in Vintage?  I think I've only had an opponent "break" my Bridges in Vintage but a few times, typically against something like Slash Panther or Noble Fish.  The thing is, against both of those opponents you don't need Leyline for its key benefits as listed above; sure, you can help prevent your Bridges from breaking, but that's a really marginal use of a 4-of and one that typically comes up, in my experience, when you're already winning.

"stopping will/snapcasters" - Stopping Will, I will grant you, although as I noted, stopping Will on turn 1 seems signifcantly less relevant to me that it did before, and there are alternative options available now that didn't exist before, as well as Chalice of the Void.  Stopping Snapcasters?  Sure, Leyline does do that... but again, if you're playing Dredge, and your opponent is playing Snapcasters, you should already be winning.  Counters aren't that effective against you game 1, and Snapcasters are relatively mana intensive (ie, slow).  If your opponent is playing Snapcaster Control, its a safe bet that you're way ahead game 1.  Now, we look at game 2/3.  Are you keeping Leyline of the Void in against a deck with 3 Snapcasters and 1 Will?  I doubt that I would do so, given the necessity of playing through counters plus hate, Leyline is usually one of the cards you'd board out.

"beating the mirror" - as I said, the mirror isn't going to come up nearly as often as it used to (which, in my experience, was already not that often as Dredge rarely breaks 20% of the metagame and is often much less).  This is a function of knowing that GDC exists, people will play it, and even if they don't, the threat of GDC will scare people off Dredge and Oath, reducing the value of LotV for this purpose (and against other GY-based decks).

"pitch it to my Unmasks" - Again, I'm just not sure this is going to come up a lot, if we think about this statement and how games actually play out.  If you have LotV in the dark, you're probably slamming it turn 0. If you have multiples, perhaps you keep one if you have Unmask in your hand, but how often is this scenario coming up?  And, how good is that hand (Leyline, Leyline, Unmask) on a mulligan to 5? to 4?  Given that Leyline is one of the few cards in Dredge that you have to have in your opening hand, and when you do, you almost always are playing it, probably the only time you're going to see additional Leylines in game 1 is off your first Bazaar activation.  And yes, I'm sure this does come up now and again... but more often, I find that I'm playing Bazaar, and probably using Unmask with something I have a lot of copies of in my deck and which I know I will hit more copies of (ie Stinkweed Imp, Ichorid, Bloodghast, etc).  Occasionally I might even save the Unmask until turn 2, pitching a black Dredge card I've brought back to my hand during my Draw step (so, Upkeep, Bazaar, Dredge, Dredge, move to Draw, Dredge, bring back black card, pitch to Unmask).  It depends on the matchup, of course, but regardless, my point is that pitching LotV to Unmask requires you to either draw LotV off the top of your deck, which in game 1 shouldn't be happening outside of your first Bazaar activation, or it means that you're choosing to pitch a Leyline instead of playing it, which I suppose isn't impossible given the marginal value of LotV as I mention, above.

Perhaps that helps clarify my thought process?

I wasn't able to post all of this originally because I was replying from my phone, but still wanted to put the thought out there and see if anyone wanted to parse through why LotV might not be great right now.



*The interesting thing about GDC is that if everyone assumes other people are playing it, the effect on the metagame is pretty similar regardless of whether or not everyone actually is, in fact, playing it:  Dredge, Dragon, and Oath decline in numbers.  It will be curious to see how many people actually play GDC, and how many just assume someone else is playing it and adjust according to what they expect the post-GDC meta will look like.

[vaughnbros]

"beating the mirror" - as I said, the mirror isn't going to come up nearly as often as it used to (which, in my experience, was already not that often as Dredge rarely breaks 20% of the metagame and is often much less).  This is a function of knowing that GDC exists, people will play it, and even if they don't, the threat of GDC will scare people off Dredge and Oath, reducing the value of LotV for this purpose (and against other GY-based decks).

If we are assuming that no one else is playing a graveyard based deck then of course leyline isn't going to be good because thats probably the only match ups your not going to be siding it out in, but this is a huge assumption.  This would be like going to a tournament with 0 dredge hate cards in your entire deck.  I think you are of the same opinion that I am that grafdigger's is not going to stop graveyard decks from existing.

"protecting my Bridges" - I can't tell you how many games of Dredge I've played, but trust me when I tell you that it is astronomical across the formats where the deck is legal.  When I played Dredge in old Extended, you needed Leyline for this purpose, especially in matchups like Affinity and Goblins.  But in Vintage?  I think I've only had an opponent "break" my Bridges in Vintage but a few times, typically against something like Slash Panther or Noble Fish.  The thing is, against both of those opponents you don't need Leyline for its key benefits as listed above; sure, you can help prevent your Bridges from breaking, but that's a really marginal use of a 4-of and one that typically comes up, in my experience, when you're already winning.

Perhaps i shouldve mentioned this before, but I am not running dread return in my list.  For example against versions of stax they can stalemate the board with precursors, wurmcoils, and steel hellkites if they are able to threaten to destroy my bridges with a metalworker/phyrexian revoker or actually do destroy them with a phyrexian metamorph.

"stopping will/snapcasters" - Stopping Will, I will grant you, although as I noted, stopping Will on turn 1 seems signifcantly less relevant to me that it did before, and there are alternative options available now that didn't exist before, as well as Chalice of the Void.  Stopping Snapcasters?  Sure, Leyline does do that... but again, if you're playing Dredge, and your opponent is playing Snapcasters, you should already be winning.  Counters aren't that effective against you game 1, and Snapcasters are relatively mana intensive (ie, slow).  If your opponent is playing Snapcaster Control, its a safe bet that you're way ahead game 1.  Now, we look at game 2/3.  Are you keeping Leyline of the Void in against a deck with 3 Snapcasters and 1 Will?  I doubt that I would do so, given the necessity of playing through counters plus hate, Leyline is usually one of the cards you'd board out.

I agree its rare that you have to worry about will or snapcasters, but there are scenarios where it happens.  Snapcaster combined with a surgical extration can cut the entire backbone of the deck out, either stinkweed imps and golgari grave-trolls or bridges and bloodghasts.  Then theres gush decks where if you do not draw your other forms of disruptions, like unmask/mental misstep,  they are capable of basically goldfishing you for the first couple turns then you have to make random stabs with therapies to try and get back into the game.

Now with all this said.  If other graveyard based decks ceast to exist and dredge decks as a whole are seen even less than they currently are then id definitely be cutting LotV.  Since that was my main reason for running it in the first place.  However I doubt that a 1 drop artifact that only offers a boost for decks that are not currently powerhouses in the metagame will really irradicate graveyard decks from the format.

[nineisnoone]

I have to disagree that this card doesn't obliterate Dredge: it stops Narcomeba and Bloodghast from returning from the GY, as well as stopping the Dread return plan, meadbert.

It's a very powerful hate card, but it needs more support. Will it enable new archetypes? Possibly. But I know one thing: it's most definitely a game-changer.

So my expectation is that a lot of folks will try roguish decks with 4 of these in the main for a while which will be bad for Dredge.
Then those roguish decks will not do well, and folks will commonly run 4 in the board and frequently run 1 as a tutor target.

The 1 maindeck as a tutor target will hurt Dredge's game 1 plan so that will hurt Dredge.
The 3 in the board are less threatening than Planar Void (which RFGs your cards) and Pithing Needle (which stops your draw engine to find answers.)

Ultimately it will be a wash.

A question is if Dredge should run stuff in the main to combat the 1 Cage.  I will be looking into that.
Mental Misstep actually makes it tempting to run a blue version of Dredge.

Even without Breakthrough and Careful Study you can run Force, Misstep, Narcos, Fatestitchers and possibly the Sharuum engine which gets you to around 20 blue cards.

I've actually 180'ed on my opinion of this card. I think it's stronger than the above opinion, but it won't be as format altering as I thought.

I would definitely run Mental Misstep in Dredge, regardless of how cage plays out (well, depends on the specific list as any decision does I suppose).

I would actually run Mindbreak Trap rather than Force though. You don't really need the proactive element of Force, so for the most part it works when you need it to. Plus with the inclusion of Mental Misstep, you are more likely to actively for a counter way and get Mindbreak online.

[dangerlinto]

I have to disagree that this card doesn't obliterate Dredge: it stops Narcomeba and Bloodghast from returning from the GY, as well as stopping the Dread return plan, meadbert.

It's a very powerful hate card, but it needs more support. Will it enable new archetypes? Possibly. But I know one thing: it's most definitely a game-changer.

So my expectation is that a lot of folks will try roguish decks with 4 of these in the main for a while which will be bad for Dredge.
Then those roguish decks will not do well, and folks will commonly run 4 in the board and frequently run 1 as a tutor target.

The 1 maindeck as a tutor target will hurt Dredge's game 1 plan so that will hurt Dredge.
The 3 in the board are less threatening than Planar Void (which RFGs your cards) and Pithing Needle (which stops your draw engine to find answers.)

Ultimately it will be a wash.

A question is if Dredge should run stuff in the main to combat the 1 Cage.  I will be looking into that.
Mental Misstep actually makes it tempting to run a blue version of Dredge.

Even without Breakthrough and Careful Study you can run Force, Misstep, Narcos, Fatestitchers and possibly the Sharuum engine which gets you to around 20 blue cards.

I've actually 180'ed on my opinion of this card. I think it's stronger than the above opinion, but it won't be as format altering as I thought.

I would definitely run Mental Misstep in Dredge, regardless of how cage plays out (well, depends on the specific list as any decision does I suppose).

I would actually run Mindbreak Trap rather than Force though. You don't really need the proactive element of Force, so for the most part it works when you need it to. Plus with the inclusion of Mental Misstep, you are more likely to actively for a counter way and get Mindbreak online.

I must be missing how Mindbreak Trap fits in there.  It seems pretty weak waiting for your opponent to lay 3 spells, and only after that does it become active in your hand.  Playing around Trap in a non-storm deck is ridiculously easy - especially if your goal is to push through anything that doesn't cost 1  And even then, it seems like a pipe dream for the play to be something like Cage, misstep cage, misstep misstep, misstep misstep, Free Counter on Miststep, HA HA Trap!

[Onslaught]

I keep getting rolled by Bomberman with Cage in it, but that's without modifying any of my decks to take Cage into account. Still, it's really annoying to see Trinket Mage tutor it out. Besides working to protect and resolve Tinker, you now also need to Mystical/Vamp/Scroll/Demonic or whatever for your Hurk's. This falls right into their Aven Mindcensor plan, so it's got great synergy. Any blue decks without Vault/Key were having a really rough time against Bomberman, so maybe Vault/Key will return to prominence a bit.

[nineisnoone]

I have to disagree that this card doesn't obliterate Dredge: it stops Narcomeba and Bloodghast from returning from the GY, as well as stopping the Dread return plan, meadbert.

It's a very powerful hate card, but it needs more support. Will it enable new archetypes? Possibly. But I know one thing: it's most definitely a game-changer.

So my expectation is that a lot of folks will try roguish decks with 4 of these in the main for a while which will be bad for Dredge.
Then those roguish decks will not do well, and folks will commonly run 4 in the board and frequently run 1 as a tutor target.

The 1 maindeck as a tutor target will hurt Dredge's game 1 plan so that will hurt Dredge.
The 3 in the board are less threatening than Planar Void (which RFGs your cards) and Pithing Needle (which stops your draw engine to find answers.)

Ultimately it will be a wash.

A question is if Dredge should run stuff in the main to combat the 1 Cage.  I will be looking into that.
Mental Misstep actually makes it tempting to run a blue version of Dredge.

Even without Breakthrough and Careful Study you can run Force, Misstep, Narcos, Fatestitchers and possibly the Sharuum engine which gets you to around 20 blue cards.

I've actually 180'ed on my opinion of this card. I think it's stronger than the above opinion, but it won't be as format altering as I thought.

I would definitely run Mental Misstep in Dredge, regardless of how cage plays out (well, depends on the specific list as any decision does I suppose).

I would actually run Mindbreak Trap rather than Force though. You don't really need the proactive element of Force, so for the most part it works when you need it to. Plus with the inclusion of Mental Misstep, you are more likely to actively for a counter way and get Mindbreak online.

I must be missing how Mindbreak Trap fits in there.  It seems pretty weak waiting for your opponent to lay 3 spells, and only after that does it become active in your hand.  Playing around Trap in a non-storm deck is ridiculously easy - especially if your goal is to push through anything that doesn't cost 1  And even then, it seems like a pipe dream for the play to be something like Cage, misstep cage, misstep misstep, misstep misstep, Free Counter on Miststep, HA HA Trap!

If they cast 2 spells during the main phase (for their own purposes), and then you cast Chain of Vapor (to bounce whatever), then they counter it, you activate trap.  I don't think that is that unlikely to be honest.

[nineisnoone]

I keep getting rolled by Bomberman with Cage in it, but that's without modifying any of my decks to take Cage into account. Still, it's really annoying to see Trinket Mage tutor it out. Besides working to protect and resolve Tinker, you now also need to Mystical/Vamp/Scroll/Demonic or whatever for your Hurk's. This falls right into their Aven Mindcensor plan, so it's got great synergy. Any blue decks without Vault/Key were having a really rough time against Bomberman, so maybe Vault/Key will return to prominence a bit.

love me some bomber man. I always played a singleton Pithing Needle in my builds (or at least I i did).

[Onslaught]

love me some bomber man. I always played a singleton Pithing Needle in my builds (or at least I i did).

Oh yeah, Needle on Time Vault came up a lot too. Bomberman with Mindcensors really benefits so much from Cage, it's uncanny.