[Theoetical]Intruding Welder

[Darkenslight]

Here is a design for a potential combo deck revolving around Intruder Alarm and Goblin Welder.  IT is a UR combo deck utilising the untap clause on Intruder Alarm, with possible splashes for White (for ET) and Black (for DT and Disciple of the Vault).  The draw will be focussed on the "looting" aspect, both to fill the graveyard and for the drawing power.

Here's a starter core to get an idea:

Mana:

4 Mpuntain
3 Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Sclading Tarn
Moxen (Ruby, Sapphire)

4 Intruder Alarm
4 Goblin Welder
4 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Cathodion/Su-Chi
2 Sphinx Summoner
2 Arcbound Reclaimer
2 Arbound Crusher/Whetwheel

4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study

Leaving 15 slots for other stuff.  Now some of that should be mana.  There aren't (yet) enough card to reliably have Force in the deck.  There's some obvious cards that are missing right now, but seering as the deck is currently in the brainstorming phase, i see no issue with that.

Thoughts/critiques/decklists are always appreciated.

[Bill Copes]

Pardon my ignorance, but can you spell out the combo here?  Is it welder, Intruder Alarm and 2 dudes with "comes-into-play" effects?

Is there a way to do this to just kill the opponent outright, without having to attack? (Like, stack Trike pings or something?)

[waffles]

Pardon my ignorance, but can you spell out the combo here?  Is it welder, Intruder Alarm and 2 dudes with "comes-into-play" effects?

Is there a way to do this to just kill the opponent outright, without having to attack? (Like, stack Trike pings or something?)

Yes, but this is outlined in my proliferate thread, http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43850.0 I go through most of the interactions of infinite welds.

[Delha]

From said thread.

...my recommendation is to try building this out with cheap, utilitarian artifacts (not necessarily all creatures) that play well with Welder. You want to make sure the deck still does something when you don't have the combo out.

Intuition helps dig up Intruder Alarm and grabbing your wincons after that.

Mox Monkey should be included to kill the Cages people are going to be running, and obviously plays well with Welder.

Finally, you'll also want answers (in the side, at minimum) for the Dredge hate that'll naturally come in against you.

Also, he's right. You should ditch all the creatures outside of Welder/Simulacrum. You don't need infi mana, you just need something that kills them (probably via ETB effect or a limited use ability that you reset via welding). There's no need to mess around with Cathodion/SuChi + Whetwheel when you can just use Trike/Pierce Strider/etc to win flat out.

If you insist on keep infi mana as an option, use something like the mana Myr so that it actually helps accelerate you into the combo.

T1 land Welder, T2 land Myr, T3 land Alarm + Careful Study/Breakthrough/etc can be a win. If you replace the Myr with anything that isn't acceleration, it slows you down by a full turn at minimum.

[Darkenslight]

From said thread.

...my recommendation is to try building this out with cheap, utilitarian artifacts (not necessarily all creatures) that play well with Welder. You want to make sure the deck still does something when you don't have the combo out.

Intuition helps dig up Intruder Alarm and grabbing your wincons after that.

Mox Monkey should be included to kill the Cages people are going to be running, and obviously plays well with Welder.

Finally, you'll also want answers (in the side, at minimum) for the Dredge hate that'll naturally come in against you.

Also, he's right. You should ditch all the creatures outside of Welder/Simulacrum. You don't need infi mana, you just need something that kills them (probably via ETB effect or a limited use ability that you reset via welding). There's no need to mess around with Cathodion/SuChi + Whetwheel when you can just use Trike/Pierce Strider/etc to win flat out.

If you insist on keep infi mana as an option, use something like the mana Myr so that it actually helps accelerate you into the combo.

T1 land Welder, T2 land Myr, T3 land Alarm + Careful Study/Breakthrough/etc can be a win. If you replace the Myr with anything that isn't acceleration, it slows you down by a full turn at minimum.

I wasn't sure if splashing black for Tutors and Disciple of the Vault wasn't worth it, and going RBu (with the U being for Intruder Alarm and the broken stuff.)  I was opriginally looking at Runed Servitor, but then I saqw it let each player draw, which is much weaker than Solemn:  The alternate framework of artifact creatures would be:

4 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Pierce Strider
1 Myr Battlesphere

I guess you'd probably play a higher basic count than other decks, due to Jens, but I'm wondering if you'd play the full set of jewelery in this kind of deck (probably a dumb thing to say, but hey ).

The manabase would probably be 8 fetch (Scalding and Bloodstained)with 9 lands, with 5-6 artifact-based accel (Lotus, URB Moxen, maybe the others and Sol Ring).

So far we have this:

4 Sclading tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
SoLoMoxen

4 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Pierce Strider
4 Goblin Welder
4 Gorilla Shaman

4 Intruder Alarm
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
2 Breakthrough

...Which doesn't leave that much left.  Would Fatestitcher be an okay addition to this deck to start the combo off?

[Delha]

Off the top of my head:

-Black for Tutors is probably fine, but Disciple doesn't seem worthwhile. The list should be built so that if you're going off you win w/out having to cast him.

-I'd like to include all the jewelry, but I believe waffles builds unpowered.

-Trike + Strider seems redundant, which would you lean towards?

-With guys like Dupe/Titan, Intuition feels like an even stronger call.

-We can probably cut to 3x Mox Monkey, since he sucks in multiples.

-I don't think Stitcher makes the cut.

-I'd probably mainboard a Hurkyl's and a piece of bounce to tutor up.

-Maybe Frantic Search or Read the Runes over Faithless Looting? There will definitely be times where you want cards off the top, or want to dump a piece that's already in hand. The list doesn't care about CA very much, we're not about to engage in counterwars here.

[waffles]

Off the top of my head:

-Black for Tutors is probably fine, but Disciple doesn't seem worthwhile. The list should be built so that if you're going off you win w/out having to cast him.

-I'd like to include all the jewelry, but I believe waffles builds underpowered.

-Trike + Strider seems redundant, which would you lean towards?

-With guys like Dupe/Titan, Intuition feels like an even stronger call.

-We can probably cut to 3x Mox Monkey, since he sucks in multiples.

-I don't think Stitcher makes the cut.

-I'd probably mainboard a Hurkyl's and a piece of bounce to tutor up.

-Maybe Frantic Search or Read the Runes over Faithless Looting? There will definitely be times where you want cards off the top, or want to dump a piece that's already in hand. The list doesn't care about CA very much, we're not about to engage in counterwars here.

I do build underpowered, but i would like to build this with the community in mind, so lets do a powered version i can make adjustments from there. 4x Solemn seems a bit much i would try 2 Solemn instead.

Architects of Will seems like a very powerful control option, through the manipulation of the opponent's top deck in addition to your own.

Faerie Mechanist is a good tutor option, finding any artifact. Any number of the discard options available could get it to the gy.

It is a worth a look for at core prowler for the loop, ramping counters on smokestack at the end of my turn, would cause the stax player to lose everything. The infect is an attractive feature to it too.

Sylvok Replica seems to be the best answer to Leyline of the void, and Oath. As Delha had pointed out the dredge hate is this deck's natural enemy. An additional threat to this deck is a welder mirror. They could do the same trick we are trying to accomplish which is very bad. In this case necropede seems like an okay option.

Why the battlesphere over wurmcoil engine? Also since we are using black does is the inclusion of lim-dul's vault, tezz's gambit seem warrented?

[Bill Copes]

Off the top of my head:

-Black for Tutors is probably fine, but Disciple doesn't seem worthwhile. The list should be built so that if you're going off you win w/out having to cast him.

-I'd like to include all the jewelry, but I believe waffles builds unpowered.

-Trike + Strider seems redundant, which would you lean towards?

-With guys like Dupe/Titan, Intuition feels like an even stronger call.

-We can probably cut to 3x Mox Monkey, since he sucks in multiples.

-I don't think Stitcher makes the cut.

-I'd probably mainboard a Hurkyl's and a piece of bounce to tutor up.

-Maybe Frantic Search or Read the Runes over Faithless Looting? There will definitely be times where you want cards off the top, or want to dump a piece that's already in hand. The list doesn't care about CA very much, we're not about to engage in counterwars here.

I attempted to take some of these suggestions and develop a shell that wedges in Forces for a little protection.  They should probably be Mental Missteps, but I guess it's hard to determine this without having actually played the deck.

With Shaman + Welder, you already have a natural foil to Graffdigger's Cage, so I also included Tinker + Blightsteel as a secondary out.  Tinkering for Trike can also win games handily.  

I added blue restricted spells and trimmed some of the filtering junk.  I figue Drawing 3 for   and finding one of said spells is better than running redundant multiples.  We run mad fetches, so brainstorm also gets included.

Fascinating deck idea.  It's a shame I just got rid of my playset of Jens'.

2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Sclading tarn
1 Mountain
3 Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt

4 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Triskelion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Goblin Welder
3 Gorilla Shaman

4 Intruder Alarm
4 Careful Study
2 Faithless Looting
2 Breakthrough  //  1 Merchant Scroll, 1 Breakthrough

4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm

[Delha]

I like this version a lot.

One of the thing that was bothering me was that Welder + Alarm + 2x Jens didn't get you there. You get lots of (tapped) basics and CA, but still have to pass. With jewelry, you really should be able to win on the spot, and if for whatever reason you can't, drawing til you've got 2x or 3x FoW ought to keep you alive through their turn.

Do you think it'd be worthwhile to add in a singleton bounce spell for opposing Leylines?

[Bill Copes]

I like this version a lot.

One of the thing that was bothering me was that Welder + Alarm + 2x Jens didn't get you there. You get lots of (tapped) basics and CA, but still have to pass. With jewelry, you really should be able to win on the spot, and if for whatever reason you can't, drawing til you've got 2x or 3x FoW ought to keep you alive through their turn.

Do you think it'd be worthwhile to add in a singleton bounce spell for opposing Leylines?

Yeah, that's probably a good idea if decks sporting Leyline in the main become more-so popular (Dark Times, Dredge, etc).  We can swap out Hurk's for E. Truth in this situation.
I almost always have one in the sideboard as a catch-all.

[waffles]

I like this version a lot.

One of the thing that was bothering me was that Welder + Alarm + 2x Jens didn't get you there. You get lots of (tapped) basics and CA, but still have to pass. With jewelry, you really should be able to win on the spot, and if for whatever reason you can't, drawing til you've got 2x or 3x FoW ought to keep you alive through their turn.

Do you think it'd be worthwhile to add in a singleton bounce spell for opposing Leylines?

Yes 2x Jen loop is extranius under the alarm sure you draw quite abit what else are you going to do with it? With that said the loop should be more often then not Jen+ something else, depending on if you really need the cards. ive added +1 mechanist, +1 Sojourners -1 jen. My the reason for choices are that the mechanist can find you something faster in one cycle than just 2x jen. The Sojourners gives you a control aspect by tapping everything out or untapping your things. Btw, this is a very good home for my pet card, Bitter Ordeal in a one off as a 3rd win con, it works since we have a gy recurrsion loop.

Jen+Sojourners: control, land fetch/draw loop.

2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Sclading tarn
1 Mountain
3 Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt

3 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Triskelion
1 Faerie Mechanist
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Esper Sojourners
4 Goblin Welder
3 Gorilla Shaman

4 Intruder Alarm
4 Careful Study
2 Faithless Looting
2 Breakthrough  //  1 Merchant Scroll, 1 Breakthrough

4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm

[serracollector]

Why is there no thirst for knowledge in either of those lists?

[Bill Copes]

Why is there no thirst for knowledge in either of those lists?

Spatial issues?

- 1 Breakthrough, + 1 Thirst

[Delha]

@Waffles: I'd suggest trying to think of all these creatures in terms of what they do before you've assembled the combo. Jens has decent utility beforehand, unlike Mechanist (overcosted) and Sojourners (very narrow). The deck doesn't need more wincons, since Trike/BSC pretty much trump alternatives anyway. If more creatures are needed, they should be accelerants such as Myr/Etherium Sculptor or have some serious utility (like say Revoker). In all cases, we should be looking for creatures that are easier to cast if at all possible.

Also, to be clear: I wasn't complaining saying that going off w/ 2x Jens was too slow. It really doesn't matter when you're going infinite anyway. My point was that you end up drawing your deck but lack the free mana to take advantage of having done so, and lack the sort of spells that leverage the CA against your opponent.

[waffles]

@Waffles: I'd suggest trying to think of all these creatures in terms of what they do before you've assembled the combo. Jens has decent utility beforehand, unlike Mechanist (overcosted) and Sojourners (very narrow). The deck doesn't need more wincons, since Trike/BSC pretty much trump alternatives anyway. If more creatures are needed, they should be accelerants such as Myr/Etherium Sculptor or have some serious utility (like say Revoker). In all cases, we should be looking for creatures that are easier to cast if at all possible.

Also, to be clear: I wasn't complaining saying that going off w/ 2x Jens was too slow. It really doesn't matter when you're going infinite anyway. My point was that you end up drawing your deck but lack the free mana to take advantage of having done so, and lack the sort of spells that leverage the CA against your opponent.

hrmm, seems my ambition far outstrips my knowledge base for this format. Beyond what has been already said in this post or the other one, ive got nothing.

[Bill Copes]

Just looked at the creature list from the other thread.  If stony silence / null rod are prevalent, Perilous Myr is a pretty decent substitute for Trike.

[waffles]

Just looked at the creature list from the other thread.  If stony silence / null rod are prevalent, Perilous Myr is a pretty decent substitute for Trike.

i did wonder about the use of trike, i had guessed you chose it over the others because of the  3 dmg vs 2 dmg potential in addition to the versatility of the counters, a potential of 3 targets vs 1.

[Delha]

Just looked at the creature list from the other thread.  If stony silence / null rod are prevalent, Perilous Myr is a pretty decent substitute for Trike.

Nice, I'd missed that. Much better than Pierce Strider.

[Darkenslight]

Just looked at the creature list from the other thread.  If stony silence / null rod are prevalent, Perilous Myr is a pretty decent substitute for Trike.

Nice, I'd missed that. Much better than Pierce Strider.

Why not have both?  Remember, loss of life gets around Angel's grace and other corner cases, whereas Perilous Myr can be used to Sharpshooot the opponent's board down, which is relevant against MUD and Stax decks for getting rid of Golems.

[Bill Copes]

Just looked at the creature list from the other thread.  If stony silence / null rod are prevalent, Perilous Myr is a pretty decent substitute for Trike.

Nice, I'd missed that. Much better than Pierce Strider.

Why not have both?  Remember, loss of life gets around Angel's grace and other corner cases, whereas Perilous Myr can be used to Sharpshooot the opponent's board down, which is relevant against MUD and Stax decks for getting rid of Golems.

For corner cases where the combo doesn't work, you have Blightsteel to circumvent them.  Extra pinger dudes are most likely redundant unless it's a meta concern to have extra the removal (you live in Dark Confidant land).

Has anyone played a match with this yet?  What are the Game 1 pitfalls?

[bluemage55]

Did some testing with the last list, with the adjustment for TfK:

Running multiple Gorilla Shamans is awful, especially without Strip/Wastes to truly lock down the opponent's mana. With the tutors in the mix now, it's also less necessary to include much redundancy. When it comes to control elements, I much prefer running Drain, especially with a number of ways to effectively sink the mana (Jens and other bots, Intruder Alarm, flashback Faithless Looting).

I had better success with +4 Mana Drain, -2 Gorilla Shaman, -1 Mana Vault, -1 Island.

[waffles]

Just looked at the creature list from the other thread.  If stony silence / null rod are prevalent, Perilous Myr is a pretty decent substitute for Trike.

Nice, I'd missed that. Much better than Pierce Strider.

Why not have both?  Remember, loss of life gets around Angel's grace and other corner cases, whereas Perilous Myr can be used to Sharpshooot the opponent's board down, which is relevant against MUD and Stax decks for getting rid of Golems.

For corner cases where the combo doesn't work, you have Blightsteel to circumvent them.  Extra pinger dudes are most likely redundant unless it's a meta concern to have extra the removal (you live in Dark Confidant land).

Has anyone played a match with this yet?  What are the Game 1 pitfalls?

Why is having the redundncy not a good thing? Typically in terms of disruptablitity, it would make it resistant against cap effects. I am not totally sold on blightsteel since he can be bounced or negated.

[Delha]

Did some testing with the last list, with the adjustment for TfK:

Running multiple Gorilla Shamans is awful, especially without Strip/Wastes to truly lock down the opponent's mana. With the tutors in the mix now, it's also less necessary to include much redundancy. When it comes to control elements, I much prefer running Drain, especially with a number of ways to effectively sink the mana (Jens and other bots, Intruder Alarm, flashback Faithless Looting).

I had better success with +4 Mana Drain, -2 Gorilla Shaman, -1 Mana Vault, -1 Island.

Sounds like we're headed back towards Slaver, heh. Not that I'm complaining, mind.

Why is having the redundncy not a good thing? Typically in terms of disruptablitity, it would make it resistant against cap effects. I am not totally sold on blightsteel since he can be bounced or negated.

Redundancy is bad because by definition it means a card is unnecessary. I realize this can easily come across as too nitpicky, but if you have a Mox Monkey in play, a second copy in hand is technically redundant until the first one eats a Swords/Bolt/etc.

The big question is whether your stuff will be removed enough for the extra copies to be relevant more often than redundant (or if the card is so critically important that it's worth it wasting space to the dead copy). Welders fall into the former category and Alarms fall into the latter. Extra pingers will almost never fulfill either requirement. People will almost always nuke welders over your pingers, and BSC clearly strong enough to be primary gameplan, it's plenty good as a backup.

I'm a bit confused by your statement that you're not sold on it. Sure it can be bounced/negated. That still makes it tenfold more resilient than the pingers, which are vulnerable to those same cards in addition to blockers, burn, and artifact destruction.

[serracollector]

If u add in amulet of Vigor, all the lands u pull out with Simulcram come into play untapped.  This way you could filter out all ur lands, and draw your deck, which should def lead to the win.

[waffles]

Why is having the redundancy not a good thing? Typically in terms of disruptablitity, it would make it resistant against cap effects. I am not totally sold on blightsteel since he can be bounced or negated.

Redundancy is bad because by definition it means a card is unnecessary. I realize this can easily come across as too nitpicky, but if you have a Mox Monkey in play, a second copy in hand is technically redundant until the first one eats a Swords/Bolt/etc.

The big question is whether your stuff will be removed enough for the extra copies to be relevant more often than redundant (or if the card is so critically important that it's worth it wasting space to the dead copy). Welders fall into the former category and Alarms fall into the latter. Extra pingers will almost never fulfill either requirement. People will almost always nuke welders over your pingers, and BSC clearly strong enough to be primary gameplan, it's plenty good as a backup.

I'm a bit confused by your statement that you're not sold on it. Sure it can be bounced/negated. That still makes it tenfold more resilient than the pingers, which are vulnerable to those same cards in addition to blockers, burn, and artifact destruction.

Ahh i see, extra copies only potentally have increased value in very specific and conditional states. What i mean is that under welder/alarm a pinger has substantially more value than BSC. As, the pingers cant be really bounced or negated as easily as BSC, since you can keep responding till the cows come home. I do recognize the high value of BSC when not under the welder/alarm state, however shouldn't the main focus be on finding and resolving and protecting the combo?. My inclination to a "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed a head" type of mentality maybe hindering my ablity to see the value of this in context.

[Delha]

Ahh i see, extra copies only potentally have increased value in very specific and conditional states. What i mean is that under welder/alarm a pinger has substantially more value than BSC. As, the pingers cant be really bounced or negated as easily as BSC, since you can keep responding till the cows come home. I do recognize the high value of BSC when not under the welder/alarm state, however shouldn't the main focus be on finding and resolving and protecting the combo?. My inclination to a "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed a head" type of mentality maybe hindering my ablity to see the value of this in context.

I think you're forgetting the part where I pointed out that people just kill your welder instead of your pinger. It's the smarter target:

• Alarm + Welder + Myr = infinite damage.
• Alarm + Welder = infinite welds.
• Alarm + Myr = 2 damage.

Also, I'm not sure where you got the idea that you can respond indefinitely. Assuming your opponent understands the stack at all, he/she will wait until you activate Welder, then kill it in response (meaning welder is tapped and cannot respond further).

[bluemage55]

Sounds like we're headed back towards Slaver, heh. Not that I'm complaining, mind.

For a less control-oriented route, it seems like the deck could be sped up by the inclusion of Bazaar.

[credmond]

Sounds like we're headed back towards Slaver, heh. Not that I'm complaining, mind.

For a less control-oriented route, it seems like the deck could be sped up by the inclusion of Bazaar.

It's also possible to go the spheres + shops+ tombs + magus of the moon route. Jens naturally gets you around spheres. Nothing protects an infi slaver combo like a wall of spheres.

[Bill Copes]

Sounds like we're headed back towards Slaver, heh. Not that I'm complaining, mind.

For a less control-oriented route, it seems like the deck could be sped up by the inclusion of Bazaar.

It's also possible to go the spheres + shops+ tombs + magus of the moon route. Jens naturally gets you around spheres. Nothing protects an infi slaver combo like a wall of spheres.

True both points.  Mono-red bazaar would be faster, but you might lose a touch of resilience and blue brokenness.  The only problem I see with spheres is casting Intruder Alarm underneath them.  It could be problematic when you have more than 2 in play.

[waffles]

Ahh i see, extra copies only potentally have increased value in very specific and conditional states. What i mean is that under welder/alarm a pinger has substantially more value than BSC. As, the pingers cant be really bounced or negated as easily as BSC, since you can keep responding till the cows come home. I do recognize the high value of BSC when not under the welder/alarm state, however shouldn't the main focus be on finding and resolving and protecting the combo?. My inclination to a "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed a head" type of mentality maybe hindering my ability to see the value of this in context.

I think you're forgetting the part where I pointed out that people just kill your welder instead of your pinger. It's the smarter target:

• Alarm + Welder + Myr = infinite damage.
• Alarm + Welder = infinite welds.
• Alarm + Myr = 2 damage.

Also, I'm not sure where you got the idea that you can respond indefinitely. Assuming your opponent understands the stack at all, he/she will wait until you activate Welder, then kill it in response (meaning welder is tapped and cannot respond further).

I did miss that detail. Thank you for your patient explanation, i will try to pay attention to the finer details more.

Sounds like we're headed back towards Slaver, heh. Not that I'm complaining, mind.

For a less control-oriented route, it seems like the deck could be sped up by the inclusion of Bazaar.

It's also possible to go the spheres + shops+ tombs + magus of the moon route. Jens naturally gets you around spheres. Nothing protects an infi slaver combo like a wall of spheres.

True both points.  Mono-red bazaar would be faster, but you might lose a touch of resilience and blue brokenness.  The only problem I see with spheres is casting Intruder Alarm underneath them.  It could be problematic when you have more than 2 in play.

Would metalworker/Millikin help with casting under the spheres?