Aaron Forsythe currently doing AMA 3/7 11aEST + New AMA from Finkel

[jtwilkins]

Here is the link to Forsythe's AMA he posted it an hour ago and hasn't started answering questions yet.
http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/qlrhn/ama_with_aaron_forsythe_of_wizards_of_the_coast/

Finkel did an AMA yesterday. Not much info really but he saved a homeless man on the way to do the AMA.
http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/qko5f/ama_with_jon_finkel/

[Nefarias]

Dredge is pretty abominable. it turns the game into something unrecognizable.

[DubDub]

Question: Have you ever considered releasing a modern "stimulus" product, that will be seperate from standard but help us newer magic players play with cards like ravnica shocklands, goyfs and such?

Yes, we've talked about it. We want to make some of those cards more readily available, although I can't release any actual information about it at this time. We are aware of the high demand for good Modern cards.

Emphasis mine.

/Thx guys!!!

[jtwilkins]

Here was my Q & A about the reserved list.

A) How does Wizard plan on keeping Legacy & Vintage from becoming extinct in the future?
B) Does the policy not lead to a future a secondary market full of high quality counterfeit cards?
C) It is known that upper-management made the final decision to keep the reserved list and close the loophole. What can the player base do to get this decision reversed and the list abolished. We saw a change after the player base revolted to ratings can we do the same for the reserved list?

[–]mtgaaronDirector of R&D, M:TG 30 points 11 hours ago

A) Two ways, most likely. One, we'll keep supporting them at the level we do now. At the very least, the sizes of those communities will stay the same as they are now, and as more sets are released, more decks made up mostly of newer cards (like Affinity) will let more people in. Two, I imagine Magic Online will someday have vibrant Vintage and Legacy communities. We can "print" whatever we want on there.
B) I hope not.
C) Nothing, really. It's not like it was decided merely as a matter of opinion. Someone made a promise a long time ago, and as much as I personally wish it wasn't so, we have to stick with it. I understand the demand is there, but we're not going to open ourselves up to ill will or worse by reneging.

[jtwilkins]

Ill fish though for other relevant questions.

Giant Question 1
Regarding Modern and Legacy - but particularly Modern - the company line is "We do not acknowledge after market pricing" and that "Magic is not an investment." I'm fine with both of these concepts, but every action you all take is quite the opposite in regards to both of those things. Why didn't you all rush to, at least in the EDH/Command Precons, print the Ravnica duals? Why isn't Dark Confidant, Goyf, Vendilion Clique, etc available readily?
Why create an entirely new format and then proceed to not make staples available to people prior to an entire PTQ season?

Giant Question 2 You all have just created a ranking system for which you became both a champion and PR mouth. You did an admirable job. That aside, the system which is very obviously founded on the idea of leveling up and staying at said levels completely missed the boat on why levels like that work in various capacities. If you're going to treat participation and such in competitive play as an RPG, you're supposed to get rewards when you level up.
Sure, some obscenely small number of people participated in MPR, but I don't walk around telling people I'm a Wizard of any level as that's a little bit beyond dumb. What's in this system for people who don't ever qualify for big events on Planeswalker Points? Just a level and a name?
permalinkreportreply

[–]mtgaaronDirector of R&D, M:TG 43 points 11 hours ago
100% SURE. YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST PEOPLE.
1) Magic is a collectible. We know that. From the reprint policy website: "The Magic trading card game has tremendous appeal as both a game and a collectible." That means we have to be deliberate with reprinting cards. Should the right product for those cards come around, we will reprint some of them. The demand for Modern cards has not gone unnoticed, so please bear with us. Our timelines are not exactly short.
2) We know the system needs more robustness (is that a word?), and more is coming. We're going to be trying out various levels of incentives and/or rewards and see what sticks. Expect some changes/augmentations to Planeswalker Points later this year.

Q)How much does R&D consider rarer formats, like vintage, when designing sets? Did anyone go "oh yeah, Slash Panther's going to be amazing in T1"?

A) Not much. Sometimes a card like Lodestone Golem is made with Vintage in mind, but we can't ever really predict things like Slash Panther. Slash Panther was made just to be a Phyrexian Lightning Elemental.

Q) Is there any sort of plans to bring the Vintage format to Magic Online? I love the format so much and would love more players having access to it.
A) It's a hot topic here. We're (relatively) sure we want it to happen, although plans aren't in place yet.

[Royal Ass.]

C) Nothing, really. It's not like it was decided merely as a matter of opinion. Someone made a promise a long time ago, and as much as I personally wish it wasn't so, we have to stick with it. I understand the demand is there, but we're not going to open ourselves up to ill will or worse by reneging.

[/quote]

This still doesn't explain why they got rid of the promo card exception which allowed them to reprint reserved list cards in FTV and Judge Foils etc.  That to me is the big mystery.

[Diakonov]

I believe the prevailing theory is that Hasbro managers from higher up became aware of the loophole and wanted it closed to avoid potential legal issues.

[LotusHead]

I wish WOTC would let old (reserved list) cards get reprinted with new (hopefully awesome) art. Old card with old art is totally different than old card with new art. (imagine a Micky Mantle baseball card with CSI updated art. Old Micky Mantle cards would not lose value...).

[The Wolf]

Q) Is there any sort of plans to bring the Vintage format to Magic Online? I love the format so much and would love more players having access to it.
A) It's a hot topic here. We're (relatively) sure we want it to happen, although plans aren't in place yet.

Dear Wizards,
Please give me the opportunity to give you money
Sincerely,
The Wolf

[Norm4eva]

I wish WOTC would let old (reserved list) cards get reprinted with new (hopefully awesome) art. Old card with old art is totally different than old card with new art. (imagine a Micky Mantle baseball card with CSI updated art. Old Micky Mantle cards would not lose value...).

Right.  The example I used @ The Source was the reprint of the 1939 Superman #1.  The original remains as collectible as ever, and in fact if you were going to use on, you'd probably just as soon read the '79 redux than your frozen-in-carbonite '39.  I do not understand why Magic cards, with the game's long history and clearly solidified place in gaming history as an innovation, would be treated any differently.  Players would have their new-bordered dual lands printed in, like, a new Commander Set or what have you, and collectors would say "Well, that's cool, but this here is the original, kept safe by sharks with frickin' laser beams and little plastic sleeves."

[Will]

I wish WOTC would let old (reserved list) cards get reprinted with new (hopefully awesome) art. Old card with old art is totally different than old card with new art. (imagine a Micky Mantle baseball card with CSI updated art. Old Micky Mantle cards would not lose value...).

Right.  The example I used @ The Source was the reprint of the 1939 Superman #1.  The original remains as collectible as ever, and in fact if you were going to use on, you'd probably just as soon read the '79 redux than your frozen-in-carbonite '39.  I do not understand why Magic cards, with the game's long history and clearly solidified place in gaming history as an innovation, would be treated any differently.  Players would have their new-bordered dual lands printed in, like, a new Commander Set or what have you, and collectors would say "Well, that's cool, but this here is the original, kept safe by sharks with frickin' laser beams and little plastic sleeves."

What these two examples ignores is that a Black Lotus is only playable when it is from Unlimited, Beta, or Alpha.  You can read a Superman#1 and there is nothing to play iwth a Mickey Mantle card (That I know of).  However, people buy Power to play with.  Maybe I'm alone on this, but I think that the reason that Collector's Edition cards are significantly cheaper than Unlimited is that they aren't playablele in a tournament.  Sure the argument can be made that most Vintage tournaments are not sanctioned and therefore it isirrelevant, but if you think that by printing a new set of power that the old power (at least Unlimited) would not drop in price you are kidding yourself.  Alpha or Beta Loti might not drop as much due to collector value but most people who are buying Unlimited Power, myself included are doing that so that they could play in sanctioned Vintage events. 

By reprinting Power or the like in a new set you would drop the price of Unlimited Power most likely as it is currently the cheapest playable version of power that you can get while the price of Alpha/Beta Power remains relatively stable.  Most people don't go from no Power to Beta Power and so by printing new power you would cut the cost, but would also hurt those people such as myself trying to get their first set of Power which I don't think is the intention.  I understand the difficulties associated with getting Power, as I've been trying to do so for a full year now, but it's attainable nonetheless.

[The Wolf]

Yeah, not to bash Norm4eva here, but thats totally incorrect.  Alpha and Beta may be at the level of Superman One, but the print runs on the sets following that are much easier to get.  Alpha BOP - 300  Revisied BOP - 3.99.  This card has been reprited to death with new art and everything, and the revised version are worth nothing. 

[DubDub]

By reprinting Power or the like in a new set you would drop the price of Unlimited Power most likely as it is currently the cheapest playable version of power that you can get while the price of Alpha/Beta Power remains relatively stable.  Most people don't go from no Power to Beta Power and so by printing new power you would cut the cost, but would also hurt those people such as myself trying to get their first set of Power which I don't think is the intention.  I understand the difficulties associated with getting Power, as I've been trying to do so for a full year now, but it's attainable nonetheless.

Can we expand upon this please?  Is it safe to assume that you have some UNL power now, and that lowering the value of the power you already have is the 'hurt' to which you refer?  Does that really outweigh the benefits to you of a reprint?

Pros of no reprint
Currently owned cards retain their monetary value.
You don't look/feel foolish for overpaying for power now readily available.

Pros of reprint
Remaining power needed to play sanctioned tournaments now more reasonably priced.  (Whether reprints or devalued UNL, by your own statement.)
Consequently, more Vintage players.
Consequently, more and more frequent sanctioned Vintage tournaments.
Possibility of large scale support, like a single GP per year.

If the 'loss of value' in cards you already own is more important to you than the opportunity for a revitalized Vintage format then we are drastically different.

I have 7/9 Power, plus UNL Time Vault and other old/valuable/reserved-list cards.  It would be unfortunate if looking back in ~5 years' time I 'overpaid' for them.  However, they will continue to hold sentimental value to me even in the face of a reprint.  I won't be unhappy with a reprint, because I'll have more and better opponents to play against more frequently.  I won't have to cash out of UNL power to downgrade to reprints just to recapture some of my investment.  If one isn't in the position to say the same, then one may want to reconsider investing in Magic cards in the first place.  Playing Vintage is not some vital need, it is a luxury hobby.  But it could just be a hobby, no luxury involved.  If one would retort that I'm lucky to be in the economic position I'm in, and to be so cavalier with the value of my/others possessions, that's sort of my point, I'm lucky to be able to afford Power.  Wouldn't, in terms of actually playing Vintage, against opponents, in sanctioned matches and matches potentially at the GP level, it be better if there wasn't a massive economic barrier to owning Power?

Also, saying that it's 'attainable' is missing the point.  Sure, it's attainable if you have $X,000 to spend on it (and a reliable/trusted source).  But that's a pretty huge barrier to place in front of someone, and it appears to be the barrier WotC claims is preventing Vintage from being better supported.  If the format can't support a single GP per year then it's a pretty big stretch to call the primary resources that distinguish that format 'attainable.'

P.S.  The economic barrier was touted again by Forsythe as the reason WotC will not support Vintage more broadly.  I have argued elsewhere that they have an incentive to let Vintage wither (such as it has done/is doing, which is open for debate) because a strong/affordable Vintage (and for that matter, moreso Legacy) would compete with the more profitable rotating formats.  But they haven't come out and said admitted that, so I'm willing to put it aside and argue against the reserved list, which guarantees the continuing economic barrier, for now.

@The Wolf: Noble Hierarch also got printed.  For the purposes of playing with a green one-drop accelerant REV Birds used to do just fine.  Now it sees negligible play across formats.  ALPHA/BETA Birds weren't played with very often pre-Hierarch anyway.

[Norm4eva]

I wish WOTC would let old (reserved list) cards get reprinted with new (hopefully awesome) art. Old card with old art is totally different than old card with new art. (imagine a Micky Mantle baseball card with CSI updated art. Old Micky Mantle cards would not lose value...).

Right.  The example I used @ The Source was the reprint of the 1939 Superman #1.  The original remains as collectible as ever, and in fact if you were going to use on, you'd probably just as soon read the '79 redux than your frozen-in-carbonite '39.  I do not understand why Magic cards, with the game's long history and clearly solidified place in gaming history as an innovation, would be treated any differently.  Players would have their new-bordered dual lands printed in, like, a new Commander Set or what have you, and collectors would say "Well, that's cool, but this here is the original, kept safe by sharks with frickin' laser beams and little plastic sleeves."

What these two examples ignores is that a Black Lotus is only playable when it is from Unlimited, Beta, or Alpha.  You can read a Superman#1 and there is nothing to play iwth a Mickey Mantle card (That I know of).  However, people buy Power to play with.  Maybe I'm alone on this, but I think that the reason that Collector's Edition cards are significantly cheaper than Unlimited is that they aren't playablele in a tournament.  Sure the argument can be made that most Vintage tournaments are not sanctioned and therefore it isirrelevant, but if you think that by printing a new set of power that the old power (at least Unlimited) would not drop in price you are kidding yourself.  Alpha or Beta Loti might not drop as much due to collector value but most people who are buying Unlimited Power, myself included are doing that so that they could play in sanctioned Vintage events. 

By reprinting Power or the like in a new set you would drop the price of Unlimited Power most likely as it is currently the cheapest playable version of power that you can get while the price of Alpha/Beta Power remains relatively stable.  Most people don't go from no Power to Beta Power and so by printing new power you would cut the cost, but would also hurt those people such as myself trying to get their first set of Power which I don't think is the intention.  I understand the difficulties associated with getting Power, as I've been trying to do so for a full year now, but it's attainable nonetheless.

That's what I'm saying, though: people don't buy Superman #1 to read, because if you're buying that particular issue is it almost entirely motivated by owning it, not using it.  Imagine the sheer horror of a collection community as someone recants the story of the KFC that got spilled all over the Superman comic they forgot to re-wrap after reading it.  There may be the occasional daffy bastard that believes the books were printed to be read, but I guarantee that most people aren't buying Action Comics #1 at $250,000.00 - $1,000,000.00 US to sit around and read them all day.  No fucking way.  That's not what a collector does; a collector collects.

So yes, you're right inasmuch as people also buy Magic cards to use them, but that's only because they have to.  That's half my point - the market is pressured by those who play and those who don't.  If a reprint happened and Revised tanked, I can almost guarantee that it would be because ABU went waaay up in value, because the only people who'd have a real reason to own any would only be those people who wanted to out of the game's collectable status.  People who actually wanted to play, could, and could do so with actual Magic cards instead of proxied Plains.

Christ, I mean, at the end of the day I don't want to be the guy who derailed this perfectly good thread and turned it into Yet Another Reprint Thread, but I don't even have to be talking about Power or duals here.  There are like four non-rotating formats driving the price of cards - Vintage, Legacy, Commander and Modern - and even with Modern's strong banned list, there is a lot of overlap these days.  At some point, keeping all these formats remotely appealing or accessible is going to require some kind of regular, intentional, numerous reprinting of staples - either that, or keep the power creep coming with new Standard toys that trickle down into the old formats, pushing them ever-closer to the turn 1 coin flips that people ignorantly fear.

[credmond]

By reprinting Power or the like in a new set you would drop the price of Unlimited Power most likely as it is currently the cheapest playable version of power that you can get while the price of Alpha/Beta Power remains relatively stable.  Most people don't go from no Power to Beta Power and so by printing new power you would cut the cost, but would also hurt those people such as myself trying to get their first set of Power which I don't think is the intention.  I understand the difficulties associated with getting Power, as I've been trying to do so for a full year now, but it's attainable nonetheless.

Can we expand upon this please?  Is it safe to assume that you have some UNL power now, and that lowering the value of the power you already have is the 'hurt' to which you refer?  Does that really outweigh the benefits to you of a reprint?

Pros of no reprint
Currently owned cards retain their monetary value.
You don't look/feel foolish for overpaying for power now readily available.

Pros of reprint
Remaining power needed to play sanctioned tournaments now more reasonably priced.  (Whether reprints or devalued UNL, by your own statement.)
Consequently, more Vintage players.
Consequently, more and more frequent sanctioned Vintage tournaments.
Possibility of large scale support, like a single GP per year.

If the 'loss of value' in cards you already own is more important to you than the opportunity for a revitalized Vintage format then we are drastically different.

I have 7/9 Power, plus UNL Time Vault and other old/valuable/reserved-list cards.  It would be unfortunate if looking back in ~5 years' time I 'overpaid' for them.  However, they will continue to hold sentimental value to me even in the face of a reprint.  I won't be unhappy with a reprint, because I'll have more and better opponents to play against more frequently.  I won't have to cash out of UNL power to downgrade to reprints just to recapture some of my investment.  If one isn't in the position to say the same, then one may want to reconsider investing in Magic cards in the first place.  Playing Vintage is not some vital need, it is a luxury hobby.  But it could just be a hobby, no luxury involved.  If one would retort that I'm lucky to be in the economic position I'm in, and to be so cavalier with the value of my/others possessions, that's sort of my point, I'm lucky to be able to afford Power.  Wouldn't, in terms of actually playing Vintage, against opponents, in sanctioned matches and matches potentially at the GP level, it be better if there wasn't a massive economic barrier to owning Power?

Also, saying that it's 'attainable' is missing the point.  Sure, it's attainable if you have $X,000 to spend on it (and a reliable/trusted source).  But that's a pretty huge barrier to place in front of someone, and it appears to be the barrier WotC claims is preventing Vintage from being better supported.  If the format can't support a single GP per year then it's a pretty big stretch to call the primary resources that distinguish that format 'attainable.'

P.S.  The economic barrier was touted again by Forsythe as the reason WotC will not support Vintage more broadly.  I have argued elsewhere that they have an incentive to let Vintage wither (such as it has done/is doing, which is open for debate) because a strong/affordable Vintage (and for that matter, moreso Legacy) would compete with the more profitable rotating formats.  But they haven't come out and said admitted that, so I'm willing to put it aside and argue against the reserved list, which guarantees the continuing economic barrier, for now.

@The Wolf: Noble Hierarch also got printed.  For the purposes of playing with a green one-drop accelerant REV Birds used to do just fine.  Now it sees negligible play across formats.  ALPHA/BETA Birds weren't played with very often pre-Hierarch anyway.

Nah, you want legalized proxies that are made by Wizards and controlled by Wizards. They need to make them freely availiable (by mail order for example or by providing at sanctioned tourneys) and decidedly non-pimp (e.g. words on crappy looking background - no art - negative appeal) and only to be used for the tourneys they sanction. This in effect is just legalizing proxies for sanctioned tournaments but also allows Wizards to control their look both for game and collectibility purposes (so they can ensure that they are totally non-collectible). It also allows them to decide their non-use at any time and make illegal any modding of the card.

This works because a real Mox will always hold far more actual value than a "slug" freely provided by Wizards.

The problem with reprints is putting them in packs or through FTV:Power will make them chase collectibles and then they will compete as collectibles with prior collectibles.


With regards to dual lands, they should just reprint them. It's a no-brainer. It seems more like bureaucratic thinking is holding that up.

[DubDub]

Nah, you want legalized proxies that are made by Wizards and controlled by Wizards. They need to make them freely availiable (by mail order for example or by providing at sanctioned tourneys) and decidedly non-pimp (e.g. words on crappy looking background - no art - negative appeal) and only to be used for the tourneys they sanction. This in effect is just legalizing proxies for sanctioned tournaments but also allows Wizards to control their look both for game and collectibility purposes (so they can ensure that they are totally non-collectible). It also allows them to decide their non-use at any time and make illegal any modding of the card.

This works because a real Mox will always hold far more actual value than a "slug" freely provided by Wizards.

The problem with reprints is putting them in packs or through FTV:Power will make them chase collectibles and then they will compete as collectibles with prior collectibles.


With regards to dual lands, they should just reprint them. It's a no-brainer. It seems more like bureaucratic thinking is holding that up.

I would frame it this way: what's the problem?  The economic barrier to entry.  What's the solution to that problem?  Reprints making Power (etc.) available much more cheaply.

If a FTV:Valuable release wouldn't suffice to make Power available much more cheaply, because the print run isn't large enough, then you're right that I wouldn't want that.

I don't in the abstract want pretty or ugly reprints, the most important thing, in my opinion, is the size of the reprint print run.  At the same time, a FTV:Valuable reprint would provide a new supply of Power greater than 0, so I am for that.  I'm just more for a larger reprint.  And no, I am not for a reprint that's marked as a class of cards that can be made illegal at any time.  Print the cards as real cards.

[Diakonov]

I have argued elsewhere that they have an incentive to let Vintage wither (such as it has done/is doing, which is open for debate) because a strong/affordable Vintage (and for that matter, moreso Legacy) would compete with the more profitable rotating formats. 

This is the most relevant part of the discussion.

[credmond]

Nah, you want legalized proxies that are made by Wizards and controlled by Wizards. They need to make them freely availiable (by mail order for example or by providing at sanctioned tourneys) and decidedly non-pimp (e.g. words on crappy looking background - no art - negative appeal) and only to be used for the tourneys they sanction. This in effect is just legalizing proxies for sanctioned tournaments but also allows Wizards to control their look both for game and collectibility purposes (so they can ensure that they are totally non-collectible). It also allows them to decide their non-use at any time and make illegal any modding of the card.

This works because a real Mox will always hold far more actual value than a "slug" freely provided by Wizards.

The problem with reprints is putting them in packs or through FTV:Power will make them chase collectibles and then they will compete as collectibles with prior collectibles.


With regards to dual lands, they should just reprint them. It's a no-brainer. It seems more like bureaucratic thinking is holding that up.

I would frame it this way: what's the problem?  The economic barrier to entry.  What's the solution to that problem?  Reprints making Power (etc.) available much more cheaply.

If a FTV:Valuable release wouldn't suffice to make Power available much more cheaply, because the print run isn't large enough, then you're right that I wouldn't want that.

I don't in the abstract want pretty or ugly reprints, the most important thing, in my opinion, is the size of the reprint print run.  At the same time, a FTV:Valuable reprint would provide a new supply of Power greater than 0, so I am for that.  I'm just more for a larger reprint.  And no, I am not for a reprint that's marked as a class of cards that can be made illegal at any time.  Print the cards as real cards.

What you are suggesting isn't feasible for them to do as a company even though it might make sense to Vintage players. They would alienate their collector base.

What I am suggesting is feasible for them to do as a company. Unlimited number of proxies/slugs that don't compete with the collectibles.

I am showing you a way that you can get players playing Vintage and collectors happy and you are complaining that it isn't good enough because you want "real cards"??

[TheShop]

I have argued elsewhere that they have an incentive to let Vintage wither (such as it has done/is doing, which is open for debate) because a strong/affordable Vintage (and for that matter, moreso Legacy) would compete with the more profitable rotating formats. 

This is the most relevant part of the discussion.

Hence the fall of legacy, promotion of modern.

To some of the other debates above, I can only speak for my personal belongings- I would rather have people to play with and wizards woefully deflate my collection.  "investing" in trading cards is so laughable from a prudence perspective- you have extremely high concentrated risks and the rewards are pathetic.  Cards like mana drain, force of will, oath, duals, unlimited power, workshops...etc havent kept pace with market returns over the past decade- unlimited moxes havent even kept pace with inflation.  The only guy with the potential to really get a solid return is the guy who opened boxes and kept the cards prior to 1997.  That phonemenon is not investment, but luck as game popularity was not predictible.  Even if you were consistently winning (beating markets over 10+ years...which hasnt happened) by trying to hold cards for value: you would need to own such a huge amount of cards to really make your returns pay that this isn't feasible.  I don't buy the "investment grade" cards trap and you shouldn't either.  Most cards returns will not beat treasury yields over a decade...and it isn't as if you will pick all the winners along the way either...investment is admirable and should be undertaken by everyone.  This is clearly speculation, and it has not been paying for the vast majority of card owners who attempt to hold.  Wizards is blatantly catering to speculators over players...there is no sympathy for speculators in financial markets, why should we all be forced to participate in Wizard's card subsidy policy?  If you want to stop playing around and really invest- liquidate the stupid cards and buy a practical portfolio of assets.

[Ten-Ten]

I have argued elsewhere that they have an incentive to let Vintage wither (such as it has done/is doing, which is open for debate) because a strong/affordable Vintage (and for that matter, moreso Legacy) would compete with the more profitable rotating formats. 

This is the most relevant part of the discussion.

Hence the fall of legacy, promotion of modern.

To some of the other debates above, I can only speak for my personal belongings- I would rather have people to play with and wizards woefully deflate my collection.  "investing" in trading cards is so laughable from a prudence perspective- you have extremely high concentrated risks and the rewards are pathetic.  Cards like mana drain, force of will, oath, duals, unlimited power, workshops...etc havent kept pace with market returns over the past decade- unlimited moxes havent even kept pace with inflation.  The only guy with the potential to really get a solid return is the guy who opened boxes and kept the cards prior to 1997.  That phonemenon is not investment, but luck as game popularity was not predictible.  Even if you were consistently winning (beating markets over 10+ years...which hasnt happened) by trying to hold cards for value: you would need to own such a huge amount of cards to really make your returns pay that this isn't feasible.  I don't buy the "investment grade" cards trap and you shouldn't either.  Most cards returns will not beat treasury yields over a decade...and it isn't as if you will pick all the winners along the way either...investment is admirable and should be undertaken by everyone.  This is clearly speculation, and it has not been paying for the vast majority of card owners who attempt to hold.  Wizards is blatantly catering to speculators over players...there is no sympathy for speculators in financial markets, why should we all be forced to participate in Wizard's card subsidy policy?  If you want to stop playing around and really invest- liquidate the stupid cards and buy a practical portfolio of assets.

wow, well said.

[credmond]

I have argued elsewhere that they have an incentive to let Vintage wither (such as it has done/is doing, which is open for debate) because a strong/affordable Vintage (and for that matter, moreso Legacy) would compete with the more profitable rotating formats. 

This is the most relevant part of the discussion.

Hence the fall of legacy, promotion of modern.

To some of the other debates above, I can only speak for my personal belongings- I would rather have people to play with and wizards woefully deflate my collection.  "investing" in trading cards is so laughable from a prudence perspective- you have extremely high concentrated risks and the rewards are pathetic.  Cards like mana drain, force of will, oath, duals, unlimited power, workshops...etc havent kept pace with market returns over the past decade- unlimited moxes havent even kept pace with inflation.  The only guy with the potential to really get a solid return is the guy who opened boxes and kept the cards prior to 1997.  That phonemenon is not investment, but luck as game popularity was not predictible.  Even if you were consistently winning (beating markets over 10+ years...which hasnt happened) by trying to hold cards for value: you would need to own such a huge amount of cards to really make your returns pay that this isn't feasible.  I don't buy the "investment grade" cards trap and you shouldn't either.  Most cards returns will not beat treasury yields over a decade...and it isn't as if you will pick all the winners along the way either...investment is admirable and should be undertaken by everyone.  This is clearly speculation, and it has not been paying for the vast majority of card owners who attempt to hold.  Wizards is blatantly catering to speculators over players...there is no sympathy for speculators in financial markets, why should we all be forced to participate in Wizard's card subsidy policy?  If you want to stop playing around and really invest- liquidate the stupid cards and buy a practical portfolio of assets.

You are saying something that is reasonable from a player perspective but not from Wizard's perspective or a realistic perspective.

Magic is a *collectible* card game, not just a card game.

[BaronSengir]

After listening to a PodCast Steve Menendian did when he mentioned that he was invited to Wizards headquarters he kind of hinted at the fact that it isn't that Wizards wants Legacy and Vintage to wither it's just that they are in a tough situation right now. A lot of the current people at Wizards, from what I gathered, seem to not like the reserve list and would love to reprint power, dual lands, mana drain, force of will, etc. but more or less have their hands tied from decisions the company made in the past.

Regardless of what Wizards does people will be mad. Either it will be the folks that don't have power that will be mad if Wizards never reprints them, or it will be the folks that have power and spent a lot of money on them that get mad if Wizards does reprint them. Nevertheless, I honestly would be fine if they reprinted the cards, and this is coming from someone who has power, drains, plays both Legacy and Vintage, etc. but I know it probably won't happen, there just isn't enough justification to convince the decision makers at Wizards to go through with it.

On a side note, I'm sure if they put the P9 in a From the Vaults type of set demand will cause it to skyrocket in price to hundreds maybe even a $1000, but that is still better than the $4000-$5000 Unlimited P9 will cost you right now. I think if they go back on their word and just reprint the cards, few people will blame them; I mean no one thought this game would explode the way it did and no one could have predicted the prices of cards today 20 years ago.

[TheShop]

Collecting and investing are not the same thing. Collecting is entertainment, investing is a life plan.  Cards for your retirement is a shitty life plan.

[The Wolf]

Lets look at the 2 options of what could happen with massive reprints to reduce value all vintage/legacy staples.
Given that people have a limited amount of time to put towards magic.
1) Massive influx of new players into old formats.  Standard becomes much less popular and new cards become worth a lot less.  Drafting becomes less popular because it gets more expensive.  People draft less and a new equilibrium is reached that has less drafters and less standard which means wizards gets less money and the game starts to decline.  They do awful stuff to our old formats to drive people back to standard.  Bad for us and bad for Wizards and bad for collectors
2) Prices go down but since not many people wants to play vintage/legacy who don't already, tournament attendance only goes up a little.  Cards are cheaper for the people who do play, and all the collectability of the game is gone.  Wizards gains nothing and loses a major part of the appeal and history of the game.  Bad for Wizards and bad for collectors
Option 3
3) Wizards spends a lot of time doing small controlled reprints to slowly drive the price the cards down.  Collectability of the game isn’t ruined, but is compromised.  Wizards has to invest resources into getting the balance correct for a very small number of its customers.  Bad for wizards and bad for collectors

Can anyone show me a situation that is good for wizards to reprint this stuff? I’m actually asking cause to me it’s a no brainer to not reprint stuff.  The only situation I could see was as a last cash grab if the game was dying.  

Edit: Based on the fact that most of wizards money comes from drafting so they need players in Type 2

[BaronSengir]

Related to investing in the cards I agree it's not the best thing to do with your money right now, but I can see it working in your favor down the line if you can find a NM+/Mint Alpha/Beta P9 like a Black Lotus for $2000 up to $4000 and you get it graded and it comes back a 9.0/9.5.

[TheShop]

Do you think that this can be done enough times to generate a substantial cash flow for retirement...I don't.  It sounds less like investing and more like going into business as a card store.

[BaronSengir]

Do you think that this can be done enough times to generate a substantial cash flow for retirement...I don't.  It sounds less like investing and more like going into business as a card store.

Right you are. I never meant it as a means to retiring or getting rich quick.

[credmond]

Why do reprints when you can print and sanction proxies and control their usage and functionally achieve all the same goals while not radically pissing off the collectors?

[DubDub]

I am showing you a way that you can get players playing Vintage and collectors happy and you are complaining that it isn't good enough because you want "real cards"??

"Real" cards only in the sense that I wouldn't want cards (slugs?) that can be made illegal at any time, or after a set time, etc.  I mean, if we're going to talk about cards being made illegal at any time we should start with Alpha (corners are different), and Starter/Portal (not originally legal), right?  Turning Vintage into a pseudo-rotating format by selling temporary time-limited reprints of Power would be an asshole move by WotC, in my opinion.  Maybe that's more palatable to them, and I guess at the end of the day if the goal is to get more players into Vintage it would help to some extent, so I'd have to get over it.  But it would be pretty damn clear (clearer) at that point that WotC's concern was never/is not about the economic barrier to entry, but about their ability to capitalize fully on Vintage/Legacy/Eternal.

I would go so far as to say that cards that can be made illegal at any time, or after a set time, would be a violation of Magic as a 'Collectible Card Game' (sort of, in reverse to the violation it would be to reprint 'real' cards), because such cards have intentionally zero collectible value (so as to not compete with the 'true' collectibles).  (No, this violation claim doesn't extend to cards rotating out of Standard, since everything except banned cards is legal somewhere.)

@The Wolf
When they start saying admitting that the problem is their bottom line because Eternal > Rotating/Draft, and not some nebulous 'some guy made a promise once, promises are important,' I'll start expending mental energy figuring out that problem.  In the meantime, I'll just point out that, y'know, it's the full time job for a lot of people to make Limited/Block/Standard interesting.  And they would still be the ones making decisions on what formats to support by holding GPs/PTs/PTQ seasons.  If they really can't compete with Eternal formats skewed heavily toward cards fifteen or more years old... then maybe they should just pack it up now?

Why do reprints when you can print and sanction proxies and control their usage and functionally achieve all the same goals while not radically pissing off the collectors?

I don't understand the distinction you're drawing here.  I view 'reprints' as a very broad term encompassing any way Wizards prints the cards.  As long as it says "Mox Jet" and I can legally play with it in a sanctioned tournament as a "Mox Jet" I don't care too much what it looks like/whether collectors want to collect it/whether it's called a reprint or a sanctioned proxy/etc.

Obviously from a player perspective I would appreciate some effort on the aesthetic front, and aesthetic value would also go a long way toward mitigating the stigma of playing with a reprint/sanctioned-proxy, etc.  As long as it gets more players into sanctioned Vintage it'll be more or less AOK in my book.

[credmond]

I am showing you a way that you can get players playing Vintage and collectors happy and you are complaining that it isn't good enough because you want "real cards"??

"Real" cards only in the sense that I wouldn't want cards (slugs?) that can be made illegal at any time, or after a set time, etc.  I mean, if we're going to talk about cards being made illegal at any time we should start with Alpha (corners are different), and Starter/Portal (not originally legal), right?  Turning Vintage into a pseudo-rotating format by selling temporary time-limited reprints of Power would be an asshole move by WotC, in my opinion.  Maybe that's more palatable to them, and I guess at the end of the day if the goal is to get more players into Vintage it would help to some extent, so I'd have to get over it.  But it would be pretty damn clear (clearer) at that point that WotC's concern was never/is not about the economic barrier to entry, but about their ability to capitalize fully on Vintage/Legacy/Eternal.

I would go so far as to say that cards that can be made illegal at any time, or after a set time, would be a violation of Magic as a 'Collectible Card Game' (sort of, in reverse to the violation it would be to reprint 'real' cards), because such cards have intentionally zero collectible value (so as to not compete with the 'true' collectibles).  (No, this violation claim doesn't extend to cards rotating out of Standard, since everything except banned cards is legal somewhere.)

@The Wolf
When they start saying admitting that the problem is their bottom line because Eternal > Rotating/Draft, and not some nebulous 'some guy made a promise once, promises are important,' I'll start expending mental energy figuring out that problem.  In the meantime, I'll just point out that, y'know, it's the full time job for a lot of people to make Limited/Block/Standard interesting.  And they would still be the ones making decisions on what formats to support by holding GPs/PTs/PTQ seasons.  If they really can't compete with Eternal formats skewed heavily toward cards fifteen or more years old... then maybe they should just pack it up now?

Why do reprints when you can print and sanction proxies and control their usage and functionally achieve all the same goals while not radically pissing off the collectors?

I don't understand the distinction you're drawing here.  I view 'reprints' as a very broad term encompassing any way Wizards prints the cards.  As long as it says "Mox Jet" and I can legally play with it in a sanctioned tournament as a "Mox Jet" I don't care too much what it looks like/whether collectors want to collect it/whether it's called a reprint or a sanctioned proxy/etc.

Obviously from a player perspective I would appreciate some effort on the aesthetic front, and aesthetic value would also go a long way toward mitigating the stigma of playing with a reprint/sanctioned-proxy, etc.  As long as it gets more players into sanctioned Vintage it'll be more or less AOK in my book.

A proxy stands for the card in a particular context. You are saying this slug can stand for a mox jet in this sanctioned tourney at this time by us (Wizards).

Sanctioned proxies are the real solution here. Done well . . .

1) they will be freely available and thus totally remove any barrier to play
2) not depreciate or in other ways compete with the real cards they represent
3) provide a way for Wizards to actually promote, sanction, and control Vintage
4) boost the value of power cards as the new influx of players seek to pimp out their decks with real cards