GWB Beats

[bax]

Inkwell is still good, brothers and sisters.  With the advent of Blightsteel, people are leaning on targeted removal like Steel Sabotage and Swords to Plowshares over good ol' Diabolic Edict, Curfew, and Tariff.  The problem is, as I see it, that as long as Shops is still a thing, people will ALSO be packing Hurkyl's Recall, so you don't really blank alot of the matchups like you think you will. 

The reality is that in most cases Blightsteel is a combo of two cards (tinker + walk)...
Inkwell is inferior in every single possible way to blightsteel and is soo 2009 ...

[Guli]

Last day, in class, I was so bored, I dissected the deck on paper and came up with this list for those who prefer a pure GW list:

I decided that 16 lands + Karakas and 4 artifact acceleration will be enough.

4 wasteland
1 strip
2 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

Then I believe these are the staples of the deck:

4 Scryb Ranger
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage

The 3 offs:
3 Stony Silence
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares

Then the more heavier cards in my opinion:
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie
2 Scavenging Ooze

1 off's to complement the cards above in terms of 'slots'. For example Swords is 3x but with Maze of Ith you have 4 answers. And indirectly with Wayfarer you have a couple more slots to fight Tinker strategies. Teeg seems random but he does add up to the hate bears number wise.

1 Maze of Ith
1 Gaddock Teeg

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Porcelain Legionnaire
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap

[ilpeggiore]

@ maximum

inkwell is really slow and can be outraced. Colossus is countermove or GG in a turn.

@ Guli

im still waiting match ups.

and about the last list :

If you want wayfearer,  Ghost quarter is an auto inclusion.
If you want mox, im not sure about stony silence. ESG could be more usefull.
If you want scrybs, i want cards they work with : noble hierac, 4x ooze and wayfearer before mikaelus
Gaddock is too good for a 1x.
selkie isnt that bad but i'd preffer other cards.

4 wasteland
1 strip
2 ghost quarter
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 labyrinth
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Scryb Ranger
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stony Silence
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Mental Misstep
1 lftl
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 ooze
2 gaddock

[Guli]

I am not sure you guys realize how good Mikaeus is. Tarmogoyf is on the rise. Don't forget that!

[Blue Lotus]

We think the same as every other vintage player in the world:

http://morphling.de/search.php?type=3&app=10&sorting=DESC&search=Mikaeus%2C+the+Lunarch&sent=1

Anthem effects = no bueno

[Guli]

We think the same as every other vintage player in the world:

http://morphling.de/search.php?type=3&app=10&sorting=DESC&search=Mikaeus%2C+the+Lunarch&sent=1

Anthem effects = no bueno

And that says what? Nothing. The idea is fairly new, if people pick it up, good for them. If it doesn't get played, then their loss. I have always lived in the future for some reasons

[ilpeggiore]

so...

mikaelus costs 3.
yes i can play it as 1/1, but then (if i dont control a scryb) i should wait 1 more turn for an use.

You need to use him twice for a good protective effect ( piroclasm kills all your */1 critters even with a +1/+1 bonus). that means that its effect became relavant after 2 turns (unless you have the scryb).

Alone he sucks. With another creature it sucks... You need at least 3 creature on the battlefield or is effect is really slower than a beating tarmo.

playing such a creature means that you have less disruptive critters and you need scryb or mika is too slow to be played. So you have 7 un-locking creature more than other GW(b) variants.
The fact is : it works fine when you have ranger+mika+another creature. every turns your creatura take +2/+2 ( so in 2 turns mika wins you the game).
BUT turn 1 thalia, turn 2 ranger, turn 3 mika, turn 4 use it twice, turn 5 you win is slow nowaday and more important, its very fragile.

It works ? I dont know... my impression is NO WAY but still.... for the third time..... can you post your matchup stats ?

[boggyb]

Have you tried it? Like even once? Then what the heck're you even talking about? Go sleeve it up and play a few rounds and you'll see-- it speeds up your clock by a few turns, which is highly relevant, and puts them on their back foot and yada yada. Mikaeus does a lot. I mean I'm not sold that he's 100% necessary for the deck either, but the effect is certainly potent and it's a very worthy idea.

[ilpeggiore]

a lot of cards can speed up my clock.
  Still it cant speed up enough to an aggro-like clock (3-4th turn).

its a legend, it needs ranger, it does nothing alone, it doesnt instant-win, it doesnt help directly in any match up, it makes me goildfish turn 5 win....

And  i havent read these amazing results with the deck. all i know is he lost to ichorid.

So im waiting. If his results are better than mine with a straight GW version i ll test it. if they worst i'll save my time.

[Guli]

I lost to dredge? Who told you that

I frankly don't have the time to write full match ups right now. I would love too but it is not possible.

Mikaeus is my aggro killer plan, others use Tarmogoyf and SFM for example, and helps me versus other match ups clockwise. It also has the bonus it exiles bridges. The good thing is that it beats Tarmogoyf and SFM.

So in other words, I beat any aggro out there. I have too many bears they can handle, I got the evasion, the pro blue, the stp, the anti stp (MM), and the ranger/mika combo that "instantly" wins against aggro.

Mikaeus is also a card that capitalizes on the Workshop player when you take the upper hand after their initial pressure fades away. Also great to avoid chalice.

It is not just tap on my turn and untap. It is tap, untap, tap. Then again on their turn untap, tap. Then on my turn again, tap, untap, tap. That is a huge boost of counters, much much faster than Tarmo or SFM. And you are forgetting that those +1+1 counters go on creatures that DO something and not on LLanowar Elves. And this mechanic works with even 1 counter on Mikaeus.

[TheWhiteDragon]

@ bax & ilpeggiori & anyone else who thinks inkwell sucks,

I run one of my fish decks with main inkwell instead of BSC simply because the deck can easily handle BSC (as can opposing fish decks) but they can't typically handle inkwell (which is a beatstick vs fish - especially with a noble or two on board to make him 9/x on the attack).  i also tend to run inkwell as my sb bot of choice when facing a deck with heavy removal.

To say BSC is faster than inkwell, that is for sure the reason to play BSC in most decks...but to say BSC is better than inkwell in every way is flawed.

when your opponent has:

deglamer (not extremely common)
swords to plowshares
path to exile
sower of temptation (not extremely common)
leonin relic-warder
jace, the mind sculpter
chain of vapor
echoing truth
goblin welder
preacher (not extremely common)
duplicant
maze of ith
steel sabotage
control magic (not extremely common)
chaos warp (not extremely common)
stingscourger (not extremely common)
...and other cards

I'd much rather Inkwell.  hurkyll's and metamorph affect them equally, but when both are in hand inkwell is more castable and pitchable to Fow (and also viable with welder tricks).  So in decks where you can just counter every removal spell without resistance, then BSC is clearly better.  But when you don't feel confident that you can stop every removal spell as well as opposing counters, it pays to pack a bot with his own protection - especially when many of the cards i listed are quite common in many decks.

[TheShop]

To the draw engine discussion on the previous page- if you are willing to drop confidant for selkie and slow your draws down a turn, you might should consider augury adept also.  Personally, I would run bob or 4 more disruptive spells(leaning to disruption)...just a thought.

[TheWhiteDragon]

To the draw engine discussion on the previous page- if you are willing to drop confidant for selkie and slow your draws down a turn, you might should consider augury adept also.  Personally, I would run bob or 4 more disruptive spells(leaning to disruption)...just a thought.

The thing with selkie that makes it better than adept is
1) islandwalk - unblockable in 90% of matches
2) draws multiple cards a turn with exalted
3) no damage

Realistically you could turn 1 drop forest, noble - turn 2 drop land selkie (same turn bob would come down) - turn 3 drop noble or pridemage and swing unblockably to ancestral yourself every turn thereafter.  That's 3 cards with 0 pain the same turn you'ld draw 1 off bob...and then it only gets more obscene from there.

[Guli]

I think BoB is better too. Just because it can get down turn 1 with 5 artifact acceleration putting your opponent in a lost position if they don't do something quickly. Selkie on the other hand is more BRUTAL when it hits. But I have a feeling that the games were he would matter to seal the game, are a bit less than the games were he would be win more. BoB on the other hand feels different. Cheaper, more dangerous, can change the game course.

[Shax]

I think the GWBeats or GW critter decks have a good chance to make a serious impact on the Vintage scene with Thalia out and Cage. Guli has a pretty fine tuned list and I don't think the creature decks are going to get worse in Vintage any time soon. I like the idea of giving a Trygon Predator Exalted in some of these list.. it is a fantastic Maindeck or Sideboard card and combined with Pridemage gives you a hard to break artifact/enchantment destruction force. The only things that save people out of those kinds of holes are Y.Win, and thats already when they have lost all their base.

[Guli]

I wonder if GWub would be possible to add Trygon and BoB in the existing GW shell. The idea would be to fight Workshop and Oath with Trygon (and obviously the Pridemages) and the Confidant thing we already discussed in this thread. BoB is a good way to counter those attrition wars blue control is putting up.

Would it stretch things too much? Maybe with Birds of Paradise as addition mana acceleration plan with idea's to use it with ranger just like noble.

Example list without sb:

2 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
4 Scryb Ranger
3 Stony Silence
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Windswept Heath
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Trygon Predator
4 Dark Confidant
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
3 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Misty Rainforest

[Ten-Ten]

To the draw engine discussion on the previous page- if you are willing to drop confidant for selkie and slow your draws down a turn, you might should consider augury adept also.  Personally, I would run bob or 4 more disruptive spells(leaning to disruption)...just a thought.

The thing with selkie that makes it better than adept is
1) islandwalk - unblockable in 90% of matches
2) draws multiple cards a turn with exalted
3) no damage

Realistically you could turn 1 drop forest, noble - turn 2 drop land selkie (same turn bob would come down) - turn 3 drop noble or pridemage and swing unblockably to ancestral yourself every turn thereafter.  That's 3 cards with 0 pain the same turn you'ld draw 1 off bob...and then it only gets more obscene from there.

did you mean Bob?
'cuz adept gains you life.
selkie still better though.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Yeah, I meant bob on that last part....but 1 and 2 still make selkie better than adept...bob is probably better in shop matchups where there are no islands

[xouman]

Bob is better that selkie because you can play it before selkie... but is bob the best playable card in T1? I'd play noble, thalia, stony silence or cage before bob. So usually selkie is being casted at the same time as bob, no later.

Against shops selkie has not islandwalk and it's then worse than confidant, but the life loss in the MWS matchup could be important. In my current meta MUDs are playing precursor golem, and joined with golems and panthers, they put a lot of pressure. Besides, confidant demands going for non-basics, and MUD players could strip your manabase if you don't have Ranger online. In fact, I probably would side out confidants and selkis against mud for more trygons and serenities.

[TheWhiteDragon]

True, the draw critters get sided out for hate against shops...I was also thinking more vs prison shops, not aggro shops...vs aggro shops, you really don't want either bob nor selkie.

The "turn you drop them" argument is very misguided here.  Yes you have 4 moxen to possibly get bob out turn 1.  Lotus gets both out on turn 1.  As mentioned, you typically want to lead with gaddock, thalia, etc first anyway. What you forget is that the smart play is to fetch first for basic forest most times against the unknown, and you also have 3 nobles/3 birds - so your odds of going forest + noble/birds is GREATER than mox/land. Any mox or land drop on the next turn means your bobs and selkie both hit play on turn 2 more often than not...and your first draw off selkie will get you 2+ cards more often than not.  You also run 6 green lands that don't produce black, so when your oppening hand is forest+ savannah + noble and you draw the actual mana lands instead of fetches (which will be frequent), you will be playing selkie faster than bob.  Birds is an interesting call, but I think I'd still run 2 birds and 4 nobles vs 3/3.  The exalted helps immensely vs the mirror (their 2/3 trygon won't block your 3/4 trygon) and is a boon to selkie as well.  It adds to your natural clock also.

[Daenyth]

Having played bob decks almost exclusively over the past year... you want him vs every shop. The fact is that barring multiple slash panthers, mud can't get going very fast. Turn 1 bob on the play is about as brutal for shops as turn 1 golem is for blue decks.

[msg67183]

When I play shops I dont care if my opponent has a bob out against me. It does hardly anything except make them lose life or chump block. Especially in a beats deck like this I laugh at bob. Not saying its bad for the deck just saying its not like a lodestone on the play like was said.

[MaximumCDawg]

I really like Augury Adept, but I can't see playing her in any deck that has access to Selkie.  There's just no comparison between gaining a bit of life and drawing multiple cards plus having islandwalk.  Now, if you wanted to stay strictly GW, I could see trying out the ol' Adept.

[Guli]

If you think Bob is bad versus Shop, you should take another look at your deck. It probably is not designed properly. Bob turn 1 destroys Workshop when your deck has a working plan in place. Bob is not the card you want to drop. It generates permanents versus Smokestack versions and has a body versus Panther versions.

Selkie is a card you do want to drop game 2. This is yet another reason why Bob is just the better card and worth the splash.

[msg67183]

Guli, u of all people know my deck... I play neither smokestack nor slash panther. So I dont see what ur saying.

[xouman]

Confidant against MUD is ok unless you get screwed by Tangle wire. I agree that confidant it's itself a permanent to tap, but tangle slows you and does not fight itself. Every turn you are losing 1.2 lives (74 mana CC / 60 cards) and it can't beat a golem, so unless you are drawing answers, confidant does little against tangle+golem. Of course selkie does even less, but I mean I'd like noble, trygon, qasali, leggionarie, swords, etc, before confidant.

However, if MUD player starts slowly, confidant may represent a huge CA and win the game by itself, but it's not one of the best cards I'd like to draw in a GWb deck.

[Blue Lotus]

Have you considered tragic slip over swords at all? Will allow you to get there faster and in a pinch you can cast mikaus for zero and get morbid.

Edit - Bob is insane vs. shop. They have no way to interact with it and no way to draw cards. Every game you lose as a shop player is when they draw mana. Bob is excellent at facilitating this.

[credmond]

Confidant against MUD is ok unless you get screwed by Tangle wire. I agree that confidant it's itself a permanent to tap, but tangle slows you and does not fight itself. Every turn you are losing 1.2 lives (74 mana CC / 60 cards) and it can't beat a golem, so unless you are drawing answers, confidant does little against tangle+golem. Of course selkie does even less, but I mean I'd like noble, trygon, qasali, leggionarie, swords, etc, before confidant.

However, if MUD player starts slowly, confidant may represent a huge CA and win the game by itself, but it's not one of the best cards I'd like to draw in a GWb deck.

Confidant is the best answer to MUD that isn't a narrower hate card. Sure, Kataki is a better card to play against shops but kataki is no where near as strong as dark confidant against non-shops.

[Guli]

Guli, u of all people know my deck... I play neither smokestack nor slash panther. So I dont see what ur saying.

I am saying that Dark Confidant, as a way to see more threats, is the strongest option for a stable GW beat deck if are running mana fixers and anti wasteland cards like Noble and Ranger.

Tangle Wire and Sphere effects can be outplayed by ranger and noble. But meanwhile if you have that BoB active, it will get you more options and especially lands.


PS msg6..:There are so many options and versions of Workshop out there, forgive me but I really don't know your specific design. But I am sure that whatever your run, BoB, is still good

EDIT: This is the latest list I am sleeving up for testing:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Scryb Ranger
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant

3 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Kataki, War's Wage

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Deglamer
2 Nature's Claim

SB: 4 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Mental Misstep
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares

Oath, combo, Blue, Shop, Aggro, Dredge (post- board) all look solid.

[Guli]

Ok I think you guys will love this... Forget about the claims and Deglamers, let's add some flexibility to the deck.

I introduce:

 

Ranger has some unique powerful interaction with some cards. But often you don't want those cards to be as 4x in your deck. The idea is simply to play a GSZ to tutor what you need that would work well with Ranger. Also note that Ranger is an anti sphere and mana accelerator. And this helps GSZ obviously.

Concrete idea's:
I am playing with Aether Vial and Leonin Relic-Warder because I want a comfortable game versus Workshop. This means I usually have the mana to enable GSZ with my lands, Ranger and/or Noble.

First I want to have a GSZ target that gives me the ability to deal with big creatures that come down with Tinker, Oath, Show and Tell and Dark Depths. Inspired from another thread, Thornscape Apprentice is the logical GSZ target that will work great with Ranger. Note that Thornscape is also back breaking versus any aggro with Ranger. I also sneaked in 3 Path to Exiles and there are 4 Relic-Warder like I mentioned. This makes the deck ok versus Tinker win condition.

Then I want to have Ooze. Just like midrange bant uses him in the toolbox. It is an additional answer to Crucible (Ranger is anti wasteland), it wins the race war nearly every time, tarmogoyf war, welder, dredge, snapcaster, will, etc etc


If you have more suggestions, idea's, or cards that you find are 'auto add this card X!!' feel free to post. Because I run Canonist and Thalia, I am not sure of Gaddock is even needed any longer. I don't want to ever hose my own GSZ just to have a cute 1x Teeg in the deck. But then again, I can see it being powerful when you have a couple hate bears in place, so this is open for debate for sure.