Vintage on MTGO?

[Meddling Mike]

Aaron Forsythe recently had this to say:

Q) Is there any sort of plans to bring the Vintage format to Magic Online? I love the format so much and would love more players having access to it.
A) It's a hot topic here. We're (relatively) sure we want it to happen, although plans aren't in place yet.

[/quote]

There was another thread regarding Aaron's comments as a whole, but I want to focus specifically on the idea of bringing full fledged Vintage to MTGO.

To me, this seems like the most realistic approach to making Vintage a "real" format that I have ever seen. It doesn't violate the reserve list and can make the format accessible to anybody that has MTGO. I felt one of the major stumbling blocks of Vintage was that people assumed the barrier to entry was so high they never took an interest in the format. Of course Wizards would never acknowledge that most Vintage is played in a proxied environment in the United States. I think an MTGO option would bring a lot of new faces to the format who had always thought of the format as inaccessible and could be a boon for physical card vintage community as well.

I'm curious about how others feel about this. Do you think it will happen? What kind of importance can/will Wizards place on it? With Vintage sanctioned and accessible to the masses can they support large online Vintage events that can tie-in to something bigger like with their current qualifier point setup? Would you be more inclined to play/work on Vintage if you could play large online tournaments on a regular basis?

[Prospero]

1.  Yes, I think it will happen.  I don't think that it's necessarily going to stop people from playing different (physical card) formats when they decide to go out to play, instead of just playing on MTGO.  It will help the format in that the format will get publicity and maybe we get a few more players/TO's, but I don't expect it to cause a boom in the demand for physical card tournaments.  Maybe the big events (Waterbury, Eurovino, Bazaar of Moxen, Vintage Champs) net a noticeable number more players, but that's to be seen.   

2.  I think that Wizards will support it online to the extent that it needs to be supported.  I don't understand why a digital 'card' should ever really be all that expensive, but I have heard that Force of Will is absurd online ($100+.  Is this still the case?)  Wizards, in theory, could fix this, doing reprints as soon as a card hits a certain price threshold.  They'd be able to present Vintage as a relatively affordable format (as they'd be presenting all the formats as affordable.) 

And while I don't expect them to suddenly be pushing the format (Standard, Modern and the Limited formats are where they money is at), I do expect enough player interest/curiosity for tournaments to kick off and become popular online.  People like the old cards.  People want to play a Black Lotus.  And if it didn't cost them all that much to build that deck with that Black Lotus in it, why not? 

3.  If there was enough demand, they could, in theory, run a Vintage PTQ.  But that's a really, really, really long way down the line, if it happens at all.  Online Vintage would have to hit certain popularity and demand thresholds.  It would have to be affordable.  It would also have to be seen as a fair (and not random) format.  I don't know that we can convincingly make those arguments now, but those points must be answered before we get a carrot from Wizards.

4.  If that PTQ ever manifested itself, I wouldn't play.  I don't believe in owning digital 'cards' and I won't support MTGO.  I don't enjoy video games all that much; I don't feel like sitting in front of a computer for hours on end.  I could think of myriad other things to do that would all be better uses of my time.  Also, having invested in the real thing I have no interest in investing again.  I won't pay for the same thing twice. 

Maybe if I sold off my collection I'd feel differently, but that's how I feel about it now. 

[DubDub]

I think it would probably be great for Vintage as a whole, though I am unlikely to participate personally.  I vastly prefer playing in person, although, with the rampant theft nowadays physical venues have lost some of their luster.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Meh, it would have to be dirt cheap to break into, and I would constantly complain about mtgo, but I'd probably do it.
If it wasn't dirt cheap, they'd have to offer some sort of reverse redemption program on the stuff I have so it's still dirt cheap to me.

[ShawnTheDoctor]

There are a few dozen regular players of "Classic" format on MTGO, which is basically Vintage minus 9 cards, w/ 4 Brainstorm. These guys have been begging for P9 on MTGO for years, but Wizards always gives vague non-committal answers. "We're not sure yet", "we want to do it right", "need to wait for the right time", and now "We're (relatively) sure we want it to happen, although plans aren't in place yet". Aaron's comments are nothing new, so don't get too excited yet.

The day P9 comes on MTGO, you will have a few dozen guys ready and waiting to play in the first tournament. They have the duals, Forces, etc. already. Then add a possible influx of new players and you maybe have 50 players for weekly tourneys and find practice matches quickly any time of the day.

Yes, FoW is still around 100 USD. The main reason is that it's a rare in an 80-rare set where the next best card is Sylvan Library (~$8 USD online). Also this set is rarely available anymore, only for special events. The good news is that Wizards has complete control over the virtual printing press and can inflate to the moon Bernanke-style.

[Ruboonia]

Or we could all just play cockatrice for free. For someone with substantial time commitments (and thus no real way to "make money" from playing on MTGO), the pros of paying cash for fake cards (which cannot be cashed out very easily, from what I understand) are clearly outweighed by the cons. I really don't understand why MTGO is so popular when you can already play online for free. If I were a new player, I think cockatrice would be the way to go.

[Delha]

Or we could all just play cockatrice for free. For someone with substantial time commitments (and thus no real way to "make money" from playing on MTGO), the pros of paying cash for fake cards (which cannot be cashed out very easily, from what I understand) are clearly outweighed by the cons. I really don't understand why MTGO is so popular when you can already play online for free. If I were a new player, I think cockatrice would be the way to go.

FWIW, assuming Vintage takes off as a format on MTGO, I'd imagine the issue of cashing out should diminish. It's hard to find either buyers or sellers in a small market, but if Online Vintage grows, that problem inherently lessens.

[nataz]

Cockatrice is only free until it gets popular, then wizards will shut it dOwn just like apprentice.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Cockatrice is only free until it gets popular, then wizards will shut it dOwn just like apprentice.

Doubtful.  Cockatrice is distributed with zero copyrighted material.  So long as there's a legal listing of card names and text to scrape, you can't stop folks from doing so.

Also, it's open source.  Consider that it's presently legal to obtain libmp3lame so long as you promise not to actually use it.

[bactgudz]

Or we could all just play cockatrice for free. For someone with substantial time commitments (and thus no real way to "make money" from playing on MTGO), the pros of paying cash for fake cards (which cannot be cashed out very easily, from what I understand) are clearly outweighed by the cons. I really don't understand why MTGO is so popular when you can already play online for free. If I were a new player, I think cockatrice would be the way to go.

It is so much easier to cash out online than it is in real life. There are a number of well known, respected online dealers (a couple of which also run well-established brick and mortar stores) who will buy mtgo collections and/or tickets through paypal.  You can have the cash in your checking account for a few $k collection within a day or two of looking to sell; no sitting down and sorting through everything, all priced electronically and you can liquidate with no pants on.  Cards are so liquid and the margins on cards online are a lot tighter than irl, so you wouldn't be out as much either.

I agree, if you want to casually play vintage, it's a lot cheaper to play cockatrice; but there is no question that mtgo would provide a much higher caliber competitive environment for online vintage, with proper rules enforcement and sanctioned events.

To put it in perspective, the current buy-sell spread for FoW (the most expensive non-foil card on mtgo) from a major mtgo retailer is 90-99, and this is pretty standard.  There is not a single paper retailer out there with a 10% spread on any card. You're lucky to get 30%.

I could play vintage "for free" in proxy events without buying p9, but I chose to spend the money, and have no qualms about doing it twice for mtgo.

[honestabe]

I'm a fairly avid MODO player, so as long as power wasn't super expensive, and Force of Will got a reprint, I'd certainly buy into it.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I could play vintage "for free" in proxy events without buying p9, but I chose to spend the money, and have no qualms about doing it twice for mtgo.

Zero marginal utility...not how I'd spend my money.

[Meddling Mike]

I could play vintage "for free" in proxy events without buying p9, but I chose to spend the money, and have no qualms about doing it twice for mtgo.

Zero marginal utility...not how I'd spend my money.

I'm not sure if you're saying that spending the money on cards on MTGO has zero marginal utility or that buying physical power has zero marginal utility, but I think in either case I would disagree.

Additional Utility of owning power on MTGO:
1) Potential for these cards to increase in value.
2) Ability to compete in tournaments on MTGO.

Additional Utility of owning power IRL:
1) Potential for these cards to increase in value. I think the value of my power has outpaced the rate of return on my savings account over the time that I have owned them.
2) More aesthetically enjoyable than using proxies (it sounds like a minor thing, but how much more is a beta lotus worth relative to an UL lotus for just a black border rather than a white border? Same with foils, aesthetics are part of the value of the game.)
3) Opens up proxy spots for newer/obscure cards you may not have. This also gives you some flexibility on when to acquire these cards. For example, I can wait until Jace rotates out of standard and the price dips rather than buying it immediately.
4) Ability to compete in Sanctioned Events. Granted they are rare in this country, but playing in Vintage Worlds has been fun and I've always wanted to go to a Vintage event when I have traveled to Europe.

[Smmenen]

I'm curious about how others feel about this. Do you think it will happen? What kind of importance can/will Wizards place on it? With Vintage sanctioned and accessible to the masses can they support large online Vintage events that can tie-in to something bigger like with their current qualifier point setup? Would you be more inclined to play/work on Vintage if you could play large online tournaments on a regular basis?

I seem to recall having this exact discussion in the issues forum just a few months back.  My answer hasn't changed: MTGO Vintage would be a good thing for the format.  At a minimum, I can't see how it could possibly harm Vintage.

It would provide another platform for people to play Vintage, and hopefully create synergies with the paper format.  I think both MTGO and paper format would benefit from MTGO vintage.   

I would likely play Vintage on MTGO, but it would not reduce my enthusiasm for paper Magic -- on the contrary, it should help incubate players who might be interested in playing in real life proxy tournaments. 

[AmbivalentDuck]

Additional Utility of owning power on MTGO:
2) Ability to compete in tournaments on MTGO.

Already free on cockatrice.  I'm not sure speculation has intrinsic value since you have to compare it to the world of other possible investments.

Additional Utility of owning power IRL:
2) More aesthetically enjoyable than using proxies (it sounds like a minor thing, but how much more is a beta lotus worth relative to an UL lotus for just a black border rather than a white border? Same with foils, aesthetics are part of the value of the game.)
3) Opens up proxy spots for newer/obscure cards you may not have. This also gives you some flexibility on when to acquire these cards. For example, I can wait until Jace rotates out of standard and the price dips rather than buying it immediately.
4) Ability to compete in Sanctioned Events. Granted they are rare in this country, but playing in Vintage Worlds has been fun and I've always wanted to go to a Vintage event when I have traveled to Europe.

There's no aesthetic difference between high-quality proxies and "real" power.  Similarly, who's going to de-sleeve your power and bend test it at a tourney?

[Meddling Mike]

Additional Utility of owning power on MTGO:
2) Ability to compete in tournaments on MTGO.

Already free on cockatrice.  I'm not sure speculation has intrinsic value since you have to compare it to the world of other possible investments.

Yeah, you can do one of the random tournaments you or Nick organize on here, but you could presumably win more than just bragging rights on MTGO. It's like asking why anybody would play in a PTQ when they could just play casual games in the store for free. Beyond that a MTGO tournament should be better organized. I don't mean that as a knock on what you and Nick do, but a MTGO tournament would take hours, yours take days/weeks to complete. I could also see MTGO Vintage tournaments happening on a larger scale than is possible here. There's also the matters of officiating, MTGO's programming makes the issue moot with the exception of some occasional bugs. When there's a rules disagreement where a ruling can't be easily found or a player gets disconnected and the game state is lost I'm not sure how you handle that on cockatrice. I'm a little surprised it hasn't actually come up yet.

Additional Utility of owning power IRL:
2) More aesthetically enjoyable than using proxies (it sounds like a minor thing, but how much more is a beta lotus worth relative to an UL lotus for just a black border rather than a white border? Same with foils, aesthetics are part of the value of the game.)
3) Opens up proxy spots for newer/obscure cards you may not have. This also gives you some flexibility on when to acquire these cards. For example, I can wait until Jace rotates out of standard and the price dips rather than buying it immediately.
4) Ability to compete in Sanctioned Events. Granted they are rare in this country, but playing in Vintage Worlds has been fun and I've always wanted to go to a Vintage event when I have traveled to Europe.

There's no aesthetic difference between high-quality proxies and "real" power.  Similarly, who's going to de-sleeve your power and bend test it at a tourney?

Well, I suppose my argument here does hinge on whether or not one is comfortable with making fake power and passing it off as real in a tourney. Personally, I am not.

[Ten-Ten]

Anything to get players to realize Vintage IS Still a format.
(Although I still would not buy digital cards. Not a fan of mtgo)

just the other day I visited a local gaming shop, thats been open for a year now, and  through-out the conversation I had with the owner of how he is focused on mtg as "the" game in his shop, I happen to mention vintage.
He laughed and said, "well, I don't think vintage has been played by anybody in years...come to think of it, I don't think it's even a format anymore. Didn't Wotc make Extended to take it's place?"
I couldn't believe this dude. I thought I made a wrong turn and ended in the Twilight Zone.
 Every card in his shop is only standard legal. 

That in itself makes me want to go there for FNM and teach them some Type1 instead 

[AmbivalentDuck]

There's also the matters of officiating, MTGO's programming makes the issue moot with the exception of some occasional bugs. When there's a rules disagreement where a ruling can't be easily found or a player gets disconnected and the game state is lost I'm not sure how you handle that on cockatrice. I'm a little surprised it hasn't actually come up yet.

Cockatrice also stores game state on the server side.  Rules enforcement by the program isn't present, though.  Generally, it's not hard to look up rulings as they become relevant.

There's no aesthetic difference between high-quality proxies and "real" power.  Similarly, who's going to de-sleeve your power and bend test it at a tourney?

Well, I suppose my argument here does hinge on whether or not one is comfortable with making fake power and passing it off as real in a tourney. Personally, I am not.

Certainly in a context where proxies are legal, you don't have to pass them off as "real."  They're just another card in your deck.  In the context of a sanctioned tourney, there's some minuscule risk to your ability to play in future tourneys if a judge decides to test your power.  The sheer inconsistency of print runs from that era makes it relatively easy to pass off a double-sleeved proxy as real, though.

I wouldn't play in a sanctioned tourney, though.  It's like a chess championship that only admits players who use an ivory chess set.

[The Wolf]

After having played on MTGO, using Cockatrice is so painfull its not even funny.  Don't get me wrong, I think Cockatrice is very well made and a great program, but it's just plain clunkely when put up against MTGO's interface.
I also want some $ on the line.  Even if its just 2 dollar buy in with a pack as a reward, people play so much tighter when something is on the line.  I don't really  have time to play at type 1 events anymore, so this would be amazing for me. 

[birds of paradise]

There's no aesthetic difference between high-quality proxies and "real" power.  Similarly, who's going to de-sleeve your power and bend test it at a tourney?

Redicilous statement. With this argument, nobody would ever buy a piece of art (buy a copy) or a nice watch.

[chrispikula]

While I find it believable that some people may find playing on Cockatrice to be a similar experience to playing on MTGO, i think the vast majority of Magic players would find that sentiment to be completely ridiculous. 

[AmbivalentDuck]

There's no aesthetic difference between high-quality proxies and "real" power.  Similarly, who's going to de-sleeve your power and bend test it at a tourney?

Redicilous statement. With this argument, nobody would ever buy a piece of art (buy a copy) or a nice watch.

Those are examples of Veblen goods.

[Diakonov]

I would play a lot more Vintage if it were on MTGO.  There is no question in my mind that it would be fantastic for the community.  The reason I don't drive to tournaments anymore is because I haven't been playtesting and don't want to waste time and money.  If I'm up to date via MTGO, it would make the trips a lot more worthy.

Cockatrice is cool, but absolutely not the same.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I would play a lot more Vintage if it were on MTGO.  There is no question in my mind that it would be fantastic for the community.  The reason I don't drive to tournaments anymore is because I haven't been playtesting and don't want to waste time and money.  If I'm up to date via MTGO, it would make the trips a lot more worthy.

Cockatrice is cool, but absolutely not the same.

Yeah if people in the future have been messing around with vintage on mtgo and think they're hot shit, what happens when they see a 25 proxie vintage event for a mox near by?
They're more likely to show up at least.

[Shock Wave]

I would support this 100%. MTGO would be huge for Vintage. In the grand scheme of things, Vintage would probably still mean nothing to the majority of Magic players, but it would make Vintage bigger than it has ever been in the past.

[TheWhiteDragon]

There's no aesthetic difference between high-quality proxies and "real" power.

There's also very little aesthetic difference between a Rolex sold in stores and the Rolox sold from a suitcase on the streets of any major city.  I think most people would prefer the real deal though.

[Shax]

If Vintage, and I mean REAL Vintage came to MTGO. I would play it. Why? Vintage down here is pretty dry folks. I do well on Cockatrice and MWS in Vintage, so I can translate those skills over to MTGO and wreck some face.. beat the scrubs on there and steal me a PTQ for playing Vintage? I would call everyone that made the system a joke. I would love to see the day I can win a PTQ just because I play Vintage. It would be easy for someone to go on MTGO and shark everyone all the time in Vintage!

[honestabe]

Certainly wouldn't be PTQs, but "classic" (powerless vintage) isn't even a real life format and is able to fire dailies.