Optimal Tezzeret for the post Grudge Match 5 Meta

[honestabe]

Seeing as this thread is about optimal Tezzeret, here's what I believe to be the optimal build for the post Grudge Match 5 Meta.

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
5 Moxen
1 Sensei's Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Dark Confidant
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Viashino Heretic

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Fire//Ice
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
1 Rebuild
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor

3 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Sideboard:
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Viashino Heretic
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pyroclasm
1 Mountain

After taking a break for a while, I just got back into the format and realized creatures are everywhere.  This list is designed to have game against both aggressive and disruptive creature strategies.  For the most part, it looks like a standard Confidant Vault/Key deck from about a year ago.  However, there are a few interesting choices.  For instance, 3 Mental Misstep:  Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares seem more and more common, and we want to protect our Bobs and Blightsteel.  I could see upping the missteps up to 4.  2 Snapcaster Mage:  He hasn't seemed all that impressive to be quite honest.  Sometimes he flashes back Ancestral and is amazing, other times, he's useless and just gets pitched to Force of Will.  I'll admit though, that this isn't really the best deck for him, but I still like him as a 2-of.  2 Fire//Ice:  Another card that's just been great.  Kills almost anythin out of Fish, can throw your opponent off drain mana, pitches to force, and you can get it with a Merchant Scroll.   Pyroclasm out of the board has also been flat out amazing.  It's unreal how many games you just win when you get it.

Anyway, if anyone has any ideas, please lemme know

[brokenbacon]

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
5 Moxen
1 Sensei's Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Dark Confidant
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Viashino Heretic

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Fire//Ice
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
1 Rebuild
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor

3 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Sideboard:
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Viashino Heretic
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pyroclasm
1 Mountain

All looks really solid. I recommend you take out TFK for another Jace though. In my experience with the deck Jace serves as another win con, even if you're only Brainstorming and bouncing. I'm currently playing some weird list with Bobs, 2 Snaps and 2 Trinket Mages and I went up to 3 Jace (it's probably the best part of the deck). I love me some Jace.

[Grand Inquisitor]

1 Viashino Heretic

What's the thought with this slot?  Is it all for workshop?  It doesn't even solve tinker>bot anymore.  I'm looking at the rest of the list and not seeing an answer to Stony Silence (not even SB), I think I'd prefer ETruth or something in this slot.

1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Library of Alexandria

None of these are terrible, but I don't think this deck is going to have a full grip after T1 very often.  Also, in my metagame, flusterstorm is a serious consideration for big cc spells.

[honestabe]

Heretic has been one of my favorite cards in the deck.  Blowing up Chalices, Cages, Phyrexian Revokers and Null Rods like you read about.

Library is in the place of a spell, as the 16th land, but I'm not too thrilled with it either.  I don't think I play enough permission to really make it that good.

As for Thirst and Gifts, I've liked Thirst quite a bit, but Gifts has actually seemed a bit "win-more".  Also, without Mystical Tutor, you can't even set up the old "Demonic, Vamp, Mystical, "x" pile to make sure you get a Yawg's. 

I'm just getting back into the format, and forgot Stony Silence was a thing, yeah I definitely need a way to deal with it.

I think I'll cut Gifts for an echoing truth, and Library for Strip Mine/Desolate Lighthouse.  Strip Mine seems decent to get Cavern of Souls, but Lighthouse just oozes value.

[Meddling Mike]

V. Thread Redundancy

Purpose:  Posts on the TMD forums are divided into threads to organize their content, and allow users to easily find specific kinds of information.  Posts which violate this rule include:

1.  "Thread Necromancy."  This means posting in a thread that has gone one month or more without any activity, unless there's an especially good reason.  Please start a new thread instead.

Nobody had posted in that thread since Jan 2011. In the future please start a new topic. I have split the topic and renamed the thread appropriately.

[Commandant]

Why do you feel Heretic is a well positioned answer to Workshops? Many lists are running Duplicant, Revoker, and Dismember in the board to deal with Trygon. Two to three months before Grudge Match 5 I came to the conclusion that Workshops pilots are well prepared for creature based hate strategies. Would it not be more prudent to look for answers elsewhere?

[honestabe]

TO be perfectly honest, in my testing, it seems like he's there more for Fish than he is for shops.  He can bounce with most of their guys in combat, which is crucial when you have a Jace out, and he can blow up their Graffdigger's Cages, Chalice of the Voids, Null Rods and Phyrexian Revokers.  He's certainly ok against shops, but I'll admit that if I wanted something maindeck to completely pwn shops, he wouldn't be my first choice, but his flexability is what I really like.

[Commandant]

TO be perfectly honest, in my testing, it seems like he's there more for Fish than he is for shops.  He can bounce with most of their guys in combat, which is crucial when you have a Jace out, and he can blow up their Graffdigger's Cages, Chalice of the Voids, Null Rods and Phyrexian Revokers.  He's certainly ok against shops, but I'll admit that if I wanted something maindeck to completely pwn shops, he wouldn't be my first choice, but his flexability is what I really like.

Perhaps it is a difference in our metas but I haven't seen Fish run Chalice in years. The most viable Fish to me seems to be those builds that include on some level both green and white in which case Stoney Silence seems to be more of an issue then Null Rod. In addition you would expect Exalted which means Heretic is a chump at best in combat and a great target for one of their 3-5 removal spells. If Graffdigger's is a huge problem I would be inclined to argue that you would get more out of a green splash as that actually allows you to deal with both enchantments and artifacts.

[bisamratte]

I think Bolts are better than Fire/Ice atm. It flips just for 1 with Confidant, costs less and handels Lodestone, Jace and Trygon. Rebuilt over Hurkyl's also seens a bit strange. And I'd play at least 1 FLusterstorm main to have more cheap Snapcaster targets.

[Daenyth]

Flipping fire/ice to bob does suck, but I disagree that it's better right now. At least where I am, golems are not a big presence, but cavern decks filled with x/1s are. Mental Misstep is everywhere too

[JustABee]

Flipping fire/ice to bob does suck, but I disagree that it's better right now. At least where I am, golems are not a big presence, but cavern decks filled with x/1s are. Mental Misstep is everywhere too

If I were playing this deck I would like lightning bolt over Fire/Ice for my meta, but I see your point. Have you considered Forked Bolt? It is literally the Fire half of Fire/Ice at sorcery speed for R. It might be worth considering as a "cheaper" flip to Dark Confidant.

[InfectedMushroom]

If I were playing this deck I would like lightning bolt over Fire/Ice for my meta, but I see your point. Have you considered Forked Bolt? It is literally the Fire half of Fire/Ice at sorcery speed for R. It might be worth considering as a "cheaper" flip to Dark Confidant.

Then you lose all the perks of Ice.

* Pitches to FoW
* Can turn off Mana Drain early game
* Fetched with Merchant Scroll
* Tapping down a creature to protect yourself or a planeswalker
* At worst, it cycles.

These reasons, along with a variety which will occur in different game states, make it much better than Forked Bolt.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

If I were playing this deck I would like lightning bolt over Fire/Ice for my meta, but I see your point. Have you considered Forked Bolt? It is literally the Fire half of Fire/Ice at sorcery speed for R. It might be worth considering as a "cheaper" flip to Dark Confidant.

Then you lose all the perks of Ice.

* Pitches to FoW
* Can turn off Mana Drain early game
* Fetched with Merchant Scroll
* Tapping down a creature to protect yourself or a planeswalker
* At worst, it cycles.

These reasons, along with a variety which will occur in different game states, make it much better than Forked Bolt.

If this strix control picks up I'll be running fire/ice to nail bobs and welders.

[A.-1.]

In addition to Fire // Ice, I'd like to see Darkblast or Lava Dart make a comeback if X/1s continue to run rampant. But like it was said earlier, if Missteps are everywhere in your meta, those 1cc answers might not be best.

Chris hit the major reasons to run Fire // Ice. There's also the fact that Ice shuts off Trinisphere, is at least Ancestral Recall versus Precursor Golem, and Fire is Instant speed.

[bisamratte]

Flipping fire/ice to bob does suck, but I disagree that it's better right now. At least where I am, golems are not a big presence, but cavern decks filled with x/1s are. Mental Misstep is everywhere too

Of course it depends on deck and meta, but in a really controlish deck with 11-12 Counters, Bobs and Snapcasters I'd really prefer Bolts atm. Some additional things besides my further arguments you should keep in mind:

1.) Maindeck Bolts can safe sideboard slots (I don't play any futher creaturehate in my creatureheavy meta besides the 2 maindeck Bolts)

2.) You don't have a quite good chance to handle an early 5/3 guy preboard, b/c drain and Jace mostly are too expensive

3.) Bolts are a 2of, Fire/Ice (normally) is a 1of, you draw them more often and together with Snapcasters they enhance certain preboard matchups significantly

4.) Bolt + 4 Confis + 3 Snapcaster are a highty relevant clock in the control mirror

5.) Against creaturedecks, the flip damage is relevant. With multiple Jaces and Forces to flip and space for only 1 Top + the high damage of your own Missteps, Fetchlands, Vampiric and Forces, you really don't want to have any other expensive spells

6.) X/1s can be handled by Snapcasters and Bobs, X/3s and a brainstoming Jace not

7.) Many creaturedecks don't play Missteps but manadenial and against Missteps you can profit from your dead Flusterstorms

8.) Bolts are faster. Example: your opponent starts with turn 1 Bob and you have no mox. Misstep counters your Bolt, but if you have to wait for Fire/Ice Bob cycles and/or you run into a drain or Flusterstom. Your opponent has 2 more cards in hand as well.

Summarized: If your meta, decklist or playstyle needs Fire/Ice - ok, but overall regarded Bolts are imho the better choice. Most of the latest successfull UBR Confidant/Jace/Snapcaster lists play Bolts as a 2of main, and I think this is correct.

[rukcus]

I find it odd that the deck is called Tezzerator but runs none anymore. /aside

Anyways, I've been having some good success on the West Coast with UBR Tezz.  It originally started off as a Slaver Control rebirth, but Slaver quickly got cut.  I believe Demars wrote about a similar list a few months ago too.  I've done consistently with it in tournaments (3-1-1 and 4-0-1 in 4-Round events locally), as well as besting Mennendian's Baleful Strix list and several Gush builds.  The red splash is obviously very good against other Blue-based decks primarily due to REB/Pyro.

My list - UB(e)R Tezz (also, Slaverless)

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Myr Battlesphere

2 Jace TMS
1 Tezzeret the Seeker

4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
2 Mental Misstep
1 Flusterstorm

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Gifts Ungiven

1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker

1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Nihil Spellbomb

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Pyroclasm
1 Doom Blade
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Viashino Heretic
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Mountain
1 Perish

This was in anticipation of 90% Blue-based metagame with a small number of Green-creature based tempo (RUG, maybe GW bears).  Had I known that there would be no Dredge, I would have replaced the Leylines with some more general purpose g/y hate and extra anti-Blue blasts and/or Duress.

Crucible/Strip usually got boarded out, and I could see myself replacing it with a Fire/Ice, Lightning Bolt, Preordain and/or Thoughtseize.  Ponder was a recent addition and it proved to be immediately good in this list.