Elves!

[msg67183]

If you're discounting the Workshop match-up because you have 4 x Symbiote and 4 x Viridian Shaman, you're kidding yourself. I don't really care whether there has been a drop in Shops or not -- Shops will destroy this type of deck 95% of the time no matter what you do.  Elvish Archdruid and Viridian Shaman aren't worth anything if you can't cast them.  Also, I never mentioned bringing in Caller of the Claw against Workshops; if anything, I was responding to the idea that Wrap in Vigor (or Golgari Charm) could be used to profitably gang-block bigger creatures, which may not be the most terrible thing in the world, but probably wouldn't be worth trying to do. 

Workshops will still show up in numbers because it's relatively cheap to play under ten proxy.  If the blue decks are smashing Workshops, and that's why you haven't seen them in the top 8, then that's fine, but that also means that unless you're winning out, you'll be the one facing all the Shop decks in the X-1 or X-2 brackets. 

If it's NOT Workshops that you're worrying about, then it opens more cans-o-worms.  Racing Dredge can be a problem unless the deck is streamlined enough to go off on turn 2 consistently, and many sideboard slots need to be devoted to stopping Dredge--this takes away from the other decks. 

If it's "Big Blue" decks (Grixis, Gush, etc.), Elves has a big problem because it can't interact meaningfully with those types of decks.  They counter the draw spell, making you over-commit to the board, and then sweep the board.  Caller MAY help with that, if you can find one AND keep a Cavern handy.  Without Summoner's Pact or something cute like Fauna Shaman, it's almost too much luck-based to consider consistently.  Or Big Blue will just counter the Elves! player's face off.  Cavern of Souls is surprisingly sub-par when all of your creatures are little 1/1 dorks that don't pose much of a threat.  Many sideboard slots can be used to help with this...

So that's, what, three popular archetypes?  You want 4 - 8 cards against Dredge to beat it regularly; 4 - 8 cards against Shops; and 4 - 8 cards to shore up the Big Blue match up.  We haven't even hit pure combo or Oath of Druids, both of which could use another subset of cards.  That's 12 - 21 cards to bring in already.  On the bright side, you should be smashing most Fish decks pretty handily. 

The point to take home here is that there can't be a strong Elves! deck with the currently accepted shell.  I like that you're trying to board into the aggro plan, but I'm extremely concerned that you don't have enough fast mana to beat Workshops.  The odds of you beating Dredge are extremely small; Grim Long & other Oath decks are probably similar.  Caverns, Archdruids, and Caller of the Claw should give you a pretty healthy match-up against Landstill and Bomberman, and might even help against BUG fish.  various fish decks, but you probably don't need it.  Maybe those match-ups are enough?  I have no idea.  I realize that you can't beat everything all the time. 

Should I just exclude EE from my thoughts, and just play how I originally was going to, with the black splash? Abrupt Decay has value, and I COULD play Golgari Charm if need be. Plus Deathrite Shaman has splash damage against Dredge.
Are you against Archdruid in the board?
I like Ezuri in the main because it helps the Aggro plan and it is good against removal.
Staff of Domination was good against Shops, but it is probably uneeded.
If I'm trying to deal with other matchups besides Shops, is Priest of Titania neccessary? I mean not as a 4 of that is.

[rpf5029]

It's not that I don't like the idea of Archdruids in the board -- I do -- but I think that they may take up too much space.  I'm currently testing the black splash for Deathrite, Cavern of Souls, AND some number of Abrupt Decay / Dismember out of the board.  I'm also playing 18 non-elf mana sources.  6 fetch, 3 Bayou, 2 Forest, 3 Cavern, 2 Cradle, Lotus and Emerald. 

You bring up a great point about Priest of Titania.  I have only ever played Priest for the Workshop match-up. In a perfect world, I would be playing MAYBE 1 for a Green Sun's target, but that's it.  When the deck was pure combo, she wasn't in any original lists because she has the chance to break the curve pretty hard while mid-combo.  One could certainly make the argument for boarding them in against Shops only, but that wastes precious sideboard slots. 
 
I definitely don't think that ignoring EE is the right thing to do.  But how to answer it?  Caller of the Claw is a great suggestion, but it was SIGNIFICANTLY better when the deck was / is playing Summoner's Pact. Null Rod and Pithing Needle are both answers -- Needle can hit Bazaar of Baghdad against  Dredge, and Time Vault or Jace against Blue if we're desperate. I find Null Rod to be particularly attractive, but it's vulnerable to Ancient Grudge, random artifact hate, and turns off arguably our best draw engine against control in Skullclamp. 

For my money, clamp is better than Glimpse against control in the long game because it can accrue advantage over time.  Unfortunately, its ability to accrue advantage doesn't do much if we don't have really absurdly efficient beaters (which we don't.)  It's also a bit of a trap, since Skullclamp can make us trade creatures for nothing.  Without something like Wirewood Hivemaster, I don't know if clamp is good enough.  In a perfect world, I'd rather be using Elvish Visionary for the same purpose. 

[msg67183]

It's not that I don't like the idea of Archdruids in the board -- I do -- but I think that they may take up too much space.  I'm currently testing the black splash for Deathrite, Cavern of Souls, AND some number of Abrupt Decay / Dismember out of the board.  I'm also playing 18 non-elf mana sources.  6 fetch, 3 Bayou, 2 Forest, 3 Cavern, 2 Cradle, Lotus and Emerald. 

You bring up a great point about Priest of Titania.  I have only ever played Priest for the Workshop match-up. In a perfect world, I would be playing MAYBE 1 for a Green Sun's target, but that's it.  When the deck was pure combo, she wasn't in any original lists because she has the chance to break the curve pretty hard while mid-combo.  One could certainly make the argument for boarding them in against Shops only, but that wastes precious sideboard slots. 
 
I definitely don't think that ignoring EE is the right thing to do.  But how to answer it?  Caller of the Claw is a great suggestion, but it was SIGNIFICANTLY better when the deck was / is playing Summoner's Pact. Null Rod and Pithing Needle are both answers -- Needle can hit Bazaar of Baghdad against  Dredge, and Time Vault or Jace against Blue if we're desperate. I find Null Rod to be particularly attractive, but it's vulnerable to Ancient Grudge, random artifact hate, and turns off arguably our best draw engine against control in Skullclamp. 

For my money, clamp is better than Glimpse against control in the long game because it can accrue advantage over time.  Unfortunately, its ability to accrue advantage doesn't do much if we don't have really absurdly efficient beaters (which we don't.)  It's also a bit of a trap, since Skullclamp can make us trade creatures for nothing.  Without something like Wirewood Hivemaster, I don't know if clamp is good enough.  In a perfect world, I'd rather be using Elvish Visionary for the same purpose. 

If I stick to mono green, and cut Priest of Titania to 1, I can then add 3 more Mana Elves, increasing speed and consistency. You are probably right about Cavern not doing much here. Quirion Ranger might be better than I thought. The board may need some work but I am a fan of Archdruid, Ooze, and my 2 Symbiote and 3 Shaman. So that leaves 5 Slots for the board. What could they be in mono Green? I'm not sure I really like the Wrap in Vigor idea, same with Caller of the Claw. I also like Staff but if I cut Priests Staff gets worse. And Caller gets worse if I don't play Pact, which you said. That being said idk if Archdruid is even worth the space in the board although he helps Shops considerably. Im actually inclined to side out Glimpse against Control decks since Skullclamp is just better against them. I'm just spewing out thoughts and I hope it all makes sense and I apologize if I confused you.

[rpf5029]

It's not that I don't like the idea of Archdruids in the board -- I do -- but I think that they may take up too much space.  I'm currently testing the black splash for Deathrite, Cavern of Souls, AND some number of Abrupt Decay / Dismember out of the board.  I'm also playing 18 non-elf mana sources.  6 fetch, 3 Bayou, 2 Forest, 3 Cavern, 2 Cradle, Lotus and Emerald. 

You bring up a great point about Priest of Titania.  I have only ever played Priest for the Workshop match-up. In a perfect world, I would be playing MAYBE 1 for a Green Sun's target, but that's it.  When the deck was pure combo, she wasn't in any original lists because she has the chance to break the curve pretty hard while mid-combo.  One could certainly make the argument for boarding them in against Shops only, but that wastes precious sideboard slots. 
 
I definitely don't think that ignoring EE is the right thing to do.  But how to answer it?  Caller of the Claw is a great suggestion, but it was SIGNIFICANTLY better when the deck was / is playing Summoner's Pact. Null Rod and Pithing Needle are both answers -- Needle can hit Bazaar of Baghdad against  Dredge, and Time Vault or Jace against Blue if we're desperate. I find Null Rod to be particularly attractive, but it's vulnerable to Ancient Grudge, random artifact hate, and turns off arguably our best draw engine against control in Skullclamp. 

For my money, clamp is better than Glimpse against control in the long game because it can accrue advantage over time.  Unfortunately, its ability to accrue advantage doesn't do much if we don't have really absurdly efficient beaters (which we don't.)  It's also a bit of a trap, since Skullclamp can make us trade creatures for nothing.  Without something like Wirewood Hivemaster, I don't know if clamp is good enough.  In a perfect world, I'd rather be using Elvish Visionary for the same purpose. 

If I stick to mono green, and cut Priest of Titania to 1, I can then add 3 more Mana Elves, increasing speed and consistency. You are probably right about Cavern not doing much here. Quirion Ranger might be better than I thought. The board may need some work but I am a fan of Archdruid, Ooze, and my 2 Symbiote and 3 Shaman. So that leaves 5 Slots for the board. What could they be in mono Green? I'm not sure I really like the Wrap in Vigor idea, same with Caller of the Claw. I also like Staff but if I cut Priests Staff gets worse. And Caller gets worse if I don't play Pact, which you said. That being said idk if Archdruid is even worth the space in the board although he helps Shops considerably. Im actually inclined to side out Glimpse against Control decks since Skullclamp is just better against them. I'm just spewing out thoughts and I hope it all makes sense and I apologize if I confused you.

Whoa, whoa, whoa -- let's back up, here.  I still think Cavern of Souls does a lot because it puts your creatures on board.  That's still very important.  Especially if there is an Elvish Visionary involved.  You can't side out Glimpse against Control decks because it's still really important and really powerful.  I'm not sure if you need even MORE mana elves -- you can use that spot to try out Wirewood Hivemaster, Fauna Shaman, or any other number of good things.  Elvish Spirit Guide might be worth the try.  If you try out Fauna Shaman, Caller of the Claw can stay. 

[xouman]

Sorry for reopen it 3 weeks later.

I haven't faced EE at all, but it sounds like a big trouble. Still, playing maindeck priest+archdruid (plus several CC2 elves) makes EE a bit less frightening. Caller of the claw is probably the best option if you can manage to end the turn open (annoying), and I like a lot the idea of revoker. Revoker is easily castable, attacks if it needs to, affects EE and many other permanents. Can shut griselbrand so you have up to 3 turns against burning oath, shuts jace of course (but still jace should not be a trouble), liliana (a well timed liliana is probably gg), noble/drs (can make a tempo boost), metalworker, steel hellkite, batterskul, staff of nin...

null rod is the card if you are not playing skullclamp (i'm not) and expect lot of vault/metalworker/burning oath/bomberman. null rod is meant to prevent quickly wins for the opponent, but elves cannot control opponent at all.just throw it and earn several turns to win the game.


tomorrow I'm playing elves again. I'm planning to play the same 60 (I have been on travel 4 weeks and haven't touched any card), but for 4 caverns for 2-3 lands and something else.

I'm not sold on dropping phyrexian metamorph (tested it again against IA with mtg Forge), it has a unique function. When you are losing, it matches opponent threat (confidant, tarmo, BSC...) and when you are comboing he is another regal force (if first was small, quite common for me) a symbiote to continue combo or just an archdruid. But it can be off if I can't find a better replacement for a land.

lands: since I don't own neither moxen nor lotus, I'm playing 16 lands probably. Maybe 17 since my curve is a bit high (I lost to bug 1-2 both matches because of mana screw, and one match against mud could have been better with a couple of forests more). 0-1 pendelhaven, 4 caverns and 12 forests. Pendelhaven is ok or it's just wasteland fodder? fire ice, darkblast, massacre, snapcaster... there are lots of cases when pendelhaven has a small impact.

mud hate: I faced lots of problems with sphere/golem, more than with cotv1. hellkite is also frighthening. Should I play dismember or just artifact hate? viridian shaman, seal of cleansing, seeds...?

vexing susher: it skips cotv and of course all counterwall, but does not overlap. 1? 2? 3?

xanthid swarm: 0-3?

dosan: 0-1?

thorn of amethyst: 0-4?

relic of progenitus: 1-3?

graffdiggers: 3-4?

skullclamp: 0-3?

revoker??

[vaughnbros]

I haven't faced EE at all, but it sounds like a big trouble. Still, playing maindeck priest+archdruid (plus several CC2 elves) makes EE a bit less frightening. Caller of the claw is probably the best option if you can manage to end the turn open (annoying), and I like a lot the idea of revoker. Revoker is easily castable, attacks if it needs to, affects EE and many other permanents. Can shut griselbrand so you have up to 3 turns against burning oath, shuts jace of course (but still jace should not be a trouble), liliana (a well timed liliana is probably gg), noble/drs (can make a tempo boost), metalworker, steel hellkite, batterskul, staff of nin...

Diversifying your mana costs makes EE almost a complete non factor.  If you are loaded up on too many 1 drops that is the only time you really need to worry.

null rod is the card if you are not playing skullclamp (i'm not) and expect lot of vault/metalworker/burning oath/bomberman. null rod is meant to prevent quickly wins for the opponent, but elves cannot control opponent at all.just throw it and earn several turns to win the game.

I don't think null rod really does what you need it to do.  Without wastelands/strip you don't have a reliable mana denial strategy.  When mana denial isn't a route to victory the card becomes on par with pithing needle, which is definitely not playable.

lands: since I don't own neither moxen nor lotus, I'm playing 16 lands probably. Maybe 17 since my curve is a bit high (I lost to bug 1-2 both matches because of mana screw, and one match against mud could have been better with a couple of forests more). 0-1 pendelhaven, 4 caverns and 12 forests. Pendelhaven is ok or it's just wasteland fodder? fire ice, darkblast, massacre, snapcaster... there are lots of cases when pendelhaven has a small impact.

16 lands is a lot for this deck unless you want to play waste/strip of your own I'd highly suggest cutting them down.  Against any deck not mana denying you only need 1 land and heavy land hands can easily bog you down.

Skullclamp is a great card when combined with Wirewood Hivemaster.  Without him though I don't think its all that great.

Shusher, dosan and swarm are unnecessary for the most part with caverns in the deck.  The bigger issue is board sweepers.  If you play around them you can beat them.  If you run caller of the claw you can probably crush them.

Chalice of the void at 1 is even less of a problem with caverns.  As such dismember could definitely be an option.

I'd stay away from thorn and revoker.  They stray from what the deck is trying to do.

Cage is good for dredge and oath nothing more.  If you expect to see those 2 decks pack 4 in your board.

[xouman]

After reading you, I pretty agree. However:

-null rod is not intended to work as truly mana denial, just to buy turns against some decks. Same applies to thorn. Elves can be really quick, winning on T3 if unmolested, but sometimes I cannot win until T5-6 if I have to go the aggro route. Against fast decks T3 is acceptable, but T5-T6 is not. That's why I feel I need some gush-burning oath hate. Even when that's not my strategy, mana denial can be key (like some decks playing mindbreak trap in tbe sb). Since I don't play gsz neither skullclamp, both feel viable in the sb.

-I can see skullclamp as a great card even without Hivemaster. Before I played archdruids it was a 4x, and not worse than glimpse. I had to play tigther, but as soon as I got 2 nettle active it was easy. But in my build is a quite crappy card. I'd better play . Awesome as a top deck, in this deck is *close* to an ancestral recall (lots of times you get 3 cards, and best of all, creatues and not lands). A bit slow, but skullclamp+first activation needs 2 mana and a creature to get 2 non-filtered cards.

-Is cage good enough to get in against gush?. It shuts tinker and will, the two winconds. I say yes, although I didn't do that one month ago. Without playing GSZ (I play genesis wave but would side it out) I think it's a 4 of.

-Dosan has value itself. Players cannot play bolts or swords during my turn. Same for xantid. But xantid without skullclamp is not the same...


Thanks for your feedback, I would have it in mind (even when I seem to argue with everything, I truly appreciate comments and take good note)

[msg67183]

I strongly recommend Hivemaster. I have seen a version I play combo turn 2 multiple times, and I don't play Glimpse of Nature, or Emrakul! The trick is getting multiple dudes off Hivemaster, then getting either Gaea's Cradle or Craterhoof Behemoth into play and just winnnng on the spot with Ezuri.

[xouman]

Hi again. I played elves! again, and another time got 3-3

I made small changes:

11 forest
4 cavern of souls
4 elvish archdruid
3 priest of titania
3 llanowar elves
3 fyndhorn elves
2 arbor elf
4 heritage druid
4 nettle sentinel
2 wirewood symbiote
2 quirion ranger
2 elvish visionary
1 fauna shaman
1 viridian shaman
1 viridian zealot
1 regal force
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 glimpse of nature
3 genesis wave
2 pact of summoning
1 staff of domination
1 lightning greaves

-1 pendelhaven, -3 forest, +4 caverns
-1 metamorph, -1 skullclamp, +1 elvish visionary, +1 genesis wave

sb
1 ezuri, renegade leader
1 forest
1 caller of the claw
3 thorn of ametyst
3 viridian shaman
4 grafdigger's cage
2 relic of progenitus


1st round restoration angel (he made top 8)
He counters or kills my first 6 creatures until he gets enough advantage to own me.
In second match after some permission I can play a genesis wave for GGG+13 and win.
In third match I kept a hand with high mana costs but solid (2 forests, 1 cavern. 2 archdruid, 1 ezuri, 1 nettle, 1 staff), because he does not apply quick pressure, but I'm wrong. he plays a confidant and next turn sofi and equips it. I never get in the game.
1-2

2nd round gg oath
I put him on dredge and keep a quick hand if unmolested. I open with mana elf, but in his turn he plays oath. I play priest and elf and pass. He activates and finds emrakul, but before drawing plays vampiric for time walk, gg.
in second match i open with cage. he forces my T2 thorn. I play some elves in T3 but he responds with his lone show and tell, revealing blazing archon. I combo next turn looking for staff, hoping it would have some solution, but it does not and I concede.
0-2

3rd round pyromancer gush
He is a player from old times but hasn't played for years. In first match he is assembling an army of tokens and slowly countering some elves, but before he can make a serious assault I get 16 mana from titania +5 elves (one is a quirion to untap her again) and play my last card: an emrakul.
in second match he is killing all my elves with grim lavamancer. In order to keep getting fuel, he is forced to do bad plays as surgical and misstep it, but my elves keep being killed and played. He has a vendillion that puts me to 9, but at the end I play a big genesis wave for a hard win (there were only 5 cards left in my library). infinite mana from staff of domination + ezuri sealed the deal.
2-0

4th round pyromancer deck+oath sb
He controls quite well the board with counterspells, bolts and jace, and before I can get enough elves he gets vault+key I played a risk glimpse (I needed a mana elf or a land in my first two draws) but I wasn't lucky
In second match he does not play something relevant and I directly combo.
In third match I have an active priest with 2 elves (one of them a viridian zealot) when he plays tinker with key or vault at battlefield. I have to block with a nettle but then I play staff and keep tapping bsc until I get the third elf in a row to combo him.
He was quite unlucky since he didn't see any oath in the second and third match after seeing lots of cards (in one of them he had SDT)
2-1

5th round oath
he opens with oath, maybe with orchard too. he plays demon oath and after timewalking into another demon I'm done.
In the second match I open with grafdigger's, but he plays oath and has tolarian+mox+mox+lotus or something similar (I count 8 mana), so I now that he can play demon if he can fetch the oath. I don't play an elf praying to get zealot, but he has an orchard to activate. He gets maniac, plays balance with no cards in hand, and it's GG.
0-2

6th round UW rest in peace
he wins dice again (I just won once) but it's irrelevant. he plays mindcensor, gets me to 18, and then vendillion (taking genesis wave), and puts me to 13. But I have priest + several elves and draw emrakul ftw. In the second match he has batterskull and attacks for 15 alongside sfm (I'm not going to block with priest+mana elf). I win on my turn playing a glimpse and having nice draws.
2-0


the deck performed more or less as one month ago. Oath is a real pain if it gets first turn oath (but which deck is not suffering from that without a fow in hand?). Cavern helps a lot, I lost first match because not seeing one in all match. Blazing archon needs some answer, I hope one not too much stupid.

on the other hand, I love facing aggro, because it means it's easier to combo. genesis wave is awesome, but it got out with vendillion twice, and it got countered more than once since my elves prevented fows and drains to be played. Maybe gilt-leaf archdruid deserves a try, since it cannot be countered under cavern.

[msg67183]

Well congrats on winning 3 rounds, but I guess 3-3 isn't much to celebrate about. I would suggest playing Wirewood Hivemaster, Ezuri in the main, and Craterhoof Behemoth. I would advise in playing Gaea's Cradle, although you may not own any. I have cut a great deal of cards from traditional lists to make a more streamlined and consistent list that usually goldfishes a win on turn 3. If you would like me to provide a list I could, or I could even PM it to you.

[xouman]

I'm not saying 3-3 is impressive because it's not (even less starting 0-2). I'm just giving some feedback on a nearly unplayed deck :p

Everybody tells me to play cradle. well, all of you must be correct, because I never played them or against. Genesis wave would be benefited but in this deck cradle does "little". It's hard to have at least 3 elves and not having 7 mana for a regal force, for example. I have mana issues when I don't have any elf, because of all my elves, 7 are archdruid/titania, 8 llanowars, 4 heritages, 4 quirions/symbiotes to untap... that's 23 mana related creatures. I agree that cradle is a great T2 play (T1 cavern llanowar, T2 2 elves+cradle for GGG) but since I play some high costed elves, cradle effect is weird curving (T1 llanowar, T2 priest+2 mana off cradle), and beyond T3 the effect is good but "nothing special". Don't missunderstand me, I'll play them if I have them, but I don't find them so needed, I wouldn't have won any match I lost having them.

Craterhoof Behemoth is nice, but since I don't have mana issues, I prefer emrakul. For that mana I'd play second regal force, or move ezuri to main deck.

Hivemaster is great on some builds, I agree. I should move archdruids to hivemasters and genesis waves to skullclamps. Probably add birchlores and something else. However I'm not sure that deck would perform better in my metagame.

How were the 7 matches I lost?

-3 of them were to T1 oath. I cannot do anything to that other than play cage and pray for zealot. I didn't play nature's claim because of mud's cotv. Any elves!! deck would have troubles with T1 oath, I suppose.

-1 match lost to blazing archon. I'm still seeking for a playable card that covers it.

-1 match lost to removal on my first 6 creatures/spells, while getting card avantage. get over that.

-1 match lost to really quick confidant+sofi. My deck should be capable of dealing with that, but at the moment of playing and equiping sofi I just had 1 elf in play. that was the more winnable of the lost matches, but my opener was slow.

-1 match lost to vault+key. it was not a quick match, but jace x 2 slowed me for a few turns while he fetched the combo. I agree that other builds would have won this one, but at the end I won the round even against a BSC in front of me without going off until 3 turns later.



of the 7 wins, all of them involved 15 mana or more. One of them was without emrakul (infinite mana from staff+ezuri) but normally it's not important the finisher provide I have staff or emrakul. I also played a third match against UW RIP player and won that match in the aggro mode after a fail genesis wave (from 12 cards revealed I just drew 3 sorceries, 3 lands and 6 1/1 elves). In front of a batterskull and a vendillion/aven, I drew archdruid to be able to win with 9 creatures (I wouldn't be able to without archdruid)

[vaughnbros]

I'm not saying 3-3 is impressive because it's not (even less starting 0-2). I'm just giving some feedback on a nearly unplayed deck :p

Everybody tells me to play cradle. well, all of you must be correct, because I never played them or against. Genesis wave would be benefited but in this deck cradle does "little". It's hard to have at least 3 elves and not having 7 mana for a regal force, for example. I have mana issues when I don't have any elf, because of all my elves, 7 are archdruid/titania, 8 llanowars, 4 heritages, 4 quirions/symbiotes to untap... that's 23 mana related creatures. I agree that cradle is a great T2 play (T1 cavern llanowar, T2 2 elves+cradle for GGG) but since I play some high costed elves, cradle effect is weird curving (T1 llanowar, T2 priest+2 mana off cradle), and beyond T3 the effect is good but "nothing special". Don't missunderstand me, I'll play them if I have them, but I don't find them so needed, I wouldn't have won any match I lost having them.

Craterhoof Behemoth is nice, but since I don't have mana issues, I prefer emrakul. For that mana I'd play second regal force, or move ezuri to main deck.

Hivemaster is great on some builds, I agree. I should move archdruids to hivemasters and genesis waves to skullclamps. Probably add birchlores and something else. However I'm not sure that deck would perform better in my metagame.

How were the 7 matches I lost?

-3 of them were to T1 oath. I cannot do anything to that other than play cage and pray for zealot. I didn't play nature's claim because of mud's cotv. Any elves!! deck would have troubles with T1 oath, I suppose.

-1 match lost to blazing archon. I'm still seeking for a playable card that covers it.

-1 match lost to removal on my first 6 creatures/spells, while getting card avantage. get over that.

-1 match lost to really quick confidant+sofi. My deck should be capable of dealing with that, but at the moment of playing and equiping sofi I just had 1 elf in play. that was the more winnable of the lost matches, but my opener was slow.

-1 match lost to vault+key. it was not a quick match, but jace x 2 slowed me for a few turns while he fetched the combo. I agree that other builds would have won this one, but at the end I won the round even against a BSC in front of me without going off until 3 turns later.

of the 7 wins, all of them involved 15 mana or more. One of them was without emrakul (infinite mana from staff+ezuri) but normally it's not important the finisher provide I have staff or emrakul. I also played a third match against UW RIP player and won that match in the aggro mode after a fail genesis wave (from 12 cards revealed I just drew 3 sorceries, 3 lands and 6 1/1 elves). In front of a batterskull and a vendillion/aven, I drew archdruid to be able to win with 9 creatures (I wouldn't be able to without archdruid)

It sounds like almost all of your problems could be solved by finding a way to make the deck faster and/or squeezing in some nature's claims.  Of course this is easier said then done...

I'm not really sold on genesis wave or emrakul belonging in this deck.  Both require enormous amounts of mana in order to be effective and at that point I feel they are a win more.  

Craterhoof is better than regal force.  A card that physically kills your opponent should definitely be played over one that just draws you a bunch of cards (I've even had a number of games where regal force would've been suicide to play).  

Green Sun's zenith is a pretty big card that is missing from your list.  Even while I was playing glimpse I found myself wanting it more than pact every time.  Being able to use it and not have to go off that turn is a huge upside to it when you compare the two.  Zenith provides such great constancy to the deck and also allows you to run more singletons.

For reference here is where my list stands currently:
Llanowars:
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Fyndhorn Elves

Card advantage:
4 Wirewood Hivemaster
4 Skullclamp
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary

Initial mana sources:
4 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald

Combo cards:
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Gaea's Cradle

Zenith and targets:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Priest of Titania
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader


SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Viridian Zealot
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze

The only two match ups that really cause it any issue are long and shops.  I feel like it is favored against everything else.

[xouman]

Ummmm, that list seems really solid, probably more than mine (but it's more expensive too because cradles and 2 pack pieces :p)

Craterhoof is way better than regal force if my creatures are untapped, but most of the time they are not. However if you play hivemaster I can expect you to have lots of untapped insects. In that case yes, craterhoof is a win condition for the price of a drawer. In my build regal force enters in T3 providing T2 titania or archdruid. With a bit of luck I can win on the spot (60% of the time? 70%?) providing I drew a quirion/symbiote or I had nettle heritage engine online.

GSZ is the key of this build along hivemaster. both are engines and I don't play them. That's why you play skullclamp where I play glimpse. GSZ provides versatility, allowing easy switches from combo to aggro and viceversa.

I just find two *problems* in this deck: little card drawing and less capacity to create mana.

Card drawing is limited to skullclamp (a bomb) and visionary (slow). I understand that hivemaster creates a horde of insects, but they take few turns to win without skullclamp.

Cradle creates a nice amount of mana, but GSZ and skullclamp demand a lot, and you are reliying on heritage druid (plus fetched priest/archdruid). It's that easy to combo in T3 without heritage?

About the side, cage breaks GSZ (also genesis wave). I side out wave against dredge and oath, do you also side out GSZ? Claim is better in your build (because of GSZ, cotv 1 is not a big problem), and ooze was on my mind too. I prefer relic > trap because card draw, and it's playable against creatureless gush.

i suspect that if I play this deck I would get quite convinced about it, though. I'll try it any of these nights, thanks for the list

[msg67183]

Craterhoof doesn't need other creatures untapped to win, you can win with just him since he has Haste. I've won goldfishes with swinging with 1 creature be it Craterhoof, or dropping Ezuri and Overrunning multiple times. I also don't play Mox Emerald or Black Lotus and only 2 Cradles. I just play another Fetch and 2 Forests. I don't think power is necessary, if I had them they would be in the deck obviously.

My list is slightly different from vaughnbros, mostly cards out of the board:

My board is:

4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Mental Misstep
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Glissa Sunseeker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Caustic Wasps

[vaughnbros]

Ummmm, that list seems really solid, probably more than mine (but it's more expensive too because cradles and 2 pack pieces :p)

You could cut the power for forests and cradles for maybe a forest and a couple more priestess if you don't have access to them.

GSZ is the key of this build along hivemaster. both are engines and I don't play them. That's why you play skullclamp where I play glimpse. GSZ provides versatility, allowing easy switches from combo to aggro and viceversa.

Yes zenith is the card here.  It really smooths out the deck finding you want you need when you need it.

Card drawing is limited to skullclamp (a bomb) and visionary (slow). I understand that hivemaster creates a horde of insects, but they take few turns to win without skullclamp.

Yeh without clamp or visionary/symbiote online you are typically forced to enter into an aggro strategy.  I initially had glimpse and liked it, but the more I played the more I hated it.  I came to the conclusion that its really just a win more.  Basically its only great if I have a ton of elves in hand and a bunch of mana in which case I'm probably better of with something else.

Cradle creates a nice amount of mana, but GSZ and skullclamp demand a lot, and you are reliying on heritage druid (plus fetched priest/archdruid). It's that easy to combo in T3 without heritage?

Its very difficult to combo without getting heritage and nettle online at some point during your big turn.  Luckily with GSZ it is effectively running 8 copies of each.  You are running more big mana elves.  I'm running more of the llanowars.  I like them as they give me a much greater chance to have big turn 2s.

About the side, cage breaks GSZ (also genesis wave). I side out wave against dredge and oath, do you also side out GSZ? Claim is better in your build (because of GSZ, cotv 1 is not a big problem), and ooze was on my mind too. I prefer relic > trap because card draw, and it's playable against creatureless gush.

Cage is a necessary evil against dredge and oath.  In my sideboard plan I don't cut the zeniths since it increases my outs when I don't have cage.  Although you may be right in boarding them out.  Relic is definitely an option too if you want more board for other decks, I just like trap since a well timed one can be a much bigger blow out against dredge and it doesn't cost me mana.

i suspect that if I play this deck I would get quite convinced about it, though. I'll try it any of these nights, thanks for the list

You're welcome

[xouman]

Ok, ok, I catch it, I should switch to GSZ, skullclamp and hivemaster :p GSZ provides flexibility, facilites combo, dodges cotv. Hivemaster gives lots of extra tokens. skullclamp is way better than glimpse or genesis wave with those choices. I just miss more card draw (I cannot imagine winning before T5 without card drawing, even without counters or killed elves)

btw, glimpse usually works well with a couple of elves, does not need lots to run. A typical T3 with glimpse in hand and llanowar+priest/archdruid in table is glimpse, elf, elf, tap priest/archdruid, elf, elf. At this point you will like have a

1-symbiote to replay creatures and untap titania
2-another glimpse to get double draw from last elves
3-pact to some creature
4-play a regal force/wave if there is enough mana
5-likely win on the spot if staff or greaves have appeared

because of the high amount of elves and lots of mana created, it's hard to struggle on mana. if glimpse is countered, there is a good chance of playing a T4 regal force/wave. But I'm really gonna try your builds

[msg67183]

I usually get turn 3 wins out of this deck. Glimpse of Nature is win more, it fizzles a lot more than Skullclamp, and its not a dude...
Regal Force is great. I had it in my build until I realized that I could create 20+ tokens off Hivemaster (they stack) then I switched it for Craterhoof Behemoth because he IS that "win this turn" card you speak of.

[xouman]

I just checked last Bloomsburg top and have found this:

Quarter-Finalist – Steven Thompson
“Get Hoofed"

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Skullclamp
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Priest of Titania
3 Natural Order
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothils
1 Windswept Heath
2 Gaea’s Cradle

SB:
4 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Creeping Corrosion
3 Viridian Shaman
2 Naturalize


traditional 8 drawers (glimpses+skullclamp), natural order to search but no gsz, pact or fauna. Lone behemoth as wincon other than attacking with 1/1s. no caverns, no hivemaster, no genesis wave, no archdruid, no ezuri.

Seems the fastest elves!! deck if unmolested, with some T2 wins and awful lot of T3.

cotv on T1 breaks the deck. misstep hurts a lot since it counters all our card drawers. natural order is a bit weird, since it does not seem definitive unless you have already combo (and then you have 9 mana for GSZ, right?)

It's similar to the first versions of elves that I tested, and the quickness is a huge factor. besides, it add black, to take profit of drs (it's better in a more controllish build, and I'll play mystic in his place) and specially abrupt decay. abrupt decay should take cotv, oath, canonist and other nasty things.

[msg67183]

I just checked last Bloomsburg top and have found this:

Quarter-Finalist – Steven Thompson
“Get Hoofed"

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Skullclamp
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Priest of Titania
3 Natural Order
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Bayou
5 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothils
1 Windswept Heath
2 Gaea’s Cradle

SB:
4 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Creeping Corrosion
3 Viridian Shaman
2 Naturalize


traditional 8 drawers (glimpses+skullclamp), natural order to search but no gsz, pact or fauna. Lone behemoth as wincon other than attacking with 1/1s. no caverns, no hivemaster, no genesis wave, no archdruid, no ezuri.

Seems the fastest elves!! deck if unmolested, with some T2 wins and awful lot of T3.

cotv on T1 breaks the deck. misstep hurts a lot since it counters all our card drawers. natural order is a bit weird, since it does not seem definitive unless you have already combo (and then you have 9 mana for GSZ, right?)

It's similar to the first versions of elves that I tested, and the quickness is a huge factor. besides, it add black, to take profit of drs (it's better in a more controllish build, and I'll play mystic in his place) and specially abrupt decay. abrupt decay should take cotv, oath, canonist and other nasty things.

I played against Steven in the Swiss and Top 8 of this tournament. Playing him was the reason I switched Regal Force to Craterhoof in my list. He turn 3 killed me by Natural Ordering Craterhoof into play through 2 Thorn of Amethyst and beat me for exact damage through a Wurmcoil Engine in game 1. Craterhoof is superior to Emrakul, it is easier to cast, and can be searched for either by Pact, GSZ or Natural Order.

[xouman]

I've been looking for cards to answer Blazing Archon, but not limited to creatures. The best answer I have found is Spine of Ish Sah. With high amount of mana, symbiote and viridian shaman, it's a reusable vindicate. While elves does not want at all this kind of play (the idea is to combo aggressively, no to play reactive answers), I got a bit fustrated about not having any card between 75 to answer blazing archon, even when I got infinite mana, infinite lives and emrakul.

Does spine worth a place in the 75? It can be played by turn 3 if needed (under little disruption), but I can only see it as a desperate measure. A better choice can be karn liberated (just a more expensive), a win condition by itself.

[xouman]

@vaughnbros: As I said, I tested your list. It's probably my fault due to lack of skill, but I'm struggling to have solid plays. I can't said I have tested it for a long run, but these are my first opinions:

-Best card in the deck is hivemaster. All the matches I have won (against AI, not the best one but decent for some decks) have been with insects but two. The other two matches are with a behemoth (paid with titania) an aggro strike with archdruid.

-Skullclamp is slower than I remember. Unless I have at least 2 nettles and 1 heritage druid, the engine cannot go infinite in one turn

-I usually have low mana to invest on ezuri. At best 1 activation unless I have titania or archdruid. Great in slow matches, specially against aggro.

-Visionary+symbiote is a solid pair -no surprise-, but slow.

-High number of T1 plays means little trouble getting 3 mana on T2. But T2 is nothing special, typically hivemaster + elf. On T3 I pray for a resolved skullclamp or a visionary, otherwise I'm steadily creating an army of unimpressive 1/1 critters.


Of course, there is a problem: I'm not using lotus, moxen or cradles, and I'm afraid the difference is quite high. A T3 cradle can easily give 6 mana, meaning lot of activations with skullclamp, a replayed visionary with symbiote, a pump bonus with ezuri...

I would test the deck again (in fact I have bough behemoth, gsz's and hivemasters), but at this point I'm closer to my old build. Your build is probably more solid, but seems less broken in my eyes, or just less suitable to my style of play.

[xouman]

Another mediocre result for elves. I'll do another unimpressive report just to inspire people to do the same but better, I love to read reports.

I like to switch decks regularly, and since I played TMWA last month and I had no time to test, I played nearly the same list as 2 months before. I wanted to try gsz, skullclamp and wirewood hivemaster, but had no time to test it against the wall and I only did 2 changes. This was the list:

11 forest
4 cavern of souls
4 elvish archdruid
4 priest of titania
2 llanowar elves
3 fyndhorn elves
3 elvish mystic
4 heritage druid
4 nettle sentinel
3 wirewood symbiote
1 quirion ranger
3 elvish visionary
1 fauna shaman
1 viridian zealot
1 regal force
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 glimpse of nature
3 genesis wave
2 pact of summoning
1 staff of domination
1 lightning greaves

-2 arbor elf, -1 llanowar elf, -1 quirion elves, -1 viridian shaman
+3 elvish mystic, +1 wirewood symbiote, +1 elvish visionary

->Arbor elf for elvish mystic is a strict improvement. I prefer to play 3 mysic, 3 fyndhorn, 2 llanowar for revokers.
->1 quirion for 1 symbiote to defend better from removal and take profit from third visionary
->named visionary better than a viridian, usually the worst creature.

sb
1 ezuri, renegade leader
1 forest
1 caller of the claw
3 thorn of ametyst
3 viridian shaman
4 grafdigger's cage
2 relic of progenitus

-1 forest, -1 caller of the claw, -3 thorn of ametyst, -1 viridian shaman
+2 nature's claim, +1 vexing susher, +1 dosan the falling leaf, +1 seal of primordium, +1 krosan grip

I abandon the forest because I think the mud pairing is slighly favorable (we will find it later if it's or not). Caller is poor on combo builds, symbiote is decent defending from removal and does not demand available mana. Thorn is just good against storm, there is little around and playing so few hate would atract their counterspells. I included 4 anti enchantment/anti artifact hate (oath is my bane) and 2 anti counterspells cards.


Round 1 MUD (1-2, 0 points)
I have never played this guy since it's his second vintage tournament. I gain the die and develope my manabase. He plays a thorn iirc, and a T2 wurmcoil, that connects in T3. Next turn I play a big glimpse into emrakul after drawing 30 cards or more.
In game 2 he opens with T1 golem, T2 metamorph. I cannot do anything of course.
I have nice hand, and when he plays cotv on 1, I'm pretty ok with priest and fauna shaman in hand plus a mana elf in play. When he plays revoker on my priest, I still have fauna in hand to find for viridian shaman 2 turns later. When he plays metamorph revoking fauna shaman, and I haven't drawn a cavern to play my 1cc elves, I'm pretty screwed. Then a kuldotha, that fetches for a hellkite, seals the deal. Of course I didn't draw any artifact hate in all that time... I really thought I was going to win that game.

Round 2 BUG (1-2, 0 points)
A quick confidant gives him advantage. I cannot find the cavern so his counters+snapcaster give him the game.
He counters my first 2 elves, but scoops as he cannot find the second mana source when I play the third elf.
After 6 turns or so, I play 12cc genesis wave for no gas and I have to pass the turn. I was at 5, he had 2 drs in play and just 3 instants/sorceries in graves. Had the genesis wave been a little better, I could have won in the spot.

Round 3MUD (1-2, 0 points)
He plays Trinisphere, thorn, revoker, tangle x2, sphere, crucible, golem and crucible. In the process I had some mana elves, nettle+heritage, and when he plays the late golem I have 6 mana and play archdruid for 5. A couple of turns later I'm at 8 and I play genesis wave that brings a staff ftw.
He opens with T1 golem, T2 metamorph. I have a deja vu.
In third match I keep a hand with lots of mana but little gas after a mulligan. He plays T2 wurmcoil, T3 wurmcoil, T4 wurmcoil iirc. While I'm quite happy to face that with a normal hand I just draw 1 viridian as hate and 1 symbiote, but cannot have them in the same turn and I die with really poor draws.

At that point, one player asks me about the deck performance and the small chances to win any game. I try to explain him that the deck is fully capable to win rounds, but he does not seem really convinced, and my 0 points are a valid point for him... I wonder if the other build (gsz, hivemaster, skullclamp) would be any better, and while hivemaster would had help in last game, I'm not sold on anything...


Round 4 heavy Uw control (2-1, 3 points)
I win the dice and start slow. He has T1 library and can play counters for my 2 elves. When I get a cavern I can play safely 1 elf by turn, until I play genesis wave for GGG+7. That wave is a fail since it gives 3 lands, 1 pact, 1 wave, 2 cc1 elves. he gets explosives on 1, that kill 3 elves, and trades 1 vendillion for 1 archdruid, but I had another and lots of little attacks get him.
In game 2, I don't see a land in 7 cards, neither 6, 5 or 4. I keep the hand waiting for a land, but after his T3 jace he controls my top and I cannot draw a land in all the match.
In game 3, I have T1 cavern and it's enough for an aggro victory. I'm not sure which were his win conditions other than jace, because he revealed his hand and was filled with counterspells.

Round 5 GW hatebears (2-1, 6 points)
He did top8 last month with same deck, but today his performance is being poor, like mine.
He opens with Hierarch, then leonine+ghost quarter, qasali + ghost quarter, thalia, void of resurgence, aven mindcensor, plus a swords or path... I never get in the game.
In second game, I play emrakul with priest x2 and archdruid in T5.
In third game, he opens with land, spirit guide for sfm->sofi. He plays T2 thalia, T3 sofi. In the middle I have developed manabase and have wirewood symbiote + elvish visionary to block equipped creatures with sofi and draw. Staff of domination wins the game.

Round 6 RUG pyromancers (2-1, 9 points)
He tells me he is having very bad luck and he is going to recover from it against me.
In first game, he wins the die, plays ancestral on my upkeep. Missteps my first elf, plays tarmo, gush... yes, he has recovered some luck  :p
In second game he gets mana screwed, even with two preordains. I win in the aggro route.
In final game he has decent hand, but does an important missplay. At some point I have 4 elves and relic of progenitus in play. Both of us are tapped and attacks with a tarmo. Quirion untaps an elf, activate relic, clean grave, block tarmo and kill it. While tarmo is not really important, he has a snapcaster that loses value, and that play gets him mentally out of the game. A small genesis wave (GGG+4) finds staff that wins the game.


Overall, a regular performance. 3 rounds won, 3 lost. 9 games won, 9 lost. No round was unwinnable, and no round was a walk for me.

Top 3 cards of the day:

1st: cavern. it was key in 4th round and important in 6th round. Had I a cavern in 2nd round, it would have been another game. Impressive.

2nd: staff of domination. It appeared 3 times. 2 of them it was an autowin, the other it allowed searching for a priest/archdruid and win.

3rd: wirewood+visionary. They performed wonderful together. At the end of your turn I bounce visionary, play it in my turn, bounce again, play it again. 4mana, 2 extra cards. Sweet, and works wonders with heritage too. I increased both from 2 to 3, and I would have to test them at full 4.


Worst 3 cards of the day:

1st: nettle sentinel+heritage druid. I think I NEVER got them running, other than 1st game (that was already quite won). They have been solid in every each tournament, but always got one or another or just hadn't 3 elves at the same time.

2rd: genesis wave. lots of "small" waves were poor. specially hurts the wave on 3rd match of second round, since it was win or lose.

3rd: summoner's pact. To tell the truth this is not fair, because i drew it few times, but never was an impressive top deck.


I never played regal force outside first match, most games were won in aggro mode and not combo, nettle+heritage just happened once, I had few early glimpses...quite weird tournament.

[msg67183]

Like I have said before, I view Elves as an Aggro deck that has the potential to go Combo, not a Combo deck with a Aggro Plan B.
I still recommend my list, when I have played against Workshops, I have gone 5-2 in games... Wirewood Symbiote plus Viridian Shaman is the best thing you can do, since both are available via GSZ.

Craterhoof is still the best win con of the deck in my opinion, available via GSZ, doesn't require a big comboey turn, and allows you to play Cavern of Souls and name Beast! (I have done this against Landstill)

I wish you luck with the Little Green Men, and I hope they serve me well at Vintage Champs this weekend!

[xouman]

Yes, I wonder if your configuration would have performed better. Here in LCV there is more aggro than in other metas, so Combo>Aggro is better imho. Besides, people have Pyromancer in mind and would be well prepared to hivemaster.

I won GW because of combo, not because of aggro (I would lost otherwise). Wirewood + viridian is on my book (however I dropped one viridian because of oath), but when I got them in hand at the same time, I hadn't enough mana because of tangle or trinisphere, cannot remember.

GSZ is the card I am more afraid to play. Cavern was all star against blue, and gsz would make opponent counterwall (REALLY common here, lots of people play 12-14 counters) relevant. If I had to play GSZ, I'd also play at least 1 xantid.

Good luck in your champs, I'd be expectant for a report

[xouman]

Another tournament, another necromancy post (hey, it's not my fault that people does not play elves or post here isn't it?) Another mediocre result? Continue reading and find it :p

By the start of the month I was close to buy a P8 (P9 - twister), but finally didn't agreed. I have a medium pool of playable cards but few duals and fetchlands, and no power, so I'm pretty limited. I was again between TMWA and Elves, the only two "vintage decks" (with a tribal rogues deck that I sleeved 5 years ago and hasn't unsleeved), and elves is a bit more fun.

I wanted to play GSZ. Lots of people say that's probably the best card of the deck, I wasn't sold but I had to try. I tested again the version with skullclamp and hivemaster, but found it really dependant on skullclamp to combo, and with deluges around i prefer something with instawins

11 forest
4 cavern of souls
1 dryad arbor  (+1)
2 elvish archdruid  (-1)
1 edric, spymaster of trest (+1)
4 priest of titania
2 llanowar elves
3 fyndhorn elves
3 elvish mystic
3 heritage druid  (-1)
4 nettle sentinel
3 wirewood symbiote
1 quirion ranger
3 elvish visionary
0 fauna shaman  (-1)
1 viridian zealot
1 regal force
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 glimpse of nature
2 genesis wave   (-1)
0 pact of summoning  (-2)
4 Green sun's zenith (+4)
1 staff of domination
1 lightning greaves


Brief explanation: gsz is the biggest change. Dryad arbor is the fist obvious inclusion: I go up from 8 llanowars to 12 (loosely speaking). I cut archdruids to 2, because I want the best T3 possible, and while gsz for titania on T2 is possible and quite common, for archdruid it's not. One less heritage: we never want more than 1, and the true mana engine are priests+archdruids. When I needed one, I zenithed it. One less genesis, it's a pity to have them countered once you have been tapped out. One Edric, as one of the primary targets for zenith, and playable with caverns. No pacts because of gsz.


sb
0 ezuri, renegade leader (-1)
0 forest  (-1)
1 caller of the claw
0 thorn of ametyst (-3)
2 viridian shaman (-1)
4 grafdigger's cage
2 relic of progenitus
1 mana crypt (+1)
2 nature's claim (+2)
1 seal or primordium (+1)
1 vexing susher (+1)
1 dosan the falling leaf (+1)


Brief explanation: No ezuri, because aggro pairing is already good enough. No forest, but a mana crypt, the ONLY answer to T1 golem followed by other spheres. One less viridian shaman, but 2 claims, 1 seal, because of mud and specially oath. vexing susher and dosan fight the heavy control decks with lots of removal. No thorns, because pure storm is low here, and it's not a definitive card.



R1-1: We played last tournament and he was on mud. I have a hand with 3 lands and a couple of mana elves so I'm happy. I win the dice and open with forest, elf. he plays polluted, and I have to think my strategy again. several turns later I have exactly 15 mana with priest+quirion, 2+1 (the bounced) forests and a couple of mana elves. Emrakul appears.

R1-2: He mulligans twice and I have a pretty decent hand.Soon I have 3-4 elves and he has a confidant. I'm pretty afraid of removal because he has cards in hand and seems confidant. I zenith for edric instead archdruid, so I can have my hand full. A couple of turns later he dies without doing pretty much anything. (2-0)
It seems he was on something with pyromancers (didn't see any, just a volcanic). He didn't draw anything in both matches...
(2-0 in matches, 3 points)


R2-1 (Tezz, I know): I play mana+elf or maybe gsz->dryad, he opens with 5 stones including key and sdt. In a couple of turns he takes all the turns, but I ask him to kill me so I can discover his win conditions.
Well, I miss the null rods that nearly always stay out at the last moment. In a meta with lots of tezz or metalworkers, I'd probably play them. I just side in a couple of viridian shaman.

R2-2: I open with cavern->elf, he plays sapphire, land. I play archdruid and pass the turn but he says, wait a moment... I'd like 3 mana for my next turn. I'm a bit astonished, but he drains it. Well, maybe it's not a bad play at all if he has tezz. I pass the turn and he says the archdruid it's out, I point the cavern to him and he says he didn't realized the cavern. I say he can keep the drain if he want (we are friends), or stay with the 3 mana. He prefers this. In his turn he has the second land, the tezz, fetches lotus, and with the third land and the lotus plays jace. Just a common hand (2 lands, sapphire, drain, tezz, jace). The jace bounces the archdruid. In my turn, I open with glimpse. Oh dear, I miss a lot the archdruid! I play creature, creature, heritage. tap them all, and play symbiote and a visionary. untap with symbiote, play creature. Still no sentinels. Play/fetch quirion, draw a little more, and with my last 3 mana I have to play archdruid or viridian (just on sapphire). So I decide to play archdruid and win next turn if he does not win on the spot. He untaps, brainstorms with jace, find a top and plays it. top does not see anything, plays fetch. tops again finds something (tinker, probably), and tezz seals the deal. well, that was close.
(2-2 in matches, 3 points)

R3-1 (MUD): he always plays mud. He is a french player that sometimes comes with one or more friends and I know 99% what he is playing. I win the dice and slowly create an empire. he revokes my first llanowar, next turn he plays metalworker, and next turn BSC, showing kuldotha and golem. With BSC in play, I play regal force, drawing like 5 cards. He attacks with bsc, regal force blocks, and plays kuldotha and golem. I have priest and archdruid in table, and play a big genesis wave that finds staff ftw. With normal hands like those, I have little trouble against Aggro Mud. Even a chalice does not annoy me because of caverns, gsz and lots of elves with CC2 and CC3.

R3-2: first hand just has 1 land, i can't keep it. second hand also 1 land. third hand no land at all. fourth hand just one land, and it's a cavern. well, keep it. he opens with trinisphere. I don't draw land. he plays wurmcoil.

R3-3: I keep a quite bad hand, with 2 lands and a claim. I have to try. I have no first turn elf, but he does have the mws+sol ring+golem. Well, I draw a mana elf and play it with forest and cavern over the claim. he wastes the cavern (tragic) and attacks. he plays kuldotha. fyndhorn and the lone forest play claim on golem. he plays something else. I didn't draw another mana source or hate and die to BSC.
In this last match the deck abandoned me. while T1 golem is hard to overcome, I was on the play, and a "normal hand" of T1 forest mana elf, T2 titania (or at least other elf) makes T3 open to play hate or business, as I decide. with more mana I'd claimed kuldotha, and kill golem later. Or just play viridian on golem, let BSC enter, block it with viridian and try to win next turn. I know mud is powerful and reliable, but also elves have lots of redundancy and good tools to face Aggro mud. On the play I should win more than 60% of the time. On the draw... well, I have won, but I have less than 30 for sure, maybe 20%.
(3-4 in matches, 3 points)

R4-1: Last time she was on clerics, a good pairing on paper. She wins the dice and opens with vial, and next turn another vial. first vial brings an abolisher and she has wasted all his cards after lots of lands and a misstep. In the meaning I have some elves, priest and I play staff overconfident and pass the turn. She draws a relic warder and my plan goes out, because she has two 2/2 and I have small creatures. she starts drawing creatures, including 2 canonists, and my confidence starts to decrease while I draw lands. she attacks with abolisher and one canonist and I kill the canonist. when she plays mother of runes, I play glimpse, and I already have zealot in play. I try to play a creature after glimpse but she points the canonist and i have to sacrifice zealot for her. glimpse works wonderful and win in the same turn.
I decide to side in viridians, because canonist could be a trouble.

R4-2: she opens again with vial. I don't have much notes, but I remember playing glimpse (probably 2), having heritage + nettle engine. after playing lots of creatures and having 16 mana, emrakul wins on the spot. She drawn lots of lands in both matches.
(5-4 in matches, 6 points)

Time to go to eat. It's a new local for the tournament and we don't know the places to eat, but there is just in front of us a local that does "empanadas argentinas" and it's more than enough for breakfast after round 2 and lunch after round 4.


R5-1: oh, one of my banes. He always win me. I keep a mediocre hand, but he plays a usea, sdt and seems to fail to play second land, so I may have an opportunity. I open slow in aggro mode but he pretty quickly finds vault+key while he is still at 8. I managed to play greaves and priest, but when I was equipping it he bolted both the priest and my hopes.
R5-2Next match my deck also abandons me. Just one land and no mana elf, but 2 gsz. I play gsz for dryad arbor and T2 fyndhorn (instead visionary). He plays toxic deluge killing arbor and fyndhorn. then he plays confidant. I never get the second forest while CC2 elves, genesis wave, gsz... stay in my hand.
(5-6 in matches, 6 points)

Oh, so the deck abandoned me, specially second hand. It should be close to 50%-50% imho, but he is far better than me and has played against elves lots of times in other formats. toxic deluge crushed me (even it was just a 1x2)


R6-1: he knows I play elves, but i don't know what is he playing. In first match he counters everything and kills other thinks with decays and snapcasters while confidant gives him lots of advantage. After a looong game he is still at 8 despite confidant ( I never had more creatures than him)
R6-2: He is a bit in aggro mode with confidant in play, and my life pass from 20 to 17, to 10, probably involving tarmogoyf. A medium genesis wave with vexing susher in play and 1 mana open (8+GGG) get staff of domination, or just edric. I think he was mana screwed despite confidant.
R6-3: quick confidant again, that he has to decay when he is at 6. in the meaning I had time to a suicidal attack (with 2 symbiotes) that costed me 2 stupid kills for 1 life, plus a decayed symbiote. at one point he has 2 tarmos 4/5 and snapcaster, an attack with them after playing time walk. Playing time walk before attack is a bad decision if he knows I can't counter it, because I block one tarmo with susher, nettle and mystic (mystic survives) and I trade heritage for snapcaster. Next turn he cannot attack, and soon after I play glimpe with just one of two creatures but they get visionary and many more. With a gsz I fetch for archdruid and attack for the win.
bug is tricky because of decay, confidant and snapcaster card advantage, and tarmo against slow hands, but it's winnable.
(7-7 in matches, 9 points)


Yes, another mediocre result. And this time elves! was not the cheapest deck of the field (49 people), there was at least one White Trash that went undefeated in the swiss (4-0 and then two id's). Still it's a deck capable of winning any pairing with a bit of luck. I felt very confidant against clerics, and overwhelmed by tezz (in part because of broken hands). Against aggro mud I felt I had to win but lost because of trinisphere and then the absence of mana (either lands or mana elves), probably by bad mulligan decisions. against grixis won one easily and got crushed on another, because draws matter. and against bug I won, but could have lost as previous 2 times.

Edric was nice a couple of times, but another couple of times stayed in my hand (just once because I didn't have blue mana).
gsz was countered lots of times. More than once I'd prefered a mana elf, but rarely I'd prefer a pact.
Genesis wave is a true finisher. While it can be countered, if it resolves is usually gg, or at least big advantage.
Staff of domination was always gg but the time I played it without enough mana and relic warder took it. I have to try more staffs or umbral mantle
I didn't miss heritage. Maybe in the fifth round, but I had just 2 elfs in play so heritage wouldn't make a difference.
Archdruid is always a fabulous top deck and having it to 2 is probably a bad decission. I prefer priest for combo because she comes a bit early, but in aggro mode archdruid is wonderful.
I was pretty disappointed with dryad arbor. It had to be the 9-12 llanowar, but I drew it loooots of times and was a time walk for my opponent. Other times it was wasted and deluged.
Visionary+symbiote are cool. In long games they give the edge.
Lone quirion is great! I don't think I need the second, but the singleton is much appreciated.
greaves are a bad card that enables instawins. I won't play it without priests and archdruids, but it also allows emrakul to attack in the same turn, in cases where the opponent has lots of creatures or permanents.


And that's all. What a big report for a budget deck and a stupid performance XDDDD.

next time if I get misty rainforests and tropicals, I'd probably try hivemaster with beck/call.

[Protoaddict]

Has anyone tried Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in this list?

It basically functions as the 5th Gaea's cradle, if you want a list that has 5 cradles. Probably something that untaps lands like rangers.

Just a thought in any case

[xouman]

Another year, yet the same deck. I got the P9 but still played elves again (I spent little time on other cards or looking for decks to play. I prefer to talk here about any card or deck that mess with my real cards)

So yesterday I decided to play elves. At first I wanted to play something like this

1 black lotus
1 mox sapphire
1 mox emmerald
4 cavern of souls
4 tropical island
4 misty rainforest
1 forest
1 dryad arbor

4 beck/call
1 edric, spymaster of trest
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk

4 wirewood hivemaster
4 wirewood symbiote
4 elvish visionary
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
4 gsz
8 llanowars
1 craterhoof behemoth
1 priest of titania
2 skullclamp

In fact, the version I tested didn't include skullclamps, but regal force and something else. I'm too used to the other version and probably I played it really bad, but I saw those points:

-Often I didn't have blue mana. Most of the mana comes from creatures and before having heritage online I have to tap lands.

-It's not easy to get enough mana for craterhoof. Regal force was tricky also. Even skullclamp engine. Just 1 titania, so many non-basics... all-in with heritage-sentinel engine.

-2 mana from beck means little mana for anything else, without priest/archdruid. mana is REALLY tight

So, I was winning consistently in turn 4-5, too slow. Playing beck with hivemaster in play is brutal, but we are talking about T3 as best (T1 mana elf, T2 hivemaster, T3 beck with just 1 or 2 mana open, not much), probably later to ensure heritage at the table

At 23h I tried again last build, was quite happy after several hands, and folded it:

11 forest
4 cavern of souls
1 dryad arbor
3 elvish archdruid  (+1)
1 edric, spymaster of trest
4 priest of titania
2 llanowar elves
3 fyndhorn elves
3 elvish mystic
3 heritage druid
4 nettle sentinel
3 wirewood symbiote
1 quirion ranger
3 elvish visionary
1 viridian zealot
0 regal force (-1)
1 craterhoof behemoth (+1)
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 glimpse of nature
1 genesis wave   (-1)
4 Green sun's zenith
1 staff of domination
1 lightning greaves


sb
1 ezuri, renegade leader (+1)
0 caller of the claw (-1)
2 thorn of ametyst (+2)
3 viridian shaman (+1)
4 grafdigger's cage
2 relic of progenitus
1 mana crypt (+1)
0 nature's claim (-2)
0 seal or primordium (-1)
0 vexing susher (-1)
1 dosan the falling leaf
1 imperious perfect (+1)


1st round RUG
I open with mana elf. He has a delver, brainstorms on T2 and transforms it. When he drops a tarmogoyf I have like 5 small elves (after a small genesis wave) and he has his delver, we are both at 11. I draw a sixth elf an attack, getting him to 4 (he fetched 3 lands to play fow, but that elf was played with a cavern). he killed some elves with tarmo and bolt but at least i got him just to 2 two turns later.
In the second game he opens with 0/1 tarmo, next turn walk attacking for 1 and another tarmo. he fows an elf to have two 3/4's, and I play titania and staff. he plays a trygon, I'm at 1 but I have some elves in hand titania+staff I go infinite.
(2-0, 3 points)

2nd round Nim Mud
He wins the dice and opens with thorn. I'm fine, forest manaelf. he plays staff of nin. oh oh. ok, elvish visionary and nettle next turns. i get an archdruid (so the staff is just a card drawer and a symbiote killer) but he gets the second staff of nim in the same turn. let's go to the second
I open with mana elf, he plays lodestone. I play viridian zealot, he plays revoker on zealot+lodestone (nice open). I play titania, so I'm still in the game. He plays duplicant+kuldotha. Yes, I concede.
This is probably the worst mud deck I could face, and he got like god hands imho. It's ok, this is vintage
(0-2, 3 points)

3rd round Wb hate
He has early cage, then a thalia, next a confidant... in the middle I got an archdruid, a titania and a llanowar. I zenith for a behemoth with both the archdruid and the priest, but he just topdecked swords (he had no cards in hand) and llanowar is not letal, but 3 turns laters he is dead with his own confidant.
Next match I put together 2 archdruid and 1 imperious by turn 4... 4/4 elves is too much for white/black beards
(2-0, 6 points)

4th round dark bomberman
he wins the dice and plays cage, vendillion, aven, auriok+lotus, but have no trinket or spellbomb. In the while I play 2 or 3 elves. A couple of turns later I play glimpse with just 1 or 2 creatures but chain like 7 draws and win next turn.
At this point the deck is working well. no explosive wins with emrakul or T3 wins, but a good mix of aggro and combo, nothing special. and then...
in the second match he has a cage again. i have thorn and nettle, but they are a bit stupid against his auriok, while his confidant punishes him (2 fows in a row) while drawing cards. he swords an archdruid and when he plays explosives at 2 my win condition vanishes. he already had too much advantage and I didn't connect even once.
in the third match I mulligan,and third cage catches me with a gsz AGAIN (i just had 2 after side). by turn 3 or 4 he has auriok, trinket and jace... trinket brough lotus and when jace bounces it it brings spellbomb.
(1-2, 6 points)

5th round UW landstill
in the first match he counters my first 3 menaces and kills my second land. I spend several turns looking for another land while he keeps drawing lands. When I get the land I play titania, next turn archdruid, and he concedes
in round 2 he opens with stanstill, i play llanowar and he missteps it... he gets a delver and flips it with brainstorm in the upkeep, kills all my creatures and wins after getting a batterkull or somethinh lke that (I wast at 9 because of delver)
third match is long, and we arrive to a moment where he has 2 factories and a batterskull, and he is at 20. I have 2 mana elves, 1 archdruid, 6 forests, an emrakul in hand and then I draw a gsz. What would you do?

-behemoth, but I'd attack for 9+6+6. he survives, and next turn he could equip a factory ftw
-archdruid, and next turn I try to hardcast emrakul. the problem is that at least 1 elf is killed, and I'd have 3+3+1+6 mana unless I drew something else. not enough
-edric was removed
-viridian shaman, but he can brough batterskull to hand and he's at 20, has plenty of time
-OR quirion, tap 4 forests, 2 mana elves for 6, archdruid for 4, and then use quirion, return forest, untap archdruid, play forest again and with exactly 15 mana play emrakul!!! yes!!!

so I play gsz for 1 and after starting fectching for quirion I look in the grave... and there is the quirion. oh, dear. well, I get a symbiote and pray for a visionary, another symbiote, staff of domination, gsz, genesis wave, craterhoof, even a glimpse (so I turn later I would have 2 creatures in hand with symbiote). I didn't draw any relevant in the next 2 turns and die.
(1-2, 6 points)

6th round BUG with bolts (he said keeper)
i win the dice, but he lands an early deathrite shaman that prevents my llanowars from attacking. after wome turns he gets a talrand and soon after he had 5 drakes that kill me.
next match I open quite fast, and a glimpse with heritage+sentinel online puts me far ahead.
the third match is similar to first, but he has a T1 library that draws all turns and puts him ahead. another drs, another talrand, and I lose again.
(1-2, 6 points)


The deck started brillantly. With 2-1 and 1-0 in the 4th round, I was quite happy, but then I lost 6 of the next 8 matches. Priest and archdruid are capital and should be protected more. I play dosan against blue, and caverns prevent them to be countered, but still those 2 creatures get all the removal. I didn't lost to tendrils or tinker (quick wins), but to card advantage. how can a deck that has 4 glimpses, 1 genesis wave, 3 visionary+3 symbiotes, 1 edric have card disadvantage so many times?

staff of domination is great. I'm not sure if a second is advised. I'd try umbra mantle, but I wasn't expecting to play elves in a while
emrakul is great too, i simply drew it too few times, or had too few mana (that wasn't common with the same deck in other tournaments)
I missed genesis wave, but it gets countered most of the time and people are siding in cages against me because of it (people laught at it until they face it). in order to play genesis wave I would need something to ensure I could play it. xanthids? dosan? vexing susher?
behemoth looks nice, however it got countered or sworded when it appeared.
edric won one match and helped in another, but a couple of times stayed in my hand. maybe another genesis wave is better?
gsz is crap against cage, gets countered lots of times, is hungry of mana ... probably 4 is not the correct number. but then edric could go away.


summarizing, I wasn't lucky today, or the deck is simply not good enough. It needs to overcome decks in control mode, because against aggro is quicker, but after >3 removal it gets clunky.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I go with A and B.  You didn't seem to have the best luck...but elves is not tier 1.  It can win games, but not a good tourney.  It is too low on disruption and gets hosed by certain cards pretty badly.

[xouman]

Somebody told me once that 'Tier' means how much is a deck played, not how well it works. Of course I agree that elves is not one of the best performers, even potentially. There are lots of decks that should crash elves easily, like that Nim MUD (I couldn't do anything), but elves should win most aggro games, and I'd expect to win games against slow decks without mass removal.

But I'm not crying about the result, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I just wanted to share my experience because I love reading reports, and maybe someone has ideas to improve the deck, or totally discard it.

[Godder]

Basically, the theory behind tiers was around matchups and likelihood of winning tournaments. Tier 1 was supposed to have good matchups against most or all of the field, and be a fair chance of winning any given tournament. However, we banned tier discussion on TMD some time ago, largely because it had this annoying tendency to start interestingly, and then degenerate into flame wars as people couldn't decide what the tiers meant, or what decks went where...