Elves!

[Protoaddict]

What are they doing to beat you? It is the angel, Mental Misstep, etc?

Cause all of those have different answers.

[msg67183]

I try to combo getting a Glimpse through, or just throw guys out to Aggro and he either gets one of the EEs or a Trinket Mage for EE. I'm not that afraid of counters although they are annoying. Play Trinket Mage search up EE kill my guys then Resto Angel T Mage get other EE blow up again is brutal. I did manage to use Ezuri against his Supreme Verdict though so it essentially only killed Ezuri.
I was thinking about playing Archdruid, and possibly Staff of Domination, to skew my CMCs and to add to the Aggro plan. Ezuri is pretty damn strong here as well.

[msg67183]

After looking at my list, I'm not sure Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay are worth the Black Splash.
Here is the Maindeck right now:

3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Priest of Titania
2 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Skullclamp
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Forest

The Maindeck Ezuri is a protection to Engineered Explosives, or other targeted removal. It also helps the Agrro the opponent's face off plan.
The sideboard is looking something like this:

4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Krosan Grip
3 Viridian Shaman
2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll / Dosan the Falling Leaf

Krosan Grip is probably the best answer to EE and Pernicious Deed and it just so happens it is fine against Workshops. The last slot is still being tweaked but I think Dosan can just stomp on control, but Thrun is also strong in that matchup. Only time will tell.
I think cutting black is fine and will just make the deck more consistent.
This is my updated list and I will be testing it to see if it is optimal.

[Vennie]

Is Krosan Grip even playable against shops? even through spheres etc? I always thought that CMC3 is hard to cast when playing against shops.

[msg67183]

When is mana a problem for Elves?

[Vennie]

Maybe when you really need artifact hate on the draw and your shop opponent starts with sphere and and chalice for 1?

[msg67183]

The best artifact hate for Elves is probably:

Viridian Shaman
Nature's Claim
Caustic Wasps
Krosan Grip
Seeds of Innocence
Gleeful Sabotage

Of those a majority cost 3, so why not? Chalice @1 shuts off Claim anyway.

[Protoaddict]

You could try mixing up your CMCs for artifact hate.

Deglammer and Seal of Primordium are both very strong against right right lists.

[msg67183]

The Krosan Grips are mostly for EE and Deed, since it's not only UNCOUNTERABLE but they can't blow them up in response.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

The deed or EE player can blow them up immediately after casting not passing priority back never giving grip a chance. This is how it used to be amyhow. When I played legacy years ago it was a trick to get ee and deed past an opponent running grip. But you must first know the opponent is playing grip to pull this off...

[Samoht]

The deed or EE player can blow them up immediately after casting not passing priority back never giving grip a chance. This is how it used to be amyhow. When I played legacy years ago it was a trick to get ee and deed past an opponent running grip. But you must first know the opponent is playing grip to pull this off...

Yar, you have to announce that you are maintaining priority after the resolution of the spell before casting for it to work though.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Yar, you have to announce that you are maintaining priority after the resolution of the spell before casting for it to work though.

Not true...you have to pass priority when casting, then they have a chance to counter.  If it respolves, it eneters play and you have priority again automatically.  The opponent can't do ANYTHING until you do something first - and if that happens to be activating EE, then you need "rust" or something to stop them, cause grip won't do jack.

[msg67183]

If that's the case then I can't really do anything against EE, since Rust is kinda narrow.

[msg67183]

If Krosan Grip won't allow me to answer EE then may I ask, what cards are good to recover from removal?

[TheWhiteDragon]

If Krosan Grip won't allow me to answer EE then may I ask, what cards are good to recover from removal?

A good deck?

No, but seriously, I'd try deathrites as elves if you fear shops (stops welder crap and adds mana) and if you fear EE, then null rods are good.  If you are facing EE AND deed, then you probably need to start running more varied mana costs or run narrow response cards like Wrap in Vigor

[msg67183]

I was playing Black in my list for Shaman and Abrupt Decay in the board, but I'd rather have mono green for consistency.
Other ideas I have thought of were multiple Ezuri, Asceticism, Caller of the Claw, etc.
The main deck seems pretty damn solid.
The sideboard is currently:
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Viridian Shaman
2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Staff of Domination
1 Thrun the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Empty Slot
The Empty slots could be Caller of the Claw, allowing for an answer to mass removal.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Caller of the claw is fine unless they EoT the EE or Deed or cast perish or such on their turn.  Then it sucks.  i think the 1G - instant - regen all your critters is a better call.  It's even decent when matching aggro.  Triple chump a golem, then tap them to cast a 2 mana spell and save all your critters?  sure.  Hold off aggro for a whole swing and live?  Yeah.

[msg67183]

Caller of the Claw has Flash.

[msg67183]

What is the name of that instant?

[msg67183]

Wrap in Vigor! Found it! That card should definitely be in the board those last 3 slots, maybe even a 4th one.

[rpf5029]

Wrap in Vigor fails against Perish, which is a very realistic sideboard slot.  It is cheaper than Caller of the Claw, though.  Both are very interesting -- I'm interested to see how they work for you. 

I think Deathrite Shaman does serve a very real function in the deck, even though I'm not sure that he messes with Welder very effectively (the creatures, I guess?).  It helps combat the Snapcaster menace, as well as Crucible against both Shops and -- more importantly -- Landstill.  I'm not ready to discount the black splash just yet.

[d8dk32]

I think Deathrite Shaman does serve a very real function in the deck, even though I'm not sure that he messes with Welder very effectively (the creatures, I guess?).  It helps combat the Snapcaster menace, as well as Crucible against both Shops and -- more importantly -- Landstill.  I'm not ready to discount the black splash just yet.
[/quote]

Wrap in Vigor! Found it! That card should definitely be in the board those last 3 slots, maybe even a 4th one.

If you splash black, and want to sideboard Wrap in Vigor (not sure if anyone is actually doing this) you should consider siding Golgari Charm, since it has some additional utility.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Hmm...didn't see caller had flash.  In that case, Caller is better as it dodges thorn, can be a pinch blocker, and gives a slew of 2/2s for a loss of 1/1s. It can also be fetched with elf tutors.  Caller x 4 is the way to go.

[msg67183]

My thought process is as follows:

Cut Thrun to play 4 Caller
Cut 2 Quirion Ranger from the main for 2 Cavern of Souls, since Cavern makes Caller even better against Landstill and Blue Angels and Bomberman, and Cavern allows play through Chalice of the Void.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Running just elves, I see no reason not to have 3-4 caverns in the main already.  I have no idea why you wouldn't use them as almost all your spells are elves.

I'm a huge fan of thrun, but if you think they will play sweepers, his usefulness is minimal.  With 4 caverns, his uncounterability is even less of a bonus, and you run 30 critters, so who cares if they plow/bolt a few.

Caller is a good call.  I'd probably run 1 main, 3 in the sb.

[msg67183]

Well I'm also running Emrakul and Regal Force but Cavern doesn't usually affect them. The reason I decided on 2 Cavern is the fact that I want to blank Wasteland as much as possible, and I'm already running 2 Cradle. But the biggest reason I chose 2 was I currently own 0 and don't like to proxy cards, especially when I want to play in Sanctioned Vintage if given the possibility.

[rpf5029]

Gaea's Cradle shouldn't be considered a "land," so Wasteland should not be an issue in that regard. 

On the bright side, the CMC of the deck should be low enough to dodge Wasteland anyway by selectively fetching.  Hopefully, you won't need to fetch any non-basic forests against decks that run Wasteland anyway. 

3-4 Caller of the Claw seems a bit high to me, but I'm willing to try it out. 

[vaughnbros]

Gush decks now running young pyromancer makes me if the elf version wirewood hivemaster deserves to be included again.  He combos extremely well with clamp and can help tremendously with an aggro plan.

[msg67183]

Gaea's Cradle shouldn't be considered a "land," so Wasteland should not be an issue in that regard. 

On the bright side, the CMC of the deck should be low enough to dodge Wasteland anyway by selectively fetching.  Hopefully, you won't need to fetch any non-basic forests against decks that run Wasteland anyway. 

3-4 Caller of the Claw seems a bit high to me, but I'm willing to try it out. 

Ryan, I noticed your lists were pretty much trying to play against Workshops, well I've noticed quite a decline in Workshops recently, plus I have the best lock against them: 4 Viridian Shaman and 4 Wirewood Symbiote, plus I play Elvish Archdruid to help out the Aggro plan since I side out the combo.
Callers are not for Workshops, they are for decks with mass removal, which seem to be a lot of decks right now, and Cavern makes them even better.

Gush decks now running young pyromancer makes me if the elf version wirewood hivemaster deserves to be included again.  He combos extremely well with clamp and can help tremendously with an aggro plan.

Im really liking Hivemaster, but do not know what to take out of my list. He kinda combos well with Symbiote and he is strong against Workshops in the same regard as Young Puromancer, but when I bring in Archdruid against Workshops, I side out Clamps since they don't work together.

I'm still trying to tweak this list together so bare with me everybody.

[rpf5029]

If you're discounting the Workshop match-up because you have 4 x Symbiote and 4 x Viridian Shaman, you're kidding yourself. I don't really care whether there has been a drop in Shops or not -- Shops will destroy this type of deck 95% of the time no matter what you do.  Elvish Archdruid and Viridian Shaman aren't worth anything if you can't cast them.  Also, I never mentioned bringing in Caller of the Claw against Workshops; if anything, I was responding to the idea that Wrap in Vigor (or Golgari Charm) could be used to profitably gang-block bigger creatures, which may not be the most terrible thing in the world, but probably wouldn't be worth trying to do. 

Workshops will still show up in numbers because it's relatively cheap to play under ten proxy.  If the blue decks are smashing Workshops, and that's why you haven't seen them in the top 8, then that's fine, but that also means that unless you're winning out, you'll be the one facing all the Shop decks in the X-1 or X-2 brackets. 

If it's NOT Workshops that you're worrying about, then it opens more cans-o-worms.  Racing Dredge can be a problem unless the deck is streamlined enough to go off on turn 2 consistently, and many sideboard slots need to be devoted to stopping Dredge--this takes away from the other decks. 

If it's "Big Blue" decks (Grixis, Gush, etc.), Elves has a big problem because it can't interact meaningfully with those types of decks.  They counter the draw spell, making you over-commit to the board, and then sweep the board.  Caller MAY help with that, if you can find one AND keep a Cavern handy.  Without Summoner's Pact or something cute like Fauna Shaman, it's almost too much luck-based to consider consistently.  Or Big Blue will just counter the Elves! player's face off.  Cavern of Souls is surprisingly sub-par when all of your creatures are little 1/1 dorks that don't pose much of a threat.  Many sideboard slots can be used to help with this...

So that's, what, three popular archetypes?  You want 4 - 8 cards against Dredge to beat it regularly; 4 - 8 cards against Shops; and 4 - 8 cards to shore up the Big Blue match up.  We haven't even hit pure combo or Oath of Druids, both of which could use another subset of cards.  That's 12 - 21 cards to bring in already.  On the bright side, you should be smashing most Fish decks pretty handily. 

The point to take home here is that there can't be a strong Elves! deck with the currently accepted shell.  I like that you're trying to board into the aggro plan, but I'm extremely concerned that you don't have enough fast mana to beat Workshops.  The odds of you beating Dredge are extremely small; Grim Long & other Oath decks are probably similar.  Caverns, Archdruids, and Caller of the Claw should give you a pretty healthy match-up against Landstill and Bomberman, and might even help against BUG fish.  various fish decks, but you probably don't need it.  Maybe those match-ups are enough?  I have no idea.  I realize that you can't beat everything all the time.