Nivmagus Elemental

[desolutionist]

This seems awesome with brain freeze

[AmbivalentDuck]

Not quite. Consider it in RUG.  The problem is that it competes pretty directly with Goyf.

I can't imagine playing this in RUG.  Every spell I play is used to either A) disrupt the oponent, or B) used to build incremental advantage.

Right, but RUG supports Flusterstorm and Ancient Grudge. Both good enough for Vintage play on their own, both can trivially provide extra spells after they've already done their job.

Both are meant to stay at the ready until they are needed.

That's because your version is so slow. The earlier the critical turn for the rest of your deck, the better Flusterstorm + Nivmagus Elemental gets.

[Saya]

There are 50 "fluster"s in this page.But i think ground rift is better than flusterstorm if we think only for nivmagus combo.

[xouman]

Ground rift is pretty dead most of the time, while fluster is not.

I think the goal is to play this creature as a turn 1 vanilla, and then grow it if needed, or with countered/uneeded spells. Making a deck around this card sounds as a bad idea, but having an early 5/6 could be devastating for opponent.

[Klep]

I could maybe envision this as a sideboard card against a deck with a heavy permission suite.  The idea of playing a one-drop and then making your opponent choose between not countering your spells or growing your threat is rather attractive.  I'm not sure it's worth following through on though.  I'm definitely pretty skeptical about the idea of "unneeded spells."  After all, if you don't need to be expending your resources to win the game, haven't you already won it?

[xouman]

I mean, if you play cards like hurkyl's, claim, duress or bolt maindeck, don't you prefer in some matches a +2/+2? You can maindeck those cards even they are not great in all pairings, but solid all around. Or if you already played ancestral, mystical/merchant could be better as +2/+2 than fetching a counter. It depends on match state, but remembes this is a 1CC card and this is HUGE. You are in some way transforming opponent counterspells into +2/+2, or if needed.

Nivmagus does not demand sacrificing spells, but it's a great way to do it.

[quicksilvervii]

It might be fun playing a card like brainfreeze on your opponent's end step, but I just can't see this card reliably and consistently doing what you need it to do.  Then you are running cards like brainfreeze when you otherwise wouldn't.

"Not wasting" your extra copies of flusterstorm is nice I guess, but I really can't think of a way right now where the card is both consistent and viable.  That is to say, not saying it won't be.  I like the card just fine but I won't be playing it for a while.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm definitely pretty skeptical about the idea of "unneeded spells."  After all, if you don't need to be expending your resources to win the game, haven't you already won it?

I'm not advocating eating your own Preordains.  I'm instead advocating eating countered spells, "extra" Flusterstorm copies (g1 vs brown any/all Missteps and Flusterstorms become pump spells), and "extra" copies of Ancient Grudge (vs "blue").

[Klep]

I'm definitely pretty skeptical about the idea of "unneeded spells."  After all, if you don't need to be expending your resources to win the game, haven't you already won it?

I'm not advocating eating your own Preordains.  I'm instead advocating eating countered spells, "extra" Flusterstorm copies (g1 vs brown any/all Missteps and Flusterstorms become pump spells), and "extra" copies of Ancient Grudge (vs "blue").

If a big part of your motivation for running a card is that you expect to have a lot of dead cards in your deck in a lot of game ones, I think you may need to work on your deck some more.

[vaughnbros]

A lot of people seem to be attacking this card.  Instead of continuing to trying to combat your posts with speculation I went and tested it as a replacement for tarmogoyf in decks that ran multiple copies of both gush and flusterstorm.  The first list I used was Mike Solymossy's list that won a prelims in gencon.  The second was a bug fish list that ran both bob and gush.  The way I played the card was to play it as early as possible, not before delver but before pretty much anything else, so he was usually a turn 1 play.  Against blue I let him eat any spell that got countered and I didnt need to resolve and if I had a huge turn I would throw down a flusterstorm on my own spell and let him eat it.  Against shops I let him eat dead spells, missteps, flusterstorms, cards hit by chalice of the void.  If I didnt have a huge turn he would usually range from around a 1/2 to a 7/8, depending on how much I was resolving/how many dead cards I was drawing, usuallly tending toward the middle of the range.

Here is the conclusion that I came to from this:

Nivmagus is a card that costs U and parallels the roles of both Tarmogoyf and Empty the Warrens.

He actually costs U or R, but the red is really only relevant when you have a ruby or a mountain out.

Similarities to goyf:
Both can range from a 1/2 to a 7/8 and both tend to be in the middle of that range, making them both usually the biggest creature on the table.
Both are completely vanilla other than being huge.

Differences from goyf:
Nivmagus is U and Goyf is 1G.  That means nivmagus is pretty much always castable on turn 1 and you can fetch a basic island to cast him.  Goyf dodges misstep, but you usually need to expose a nonbasic and you need a mox to drop him turn 1.
Goyf is big right after you play it, Nivmagus needs a turn or two to get going.

Similarities to empty:
Both generate 2 power worth of dudes for each spell.
Both can win off a "mini-storm" and dont need to be fully lethal.

Difference from empty:
Blocking and removing nivmagus is generally much easier.
Nivmagus is usually on the table before the big turn so it is unaffected by summoning sickness.
Nivmagus needs to flusterstorm or another storm spell to go off.
Nivmagus' ability is uncounterable.
Nivmagus costs U versus Empty costs 3R, making it much easier on your mana when storming.

You can refute this all you want, but I am pretty convinced that this card is a better option than goyf and empty in any deck running flusterstorms and gush because of his versatility and that he only costs U, versus needing to have off color mana.

[TinkerRobot]

As I said before, I have high hopes for this. I think the comparison to Tarmogoyf is relevant, but this card is nothing like Empty the Warrens. I see this as being much more viable in control than in Storm combo. The reason storm combo is (or should I say was) good is because of it's overwhelming resistance to counters and removal. I mean, you can't Swords to Plowshares or chump block an Empty the Warrens effectively. You don't want to sit back and dump all the cards in your hand to make this guy a 7/9 or whatever, but if you can get a few spells fed to this guy thoughout a game, it's comparable to RUG players Thought Scouring themselves for value. Also, with this guy, you can attack as a 1/2 and make your opponent play around it's built-in combat trick...

/rant

[vaughnbros]

As I said before, I have high hopes for this. I think the comparison to Tarmogoyf is relevant, but this card is nothing like Empty the Warrens. I see this as being much more viable in control than in Storm combo. The reason storm combo is (or should I say was) good is because of it's overwhelming resistance to counters and removal. I mean, you can't Swords to Plowshares or chump block an Empty the Warrens effectively.

What would you say the role of empty the warrens is in a deck like east coast wins?  Maybe I'm completely off on this because I didnt build the deck, but I always thought the purpose of empty was to put pressure on your opponent or protect yourself with an early mini storm and then you have the option of winning off 1 swing late in the game.  I think this card does both of those things.  Now yes you can't swords, bounce, or chump empty, which is obviously a huge drawback to Nivmagus when you compare them.  However, if I have nivmagus out the turn before I storm you cant counter it, with flusterstorm/mindbreak trap, and it essentially has haste making it better in those aspects for going off.  I also dont even need to be playing red at all, making my 4 color mana base a 3 color one.  It really just gives so many more options on how to play a scenario which I always think is a good thing.

[TinkerRobot]

What would you say the role of empty the warrens is in a deck like east coast wins?  Maybe I'm completely off on this because I didnt build the deck, but I always thought the purpose of empty was to put pressure on your opponent or protect yourself with an early mini storm and then you have the option of winning off 1 swing late in the game.  I think this card does both of those things.  Now yes you can't swords, bounce, or chump empty, which is obviously a huge drawback to Nivmagus when you compare them.  However, if I have nivmagus out the turn before I storm you cant counter it, with flusterstorm/mindbreak trap, and it essentially has haste making it better in those aspects for going off.  I also dont even need to be playing red at all, making my 4 color mana base a 3 color one.  It really just gives so many more options on how to play a scenario which I always think is a good thing.

Your point is a valid one, I guess the reason I don't think this guy goes into storm combo is because once he's on the table, your opponent knows what's up, so to speak. It doesn't seem to hard to play around. I've playtested a few games, but it's still too early to tell what kind of shell this could fit into in vintage, if any at all.

[Lemnear]

This card is a 1cc crossbreed between psychatog and Dryad which are both unplayable atm due to the Meta Shift towards creature solutions.

Most of the things said repeat my opener: Value in eating countered spells (instead of ensuring the spell resolves via spell pierce, etc. For the same 1cc) and eating flusterstorm copies (the only Storm Card this one should eat; opponent can easily see this coming; needs a flusterstorm Target cast instead of using the Counter to protect your spell).

my 1cc Solution to Lodestone remains Lightning bolt. Aside from the locked-under-spheres-szenario talrand and EtW do a better job abusing spells cast

[vaughnbros]

Value in eating countered spells (instead of ensuring the spell resolves via spell pierce, etc. For the same 1cc)

Except that spell pierce does nothing when your opponent chalices at 1 and I need to have mana for my spell plus a U to use it.

opponent can easily see this coming

Yes my opponent can easily see this coming as its been sitting on the table since turn 1 they are just waiting with their removal spell and chump blocker the entire time.

needs a flusterstorm Target cast instead of using the Counter to protect your spell

Except that they cant counter his ability and who cares if they counter my draw spell or whatever it is while im already about to smash them for lethal.

my 1cc Solution to Lodestone remains Lightning bolt. Aside from the locked-under-spheres-szenario talrand and EtW do a better job abusing spells cast

Did i ever suggest this takes the place of lightning bolt as an answer to lodestone?  So aside for 1/3 of the matches you play that are going to be against shops these 2 cards that cost 4 mana are better at absuing spells cast than a 1 mana spell.  Should I also play Ardent Sphinx over my delvers cause its better at beating with flying? or Thundermaw hellkite over him cause they dont see it coming and cant chump block it?

And to accumulate all of your points into one your going to be playing spell pierces to protect your spells, lightning bolts to handle lodestone, and Talrand/EtW to win, all in the 3 slots that I have been giving to nivmagus?  Then youll probably have that singleton spell pierce right when you need it and that singleton bolt right when you need it and youll have tons of mana to tutor and play talrand/etw when your trying to win.  If we are playing in magical Christmas land this thing can win easier on turn 1 during big gushbond turns than either of your spells anyway since him and flusterstorm only cost UU to play a 21/22 creature.

[Delha]

I look at this sort of like a Multani's Presence that trades being on color for strength of effect. As Klep mentioned prior, it effectively reads "I resolve every spell I cast or this guy hulks out".

That said, I'd think anyone packing enough mainboard Flusters can definitely mileage out of him. CDawg said earlier that it wasn't worth turning your Flusters into Power Sinks. I disagree. Power Sink has an awesome effect, it's just too pricey. Doing the same for is pretty damn good. The effiency of converting any excess into damage is also a nice side bonus. Fluster for when they've only got two mana up? Even if they pay as much as possible, you're getting a pump out of it.

Regarding dead spells: I think the idea that people would run crappy spells to feed this guys is being overstated. A huge portion of the time, your game one will include at least a handful of spells that are dead (or at least weak) in the matchup. This guy is a blue hoser is his own right while also reducing the drawback of any other narrow mainboard spells you might be running.

[Lemnear]

Except that Nivmagus Elemental does nothing when your opponent chalices at 1 ...

Fixed.

I said that Talrand is the obvious better card in average situations even if ist costs 4 Times the mana of nivmagus as well as Lightning Bolt doing a better Job vs. shops. Mana vs. Effect is very relevant; if you replace ardent sphinx vs. Delver in your argument with Impulse vs. thirst 4 Knowledge some people might agree that the effect is worth the mana more investment. I do think that evasion, Protection from spot-removal and the fact that abilities resolve IS worth the 3 mana more. Keep your straw man at bay

At some Point in this thread ist started to Sound like nivmagus could fix the Shop-matchup and the Blue matchup all together which, I doubt, is the case. I dunno if playing Talrand requires you to live the dream more than the fiction that you have huge counterbattles/flusterstorms in every game After you played this through misstep etc. turn 1 or 2.

 I'm looking forward to hear some testing results in different shells

[xouman]

Saying that Talrand is better than nivmagus is like saying Gifts/FoF are better than preordain. By the time talrand comes into play nivmagus could be a 5/6 and have attacked for 3, 3 and 5 without much problem (teorically). Besides, with talrand you will keep most instants in hand until you drop it, while nivmagus allows to play more aggresively.

[vaughnbros]

Except that Nivmagus Elemental does nothing when your opponent chalices at 1 ...

Fixed.

I was referring to resolving a spell pierce earlier in the game does nothing for me when my opponent plays a chalice at 1 later.  This is kind of irrelevant though because spell pierce isn't a very good card anymore.

I said that Talrand is the obvious better card in average situations even if ist costs 4 Times the mana of nivmagus as well as Lightning Bolt doing a better Job vs. shops. Mana vs. Effect is very relevant; if you replace ardent sphinx vs. Delver in your argument with Impulse vs. thirst 4 Knowledge some people might agree that the effect is worth the mana more investment. I do think that evasion, Protection from spot-removal and the fact that abilities resolve IS worth the 3 mana more. Keep your straw man at bay

Did you just say Argent Sphinx is better than delver? Have you even seen someone play ardent sphinx after the first month of it being released?

Your talking about 1 mana to 4 mana this is not the same at all like your 2 to 3 mana jump in your impulse versus thirst argument.  Your also talking about two cards in nivmagus versus talrand where in certain match ups and situations each one can be better than the other.  Pretty much no matter what situation or match up a cast impulse is better than a cast thirst.

The talrand versus nivmagus for storming out we are talking about a 4 drop that needs to be played before all of your spells versus a 1 drop that can be played at any time during the game.  Thats a 4 drop before that makes him much less reliable than other options which is why he didnt have the impact that I and some others thought he could have.  A 1 drop any time what more can you ask for?

At some Point in this thread ist started to Sound like nivmagus could fix the Shop-matchup and the Blue matchup all together which, I doubt, is the case. I dunno if playing Talrand requires you to live the dream more than the fiction that you have huge counterbattles/flusterstorms in every game After you played this through misstep etc. turn 1 or 2.

 I'm looking forward to hear some testing results in different shells

So your giving up on a card you thought would be good before you even tested it at all or making any attempt at building your own deck with it? (I dont count ritual decks as actual testing for this)  Seems good.

[Lemnear]

Ignoring that I already talked about my first tests with the card (to the Moment with several Deck-styles) and calling me out on that "seems good".

Both Talrand and nivmagus are ONLY affected by spells played AFTER they land on the battlefield. Both suffer if you can not follow up with instants/sorceries. That's left is the 1cc vs. 4cc topic with the dis-/advantages in the back of our head. I argued that the advantages are worth the 3 mana more while you seem to only Point to the mana cost as a factor which lead me to the example with impule vs. Thirst (better one with Steelshaper's Gift vs. Stoneforge Mystic while I want to show that the additional mana invested is justified, while you just Point to the mana cost)

I have no clue about you obsession with sphinx; it was your example to compare a 4 mana 4/4 drawback to a 1 mana 1/2 with a combo effect. Blame me on impule/thirst as a medicre example for the "how much mana is this effect worth"-discussion

[vaughnbros]

Ignoring that I already talked about my first tests with the card (to the Moment with several Deck-styles) and calling me out on that "seems good".

Here's what I've seen:

I've tested with bob-Storm tbh with duress, flusterstorm and Rituals. Nothing too fancy but enough to test why all people Seem to think it's "amazing in Storm". Felt like I could have played phylactery lich and achieve the same in some matchups.

This is what you said about the deck you tested him in.  Duress, flusterstorms, and rituals and you were wondering why your deck was bad against shops...

Feeding gushes to nivmagus seems a complete waste instead of rituals.

You made this comment implying you were playing him wrong.  Why would i ever eat a gush unless its countered?

Both Talrand and nivmagus are ONLY affected by spells played AFTER they land on the battlefield.

This is the key point here which you keep ignoring.  A 1cc can actually come down before you cast your spells.  A 4cc doesnt realistically come down before any of your spells.

And I wouldnt even say nivmagus is only affected by spells after though because I can cast him and then a flusterstorm/brain freeze/grapeshot towards the end of my chain of spells and still get the same effect.

I have no clue about you obsession with sphinx; it was your example to compare a 4 mana 4/4 drawback to a 1 mana 1/2 with a combo effect. Blame me on impule/thirst as a medicre example for the "how much mana is this effect worth"-discussion

By the delver versus Argent sphinx argument I was trying to show you the importance of having the card down turn 1 versus turn 4.  To illustrate that when you need to play the card early 1cc >>> 4cc.  I dont think you can really argue against this, unless you are reliably getting turn 1 and 2 talrands.  Also Stoneforge is strictly superior to steelshaper's gift, thirst is strictly superior to impulse, talrand is NOT strictly superior to nivmagus.  Why would I want to play a 4cc card that is not strictly superior to a 1cc card when they both serve the same role?

evasion, Protection from spot-removal and the fact that abilities resolve

What do these really matter if you dont have the most important factor instants/sorceries to cast after him?  He really doesnt have protection from spot removal, and dies to phyrexian metamorph.  He also dies to pyroclasm.  What does abilities resolving matter if I'm not misplaying him?  Nivmagus actually helps my spells resolve too because of my opponent being in fear of me exiling if they counter it. 

[LSD25]

may not be playable without evasion, but i love the design space they are exploring with this card.