Nivmagus Elemental

[Lemnear]

This is some interesting spoiler. While we discuss on TheSource that this one may be too costy for Legacy (binning mana and spells for it to grow) I think it may have some space in Vintage with a bit less creature removal floating around but with Flusterstom in the middle of the meta. Does exiling additional useless copies of flusterstorm or removing countered spells 4 value make this card a consideration? Discuss!

[ErtaiAdept]

I think you hit the nail on the head with removing spells that are countered.  In the case of a counter war, there would now be two out comes. 

1. You win the counter war and well, you may get some added value out of extra fluster copies (if that actually works which I think it does).

2. You're about to lose the counter war and you just exile all of your spells from the stack making this guy huge and then swinging in for a good amount of damage.  In this case you've essentially worked them into using up some of their counter magic and you've really only lost a small amount of tempo.


I can also see this being really great as a turn one with gitaxian probe.  Drop this guy for 1, throw out a gitaxian probe pay 2 life and get 2 +1/+1 counters. 

IMHO this card definitely has promise in vintage.  Simply comparing it to Quirion Dryad which  admit hasn't been played much since goyf hit the scene this guy in my mind is on par with dryad if not a little bit better because of it being a 1 cc and on color for blue (ie: pitches to FOW).

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Does the instant or sorcery exiled have to be from the stack? Or can we exile instants or sorceries from hand to pump???

[Vennie]

If it said from your hand, it would say instant or sorcery card. So it has to be on the stack.

[evouga]

Isn't Kiln Fiend usually better? It doesn't have the Flusterstorm synergy, and doesn't grow permanently, but also doesn't require losing the counter war to pump.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

If that's the case this card got a lot worse in my book...damn just I thought blue got a spicy new card...

[AmbivalentDuck]

Kiln Fiend can't block Lodestone. Consider that Flusterstorms are usually dead against brown. Turn 1, this. Turn 2, Ancestral/Mystical/Nature's Claim, Misstep it, and Fluster it. Brown now has to deal with my 9/10 on turn 2.  Also, I still get the spell that started it.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

So my spell can resolve, then I exile it to pump? Or while a spell is on the stack I can exile to pump? Not to bad I guess...

[DubDub]

So my spell can resolve, then I exile it to pump?

No.  Although you can exile the original Flusterstorm (or other storm spell) and still get the storm copies because the storm trigger will remain independent of the original spell (additionally, you can then exile any number of storm copies).

Or while a spell is on the stack I can exile to pump? Not to bad I guess...

Yes.

[psyburat]

Some of this may be a retelling of other posts, but it bears retelling.  Having a Greater Gargadon for spells is pretty spicy.  This thing might be quite relevant in RUG Delver, especially for turning dead spells into something.  The curve of Nivmagus Elemental into Preordain/Flusterstorm, and suddenly your Flusterstorms are both alive and give you a creature that stops Lodestone Golem.  However, it makes Chalice of the Void set to 1 even more relevant, so I doubt it'll replace Tarmogoyf.  Although archetypes like Noble Fish would love to turn on dead Dazes, it really needs the spell-density of Delver to be worth it.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Man I wish this card was better lol

[xouman]

Better than a 1/2 for  /{R} that can be "easily" pumped in the right deck? Luckily it does not have evasion, or it could be too much.

While COTV is a nuisance, if you drop this before COTV, all 1CC instants and sorceries are not dead anymore. Pretty solid IMHO.

[vaughnbros]

This doesnt seems completely unplayable.  It should compare very similarly to talrand in his advantages, maybe better at capatilizing on these advantages too since hes a 1 drop.  Your countered and dead spells become much more relevant with this guy out.  He can't really be lightning bolted very easily either which should be noted.  I think his weakness to jace bounce is probably his biggest downfall. 

I'd probably look to try playing him in a deck with gitaxian probes, preordains, grapeshots, full set of artifact acceleration and flusterstorms in a list to pump him to at least a 5/6 swinging on turn 2.

[CorwinB]

I wouldn't suggest running "bad" spells that you don't mind exiling just to pump this. So the best case for this thing is that it allows you to gain some value back from lost counterwars, as was suggested earlier (as well as corner cases such as extraneous copies of Flusterstorm). Also, this exiles the spell, so it limits the possibility for spell reuse (Yawgmoth's Will, Snapcaster, Regrowth...).

The difference with Quyrion Dryad is that you don't have to sacrifice the benefits of your spell if it resolves.

[Mith]

I wouldn't underestimate this card. It grows fast and is in the right colors. UR Delver has a new friend.

[MaximumCDawg]

This card is not good, perhaps even not playable.

Do not compare him to Talrand, Quirion Dryad, or even Guttersnipe.  Those cards do something additional while you're casting your spells and getting the normal effects anyway.  This card requires you to pay mana for an instant or sorcery and throw it away to get a bonus.  How often do you truly have "dead spells" in your hand in Vintage?  "Gosh, if only my Vamp Tutor / Lightning Bolt read 'Put two +1/+1 counters on target creature' instead of what it does."  If this is happening, your'e running janky cards.  Not that I don't love a good Vintage jank deck from time to time myself...

Consider the most relevant situation for Nivmagus, the failed counterwar.  If the spell was important enough to have a fight over it, losing the counterwar is probably tantamount to losing the game anyway.  Getting 4 points of power out of the deal hardly seems like a good trade for an opponent's resolved Tinker, Vampire Hexmage, Ancestral Recall, Necropotence, etc. 

The only situation where this card would be great after a counterwar is if the opponent resolves a Golem, because your Nivmagus grows large enough to block and trade with him anyway.  And guess what?  You're not getting into a counterwar against Shops, so this situation never comes up.

[boggyb]

This card is not good, perhaps even not playable.

Do not compare him to Talrand, Quirion Dryad, or even Guttersnipe.  Those cards do something additional while you're casting your spells and getting the normal effects anyway.  This card requires you to pay mana for an instant or sorcery and throw it away to get a bonus.  How often do you truly have "dead spells" in your hand in Vintage?  "Gosh, if only my Vamp Tutor / Lightning Bolt read 'Put two +1/+1 counters on target creature' instead of what it does."  If this is happening, your'e running janky cards.  Not that I don't love a good Vintage jank deck from time to time myself...

Not true -- it could just mean that you're running situational or narrow cards. Or, you could just be working to even the score on a losing counter battle. Also it interacts very very favorably with Flusterstorm, a very popular card. I wouldn't discount him just yet, for pretty much the same reason as we shouldn't have dismissed Delver when it was spoiled: 1 mana for a high-power creature is very very potent, much more so than any other slot on the curve.

[MaximumCDawg]

This card is not good, perhaps even not playable.

Do not compare him to Talrand, Quirion Dryad, or even Guttersnipe.  Those cards do something additional while you're casting your spells and getting the normal effects anyway.  This card requires you to pay mana for an instant or sorcery and throw it away to get a bonus.  How often do you truly have "dead spells" in your hand in Vintage?  "Gosh, if only my Vamp Tutor / Lightning Bolt read 'Put two +1/+1 counters on target creature' instead of what it does."  If this is happening, your'e running janky cards.  Not that I don't love a good Vintage jank deck from time to time myself...

Not true -- it could just mean that you're running situational or narrow cards. Or, you could just be working to even the score on a losing counter battle. Also it interacts very very favorably with Flusterstorm, a very popular card. I wouldn't discount him just yet, for pretty much the same reason as we shouldn't have dismissed Delver when it was spoiled: 1 mana for a high-power creature is very very potent, much more so than any other slot on the curve.

I know what you're saying, and of course I'd love to be proved wrong and all of that, but I can't see this card as the next Delver.  Delver did what Talrand and Dryad do; it got bigger on its own, requiring no additional resources at all.  You get to play your game, and you get a 3/2 flyer out of the deal.

This guy is fundamentally different.  If he allowed you to DISCARD spells, that'd be one thing, because then he'd be sort of like a cheap Psychatog.  But no, you have to actually spend resources to cast the spell and then exile it for no benefit.  In my mind, this little dork compares badly with level-up creatures in that regard; in addition to paying mana, you lose cards.  He gets bigger faster than they did, though, so that's a plus.

As for Flusterstorm, sure, but that's incredibly situational.  I find it rare that Flusterstorm gets going with more than storm 4, and it's usually at storm 1.  You don't usually have alot of room to exile part of the spell, and god forbid you exile down to just the mana they have +1 and they're able to Force one of the copies.  It's not gonna happen regularly.  As for the counterwar, like I said, building a deck to hedge against losing a counterwar over a game-ending bomb seems like a very bad idea.  You don't want to build your deck to fight Grislebrand on the table; you want to stop him from resolving.

[StanleyAugust]

This card is not good, perhaps even not playable.

Do not compare him to Talrand, Quirion Dryad, or even Guttersnipe.  Those cards do something additional while you're casting your spells and getting the normal effects anyway.  This card requires you to pay mana for an instant or sorcery and throw it away to get a bonus.  How often do you truly have "dead spells" in your hand in Vintage?  "Gosh, if only my Vamp Tutor / Lightning Bolt read 'Put two +1/+1 counters on target creature' instead of what it does."  If this is happening, your'e running janky cards.  Not that I don't love a good Vintage jank deck from time to time myself...

Consider the most relevant situation for Nivmagus, the failed counterwar.  If the spell was important enough to have a fight over it, losing the counterwar is probably tantamount to losing the game anyway.  Getting 4 points of power out of the deal hardly seems like a good trade for an opponent's resolved Tinker, Vampire Hexmage, Ancestral Recall, Necropotence, etc. 

The only situation where this card would be great after a counterwar is if the opponent resolves a Golem, because your Nivmagus grows large enough to block and trade with him anyway.  And guess what?  You're not getting into a counterwar against Shops, so this situation never comes up.

How the hell do you lose a counterwar against Dark Times? 

[MaximumCDawg]

This card is not good, perhaps even not playable.

Do not compare him to Talrand, Quirion Dryad, or even Guttersnipe.  Those cards do something additional while you're casting your spells and getting the normal effects anyway.  This card requires you to pay mana for an instant or sorcery and throw it away to get a bonus.  How often do you truly have "dead spells" in your hand in Vintage?  "Gosh, if only my Vamp Tutor / Lightning Bolt read 'Put two +1/+1 counters on target creature' instead of what it does."  If this is happening, your'e running janky cards.  Not that I don't love a good Vintage jank deck from time to time myself...

Consider the most relevant situation for Nivmagus, the failed counterwar.  If the spell was important enough to have a fight over it, losing the counterwar is probably tantamount to losing the game anyway.  Getting 4 points of power out of the deal hardly seems like a good trade for an opponent's resolved Tinker, Vampire Hexmage, Ancestral Recall, Necropotence, etc. 

The only situation where this card would be great after a counterwar is if the opponent resolves a Golem, because your Nivmagus grows large enough to block and trade with him anyway.  And guess what?  You're not getting into a counterwar against Shops, so this situation never comes up.

How the hell do you lose a counterwar against Dark Times? 

I stand corrected!

[ErtaiAdept]

This card is not good, perhaps even not playable.

Do not compare him to Talrand, Quirion Dryad, or even Guttersnipe.  Those cards do something additional while you're casting your spells and getting the normal effects anyway.  This card requires you to pay mana for an instant or sorcery and throw it away to get a bonus.  How often do you truly have "dead spells" in your hand in Vintage?  "Gosh, if only my Vamp Tutor / Lightning Bolt read 'Put two +1/+1 counters on target creature' instead of what it does."  If this is happening, your'e running janky cards.  Not that I don't love a good Vintage jank deck from time to time myself...

Not true -- it could just mean that you're running situational or narrow cards. Or, you could just be working to even the score on a losing counter battle. Also it interacts very very favorably with Flusterstorm, a very popular card. I wouldn't discount him just yet, for pretty much the same reason as we shouldn't have dismissed Delver when it was spoiled: 1 mana for a high-power creature is very very potent, much more so than any other slot on the curve.

I know what you're saying, and of course I'd love to be proved wrong and all of that, but I can't see this card as the next Delver.  Delver did what Talrand and Dryad do; it got bigger on its own, requiring no additional resources at all.  You get to play your game, and you get a 3/2 flyer out of the deal.

This guy is fundamentally different.  If he allowed you to DISCARD spells, that'd be one thing, because then he'd be sort of like a cheap Psychatog.  But no, you have to actually spend resources to cast the spell and then exile it for no benefit.  In my mind, this little dork compares badly with level-up creatures in that regard; in addition to paying mana, you lose cards.  He gets bigger faster than they did, though, so that's a plus.

As for Flusterstorm, sure, but that's incredibly situational.  I find it rare that Flusterstorm gets going with more than storm 4, and it's usually at storm 1.  You don't usually have alot of room to exile part of the spell, and god forbid you exile down to just the mana they have +1 and they're able to Force one of the copies.  It's not gonna happen regularly.  As for the counterwar, like I said, building a deck to hedge against losing a counterwar over a game-ending bomb seems like a very bad idea.  You don't want to build your deck to fight Grislebrand on the table; you want to stop him from resolving.

I do understand what you're saying.  But in my mind this card has a couple of other benefits over all three of the comparable examples.

Color/Casting Cost:
   While dryad and Talrand both allow you to gain the benefit from your card in addition to pumping it the casting cost and color of the car can become an issue.  Nivmagus is on color for blue decks which means better resilience against waste effects and is 1cc as opposed to 2 making it easier to cast.  The casting cost is even more of an issue with Talrand at 4cc.  Unless you get a good accelerated hand I often find with him that I've expended a lot of my gas by the time he hits the table.  The color argument also applies to goyf, but I don't think anyone would agree that this card is better than goyf.

Toughness:
   This applies to Delver more than either of the other two.  The fact that this creature starts with 2 toughness makes it much better than delver in my mind.  Additionally delver at its peak is only a 3/2 (if he survives long enough to flip) which means it dies easily to lightning bolt/fire-Ice/Pyroclasm/Lava Dart.  And while all of these spells may be effective removal initially against Nivmagus 1 exiled spell takes him out of reach of all of them.

[boggyb]

As for Flusterstorm, sure, but that's incredibly situational.  I find it rare that Flusterstorm gets going with more than storm 4, and it's usually at storm 1.  You don't usually have alot of room to exile part of the spell, and god forbid you exile down to just the mana they have +1 and they're able to Force one of the copies.  It's not gonna happen regularly.  As for the counterwar, like I said, building a deck to hedge against losing a counterwar over a game-ending bomb seems like a very bad idea.  You don't want to build your deck to fight Grislebrand on the table; you want to stop him from resolving.

Okay-- thanks for your comments. Some quibbles, though, with this part here: 1. Note there will always be at least two copies of Flusterstorm, and 2. you'd never play him with Flusterstorm like that. In fact he makes Flusterstorm much better. If you have him out and fluster something, they then have to pay mana for Fluster or risk you exiling the spells to pump Nivmagus.

A simple example: You have Nivmagus out, they have two Islands. They cast Mana Crypt, then tap Crypt and island for Thirst for Knowledge. You Flusterstorm it. Now they have a choice: either they use that extra blue mana to pay for one fluster copy and leave you with a 5/6, or leave their island up and leave you with a 7/8. What a blow out!

My point is, since he's in the 1 slot, control decks can readily jam him on turn one and then ride out advantages like this throughout the game. Every counter war you get into with him on the board is potentially a blowout for you, so long as what you're fighting over doesn't 100% win the game for them on the spot. You lost a counter war? Your consolation prize is a 10/11 -- have fun.

[MaximumCDawg]

As for Flusterstorm, sure, but that's incredibly situational.  I find it rare that Flusterstorm gets going with more than storm 4, and it's usually at storm 1.  You don't usually have alot of room to exile part of the spell, and god forbid you exile down to just the mana they have +1 and they're able to Force one of the copies.  It's not gonna happen regularly.  As for the counterwar, like I said, building a deck to hedge against losing a counterwar over a game-ending bomb seems like a very bad idea.  You don't want to build your deck to fight Grislebrand on the table; you want to stop him from resolving.

Okay-- thanks for your comments. Some quibbles, though, with this part here: 1. Note there will always be at least two copies of Flusterstorm, and 2. you'd never play him with Flusterstorm like that. In fact he makes Flusterstorm much better. If you have him out and fluster something, they then have to pay mana for Fluster or risk you exiling the spells to pump Nivmagus.

A simple example: You have Nivmagus out, they have two Islands. They cast Mana Crypt, then tap Crypt and island for Thirst for Knowledge. You Flusterstorm it. Now they have a choice: either they use that extra blue mana to pay for one fluster copy and leave you with a 5/6, or leave their island up and leave you with a 7/8. What a blow out!

My point is, since he's in the 1 slot, control decks can readily jam him on turn one and then ride out advantages like this throughout the game. Every counter war you get into with him on the board is potentially a blowout for you, so long as what you're fighting over doesn't 100% win the game for them on the spot. You lost a counter war? Your consolation prize is a 10/11 -- have fun.

I don't think your second point is correct.  They do not choose whether or not to pay mana for Flusterstorm until the copies start resolving.  By that time, you do not have priority and cannot choose to exile the copies.  For example, say you Fluster the opponent's tinker with Storm 1.  If you pass priority, the stack starts resolving, and they choose not to pay for the first copy; you cannot now exile that copy for profit, because it's already resolved.  Same deal with the second one. 

[boggyb]

Right, you're right. But still you'd never exile the spells until their target has been for sure countered, so the bit about exiling down to 1 to have them force your Fluster is not right.

Another thing, every time you cast a sorcery with Nivmagus out, they have to choose between countering it or pumping your dude considerably. Also man this guy combos well with Yawg -- you can turn all the Forces and Missteps you used throughout the game in your grave into pump spells for your dude. (Not that Yawg needed to become more powerful or anything.)

[MaximumCDawg]

I get all that, and I get you still get value from spells this way.  I still have a hard time seeing that you're winning if the opponent is countering your business spells.

I guess the only place I'd see this working is against Landstill.  Sneak down and early beater, and try to play normally; if they stop you, they increase your clock.  The first time they do it, your creature trumps Mishra's Factory.  Second time, it trumps two of them.  In the Big Blue vs. Landstill mirror, therefore, I see some value here.

[evouga]

Hmm, I'm inclined to agree with CDawg. A beater, even a big one, strikes me as a poor consolation prize for losing a counter war over Tinker, Yawg, Jace (especially!), or a key combo piece. Wouldn't I rather have something like Mindbreak Trap that helps me win the key war, instead of hedging against losing?

[RecklessEmbermage]

This card may have other uses, apart from a beater in blue control/aggro control. It might be a sideboard option in legacy burn decks against blue, for instance. Looks like a must-counter.

[vaughnbros]

A simple example: You have Nivmagus out, they have two Islands. They cast Mana Crypt, then tap Crypt and island for Thirst for Knowledge. You Flusterstorm it. Now they have a choice: either they use that extra blue mana to pay for one fluster copy and leave you with a 5/6, or leave their island up and leave you with a 7/8. What a blow out!

My point is, since he's in the 1 slot, control decks can readily jam him on turn one and then ride out advantages like this throughout the game. Every counter war you get into with him on the board is potentially a blowout for you, so long as what you're fighting over doesn't 100% win the game for them on the spot. You lost a counter war? Your consolation prize is a 10/11 -- have fun.

I don't think your second point is correct.  They do not choose whether or not to pay mana for Flusterstorm until the copies start resolving.  By that time, you do not have priority and cannot choose to exile the copies.  For example, say you Fluster the opponent's tinker with Storm 1.  If you pass priority, the stack starts resolving, and they choose not to pay for the first copy; you cannot now exile that copy for profit, because it's already resolved.  Same deal with the second one.  

I cast flusterstorm targeting your spell.  Storm triggers.  I target your spell with all my copies of flusterstorm.  Last copy to hit the stack resolves.  You pay 1 or its countered.  You dont pay 1.  Your spell is countered.  I can now exile all the rest of the copies and the original flusterstorm to nivmagus.

I get all that, and I get you still get value from spells this way.  I still have a hard time seeing that you're winning if the opponent is countering your business spells.

I guess the only place I'd see this working is against Landstill.  Sneak down and early beater, and try to play normally; if they stop you, they increase your clock.  The first time they do it, your creature trumps Mishra's Factory.  Second time, it trumps two of them.  In the Big Blue vs. Landstill mirror, therefore, I see some value here.

Flusterstorm is amazing against blue bad in pretty much every other match up.  Grapeshot is amazing against fish bad against pretty much every other match up.  Shattering spree is amazing against shops bad against pretty much every other match up.  All 3 of these spells are very aggressively costed and generate multiple copies making them perfect examples of great cards to pump your Nivmagus.  All of them can also be used in a similar fashion as the flusterstorm example about to get around counter magic.

He isn't about winning counter wars this is false.  Hes about getting value out of your countered spells and the spells that have been hit with chalice of the void.

[ErtaiAdept]

I just thought of a really interesting opener for this guy, again this is sort of one of those best case scenarios but it can be very powerful in my mind.

T1
Underground Sea, Tap, Play Nivmagus

T2
Play Underground Sea, Mox Jet, Mana Crypt, Gitaxian Probe, Respond with Flusterstorm (Storm 3 = 4 Copies)  Exile all spells for +10/+10, swing, ToA for 10, GG

This like I said is a very niche scenario, but there are many others that could work the same.  Having this guy on the table essentially turns every flusterstorm in your deck into a tendrils of agony on turn 2.

[evouga]

This card may have other uses, apart from a beater in blue control/aggro control. It might be a sideboard option in legacy burn decks against blue, for instance. Looks like a must-counter.

Oh! Interesting. This card might give TMWA a powerful tool against fish, a traditionally miserable matchup.