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Author Topic: [Free Podcast] So Many Insane Plays # 17: Ravnica First Impressions  (Read 4791 times)
Smmenen
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« on: September 11, 2012, 09:36:43 pm »

http://www.mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-shows/active-podcast-shows/so-many-insane-plays/so-many-insane-plays-17-return-to-ravnica-first-impressions

Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian discuss the latest Return to Ravnica spoilers. We cover Jace, Architect of Thought, Goblin Electromancer, Judge’s Familiar, Dreadbore, Guttersnipe, Izzet Charm and Dryad Militant. We also look back on our Planechase and Avacyn Restored reviews and grade our results.
 
0:04:55: Planechase/Avacyn Restored Report Card
0:26:00: Jace, Architect of Thought
0:44:40: Goblin Electromancer
0:56:47: Judge’s Familiar
1:01:57: Dreadbore
1:04:59: Guttersnipe
1:09:30: Izzet Charm
1:20:15: Dryad Militant
1:39:30: Question of the Week

Your Host(s): Kevin Cron , Steve Menendian
Show’s Email: SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com
Show’s Twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/ManyInsanePlays
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Guli
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 05:19:40 am »

I loved the (correct) analyses on Dryad. I have been (obviously) testing this new beautiful card against dredge, oath and snapcaster decks. STP is not a good answer vs Griselbrand, simply wrong. You need Karakas/bouncer or a tapper that can not be countered.

Have much more to say, but I will continue to test more, I might share later on.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 07:52:13 am by Guli » Logged

quicksilvervii
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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 08:03:01 am »

It was a good listen, Steve.  There are some cards I can't wait to be talked about some more (like Abrupt Decay), but I guess that will have to wait.

Snap thoughts:

0:26:00: Jace, Architect of Thought

Agreed, Chaff.  I don't think we will see this doing anything.  I feel like I would rather have FoF in this slot.  Easier to cast, essentially the same card advantage (except faster, instant speed).

0:44:40: Goblin Electromancer

The only way I see this being a "thing" is in some sort of UR storm deck with Past in Flames.  I think this is a card that will need to be built around, but currently don't think it has a home in any existing deck

0:56:47: Judge’s Familiar

Exciting card, agree that it opens up a lot of possibilities.  Wonder if it will make mono W viable.

1:01:57: Dreadbore

Agree that bolt us just better right now in the format.

1:04:59: Guttersnipe

Seems cute - someone will try to abuse it, but I am not convinced it is all that good.  If I am playing some sort of storm deck, I feel like I want to end with the game ending spell, not start with it.

1:09:30: Izzet Charm

Already testing this in a new keeper list.  Extremely excited about this one - especially now that we have cavern of souls to play nice with Goblin Welder.

1:20:15: Dryad Militant

Also very exciting, for obvious reasons


I can't recall when it was spoiled, but I was curious to hear anyone else's thoughts on chromatic lantern.  I'm personally very excited about it (not expecting shockwaves, however).  I really want to see if it makes 5C stax/control more viable.
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 09:49:55 am »

The big problem I had with the talk about electomancer was your theory that you will consistently have one  "colorless" mana on turn one. By this logic intuition would be a turn 2 play and then ak is a turn 3 play. Electromancer makes intuition and ak a turn 3 play. So I dont exactly see why you would want to play electromancer in that style of deck.

The same argument can be made with Cron's talk about a new welder izzet charm deck. assuming you have a mox (which you would also need for turn on the welder), turn 1 welder turn 2 alchemy is just as good/better then the charm. I do think that a grixis welder deck would be the only place that izzet charm would see play.
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Egan

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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 02:24:52 pm »

I was thinking Electromancer would work better in a deck full of 1U counters, like Mana Leak, Remand, and possibly even Arcane Denial, simply slowing your opponent down til you gets your beats in with Goblin/Snappies/Delver.  Combo decks generally don't need "mana reducers" to be good or go off, but making a deck all 1 cc counters, seems viable to me.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 02:45:40 pm »

The same argument can be made with Cron's talk about a new welder izzet charm deck. assuming you have a mox (which you would also need for turn on the welder), turn 1 welder turn 2 alchemy is just as good/better then the charm. I do think that a grixis welder deck would be the only place that izzet charm would see play.

I cant discard a bot from my hand with alchemy.  I also cant use alchemy to counter my opponents spells or kill their guy.  Izzet charm is a significant improvement from alchemy.
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bax
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 03:07:40 pm »

I actually disagree with the enthusiasm around Dryad Militant. In fact everything you guys say is correct - if - and this is one big if - if it is played before the instants/sorcery go to your opponent graveyard and possibly on turn 1 on the play (if you lose the dice roll and your opponent plays on turn 1, ancestral + demonic, you dryad on turn 2 is not going to exile those! Nor prevent your opponent from playing them again like Cage)).

Against Blue decks, playing this on any turn after the 2nd turn it is a dead play. Because maybe your opponent just untap next turn and goes on with Yawgmoth and close the deal there!
Against MUD is a dead draw
Against Aggro is just a Chumpblocker and a beater.
Against Dredge is good but still inferior to Grafdigger's Cage (Dredge actually dies to cage + Thalia and it has no way of removing the cage)
Against Oath does nothing, because strong Oath deck (no Griselbrand Oath deck which i consider a weaker choice to turbo oath deck) will kill you on the same turn they flip Emrakul of BSC with Dragon Breath.

I might agree it would go on White Trash, but possibly not ....
I strongly doubt it would go in the maindeck of any competitive GW or GWB deck as there are better options and way too little slot to tweak (try sit down and build a GW with this in it, you'll soon see it compete for slots with Gaddock or Kataki ... which are both better options). It could go on the sideboard maybe.
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 03:59:34 pm »

The same argument can be made with Cron's talk about a new welder izzet charm deck. assuming you have a mox (which you would also need for turn on the welder), turn 1 welder turn 2 alchemy is just as good/better then the charm. I do think that a grixis welder deck would be the only place that izzet charm would see play.

I cant discard a bot from my hand with alchemy.  I also cant use alchemy to counter my opponents spells or kill their guy.  Izzet charm is a significant improvement from alchemy.

Iam aware of the text of izzet charm.
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Egan

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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 04:11:26 pm »

The same argument can be made with Cron's talk about a new welder izzet charm deck. assuming you have a mox (which you would also need for turn on the welder), turn 1 welder turn 2 alchemy is just as good/better then the charm. I do think that a grixis welder deck would be the only place that izzet charm would see play.

I cant discard a bot from my hand with alchemy.  I also cant use alchemy to counter my opponents spells or kill their guy.  Izzet charm is a significant improvement from alchemy.

Iam aware of the text of izzet charm.

Well you said "turn 1 welder turn 2 alchemy is just as good/better then the charm".   I thought I would point out that is not true.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 04:38:44 pm »


Against Blue decks, playing this on any turn after the 2nd turn it is a dead play. Because maybe your opponent just untap next turn and goes on with Yawgmoth and close the deal there!

Oh come on!  Let's not be hyperbolic. 
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2012, 04:42:32 pm »

The same argument can be made with Cron's talk about a new welder izzet charm deck. assuming you have a mox (which you would also need for turn on the welder), turn 1 welder turn 2 alchemy is just as good/better then the charm. I do think that a grixis welder deck would be the only place that izzet charm would see play.

I cant discard a bot from my hand with alchemy.  I also cant use alchemy to counter my opponents spells or kill their guy.  Izzet charm is a significant improvement from alchemy.

Iam aware of the text of izzet charm.

Well you said "turn 1 welder turn 2 alchemy is just as good/better then the charm".   I thought I would point out that is not true.

I am sure that you could see how looking at twice as many cards could be good.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2012, 05:51:26 pm »

I'm curious how people are listening to this: are you just using a web browser or smart phone?

This podcast can also be downloaded on Itunes on a Ipod or on Apple TV (my personal fav).

FYI
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quicksilvervii
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« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2012, 06:57:14 pm »

I'm curious how people are listening to this: are you just using a web browser or smart phone?

This podcast can also be downloaded on Itunes on a Ipod or on Apple TV (my personal fav).

FYI

iPhone, would have been iPad.  I reached for whichever was closer.  The Podcast App is really convenient for listening and letting me know when new episodes are available.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2012, 07:24:00 pm »

I am sure that you could see how looking at twice as many cards could be good.

On turn 2 you should have 8 cards in hand.  We have 5 spots allocated, 2 lands, a mox, a welder, and alchemy/charm.  That leaves 3 unknown cards in your hand.  Izzet charm bumps that number to 5 unknown cards.  Alchemy only sees 4.  Unless I've mulliganed you have less cards to find your robot in.  This is not to mention that the further the game goes the more likely you are to get your robot stuck in your hand.   The mode just for dumping a bot in the yard is superior to alchemy so how exactly is it better?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 07:38:27 pm by vaughnbros » Logged
Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2012, 07:27:09 pm »

I'm curious how people are listening to this: are you just using a web browser or smart phone?

This podcast can also be downloaded on Itunes on a Ipod or on Apple TV (my personal fav).

FYI

Listening to it on my Kindle Fire.  Hope you guys do another one for the cards that have spoiled since this was recorded.  I always enjoy your analysis.

Peace,

Troy
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shrewarmies
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« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2012, 07:43:10 pm »

Just downloading it online and listening as I do other work.
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« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2012, 08:00:52 pm »

Listened on my I phone at work.
I'm a little surprised there was no mention of abrupt decay. It's certainly a better card for vintage than dreadbore.
Btw the stormesque card you were thinking of was talrand, the sky summoner.
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« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2012, 09:31:02 pm »

I always listen from my computer. 
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« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2012, 10:35:53 pm »

We're definitely going to podcast again on RTR, since there is more juice every day and more requests for things to discuss.  Review discussions are always fun!
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« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2012, 02:02:12 am »

Great podcast guys!  I always enjoy the set reviews.  I'm really excited about Izzet Charm, and am going to start testing it soon in a couple of different builds.  I actually thought control slaver the first time I read it.  I loved that deck, so I'm always on the lookout for an enabler.

As for your question, Steve, I put the episode on my iPod and listened to it on my way to and from work.  Sometimes I listen to it on a run when I'm working out.  It's the only Vintage content on podcast, and it's appreciated.

Doug
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bax
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« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2012, 04:18:18 am »

Oh come on!  Let's not be hyperbolic. 

There is nothing hyperbolic in saying that any instant and sorcery played before this Dryad will still go to the graveyard and will be there available to be flashbacked with snapcaster or played again with Yawgmoth.

Cage is vastly superior because it doesn't have to be played on turn 1 to stop istant and sorcery to be casted from the graveyard but also does other things such as inhibit tinker for BSC, Oath effectiveness and dredge, as well as being useful vs MUD to stop Kuldotha from fetching a Myr Battlesphere or Steel Hellkite. Still Cage often appears just in the sideboard of many decks.

The fact this dryad is also a creature with a power/body ratio higher than its casting cost make it only slightly more viable, but yet not worthy of making maindeck imho.

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« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2012, 04:41:42 am »

I follow bax but not because I find Dryad weak or worse than cage.

My reasoning is: We need something STRONGER that answers the main issues of the meta from beatdown perspective.

I appreciate a 1 drop with a soft disruption, and I would like to see more of this. But we need another 'Gaddock Teeg' type human that really touches the meta.

(Listen on my PC)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 07:22:40 am by Guli » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2012, 05:51:53 am »

Small rules correction: even if Darkblast targets Dryad, it will be exiled (because Dryad will only go to the graveyard next time SBAs are checked.)

I listen on my laptop at work.
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CHA1N5
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« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2012, 09:31:10 am »

Small rules correction: even if Darkblast targets Dryad, it will be exiled (because Dryad will only go to the graveyard next time SBAs are checked.)

Yes, this is an important point that Steve and I didn't realize during the show. We were so excited!
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« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2012, 12:53:42 pm »

Oh come on!  Let's not be hyperbolic. 

There is nothing hyperbolic in saying that any instant and sorcery played before this Dryad will still go to the graveyard and will be there available to be flashbacked with snapcaster or played again with Yawgmoth.

Cage is vastly superior because it doesn't have to be played on turn 1 to stop istant and sorcery to be casted from the graveyard but also does other things such as inhibit tinker for BSC, Oath effectiveness and dredge, as well as being useful vs MUD to stop Kuldotha from fetching a Myr Battlesphere or Steel Hellkite. Still Cage often appears just in the sideboard of many decks.

The fact this dryad is also a creature with a power/body ratio higher than its casting cost make it only slightly more viable, but yet not worthy of making maindeck imho.

I can also just hurkyl's or claim or grudge or chewer your cage and the game state is as if the cage never existed in the first place.  Dryad might need to come down early but its a more immediate threat it can attack them and even if its removed their cards remain exiled. 

It also opens up some different ways to build fish.  They now have the option of running 0 artifacts, outside of mox and lotus.  And if you really want to get crazy they could cut stoney silence for kataki and daze for judge's familiar and then every card outside of force and mana sources has attack power. 
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bax
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« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2012, 01:49:34 pm »

.... It also opens up some different ways to build fish.  They now have the option of running 0 artifacts, outside of mox and lotus.  And if you really want to get crazy they could cut stoney silence for kataki and daze for judge's familiar and then every card outside of force and mana sources has attack power. 
Interesting you say this now ... this idea of cutting stony silence for Kataki and removing artifact from maindeck apart form mana in a hatebears deck is exactly what i had at last BoM in May and got me a 9th place on a 323 players tournament  ( http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44001.msg606222#msg606222 ) . Also cage was coming in post side when the opponents were removing artifact hate from their deck thinking i had no artifacts.

Only difference is that i went with GWub instead than with Bant/fish ... and i did not use Dryad nor Cage in maindeck. It isn't such a crazy idea after all i can guarantee you, but the dryad still doesn't cut the list, if you read my report at the link i have encountered 4 MUD, 2 Fish UGR and a Doomsday deck, if i had dryad maindeck it would have been a dead draw in 7 out of 9 rounds.

Time will tell - let's see in a year from now if this dryad has seen any relevant play ...
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« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2012, 08:26:26 pm »

Good listen.  For my money, Guttersnipe has more promise than Electromancer.  I thought the comparison to Kiln Fiend was rather narrow.  Would have enjoyed a conversation on how much mana it is worth to have your storm kill at the beginning of the chain vs the end.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2012, 10:00:31 pm »

We will be doing a part two set review, given the number of conversation worthy cards that have since been spoiled.  I had a few drinks before our this podcast, and promise to be more sober this time.

If you have feedback, let us know and we will try to respond before moving onto new cards. 
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« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2012, 07:20:47 am »

We will be doing a part two set review, given the number of conversation worthy cards that have since been spoiled.  I had a few drinks before our this podcast, and promise to be more sober this time.

If you have feedback, let us know and we will try to respond before moving onto new cards. 

Hurry up, I can't wait :p

Also, make some room for beats, humans and/or other forms. Why is nobody getting a top 8 (or better, is there simply nobody who attempts) Is the archetype just to weak? Or is it too hard to play with? Another reason might be the time you need to invest to tune and test a relatively unexplored realm.

Thanks for the podcasts!
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« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2012, 07:22:24 am »

We will be doing a part two set review, given the number of conversation worthy cards that have since been spoiled.  I had a few drinks before our this podcast, and promise to be more sober this time.

If you have feedback, let us know and we will try to respond before moving onto new cards. 

Hurry up, I can't wait :p

Also, make some room for beats, humans and/or other forms. Why is nobody getting a top 8 (or better, is there simply nobody who attempts) Is the archetype just to weak? Or is it too hard to play with? Another reason might be the time you need to invest to tune and test a relatively unexplored realm.

Thanks for the podcasts!

No!  Don't hurry up!  There's still another 100 cards to be spoiled including the Golgari Charm, so take your time.  Wait to see what else they come up with.
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