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Author Topic: R/B beats  (Read 16762 times)
xouman
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« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2012, 05:34:58 pm »

Good points. yesterday I played mud with welders and magus (different deck, I know, but *some* similarities), and lost the crucial match against gushbond (we were 3-1).

I won first game by playing 2 thorns + late golem. A crucible + waste were not enough as he got 2 islands quickly. Thorns made him play so slowly that he had to play gush paying 2, so he cannot could chain spells

I lost second match because he got mulligan at 5 but opened with jace, and cut my revoker (I had a sofi in hand, would have played both by turn 1 and equip in T2) with fow. Jace got him too much advantage. I always search for answers to resolved jace with monored, but mud is less prepared.

I lost third match to early trygon+jace. while trygon is far less a problem to your deck, it still breaks liquimetal. But if you play imps, trygon is well handled.


If you only fear storm mode, thorns+pyrostatic pillar are my answer. vaughnbros suggested spellshock, and probably is better suited here (I played 10 cc4 spells, so I prefered pyrostatic). third option would be mindbreak trap, but sometimes they could have a counter for it after they go off. So I'd play 2 spellshock in sb in your final list. I like it a lot, the only think it troubles me is that some cards don't do anythink or little in multiples, but seems quite capable.

One last suggestion: demonic consultation. I know this is not a combo deck, but you play 4of's and 3of's. You can fetch for an early confidant/magus/coating/shaman and wreck opponent
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2012, 08:56:08 pm »

I think I may go with pyrostatic, only because it is 1 mana cheaper.  Vs storm, i need to be as fast as possible.  I have tried a couple slaughter games in those 2 slots (even tried 4) and they hurt on bob flips + when I rip out tendrils, they just go into weenie beats with snap, bob, trygon and counter my critters/kill them.  I usually side out the liquimetals/heretics vs decks that rely on the stack, and then it has hurt me when they sb into critter plan.  Not really sure what to do, but imps have helped.  I do love an imp with a SoFI - so brutal.  4 thorn hasn't seemed to be enough because my deck is slow and controlling, and they can hurkyll's and win - or drop 4 trygons and wreck shop that way.

Any other big tech I'm missing?
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xouman
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« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2012, 05:20:47 am »

I still think spellshock is better for you. While it costs 1 more, you want to drop lots of things before, because 2 lives for each spell is VERY expensive. Besides, gushbond decks play jace, gush, fow, tendrils, maybe gifts... lots of cards unaffected by pillar, and all your cards are affected.

If you don't rely on permanents against those decks, try REBs or COTV and Vexing Susher. Rebs are not the best deal, since it's a 1 for 1, and opponent plays more countermagic, but still can take gush, ancestral, tinker, jace, delvers and lots and lots of cards. COTV is solid if you cut 1cc or 2cc spells, making it asymetric. Susher is slow, but once in play is a trouble for some decks. Still it's only good enough with COTV or rebs (or both, of course), since it defends your spells, not rival's. It's more suited against control than combo.

Null rod hits heavily some combo decks (if you are siding out liquimetals it's ok). Witchbane orb it's expensive, but makes you inmune to tendrils (and oath, gifts, duress, tgz, intuition...). Trinisphere also hits you, but quite less than storm decks.

Boil is so-so against gush, and slow all around. Hymn to tourach is worse than duress or tgz, but it leaps misstep and takes double card. Uba mask it's also expensive, but your confidants dodge it and opponent loses control. Ash zealot is solid against snapcasters, annoys Y.will and ichorid. I've played stranglehold against vault decks, but also it's expensive and quite focused. Ankh of mishra is only good against gush decks and it's not deffinitive. Jitte could give you a lot of lives to stay out of tendrils range, while being ok/awesome against aggro decks. Basikilk collar gets a similar effect, veeeeery marginal. Just bad answers imho, but maybe worth considering in your meta.

What kind of combo are you expecting to find?

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bluemage55
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« Reply #63 on: October 29, 2012, 06:55:31 am »

Have you considered Ancient Tombs?  You have a lot of key spells that could use the {2}: liquimetals, Magus of the Moon, heretic, Shaman (against higher 1cc+ targets).

If color screw is an issue, you could also pair them with Manamorphose with no drawbacks except against Shop, which you already destroy anyway.
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xouman
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« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2012, 08:34:25 am »

From my experience confidants + ancient tomb make a bad couple if you can't kill quickly unless you play a quick MoM. Besides there is enough 1cc and 2cc density to make this deck work without tombs.
But of course tomb deserves testing, in my monoR tomb is an automatic inclusion.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2012, 02:34:08 pm »

@ ancient tomb - it is really painful over time.  With bobs, it's even worse.  Bob's led me to go with duress over thoughtseize even.   The damage can really add up.  I often stabalize and gain a lock with just a few life to spare, so 6 damage off a few tomb uses can be fatal.  I'd almost rather city of traitors.  Outside of dropping MoM, the 2 mana boost would quickly become a 0 mana land as damage accumulates.  If I were to add anything dealing damage, i'd add seizes over duress again.

@ spellshock - good point.  I may go with spellshock to see how it plays out.  The trouble is when they go into plan B with 4 trygons and my guys are weaker.  Then the damage hurts me equally and their clock is faster. Null rod isn't good for the same reasons thorn fails.  When they win, it's because they hurkylls me and win on their turn. I need some non-artifact ways to punish their gameplan. I also need to be able to beat both their tendrils plan, and their bob/snap/trygon plan.

@ jitte - might try this as it gains life and can kill bob/snap/trygon, defeating both plans for the opponent.  A jitte could swing on a 1/1 long before a trygon hits in theory.  I also have 2 imps (3 after sb) to help against aggro/trygons.  Worth a shot.

As far as combos, I face old meandeck SX style tendrils, intuition/drain tendrils, ANT, gushbond tendrils, griseloath tendrils.  It depends on which week any few of those decks show up, so I have to be prepared to beat all of them at any given time.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 02:45:30 pm by TheWhiteDragon » Logged

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xouman
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« Reply #66 on: October 30, 2012, 05:57:47 am »

Jace and trygon are the cards that trouble me more other than broken plays or oath. Slow card advantage, and counters to protect them.

My answers to jace are bolt and revoker, and sometimes reb in the side, apart from combat damage from creatures.

My common answers to trygon are phyrexian metamorph, lightning bolt and sometimes REB or pyrokinesis, depending on the build.


I often maindeck bolts because they also help against aggro decks. Rarely i use them to burn the opponent's face, i use them always in control mode. If I go monored, without moxen, I play 1 jaya or 2. Lavamancer is great, but Jaya kills jace and specially trygon. Also kills golems, planeswalkers, works fine with welder, and it's ultimate it's remotely useful. Up to now, that ultimate has only won time for me, not games, but I can see jaya killing kulldothas, tarmos, or even players low on life. The problem is I don't play confidants, so I'm always low on cards and jaya is a pain. But jaya+spellshock seems nice, if double red does not trouble you.


I just have realized that I hadn't suggested any multicolored cards by now, and it's weird because I always loved multicolored cards. Those are some:

-jagged poppet: a friend of mine played these several years ago. It's better in an aggressive deck, though. I won't play it here but I think it worths mention.

-blightning: 3 damages could kill a jace, and it's card advantage. But this is not the right deck neither.

-dreadbore: kills jace and trygon. oh, and any other creature. It seems worse than lightning, though.

-fulminator mage: meh.

-Rakdos Augermage: this is the first time I think that creature might be playable. You don't play bombs, so it's ok to discard your hand. But looking at opponent's hand all the time, taking bombs... sounds interesting. Against aggro it's a 3/2 first strike for 3, so-so, but can kill golems and most fish critters. I'm not sure at all it would work, but it's suitable in a RB slow and controlling deck as yours.
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xouman
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« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2012, 08:59:36 am »

Hi again. I have been wondering if anybody has tested burning wish in this deck. I did when it was restricted and it wasn't good for me (too slow, plus I play COTV at 2 too many times). But in this deck it's better... but it's good enough? Let's see best targets that come to my mind:

artifacts hate
-shattering spree *
-pulverize *

creatures hate
-Bonfire of the Damned *
-massacre
-pyroclasm
-damnation
-anarchy
-perish

combo/control hate
-slaugther games
-boiling seas *
-duress
-sadistic sacrament *

permanents destroyers
-dreadvore
-pillage *

hand filler
-wheel of fortune *

midgame grave recovery
-unearth *
-yawgmoth's will
-living death *


Cards with * are the ones I like the most. Shattering spree or bonfire are quite easy to see imho. Pulverize could be a winner, boiling seas gets along well with magus, sadistic sacrament destroys combo, unearh recovers any creature from grave. wheel of fortune can turn the tide, y.will or living death could be awesome in a long game, and there are lots of responses against creatures, but probably worse than bonfire (depending on your meta).

Slow responses, but is a slow deck!
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #68 on: December 25, 2012, 10:59:46 am »

Made a couple changes to this deck with some additional testing.  Here are the changes with an updated list and some explanation.

// Lands
    4  Bloodstained Mire
    2  Badlands (added 1 more because I sometimes want access to both colors, and I don't always face wastes.  This was a mountain, since magus turns it back into a mountain)
    2  Mountain
    4  Swamp
    4  Cavern of Souls

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant (while I tested 3, 4 is always the right number - especially since I now run ways to kill it after it has caused too much damage.)
    4  Magus of the Moon
    3  Gorilla Shaman (3 is adequate for the effect - 4 was overkill since their abilities don't compound)
    3  Goblin Welder (3 is good as a way to answer BSC and now with 3 dredge spells, they really can have good utility)
    2  Viashino Heretic
    2  Stinkweed Imp (love this guy - amazed he was never played except for his dredge ability.  He's an immortal wall of death and a beating with SoFI)

// Spells
    4  Liquimetal Coating (since the deck revolves around this trick, 4 is always right)
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Grafdigger's Cage (random, but I can weld it off dredge or tutor it.  It's effect is great in games I want it, but dead sometimes, so I never want more than the 1 main)
    1 [JGC] Mana Crypt
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Darkblast (greatest bob/snapcaster answer ever)
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Shattering Spree
    4  Duress
    2  Sword of Fire and Ice
    2  Engineered Explosives (finally a main answer to oath outside of cage.  Warren tokens are becoming popular too)
    2  Rakdos Charm (went up to 2.  This card is just crazy versatile.  It is like the PERFECT card for what this deck does.  I'd run 3, but shattering spree is uncounterable and not stopped by any chalices.)
    2  Lightning Bolt (2 more answers to jace, golem, bob, deathrite, trygon, metalworker, etc.  It can also be a finisher when they lose life from my beats or their own doing.)

I cut sensei and nihil for 2 bolts.  Since I have 4 bobs and 2 sofi, I'm good on card draw.  I am a redundant deck where every card has a good function, so sensei was really just more slow than it was worth digging.  I'm redundant on threats and answers, so its utility was limited.  Rakdos #2 also lessened the need for nihil and is just more versatile.  Never dead.  Nihil is still sb since it is great with welder vs dredge or whatnot.

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1  Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1  Engineered Explosives
SB: 2  Phyrexian Metamorph/Stingscourger??? (extra Emakrul/BSC answers - but with 4 cage, 3 welder, 3 EE...I wonder if they're needed.  Pithing needles might be a bit more versatile/useful)
SB: 4  Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2  Spellshock (these with thorn have been great vs storm decks)
SB: 1  Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1  Grim Lavamancer (deathrites are getting popular, so these are extra fish kill)

The ONE archetype that has been giving me problems is stony silence.  I have no answer for that and then turn into a slow beatdown deck.  Not sure what spells can help other than chaos warp - which is god awful.  I toyed with dystopia for a while and though it answers the problem, it is taking valuable slots to battle 1 card.  Burning long, with it's red access to pyroclasm, hurts - but spellshocks and thorns really help.  even 1 thorn delaying their use of moxen allows me to eat them before they add mana.  Extirpate didn't help anything as much as I thought they would.

Has anyone been testing this lately?  It really has a NICE match against so many things.  The liquimetals make a useful tactic (artifact kill) good vs. ANY permanents.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 11:15:57 am by TheWhiteDragon » Logged

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xouman
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« Reply #69 on: December 25, 2012, 03:52:17 pm »

I haven't found the guts to play liquimetal. I made a list with 3, and goldfished it against the wall lots of times. But it lacked stability, I found that any counterspell could break my "combo". Liquimetal alone does nothing, shaman is poor in lots of matches (at least in my meta), as viashino. However I agree that shaman and viashino can win games by themselves so I'm happy to play them.

I hate when I have liquimetal as the only permanent and draw another liquimetal. Since my list is different I play faithless looting, but lots of times does not come when needed.

This list can't obviously play null rod, but COTV is poor playing so many CC1 and CC2 cards. I'm considering playing it with 3 vexing susher. Susher is again conditionally useful (wonderful against slow blue openings, landstill, MUD's COTV, but a 2/2 vanilla at times). But as cavern would get nullified by magus lots of times, maybe it's even better, specially against jace (since jace would fill hand of counters, but susher goes trough it).

I'm definitely trying Pillage. With magus, I find really annoying when opponent plays a basic land. Against dredge you are getting rid of bazaar, and against mud you take out any permanent. Against white thrash and Oath is poorer, I know.


Is white trash your biggest problem? How many WT are played in your meta? Big creatures (lodestone golem,lord of shatterskull pass, flametongue kavu...) and mass removals are great in this matchup, but probably I won't focus on it unless you expect a lot. Hey, now I remember Pyre Zombie from a release, looooooooooooots of years ago. While being mana intensive, you can get rid of any bear! And well, I played saturday Masticore (yes, the old masticore) in my red shops deck and it crushed white weenie, but it sided out stony silence. What about white protection creatures? Or just sulfur elemental, not only kills thalia or kataki on the spot, it can instantly block and kill lots of creatures, and play it at the end of opponent's turn when facing a jace.


I probably won't play explosives maindeck. I would rely on liquimetal+artifact destruction (for example against oath), or maybe play ratchet bomb. It is slower, but recoverable with welder. Oh well, and ratchet bomb is countered bt COTV 2. But still, you want to maximize liquimetal combo, and these cards weaken it.

Have you played the deck lately? Didn't you had problems assembly liquimetal combo most of the time against prepared opponents?
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #70 on: December 25, 2012, 07:48:28 pm »

I haven't found the guts to play liquimetal. I made a list with 3, and goldfished it against the wall lots of times. But it lacked stability, I found that any counterspell could break my "combo". Liquimetal alone does nothing, shaman is poor in lots of matches (at least in my meta), as viashino. However I agree that shaman and viashino can win games by themselves so I'm happy to play them.

I think 4 is how many liquimetals you want.  3 makes it less consistent.  With 4, +2 tutors, + bob/SoFI draws, + 3 welder/3 dredgers, you usually get one in play despite counters.  If they are countering coatings, then they're not countering other threats - and you'll recover the coating with welder eventually anyway.  The combo, in my build at least, is liquimetal + half the deck.  liquimetal + shaman does what you want to do with pilliage.  Liquimetal + charm, spree, and heretic do it too.  If they DO manage to keep liquimetal off the table, the critters alone have enough utility to cause trouble.  The SoFIs make them a better threat too.

I hate when I have liquimetal as the only permanent and draw another liquimetal. Since my list is different I play faithless looting, but lots of times does not come when needed.

Yes, it does suck to rip 2 or 3 liquimetals, unless you have multiple heretics, or a shaman, or a spree, or welder + heretic.  The abilities do stack when trying to kill 2 lands a turn when you face fetches.  The consistency of drawing at least 1 is worth it since a single one on the table makes so many cards kill any permanent.  Looting is fine, but better to run bobs.  Drawing 2 a turn mitigates drawing multiple liquimetals.  They also can weld out for anything when you don't want multiples.

This list can't obviously play null rod, but COTV is poor playing so many CC1 and CC2 cards. I'm considering playing it with 3 vexing susher. Susher is again conditionally useful (wonderful against slow blue openings, landstill, MUD's COTV, but a 2/2 vanilla at times). But as cavern would get nullified by magus lots of times, maybe it's even better, specially against jace (since jace would fill hand of counters, but susher goes trough it).

With this deck, I don't mind chalice at all.  Caverns push through any critter, and if a magus is on the table, I have 2 charm, 1 spree, 2 heretic, 2 EE, DT for chalice @1 - and 3 shaman, vamp, 2 EE, 3 welder, 2 heretic, 1 spree for chalice @2.  Even chalice @1 and 2, still have the EEs, spree, and heretics besides the caverns.  CotV can't stop any of my deck. Susher seems worthless to me, because I am never fearing counters moreso that blue bombs that get topdecked.  Cage and charms kill graves vs yawg will, and 3 welder or active heretic hit BSC.  Jace can be an issue, but the uncounterable critters + bolts + liquimetal/charm/spree solve that problem too (not to mention any weenie + SoFI).

I'm definitely trying Pillage. With magus, I find really annoying when opponent plays a basic land. Against dredge you are getting rid of bazaar, and against mud you take out any permanent. Against white thrash and Oath is poorer, I know.

Pilliage is interesting.  I try to eat basics with shaman+coating.  Coating really makes the majority of cards really powerful, so you should run 4 if you run any.  I don't have so  much a problem with white trash as I do stony silence.  Cutting off SoFI, EE, and coating makes the deck MUCH slower.  Obviously null rod can't do this since we can kill rod easily.  It's only SS.  Between that and oath, Dystopia can be viable, but it's not optimal.

Is white trash your biggest problem? How many WT are played in your meta? Big creatures (lodestone golem,lord of shatterskull pass, flametongue kavu...) and mass removals are great in this matchup, but probably I won't focus on it unless you expect a lot. Hey, now I remember Pyre Zombie from a release, looooooooooooots of years ago. While being mana intensive, you can get rid of any bear! And well, I played saturday Masticore (yes, the old masticore) in my red shops deck and it crushed white weenie, but it sided out stony silence. What about white protection creatures? Or just sulfur elemental, not only kills thalia or kataki on the spot, it can instantly block and kill lots of creatures, and play it at the end of opponent's turn when facing a jace.

Pyre Zombie is neat, but so slow.  Darkblast and bolts seem better.  Heretics are also good at blocking, as are the imps.  I can't see coatings really working without black.  Without bobs, you can just topdeck a coating and draw dead for the turn.  With extra draw though, if one of your 2 cards is a second coating, you're still doing fine.  With dredgers too, you also flip them more for welder.  And when you really need an answer or a piece of the combo, black tutors make a difference.  Duress makes them resolve.  Rakdos charm is stupid good in this deck too.  You lose so much of the consistency and versatility by playing monored.

I probably won't play explosives maindeck. I would rely on liquimetal+artifact destruction (for example against oath), or maybe play ratchet bomb. It is slower, but recoverable with welder. Oh well, and ratchet bomb is countered by COTV 2. But still, you want to maximize liquimetal combo, and these cards weaken it.

The "slower" is why I play EE.  If I need to sweep a voltaic key or pair of bears, or an oath off the table, I often need to do it THAT turn, for RB2 or R2/B2.  If I drop bomb and have to wait for 1-2 turns to kill key or oath, they probably already won.  Also against a swarm of bears like tarmgoyfs...2 turns can be too late and pridemage/trygon/relic-warder can kill the ratchet before it has any effect.  It's nice that it can be recovered, but its slowness makes it more problematic than it's worth.  WithOUT welder on the table, ratchet is almost always worse than EE, too.

Have you played the deck lately? Didn't you had problems assembly liquimetal combo most of the time against prepared opponents?

I never have problems with the combo - because I have 1 more coating, 2 more tutors, more draw spells, dredge 5 critters that make welder put it in play...and also more artifact destruction to always take advantage of it.
I have found that bobs have to be killed in time, since I run 10 cards with cc3, and 10 cards with cc2 (subtracting the one bob that would be in play).  Usually I can get to lethal before bob kills me, but sometimes I need to kill my own bobs.  The inability to draw-fix hurts at times, but sensei top by itself was often too slow and unproductive.  If I've drawn 4-5 cards and took 10 damage, I can usually afford to kill the bob and be in good position anyway.  
I think to get the best out of liquimetals, you need to run 4 and also run all that black has to offer.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 08:00:51 pm by TheWhiteDragon » Logged

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xouman
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« Reply #71 on: December 26, 2012, 05:50:29 pm »

Until I can get more test, I have to agree with all your reasoning. Liquimetal would be hardly dead with so many artifact destruction, and confidants are waaaaay better than faithless looting. Darkblast is probably a cracker here since it also destroys revoker, a potential issue. And yes, pillage does nothing that coating + viashino can't do.

Your deck looks better than anytime Smile
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2012, 06:58:23 pm »

Until I can get more test, I have to agree with all your reasoning. Liquimetal would be hardly dead with so many artifact destruction, and confidants are waaaaay better than faithless looting. Darkblast is probably a cracker here since it also destroys revoker, a potential issue. And yes, pillage does nothing that coating + viashino can't do.

Your deck looks better than anytime Smile

Thanks!  It is definitely getting stronger as I test more and feel for the strengths/weaknesses of each card and settle on optimal numbers.  I'd still like it to do even more, though I'm not sure what!  Win every game maybe, lol.  It's really strong against anything permanent based.  The weakness is still storm, since it can stockpile a hand and go off - but duress and cage and magus help there, and the sb is built mainly to hinder that.  Strangely enough, shops can also be a tough match.  But if I run 2 rakdos charm, 1 spree, 3 shaman, 3 welder, 4 magus, 2 heretic, 2 EE, and 2 bolts MAIN and still have trouble vs shops, then that says more about shops than it does my deck. A deck with unrestricted dark ritual on a stick can't be beat sometimes by a pure artifact hate deck.
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"I know to whom I owe the most loyalty, and I see him in the mirror every day." - Starke of Rath
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