Bomberman Redux

[Phele]

While casting turn 1 bob off a mox is nice and all, what happens when you draw bob mid or late game? It's just terrible.

This is a very generalized sentence. This definately depends of the game state and it is wrong to just say that it is terrible. And casting a first turn Bob is not nice, it is pretty often game against many non Bob decks, like UW Bomberman for example. I don't want to say, that the UW version is worse, but lets stay with the facts.

The UW version reminds me alot of landstill...it is very stream lined in its approach, and not as many random draws. Where the black version is more of a or trying to be a broken "bob" deck. It's really not worth it, but some people like bob too much...it's like riding a bike with training wheels when you can already ride without it.

This is a quote from Jaime Cano, right? And I don't agree, Jaime is underestimating raw card advantage, and values flexibility and choices to high.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Well we may have to agree to disagree some people prefer the black version, and some don't. Oh well, I'm done in thi thread for now.

[A.-1.]

Josh, you make all these absolute statements after winning an 8-man event with UW Bomberman. You say the difference between the two versions is preference when you clearly favor the UW version. Then you say you're done with the thread when someone tries to challenge your opinion. Was there a point somewhere in all of that?

I'll take the tournament results of Egan and Kohler that show me both versions are viable.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I think the UW versions are better. I could go through reasons but I am on a smart phone not a computer and don't care to sit and type it all out. If I have time tonight I will. But as for now...(like I said) I'm done with this thread (not for good, but bc I'm on my phone).

[A.-1.]

I'll be eagerly awaiting those reasons whenever you get around to it  .

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Josh, if I already landed a bob I dont care about black mana since the only other black card I play is denonic tutor. If you want to talj about training wheels we can talk about playing 4 jaces. If you want to talk about being exposed to wastelands we can talk about geting cut off 4 lands to play jace. If you want to talk about cards that do nothing/random draws we can talk about the 2nd top, v cliques and mindsensors, or md grafdiggers cage.

Jace is in the UW list to act as its draw engine in a way its not there to be training wheels. Jace IS one of the best blue cards in vintage and single handedly wins the game. In a meta game full of creature removal why would bob be better then playing 4 jace? I dont think it is. Having 4 Jace in a list ensures you draw it and ultimately increases your chances of winning the game because the card is just that good. Getting cut off from waste and not being able to cast Jace....sure it might happen now and then but this deck runs acceleration and it also runs 4 trinket mage to compliment it by fetching lotus to ramp into Jace. I have seen Justin do this time and time again. People complain that he gets turn 2 Jace alot, well alot of it involves trn 1 trinket mage for lotus. I have seen it more then once. Next on the list is the 2 top in the deck. The 2nd top in the deck IS better then brainstorm thats why its there. It can again be fetched by trinket mages which is huge. And hell if one gets countered you have another. Its actually not as bad as it looks (sorry if you disagree). Vendillion Cliques and/or Mindsensors...Ok I didn't play mindsensor in my list but I know Justin does. I think Clique is a ridiculous card, and it serves its purpose in the UW list. It is a blue duress effect that can kill a Jace if an opponent sneaks one out. And it is a clock to go with the beatdown plan. Mindsensor is good but not as good ad clique IMO. Mindsensor can surprise destroy a blue player that isn't ready for it. Like I said I cut this guy but he is still decent. MD grafdiggers cage? Are you really going to hate on that??? This card is a tutorable way to stop oath or dredge in game 1! How is that not good??? It seems clear to me that the UBW list is much more weak to oath as the list stands. I have already beat dredge in game 1 because of the main deck cage and protecting it. Same goes with facing oath in a game 1...It happens to be very good in the deck.

3rd – Michael Egan
Red Deck Wins (UBW Bomberman)

4 Dark Confidant
2 Auriok Salvager
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Trinket Mage
1 Sol Ring
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Mental Misstep
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Spell Snare
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Voltaic Key
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Tundra
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl

SB:

1 Moat
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant
2 Energy Flux
1 Pithing Needle
2 Kataki, War’s Wage
1 Serenity

So that is the UBW bomberman list and don't get me wrong I'm sure its good, but there are some things I dont like agout it. I actually dont like key vault in the deck more then not liking bob in the deck. I believe going more toward the salvager combo is just a better way to go. Do you really need 2 auto win combos? This list to me feels like a broken bob control deck, and a bomberman deck that got accidently shuffled together and had to make cuts. Wouldn't this deck look better if salvagers were cut for tinker/guy? And I absolutely think 2 Jace is wrong in here. I would let 3 slide but 2? Like I mentioned above JACE WINS THE GAME. Your playing 2 auto win combos, so why not cut one of them and add more Jace and/or maybe tinker/guy? It just seems wrong to me but hey what to I know.

@A-1...I like how you say the tournament results of Egans and Kholers show you both are viable...but I never said UBW wasn't viable. It clearly is. But look at how Kholer has be TEARING up the vintage scene with UW. Thats not on accident. Maybe I am bias or maybe I'm just wrong to say, but I do believe that UW is a better list. Also I am not bragging about winning an 8 man event. I did play against good decks and good opponents so realistically that would be like me going 4-0 in an event and into the top 8 or top 4. I am not praising the deck on doing well one time. I have been play testing bomberman variants for about 2-3 months now. I have tried key vault, I have tried bob, I have tried splashing 3rd colors such as red and black and never liked them in comparison to strict UW. Am I bias? Maybe...Do I test a lot? YES. I am no slouch when it comes to testing or developing decks!

@ Dark Confidant. I love you Bob but in a meta game when creatures can be answered handily, I am not such a fan.

Sorry for all who disagree with me...but maybe I view bomberman through a different light then the majority. Maybe I am just a minority here and have been wrong all along. But in my testing/experiences/opinions UW is the best bomberman variant. Take it for what you want but I am sure there are plenty of people who agree and disagree here.

Again I will tell you I test all the time and I am no slouch about that, and I am not accusing anyone of being that. I just feel UW bomberman is better from my experiences.

[playkenny]

@ oshkoshhaitsyosh

First off, totally agree with all your points; esp regarding Dark Conficant/UBW Bomberman shell. I also think that UW is the way to go with Bomberman and how the deck operates and plays out.

Moving on, what is your approach to the Metalworker/Forgemaster matchup? Your sideboard suggests:

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Devout Witness
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mindbreak Trap (Maybe? your previous posts suggest you side this in)

Is this enough to get through this matchup? What cards do you tend to side out and what hands/specific cards are you looking for and to what endgame i.e. beats, tinker or combo?

Is this kind of shop deck not highly represented in you area?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

@ oshkoshhaitsyosh

First off, totally agree with all your points; esp regarding Dark Conficant/UBW Bomberman shell. I also think that UW is the way to go with Bomberman and how the deck operates and plays out.

Moving on, what is your approach to the Metalworker/Forgemaster matchup? Your sideboard suggests:

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Devout Witness
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mindbreak Trap (Maybe? your previous posts suggest you side this in)

Is this enough to get through this matchup? What cards do you tend to side out and what hands/specific cards are you looking for and to what endgame i.e. beats, tinker or combo?

Is this kind of shop deck not highly represented in you area?

The trap in that sideboard was strictly there because I expected alot of combo and landstill. That would be another disenchant or possibly serenity. And yeah I feel like that is enough when the trap is another hate piece. A lot of the lists I had tested ran 3 Stoneforge Mystic and 1 Batterskull in the sideboard as well. But that sideboard plan meant I was lighter on the dredge hate. The type of sideboard you want to run wioll depend on the meta you expect. So I am looking at bringing 7-9 cards in vs shops depending on the metagame. Here is my list for reference...

UW Bombstep
2 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mage
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Tinker
1 BSC
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thirst for knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
1 Flusterstorm

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Plains
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra

The easy cuts are the follwing -1 top, -1 trinket mage, -3 mental misstep, -1 flusterstorm, -1 thirst for knowledge...and the next few slots are based preference. You could cut a jace, a drain, cage. Or maybe jace gets cut when your on the draw. There are a couple of ways to go about sideboarding here.

I mean what ends the game? It really depends what your hand shows you. I find Jace to seal the deal often times in combination with some beats. Like I said I have played SFM and skull package sb before which is also really really a good option. And tinker as you mentioned will generally end the game.

[A.-1.]

You didn't overtly state that UBW wasn't viable, but from all of your previous comments, it's pretty obvious that you think that version is vastly inferior.

I'm well aware of how well Justin is doing. I believe he's played Bomberman far more often than anyone else in our region. I don't think you can devalue the results of Egan and others just because they don't go to nearly as many tournaments.

I hope you don't feel like I'm personally attacking you. I'm not. In fact, I am also of the opinion that UW is better overall. I just feel like you make a lot of absolute statements without any real reasoning behind them.

Having 4 Jace in a list ensures you draw it and ultimately increases your chances of winning the game because the card is just that good... And I absolutely think 2 Jace is wrong in here. I would let 3 slide but 2?

Does jamming four Jace into any random blue deck make it better? How does Jace increase your chances of winning in either of these builds? These statements maybe true, but for anyone who hasn't done the hours of testing you say to have done, are they just supposed to take your opinion as fact? We all know you've had success with a four Jace Landstill build. Just because you've had success with four Jace doesn't make it the correct number to run in every blue deck or even Landstill.

The 2nd top in the deck IS better then brainstorm thats why its there. It can again be fetched by trinket mages which is huge. And hell if one gets countered you have another. Its actually not as bad as it looks (sorry if you disagree).

Again, there is very little reasoning behind this statement. It would be like me saying, "Brainstorm in the deck IS better than a second Top. That's why it's there. It can be pitched to FoW. It lets you see the cards immediately. It's actually not as bad as it looks." I've seen a lot of lists running two Tops. The best argument I've heard in favor of two is that you have another if the first gets countered. I find that reasoning hard to justify the inclusion of two.

I actually dont like key vault in the deck more then not liking bob in the deck... Do you really need 2 auto win combos?... Wouldn't this deck look better if salvagers were cut for tinker/guy?

Egan's build is wrong because his secondary combo is not the one you agree with? Vault/Key and Tinker/BSC are slightly different backup win conditions. I'll give you that. But how is Tinker/BSC strictly better in a meta that you called "full of creature removal?"

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Lightning bolt, fire/ice, dismember all do not hit BSC. That's what I was referring to...I don't care to nit pick rosary which is better anymore lol so lets just move on. If anyone else wants to continue debating the 2 versions feel free haha

[A.-1.]

Thank you for making my point for me.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Well, whichever version of the deck is better, I don't know - I lean more toward UW myself.  It just seems more consistent in that you will never have black cards with no access to black mana.  There are times I've had only islands and no access to white when i needed it - and that's only 2 colors - so just by the numbers, odds of color screw are a bit greater.  4 jace IS always the right number in my opinion/experience.  In every blue deck I've played, it has always done best with 4 jace.  Jace is the nuts on crack with a steroid booster shot.  When you draw extras, he can even put his kin back in the deck.  He is uberversatile, pain-free +1 CA every turn, and can kill without help from any card.  Doesn't get better than that.

I don't think vault/key is needed only because the deck just...wins.  It doesn't need an extra win now, because the deck is "I am playing UW bomberman, so I win now".  Tinker BSC is nice because it is a one card combo with a retarded amount of counters to protect.  Drawing the deck, or even just lotus/BSC with auriok gives you the win too.

To give you an example of how bonkers this deck is...

I'm playing dark times with pithing needles, obliterators, and a crapton of discard w/ lillianas.  Before my opponent gets to set up, I drop needle for jace.  I drop null rod.  I duress like a boss (several getting misstepped/flustered/FoWed).  I set up the hexmage combo.  What does my opponent do?  With only 4 mana and a neutered Jace...he rips plow, killing Merit.  EoT, he casts sabotage, bouncing rod.  He drops EE@1, killing needle.  He jacestorms and drops lotus.  He casts auriok, then trinket, then spellbomb, then his deck.  So with a big fatty to block his weenies, a needle to shut off his jace, and a rod to cut off his artifacts - I got bitchsmacked in one turn, had all my permanents returned to my hand, and stared at an army of Jace, BSC, and 10 weenies that were hasty thanks to time walk.  GG.

This deck is retarded good.  Even with discard, needles, null rod, and fatter weenies - I can't beat it.

[Phele]

4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage
2 Auriok Salvager
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Spell Snare
3 Mental Misstep
2 Swords to Plowshares

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
3 Jace, the Minsculptor

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Tolarian Acadamy

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

Just as food for thought, this is how I could see a streamlined UBW version which is close to the UW list. As the UW version it focuses just on the Bomberman combo, plays a simliar counter shell and avoids any topdeck tutors.  Cavern is good in this deck, as it plays more creatures and all are humans. The manabase is worse, but maybe an early Confidant can compensate that. The Oath matchup is worse, the Control matchup is imo better. It is strange to play a Bob deck without Will, Tinker and Library, but the deck plays out quite consistanty. Other cards to think about are the fourth Trinket, Vampiric Tutor, Ponder, Cage, possible cards to cut are the two Snapcasters and the Thirst.

I am still undecided, which version I like more, but I think it is worth to compare them and make the best out of two worlds.

[kalisia]

@ the argument that R>W for MUD match, I'd have to say that blue has hurkylls, which is probably better than chewer in a lot of cases, but white also has serenity, which is huge.  For 1W you can disenchant and kill an artifact, or for 1W you can kill ALL artifacts.  Serenity is a HOUSE against artifact decks.  It's shatterstorm, but half the cost.

I was thinking exactly the same.
Phele forgot Serenity! Basically the best anti artifact card.

An Ingot Chewer or a Rack and Ruiw will never be as strong as Serenity against MUD.

And I see that a card is forgotten, and it's a blue card : Energy Flux.
It costs 3 so it's hard to play against MUD, but you need just ONCE three manas, and the card beats MUD alone.

[Phele]

Again: You can't compare Ingot Chewer and Serenity. Ingot Chewer (or in the UW lists staff like Steel Sabotage or Disenchant), which is unaffected by Thorn and Chalice, is a very effective single removal that first brings you in the position to cast things like Serenity, which is affected by all Spheres and Chalice 2. Also don't underestimate the turn you have to wait after you played Serenity, this can hurt a lot when you topdeck it in the midgame while facing lets say a Golem and a Revoker. But we already had that and I stay exactly where I was before: So far red has the best answers to Shops. StP/Disenchant/Serenity or Trygon/Claim/Dismember are usually worse than Chewer/Viashino/Bolt. It might be enough to beat MUD without red (especially the green version has a good shot, even though Metamorph hurts a lot), but is easier with red.

So let's better lock at your second point: I have found Energy Flux and Kataki to be not more than mediocre in the MUD matchup. When you don't play any form of mana denial like Wasteland and Null Rod, it is pretty easy for MUD to pay the Kataki-Mana for the key lock or creature elements. And you are right: It is quite ambitious to play a three mana enchantment against sphere.dec, but even when you manage to resolve one, it can still be not enough. MUD is playing the full set of Ancient Tombs and several other non Shop lands to at least make its Golem survive. Not to talk about the Metalworker builds, which are quite common in my meta.

[kalisia]

I talked about Energy Flux, not Kataki.
For sure, Kataki is not enough strong to beat MUD.
But between 1 extra to pay, and 2 extra mana to pay, there is a huge difference.
I never saw MUD win against me when I resolved an Energy Flux.
With only Wastelands, Mishra's Factories and Ancient Tomb able to give the mana needed (MWS can't give this mana), MUD can keep only very few artifacts in play.
MUD has to choose between keep in play its threats or its locks (without lock pieces, opponent can easily win (Hurkyl EOT for example), and without pressure, opponent can take time to lay his mana base). For example, MUD needs 4 mana per turn to keep a Golem and an Sphere in play (wich is the minimum to lock seriously an opponent)

I didn't say Chewer is a bad card, this is probably the best 1-for-1 card against MUD.
But I agree with those who think that mass denial cards are more efficient.

I continue to think and say that Energy Flux beats alone MUD.
Yes, the dice roll is very important in tgis match-up, and yes, sometimes you will not be able to cast a 3-mana cost spell the entire game.
But it occurs also a lot for 1-mana spells.
Sometimes, MUD is broken, it plays Golem+Sphere on turn 1, and you lose even with 4 Ingot Chewer in hand, because you can't cast ONE spell in the game. That's Vintage.

I saw many decks resolve 3 Chewer and lose against MUD.

Don't forget you play FoW and Mana Drain. MUD has not 100% of the time impossible starting hands.
Sometimes, you just need to FoW the right artifact, and you're able to resolve Flux.
I saw Spanish players sideboard another card that I found to be a very clever choice : Porcelain Legionnaire (and it's white, nice for Bomberman )
This choice is not fighting against lock piece, but it tries to keep you alive against the Turn1-Golem-MUD-broken hands.

Legionnaire is not affected by Golem neither Thorn. It's a good solution to stop a turn1 Golem (It would be interesting to know the % of games that MUD wins only with the turn 1 MWS+Mox+ Golem, it may be huge IMHO)

[Phele]

I talked about Energy Flux, not Kataki.

True, but I think it is more worthwile to talk about the "upkeep-pay-for-strategy" in general, which already got successfully used in tournament play

SB:
1 Moat
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant
2 Energy Flux
1 Pithing Needle
2 Kataki, War’s Wage
1 Serenity

Here we have all the white and blue artifact hosers together and it seem to work against Shops. Maybe one or two Devout Witnesses would help as well, as they interact with Cavern of Souls.

a very clever choice : Porcelain Legionnaire

I think Porcelain Legionnaire is cute, not more. Yes it acts as a wall against Golems but doesn't hinder them from executing their game plane, to lock you out.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Thank you for making my point for me.

I didn't make your point for you. Those cards I listed don't get touch BSC. Also time vault is a liability with decks running main deck artifact hate too bc salvagers can't bring that back. Key does nothing on its own nor does vault. This deck wants to take as much advantage of every single card. I don't care if you don't agree with me and you can nit pick at my argument all you want, Thanks.

Also this deck will win the Jace war between other blue decks with its high creature count and 4 jace...so BSC in this deck is not a liability at all. Like I said you can nit pick and disagree all you want.

Another reason in which 4 jace is great in this deck is because once you have salvagers you can use jace to bounce a trinket back to hand to find the last piece of the combo. Let me guess you will say that's a niche and doesn't happen often? No this is actually a line of play which happens often!

[kalisia]

I don't understand why this thread is becoming a debate between which version is the best.

Both versions (UW and UWB) are good, but are not designed for the same playstyle plan.

Uw is more controlish, and Uwb more comboish.

Ok, everybody in the world has seen that Kohler is chaining the top8s with the UW version, but this is not a clue indicating that it is the best version. It shows that it is currently the version prefered by some good players in tournament.

For sure, Jace is a good card, Trinket is not a bad card as well, but I think experience has showed enough that Vampiric Tutor, Demonic tutor, Tinker , and Yawgmoth's Will (this one not present in Phele list?) are cards that win games on their own. If a player wants to add a black splash in a Bomberman list, it's not a crime, and I will say that the power of the 4 cards quoted before are a very good reason to add a color splash in a deck.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I agree this thread has spiraled a little out of control. I personally like UW better, opinion or truth or whatever it be that's how I feel. Sorry if I turned this into a debate or offended anyone it wasn't my intention here. I just am a huge fan for the UW variants and maybe I got too excited in promoting those lists lol

[Phele]

Vampiric Tutor, Demonic tutor, Tinker , and Yawgmoth's Will (this one not present in Phele list?)

It is missing Vamp and Tinker as well ...

[kalisia]

I agree this thread has spiraled a little out of control. I personally like UW better, opinion or truth or whatever it be that's how I feel. Sorry if I turned this into a debate or offended anyone it wasn't my intention here. I just am a huge fan for the UW variants and maybe I got too excited in promoting those lists lol

No problem, everybody has his preferences, but if we want to be impartial, we can say that both versions are strong

Vampiric Tutor, Demonic tutor, Tinker , and Yawgmoth's Will (this one not present in Phele list?)

It is missing Vamp and Tinker as well ...

Yes, sorry, I looked quickly at your list, thinking it was similar to the first list posted
In a Uwb Bomberman version, I always play these 4 cards

[Cruel Ultimatum]

Tinker is at an all time low becayse of jace, metamorphs, hurlyls, etc. topdeck tutors aren't that great imo. Yawg will was in my original list I played to win an nev back in june, but I cut it because I never wanted to draw it. This is for two reasons, one is that I dont have as many broken spells because of the counterspells in my deck, and the other is that since my wills are only value wills, by the time I want to cast will snapcaster has already exiled the good targets.

Which leads me to my next point, of why I only play 2 jaces. Although I think 3 is good as well, the point at which I want to be casting jace is around turn 6 or 7, because I would rathee play defense (preferably with a bob in play). Playing two means that I will usually have access to it by then, and I only need one to resolve. Furthermore, I have demonic tutor, which can go find jace if I want it. Relying in a 4 mana sorcery speed card as a draw engine is just not my kind of game.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Tinker is at an all time low becayse of jace, metamorphs, hurlyls, etc. topdeck tutors aren't that great imo. Yawg will was in my original list I played to win an nev back in june, but I cut it because I never wanted to draw it. This is for two reasons, one is that I dont have as many broken spells because of the counterspells in my deck, and the other is that since my wills are only value wills, by the time I want to cast will snapcaster has already exiled the good targets.

Which leads me to my next point, of why I only play 2 jaces. Although I think 3 is good as well, the point at which I want to be casting jace is around turn 6 or 7, because I would rathee play defense (preferably with a bob in play). Playing two means that I will usually have access to it by then, and I only need one to resolve. Furthermore, I have demonic tutor, which can go find jace if I want it. Relying in a 4 mana sorcery speed card as a draw engine is just not my kind of game.

Again, I think 4 jace is right, because he can often come on turn 1 or 2 and does more than draw 1 card.  The hand sculpting is more powerful of an effect than bob's draw 1, and the bounce is good early too.  Bob is good though, and nice that he's an uncounterable human with caverns...he will consistently hit play on turn 1 more than jace, it's true.  I guess the difference is if you choose more powerful effects and versatility or speed.
One thing I wonder - and I like tinker in that it is trinket mage #5 that happens to grab BSC - if you WERE going to try vault/key, would it be good to try tezzeret in place of maybe jace#4 or something else?  I'm thinking of him because he's a reuseable trinket mage that puts stuff straight into play.  Also, trinket will most likely get you lotus anyway, so you quickly jump from 3 mana to 6 there...enough to tezz with counter backup (fluster/snare). Then you have multiple ways to abuse vault and when null rod is out, a 5/5 army isn't bad.
Just an idea.

[A.-1.]

@kalisia: Energy Flux does not win games versus Workshop decks by itself. Heck, two Energy Fluxes won't necessarily win the game. It's very strong if you ever get a chance to resolve it, but I've seen plenty of Shop pilots win through an Energy Flux. How big is your sample size that you can say Energy Flux wins 100% of the games it resolves?

Yup, you got me, Josh. I don't know anything about anything.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

I lost a game to raff at the nev where I resolved energy flux. He was pretty fortunate to draw an ancient tomb the turn after I resolved the flux, but I cant complain. I was planning to play a 1-1 split of flux and witness at the event but couldnt find my devout witness as I rushed to put the deck together as I was walking out the door. As far as kataki is concerned, I like it as a way to slow the shop deck down so I can cast some bigger threats.

[Prospero]

I'm 50/50 against Flux.  I've beaten turn one Flux, and the last time I beat a Flux, I did it against U/W Bomberman.  It's a good answer, if you can resolve it, but it's not enough on its own.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I'm 50/50 against Flux.  I've beaten turn one Flux, and the last time I beat a Flux, I did it against U/W Bomberman.  It's a good answer, if you can resolve it, but it's not enough on its own.

Energy flux is not as good as it seems.  It's actually best on turn 1, as it slows them down and hinders their ability to cast and then pay for peices.  It's generally uncastable much after turn 1 anyway. But after turn 1, they should have some development of non-shop, non-moxen mana, and then can choose which pieces to keep. Typically, they'll keep golem or smokestack or spheres and let everything else die.  If they can even keep a single golem on the board, your spells get pricey, and they smash face.  The big difference between flux and other spells is choice.  With removal, you choose what they lose.  With flux, they choose...and that can be detrimental to you.
By this logic, I also really like hurkyll's.  It's not targeted removal in a traditional way, but it kind of is too.  It is mass removal for 1 unmolested turn.  If timed right, it sweeps their board EoT, forcing them to discard either excelleration, lands, or other lock peices...so you remove SOME things there.  But then the snares you drew later on and the other spells you drew that became uncastable are now active again.  You can hit the spheres they dropped on turn 1 before you drew snare.  You can counter the golem they dropped the turn before you ripped your FoW.  It let's them choose the hand they keep, but also let's you cherry pick their hand when they replay things.  If you don't just go off and win on your "free" turn, you can really smash their reset-up and leave them crippled.  Maybe they pitched their additional thorns/crucible to keep sphere/golem, but now that you can counter those, they have no backup and no redundancy.  Hurkyll's is like balance for artifacts in that it negates all of their previous turns and makes them only select a couple threats (even moreso if many of their threats came off mox mana).  My FAVORITE is serenity, but hurks is a blue instant, so it has a bonus there.  When castable though, serenity is probably the best sweeper and even hits oath decks.

[kalisia]

@kalisia: Energy Flux does not win games versus Workshop decks by itself. Heck, two Energy Fluxes won't necessarily win the game. It's very strong if you ever get a chance to resolve it, but I've seen plenty of Shop pilots win through an Energy Flux. How big is your sample size that you can say Energy Flux wins 100% of the games it resolves?

I obviously talked about my own experience, I never lost against MUD when I resolved Flux.

When I say Flux wins itself, I consider that the Flux player is doing the right choices and the right plays. Obviously, if you don't counter the right spells or if you draw 10 lands in your 10 next draws, you can't do miracles...

But anyway, like TheWhiteDragon, my favorite card, by far, is SERENITY !
We need to be careful with the turn we give before we can destroy everything, that is true, but this disavantage must be accepted, in exchange of the HUGE advantage it gives you when your swap all the artifacts for one single two-mana spell!
(I remember one game where I had Serenity and could cast it against MUD, but it had played a Hellkite the turn before, and the beast was able to destroy the enchantment if Serenity was played form my hand. In this case, you need to destroy Hellkite before you play Serenity). Except the case "Hellkite", I don't see other MUD threats that can handle with Serenity.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

@kalisia: Energy Flux does not win games versus Workshop decks by itself. Heck, two Energy Fluxes won't necessarily win the game. It's very strong if you ever get a chance to resolve it, but I've seen plenty of Shop pilots win through an Energy Flux. How big is your sample size that you can say Energy Flux wins 100% of the games it resolves?

Yup, you got me, Josh. I don't know anything about anything.

I never said that, idk why u insist on not picking your way into arguments so just drop it. We don't see eye to eye on this deck oh well.

On the topic of energy flux, it can win the game but sometimes it doesn't. Or sometimes you get sphered out of casting it. I feel like serenity is a great option. I have had success with flux in the past in different decks so I have mixed feelings on that.