Nightveil Specter

[MaximumCDawg]

See at the Mothership: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/arcana/1138

Nightveil Specter
U/B U/B U/B
2/3
Flying
Whenever Nightveil Specter deals combat damage to a player, that player exiles the top card of his or her library.
You may play cards exiled with Nightveil Specter.

This card seems significantly better in Vintage than other formats, if only because of the more limited pool of expected playables.  In this format, it might as well read: "When this deals damage, draw 3/4 of a card."

Is this card good enough?  It joins a relatively short list of Ophidans in the format.  We got Ohran Viper, Dimir Cutpurse, Cold-Eyed Selkie, that one W/U Kithkin, and then a bunch of inferior mono-U ones.  Specter has a bigger butt than most of these and it has evasion.  I dunno if he has a home, but I feel like he should be on the radar.

[serracollector]

Not just that, but he does remove a threat from opponents deck for free. Also it plays really nicely with Dr. Shaman allowing you to play anything you steal in spite of colors.

BUG fish is really getting some nice toys.  3-4 of these, 3-4 Dr. Shaman, 2-3 Trygon, 4 Bobs, and a few Snaps is a lot of viable threats now.

[Saya]

And Specter is also monoblack.This means it is 1st turn playable w/ritual.

[Blue Lotus]

It's cool but it basically just does two damage to them a turn. unplayable.

[MaximumCDawg]

It's cool but it basically just does two damage to them a turn. unplayable.

Wha?

He does more than that, that's the point.  The milling / cap effect is marginal at best, but since Vintage has such a small pool of playables, you're very likely to hit something you can use.  So I'm saying this duder really reads "draw a card" 3/4 of the time.  That's the only reason he's even interesting.

Not just that, but he does remove a threat from opponents deck for free. Also it plays really nicely with Dr. Shaman allowing you to play anything you steal in spite of colors.

BUG fish is really getting some nice toys.  3-4 of these, 3-4 Dr. Shaman, 2-3 Trygon, 4 Bobs, and a few Snaps is a lot of viable threats now.

Dr. Shaman?  I'm calling my Deathrite Shamen "Dr. Facilier" from now on!

[serracollector]

Honestly I think this card is quite amazing as you can play any card he steals including lands.  Even just stealing a land or mox or 2, helps push your front foward so much faster.

[MaximumCDawg]

Honestly I think this card is quite amazing as you can play any card he steals including lands.  Even just stealing a land or mox or 2, helps push your front foward so much faster.

Let's not be too hasty.  It's not better than just drawing a card, and it's not obvious to me that a U/B x3, 2/3 flying Ophidan would even see play.  That's the question I wanted to answer in making this thread, cuz I don't know.  Heck, wasn't the original 3 cc draw a card after Ophidan a creature with Fear?  The one with Finkel's face?  Is this any better than that?

I guess you get an advantage of sorts in that whatever you exile cannot be duressed.  But if they kill the specter, then the cards go poof, so seems like a wash. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think this card MAY see some play, but there are a few things to consider...

The good news is that Dr. Shaman (if there are lands in the grave) can help with some color fixing.  Some cards you flip can be nice to cast as well.

1) You will flip over a card you can't cast 1/3 of the time (off color, too expensive, ineffective).  The effect is totally luck-based.
2) This guy is 3 colored mana, so an off color mox, sol ring, etc won't help you cast him.
3) This card has lots of competition for 3 mana with a similar function.   Shadowmage infiltrator has fear, but is 2 colors - so this guy is probably better.  Dimir Cutpurse has perhaps the best of the abilities, but no evasion and two colors, so unplayable for the most part.  These two are deceptively similar, but not nearly as playable.
Hypnotic specter is functionally the same evasive body off a ritual - except a random discard affects the game a bit more than a 2/3rds draw, I think. Thada Adel has a broken ability that can grab win conditions and has islandwalk - but you have to cast the spell that turn and can only get artifacts.  Thada is also double blue, so hard to protect when cast and slower since you can't ritual her out.

So, really I think the call on this guy falls into "where would you want to run hypnotic specter?"  If you wouldn't want Hyppie, you probably wouldn't want this guy.

[MaximumCDawg]

Of course, if you know whats on top of the library, then Specter becomes just like Jace's +1 ability...

[TheWhiteDragon]

Of course, if you know whats on top of the library, then Specter becomes just like Jace's +1 ability...

Which basically only happens if your opponent imperial seals (you know it's something good), or you use jace's +1 before attacking.  If you're in a position to use Jace's +1 consistently, then you could go the distance with Mon's Goblin Raiders.

[MaximumCDawg]

So you don't think my plan for Field of Dreams.dec is worth pursuing, huh?

[gkraigher]

I don't see it.  Its really bad in every format except vintage, where its casting cost seems too cost prohibitive to be effective.  Its not good vs. Dredge or Shops, so that makes it a blue mirror match card or an extra fish/delver creature.  It could be very good in the mirror match, but is it better than flusterstorm/mental misstep?  It seems like its top would be becoming a metagame card in a heavy blue environment.  

[TheWhiteDragon]

So you don't think my plan for Field of Dreams.dec is worth pursuing, huh?

I don't even think thinking of a plan for field of dreams is worth pursuing.

[serracollector]

I don't understand how this card isn't good.  Hit you, reveal a land, 1 more mana for me, 1 less for you.
Hit you reveal a counterspell, now I got mine and yours.
Hit your reveal a discard effect, triple CA ftw.
Hit you, reveal any restricted card, I win?

It removes threats from your opponents deck for FREE and allows you to play them.  True it is random, but as this is Vintage, ANYTHING we grab is going to be stupid good, and removing opponents stupid good cards, and being able to play them ourselves, makes this card seem a little ridiculous to me. 

It isn't just a "swing and draw" creature, its a "swing, remove a threat from opponents deck, and throw it back in there face".  How is that bad???

Its better than thada, hippy, and rootwater theif. 

Maybe I will just make a deck with 4 Grimiore Theif and 4 of these, and see how ppl do when I start removing all their 1 of win conditions by tapping dudes.  And then beat them with their own cards.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I don't understand how this card isn't good.  Hit you, reveal a land, 1 more mana for me, 1 less for you.
Hit you reveal a counterspell, now I got mine and yours.
Hit your reveal a discard effect, triple CA ftw.
Hit you, reveal any restricted card, I win?

It removes threats from your opponents deck for FREE and allows you to play them.  True it is random, but as this is Vintage, ANYTHING we grab is going to be stupid good, and removing opponents stupid good cards, and being able to play them ourselves, makes this card seem a little ridiculous to me. 

It isn't just a "swing and draw" creature, its a "swing, remove a threat from opponents deck, and throw it back in there face".  How is that bad???

Its better than thada, hippy, and rootwater theif. 

Maybe I will just make a deck with 4 Grimiore Theif and 4 of these, and see how ppl do when I start removing all their 1 of win conditions by tapping dudes.  And then beat them with their own cards.

Except for:

Hit you, flip golgari grave troll
Hit you, flip thorn of amethyst
Hit you, flip gaddock teeg
Hit you, flip null rod
Hit you, flip fetchland you don't use

Yes, you can hit the nuts, but you can also hit crap - and many decks are redundant enough to not care about losing their top card.  If you are running U/B, it gets better since you have double the colors to abuse what your opponent plays...but then you probably aren't running rituals, and then this guy is a turn 2-3 drop at best.

The guy's not BAD.  But then again, hippie isn't BAD either - it's just not good enough that people use him.  Maybe the color flexibility makes nightveil more usable.  He's also super killable with bolt, REB, etc and then you spent 3 mana for nothing when you could have spent 3 mana to win the game (tinker, yawg will, necro, etc).

[serracollector]

If you manage to hit your dredge opponent, you shoulda won already thru a Leyline or Cage or w/e.  Dredge is 100% irrelevant as its simply "do I have the SB hate for it"  nothing maindecked by anyone is good versus dredge, so thats a null argument (unless your hate.dec running maindeck cage etc).

As for removing a Thorn/Sphere, well thats 1 less thorn of sphere I have to worry about, removing threats is still removing threats.  In a sense this guy is almost better than Hippy as your opponent (should) always have a deck to remove cards from, but not always have a card to discard to hippy.

As for the CC, as I said I see this mainly used in the BUG decks that are becoming more and more prominent due to Dr. Shaman.  With 4 trops, 4 sea, 4 bayou, fetches, and 4 dr Shaman/Noble Hierarchs, you got your colors covered, so turn 2 is not uncommon at all.

The idea is if your not removing the nuts u can use, your removing the nuts so they cant use them.  Either way its win win.

[MaximumCDawg]

I don't understand how this card isn't good.  Hit you, reveal a land, 1 more mana for me, 1 less for you.
Hit you reveal a counterspell, now I got mine and yours.
Hit your reveal a discard effect, triple CA ftw.
Hit you, reveal any restricted card, I win?

It removes threats from your opponents deck for FREE and allows you to play them.  True it is random, but as this is Vintage, ANYTHING we grab is going to be stupid good, and removing opponents stupid good cards, and being able to play them ourselves, makes this card seem a little ridiculous to me.  

It isn't just a "swing and draw" creature, its a "swing, remove a threat from opponents deck, and throw it back in there face".  How is that bad???

Its better than thada, hippy, and rootwater theif.  

Maybe I will just make a deck with 4 Grimiore Theif and 4 of these, and see how ppl do when I start removing all their 1 of win conditions by tapping dudes.  And then beat them with their own cards.

I can't tell if you are trolling, and I don't mean that sarcastically.  Better than cards that let you search and exile something, like Thalia...?

Anyway, the milling effect is absolutely useless in all cases where neither play has information about the top card.  Mill away a random card; guess what, they've got another random card on top.  You've accomplished nothing.  In fact, potentially worse than nothing.  Are you more likely to hit the one Time Vault when you mill a random card in a 35 card library, or more likely to hit one of the other 34 cards?  (Being able to PLAY the card, and therefore be sort-of card draw, is the only practical effect of the ability.)

However, this changes if the card on top is known somehow.  Either because someone top deck tutored before your attack step (LOL...?) or because you have seen it.  That's why I half-jokingly suggested Field of Dreams.  If you saw the top card, you can choose to attack, or not, in order to deny them the card.  In this sense, it's a rather strong soft lock, just like Jace's +1.  It requires your opponent to have two good cards on top at the same time to draw out of the problem.  So, if you're winning on the board, and you can see the top deck, you have a pretty strong control over what happens.

[gkraigher]

Isn't Thada Adel better than this card?

[MaximumCDawg]

Isn't Thada Adel better than this card?

Yes. 

Well, she can't block fliers, and her ability is less like "draw a card" and more like Jester's Cap, and her evasion is different, but...

Yes.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Tested it in dark times - and it's very underwhelming there.

I'd often flip FoW, fetch, trinket mage, heirarch, sphere, bolt, etc - nothing I could cast/use.  I'd occasionally snag a sensei top.  If that specter had been phyrexian arena like I was running in that slot, I'd have drawn 4+ usable cards instead of dealt 8 damage and flipped nothing of consequence.  I think in DT however, the plan is more to kill in one swoop, so cumulative damage has little effect, and drawing my own combo/disruption has a higher value.  I'll be testing it in my B/R build, but that doesn't run rituals and hitting BBB will be tougher since some mountains will sneak in there.  I'm assuming this is ONLY going to be good in U/B since the card you are removing are often U/B.  It would also have to be an incremental damage deck as opposed to a deck that wants to draw a 1 turn win.  BUx might be the only place it works.  Mana fixers will help, but this will certainly need a creature-centric deck built to take advantage of the effect - not a plug-in to any control build.

Probably not news there, but at least my testing confirms it.

[xouman]

Although the card is very cute, I agree that it's not better than hippie or thada, or even vendillion/trygon/selkie (different effect but similar body/cost). the color cost is quite expensive and the fact it takes a random card is important against non-mirror pairings. If opponent has a SDT in play, it gets even worse.

with deathrite shaman it improves, as it's easier to cast itself and the cards it grabs. still it feels vulnerable and not a real finisher.

[Charlie]

Preator's Grasp failed, which probably explain why nagging a card from oppo's deck isn't as good as a card from your's.

[Methuselahn]

Seems cool.  Unfortunately, it doesn't offer any board or hand control.  Can't wait to take it during a draft tournament, though.

[Charlie]

Isn't Thada Adel better than this card?

I was once two-shot by Thada Adel, taking Key-Vault. Thada Adel is still seldom good enough to be played.

[Bill Copes]

Historically, "steal things from your library" effects haven't been playable in vintage(*,**).  I feel this card heavily echoes this trend.

*   Your opponent's deck don't mesh with your deck's strategy

Hit you, flip golgari grave troll
Hit you, flip thorn of amethyst
Hit you, flip gaddock teeg
Hit you, flip null rod
Hit you, flip fetchland you don't use

** Bribery has briefly been an exception tot his trend in some cases (Oath sideboards in the past)

[mike_bergeron]

This reminds me of the time I cast Telemins performance playing sindbad.dec , it was awesome.  Sindbad is basically a better dark confidant, in almost every way.

I lost the game, but I liked the card.  I like this card too. 

[MaximumCDawg]

This reminds me of the time I cast Telemins performance playing sindbad.dec , it was awesome.  Sindbad is basically a better dark confidant, in almost every way.

I lost the game, but I liked the card.  I like this card too. 

He's a Dark Confidant that only draws you lands.  How is that better?

[mike_bergeron]

This reminds me of the time I cast Telemins performance playing sindbad.dec , it was awesome.  Sindbad is basically a better dark confidant, in almost every way.

I lost the game, but I liked the card.  I like this card too. 

He's a Dark Confidant that only draws you lands.  How is that better?

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43394.msg598964#msg598964

Sindbad is blue, doesn't cost you life, and is amazing. 

[Wagner]

This reminds me of the time I cast Telemins performance playing sindbad.dec , it was awesome.  Sindbad is basically a better dark confidant, in almost every way.

I lost the game, but I liked the card.  I like this card too. 

He's a Dark Confidant that only draws you lands.  How is that better?

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43394.msg598964#msg598964

Sindbad is blue, doesn't cost you life, and is amazing. 

But it doesn't draw reliably and doesn't swing for 2.

[MaximumCDawg]

I feel like Specter is probably equal in power level and niche play to Sindbad, having thought about it.  Sindbad is easier to cast, but much smaller and without evasion.  If you don't have a way of manipulating your topdeck, Sindbad probably draws you cards roughly as reliably as Specter does.  The fact that he bins non-land cards can be an advantage in some matchups.  It is also relevant that Sindbad removes the top card whatever it is; in other words, he does not simply exile your gas and leave you with land, he serves up a new random topdeck just like Specter does.  So he's deceptively not terrible.