Human Ingenuity

[Stormanimagus]

Human Ingenuity

So I swore a while back that I wouldn't post in this section of the forums, but I look at this as too important not to share with the community. I doubt I'll have a chance to top 8 with this deck any time soon (I just don't have the money/time/venue to play in that is sufficiently easy to warrant doing so given the fact that I am trying to start a career in Film Scoring). I am sad that I no longer have an easy and accessible venue to play at least once a month. If the Hadley scene was still going strong I might consider it, but it is pretty much dead. Also I may be moving to L.A soon so if that scene is easy and accessible I may try again. I'd have to think long and hard about it though, because I know magic is a slippery slope and I don't want to lose focus of my career goals. So. . .

Now, after that opening statement, on to the deck. This deck is really for the innovators in the room. I want to be as thorough as possible in not only describing the list, but also board slot still up for debate (the main is pretty much set). This list deserves attention (maybe even tournament battle testing *cough cough*) because it completely trumps certain control cards by using cards like Cavern of Souls (Force of Will, Mana Drain) or Mayor of Avabruck (Tangle Wire). There is also the age old problem of Chalice @2 for a deck like this. Guess what, Cavern answers that as well! I often just ignore Chalice @2 by have a Cavern or two in play against shops. Also, as you'll notice. I have a 3 CMC card that finds Cavern of Souls. Teehee. Lastly, before we get to the list I want to acknowledge Guli for his work in developing many key card choices of this list. He deserves a lot of credit for card choices like Mayor of Avabruck and Thalia as a 4-of. He intrigued me first. The deck's performance on Cockatrice made me a believer. Ok. Now to the list:

Human Ingenuity

Land (22):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith

Artifacts (10):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
3 Grafdigger's Cage

Enchantments (3):
3 Stony Silence

Creatures (25):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mayor Of Avabruck
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Glowrider
3 Knight of the Reliquary

Sideboard (15):
4 Fiend Hunter
1 Stony Silence
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage


O.K! Now we analyze. First I want to get to a card that many seasoned Vintage-rs may not know. I give you:


                                                                                     Upon the condition
                                                                of 0 spells being
                                                                cast in a turn he
                                                                becomes this
                                                                beastly card:

                                                       


Now you might argue that this guy isn't Vintage playable as he is only a lord/ 3/3 creator, but if you look a little deeper you may find yourself loving this guy in a few key match-ups. Ok, really you could stop at shops. Let's be honest, that is where you need this guy. At the moment, I maindeck him cause he also has decent applications against Jace and slow, Tempo-based Jace lists. Oh, and he's real good against Fish. But, back to shops. Here's the card it really gives you a meaningful answer to:



Why, you ask? Well imagine you are under an active Tangle and your opponent is wasting your lands right and left (this has happened to me before). With no lands and perms getting tapped down you have no hope right? WRONG. I've won this specific type of game many times. You just sit back and do nothing on your turn. Then Mayor of Avabruck becomes Howlpack Alpha and providing your opponent doesn't play 2 spells (Often shops cannot after the first 1-2 turns of the game unless they are sandbagging moxen, which they often shouldn't against you) you now have a steady stream of 3/3's that double as a threat that kills a lodestone and a perm that can be tapped to Tangle Wire. Tangle Wire has long been the bain of other Hate-bear decks and I really think Mayor is one of the best solutions I've seen come along at a reasonable cost.

Next, let's get to the Knight + Toolbox:





This guys finds some important 1-ofs:
                                                                                  

                                                                                    which answers:
                                                             

                                                                                    which answers:
                                                               

                                                                                    


                                                                                    which answers,   uh. . .       Dredge?




Now the other HUGELY important thing about Knight is that it is your rock against decks running these two nightmare cards:





I cannot express enough how important Knight is to this deck. He was the linchpin to make this deck compete despite the the decks that run infi bolts and a pyroclasm or two. Obviously you still have to play around these cards (don't overcommit etc.), but Knight is a Trump that you can play aggressively and often uncounterably against Landstill or Jace-Blue. He is also very effective against Dredge (finds Bog/Waste) and Shops (finds Bog/Waste). I'm not sure I can think of a matchup where you side this guy out. That is how versatile he is. Just. . . a. . . BOMB!

I think there isn't much explanation needed to explain choices like Grafdigger's Cage, Stony Silence, Noble Hierarch, Dark Confidant, and Thalia. However, I would just like to point out that Thalia as a 4-of is not a mistake. In any matchup that isn't Shops or Fish you want this guy on turn 1 off Cavern + Mox. Sometimes Land + Mox is also fine (if they don't have the Force). She will draw bolts like a mother fucker so I run 4. I like consistency. She is the back-bone of this deck. You run 4 (though you side out between 1-3 vs. shops depending on the build of shops).

I think the other cards don't need much explanation. Grafdiggers' Cage + Stony Silence is simply the best 1-2 punch you can run to cut off strategies that aren't yours . One could argue that running full moxen in my list isn't a great idea with Stony, but part of what makes this deck compete so well is turn 1 Mox + Land into turn 1 2-drop.

Ok, now let's get to the matchups for the real meat on how to play this deck:

1. Forgemaster Shops

This matchup (and most shop variants) comes down to a couple key cards -> Mayor, Confidant, Pridemage, Wastes.



These 4 cards in some combination are the cards you want to see in every opening 7. If you don't have any of them chances are you are mulling that hand.
If you are on the draw you may also want to strongly consider only keeping a hand with at least 1 mox in it. If you are on the play, then Noble Hierarch becomes an acceptable replacement for a mox. You are often going to play the role of "mana-denier" oddly enough with your slew of wastes and with your 3-4 stony silence. You need to try to drop a threat and then ride the control role until the end of the game. Will some shop openers still beat you? Of course. That is Vintage. Broken things happen. But I've found that many shop openers do not. The only ones that consistently win against us are (and this is only if they are on the play): Shop, Mox, Chalice @0, Lodestone & Turn 1 Trinisphere. Those 2 openers are pretty much impossible to beat when on the draw. Also turn 1 Metalworker (though Metalworker is not really in most good Forgemaster lists) can also spell doom if you don't have turn 1 Stony. Fortunately, we run 4 of them after sideboard (against the Worker variants and some Kuldotha ones as well) so our odds of hitting one are just as good as theirs of hitting Worker.

So, How does one Board this matchup?

Well, spheres and cages are all but useless against this deck sooo. . .

-3 Grafdigger's Cage
-3 Glowrider
-3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-1 Karakas

+3 Ghost Quarter
+1 Forest
+1 Plains
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Stony (Debatable depending on their build)
+3-4 Fiend Hunter

Fiend Hunter could get the raised eyebrow from you for being 1WW but if you establish control of the board you don't want to lose to a topdecked Wurmcoil Engine. Also, it is important to note that if they metamorph targetting a Howlpack Alpha they will get ONLY the Howlpack Alpha and it won't be able to be flipped back. This can be devastating for you as now THEY'LL get a steady stream of 3/3's and there won't be anything you can do about it. Fiend Hunter is your 1 get out of jail free card in this situation and many other dire ones.

Matching up against Espresso Shops or Terra Nova is similar to this matchup except that you really DON'T want Stonys after game particularly. Sometimes it helps to run 2 after boarding so you have that out to something like Ratchet Bomb, but usually I'd just say that you shouldn't overcommit (similar to playing around Pyroclasm). You will want your moxes against decks with Smokestack that attempt to grind the game out slowly. in those matchups I'd leave in some number of Thalias and the Karakas (it bounces Karn). Further testing will have to lead me to how to really play this matchup.

2. Burning Oath

This matchup also comes down to some key cards -> Stony Silence, Grafdigger's Cage, Thalia, Glowrider.



Now, it's important to note the value of cards like Pridemage and Knight in this matchup as well, but I'll get to them after discussing these 4 primary ones first.

Stony should be obvious to anyone who knows Menendian's winning Burning Oath list. Any deck going beyond the Full Mox suite to include 2 Mox Opal and 2 Chrome Mox is just asking to be turn 1 Stony Silenced . Stony Silence is your godsend and forces them to find a "fair" way to win the game (*hint hint* they often can't). Grafdigger's Cage is an out to very early Oath. Be careful though. If they are able to trigger Oath they often will even under a cage. if they do it might mean that they are about to Burning Wish for Show and Tell. This is where sideboard Fiend Hunters will make them feel the pain . And lastly, spheres, spheres, SPHERES! I am sad that we often only get to +1 on their spells, but you'd be surprised at how often +1 is enough to make their lives miserable.

Now, let's talk Knight. I'm not going to repeat the above visual representation showing how knight finds Karakas. against Griselbrand this is pretty key (most Burning Oath lists are running Brand and if they are not, well they probably aren't that good). If you can drop a Thalia/Glow early and then can also drop a Knight (even if that Knight only comes into play the turn before they Oath) then chances are you can just let Brand come into play and they won't be able to win with that 1 sphere effect in play. If they are forced to pass the turn then you just find Karakas. Then wait for them to go to their draw step on their next turn and bounce Brand. Now they can't Oath for that turn and they don't have a Brand. Voila!

So, Sideboarding!

-4 Mayor of Avabruck
-1 Maze of Ith

+1 Stony Silence
+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+3 Fiend Hunter

If they go to the Lab Maniac plan it becomes even more important to side in the Fiend Hunters as that is your only out to Maniac. Maniac is a very good strategy and I will have to think on a way to counter it. So far I'm drawing a blank.

3. Dredge

Ok. This Match-up comes down to the following maindeck cards -> Grafdigger's Cage, Knight of the Reliquary, Thalia, Glowrider



And the following sideboard cards -> Rest in Peace, Ghost Quarter



Since Dredge is really about game 1 as distinctly separate from games 2 & 3 let's discuss game 1 first. Obviously, you are the dog game 1, but not by as much as you might think. Your direct game 1 grave hate amounts to 3 cage and 1 Bojuka Bog but you also have 3 Knight of the Reliquary to find said Bojuka Bog. Game 1 wins are often going to revolve around a Cage + a Waste + a Thalia. If you can keep them off Therapy mana then you're in pretty good shape in game 1. Thalia and Glow are all stars at doing this. If you get 1 of each out, chances are they aren't casting anything this game and will have to rely on ichorids only to create tokens. If you can find a Knight early enough you can Bog once and then throw down a mayor or two to make tons of bigger tokens yourself. This is a matchup where Mayor shines by the way. Don't side him out!

Sideboard plan:

-3 Stony Silence
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Mox Ruby
-3 Qasali Pridemage

+3 Ghost Quarter
+3 Rest in Peace
+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Bojuka Bog

While pride can be useful for exiling bridges he really isn't useful enough to keep in after game 1 when you have much better hate waiting in the wings. Now some might say they know how to beat dredge games 2 & 3. Mull to a hand with maximum hate right? WRONG! You do want hate yes. Don't get me wrong. That is why I run so much of it. But, since you don't have an "insta-win" like Time Vault/Key or Tinker->Blightsteel you need to consider more than just "Do I have the hate?" You want a balance of hate and a threat or two. Ideally you want a solid threat like Mayor or Knight (Bob even works here as it draws you more threats) coupled with at least 1 waste effect (you run 8 now so odds are you may have 1 in the opener) and 1-2 pieces of hate. If you really want to get bonkers about it then a Thalia would also be nice, but that might be a bit too much to ask of a 6-7 card hand. If you have 3-4 of those elements (with 1 of them def. being hate) then you are probably in decent shape. I would also like to offer an explanation for my non-bo of Rest in Peace and Knight of the Reliquary. I've debated long and hard about this, and I believe that against Dredge you do really need a bomb hate card like RIP. I used to just run 3 more Bog and 2 Nihil Spellbomb out of the board and I would get beaten by dredge because they simply are powerful enough often enough. So with RIP sure Knight will only be a 2/2 ever, BUT you really don't need a bigger body than that as Mayor is your win con here. It makes you more reliant on Mayor to win games against Dredge, but I was just losing too many games to only having sorcery speed Bogs to answer the cards in my opponents Grave. Maybe there is a way to make the 4x Bog config work, but so far it is coming up short. Just remember, unlike blue decks you can handle a couple slow-rolled tokens from the dredge opponent. Thalia's First strike deals with ichorids just fine and producing a 3/3 every turn is also very helpful. Just don't let it get out of HAND!

4. Jace Grixis Control

Finally, on to big bad Jace. Beating this deck will really revolve around a couple cards --> Cavern, Thalia, Stony, Knight



Now I don't include Bob in this list for a very important reason. He really isn't the linchpin of this matchup the way he is against decks like Shops. I'm not saying there aren't game-states where he isn't great to draw and I wouldn't ever be unhappy to see him, but you really need 1 of these 4 cards in the early game. Cavern is hugely important in this matchup and I think having it in the opening hand addresses many of the concerns I'm hearing already about this deck not having a "draw engine."

:aside:

I've heard a lot of critiques about this deck not having a draw engine and this is the oldest argument against non-blue creature decks in the book. Did my old selkie lists have a "draw engine?" Sure they did. They NEEDED it because their whole gameplan was to out-draw a blue opponent on Force/Daze/Misstep, establish control, then beat with a goyf. What I found a while back with that deck is that it died way to easily to sequences like Bolt, Snap, Bolt and that it often just lost the Force war when it mattered most. This is one reason I've moved to a Cavern deck. Now we have a tool to fight counters/chalices that no other "Fish" deck has had to this point. It requires only a land drop and it can't be countered. All we fear is waste, and most of the time the only 2 decks I fear a wasteland from are shops and landstill. Landstill I crush, and shops wasting a turn 1 cavern means they aren't playing a shop so I'm probably winning at that point. People act like shops wasting 4 mana (or more with spheres) to cast a chalice @2 is really something they can afford to waste the tempo doing. Often they can't (or literally can't afford the 5-6 mana it may cost at that point due to any number of spheres on the board). If my shop opponent does turn 1 Chalice @2 I often just find a knight of the reliquary which then finds me Caverns. Back to the "draw engine" debate. Caverns alone is much better than any draw engine this deck could want because it assures your key turn 1 card resolution (whatever that card may be). If my blue opponent is sitting on turn 1 bob off a mox and I go turn 1 mox, cavern, Thalia, he just lost a huge bit of tempo there if he also had a force + blue card in hand. People responding to this post are confusing a Blue deck's need for dig for any other deck's need for a draw engine. Shops has never had one and most would say that it doesn't need one because of the virtual card advantage it gains through spheres. Blue is digging for specific restricted bombs, so seeing more different cards is in a blue deck's best interest. Having a tight, well-crafted 60 is what this deck is all about. Not drawing a billion cards a turn.

:end aside:

Blue comes down to a mix of a lot of game plans and you have to be willing to change roles on a dime. If the blue player gets greedy with his life total, sometimes the right move is to beat with that 5/5 Knight. If he looks like he is looking for a dt/vamp/or will and has much dig to find it now may be the time to waste his 1 sea in play. Sometimes it is important to hold back that Bob in hand have something to drop post pyroclasm and sometimes you need to bait a counter to maybe resolve a Stony. It is a cat and mouse game against Blue and they are a ticking time bomb of, well. . . BOMBS. They scary thing is that if you don't have pretty solid board control and you are at a stalemate with them (i.e topdeck mode) you are just a top-deck away from losing the game. This doesn't automatically mean you WILL lose the game, but you need to accept that if you didn't find a way to control the board there are any number of restricted cards they can just sorta "oops" into. Play smart, play tight, and you have a solid chance.

Board plan:

Boarding this matchup will entirely depend on the build, but against Grixis I usual go something like this:

-2 Mayor
-1 Karakas

+1 Stony
+2 Fiend Hunter

If you feel real nervous about Blight/Bob then perhaps a 3rd Hunter is warranted, but I usually find Knight --> Maze and an early Cage to be fine.



If you have questions please don't hesitate to post 'em in this forum.

Best,

-Storm



Edited title for clarity - Prospero

[Stormanimagus]

Ok, I'm going to bump this thread still in its infancy. Also, If anyone here is more tech savvy with this site and can tell me how to put text directly between a pic of a card on the left and a pic of a card on the right I'd appreciate it. I'd like to make my initial post comprehensible and as consolidated as possible (though I realize it is long and thorough . So what do people have to offer in terms of thoughts on the deck?

-Storm

[Meddling Mike]

I really do need to give this a full read through at some point, but from what I noticed:

Karakas doesn't really answer Griselbrand any more than Nature's Claim answers Yawgmoth's Bargain. It gets rid of a 7/7 after your opponent has amassed 7-14 additional cards. I can see scenarios where it could matter, when they have too little life or they're hopelessly locked out of playing additional spells, but it's not like "Problem Solved!" like your original post would lead one to believe. Similarly, playing a 3 mana creature, waiting a turn for it not to be summoning sick and then using it to tutor up your Bujoka Bog seems like it would be too slow against most Dredge decks. I could see it being a nice supplement to a cage on the board where enough time has been bought for this strategy to be effective, but I could see plenty of games where you just die with two KotR staring back at you in your hand.

Mayor of Avabruck is an interesting choice. If we're looking for a Workshops hoser would we be better off with just a Kataki?

[Stormanimagus]

I really do need to give this a full read through at some point, but from what I noticed:

Karakas doesn't really answer Griselbrand any more than Nature's Claim answers Yawgmoth's Bargain. It gets rid of a 7/7 after your opponent has amassed 7-14 additional cards. I can see scenarios where it could matter, when they have too little life or they're hopelessly locked out of playing additional spells, but it's not like "Problem Solved!" like your original post would lead one to believe. Similarly, playing a 3 mana creature, waiting a turn for it not to be summoning sick and then using it to tutor up your Bujoka Bog seems like it would be too slow against most Dredge decks. I could see it being a nice supplement to a cage on the board where enough time has been bought for this strategy to be effective, but I could see plenty of games where you just die with two KotR staring back at you in your hand.

Mayor of Avabruck is an interesting choice. If we're looking for a Workshops hoser would we be better off with just a Kataki?

These are all very valid points and I agree completely. I am sorry if the setup of my post made it seem like Karakas somehow answers Grisel. You're right that it doesn't, but I am often not just relying on the Karakas by itself. I do expect to lead off with at LEAST Thalia/Glowrider and ideally Stony Silence. With a Stony + a Thalia on the board what are they going to do with their 7-14 cards?

Yes, Bog is way too slow to be a primary Dredge hoser. This is why I ultimate cut back from 4 of them to just 2 and went with a much more effective 1-2 punch in Cage and Rest in Peace. Bog is simply there to bat clean-up if/when they remove one of my static permanent answers. I also think it is important to note how effective spheres are at protecting hate.

I have run Kataki in the past, but:

1. Often WE need our moxes more than Shops decks do

2. Most Shop lists can play around Kataki if the pilot is moderately competent.

3. You really want Kataki + Stony in order to abuse Kataki, and I think I'll find myself siding out Stonies against many Shop variants

4. Mayor is much better overall against other decks.

I mean, Mayor just applies incredible pressure to decks when they don't respect it. Like I've definitely had games vs. blue where we fought over some early tempo i.e they bolted my Thalia and my Bob and my second Thalia but they had to burn a tutor to do it. Now we both have like nearly no cards in hand and are living off the top. Oops! Mayor. If left unchecked he wins in like 3-4 turns and that can be fast enough if you keep applying pressure via other hate cards that obviously need to be dealt with by blue (Thalia, Stony, Cage).

While you may side Mayor out against something like Oath I do think he is strong in a large number of matchups where other cards just wouldn't fit the bill.
That said, I'd definitely consider like 2x Kataki in the SB again for shops. It definitely is strong.

-Storm

[A.-1.]

I read the OP in its entirety even though the font/formatting was really off-putting and the opening paragraphs didn't exactly garner my attention. (A good story needs a good lede  .)

I have a few concerns/questions:
You don't address the matchup versus blue control (Landstill, Grixis, Bomberman, etc.) in any depth like you do with Shops, Combo, and Dredge. You say that Cavern trumps counters. That's great, but decks are starting to fight over permanents more and more and less on the stack. Burn in Grixis/Landstill, EE in Landstill/Bomberman, and Waste effects in Landstill help to negate the advantage that Cavern offers.

You also propose Cavern as your answer to CotV at two. Sure, Cavern will get ONE creature through before the Cavern gets Wasted. Unless that one creature is Pridemage, how do you expect to resolve any other creatures at a CMC of two? On a similar note, how do you resolve anything against an early Crucible + Waste, Strip, or Ghost Quarter? I've never played with Cavern, but I've never been impressed when playing against it.

How you do you expect to reliably find -- with no real draw -- and cast -- through Sphere and Waste effects -- Fiend Hunter? Metamorph on a flipped Mayor, Wurmcoil, or Hellkite seem to negate or trump any of your deck's strategies. Postboard, your Shop opponent will be running more of these kind of cards than you're running Fiends and potentially a way to tutor for them in Forgemaster.

I agree with Mike about Karakas. Sure, in Xmas land with a Stony Silence and Thalia already in play, Karakas might get the job done. Even with those three cards in play, combo can still win. And good luck finding the one-of Karakas without the help of Knight before turn three. I think you should be more concerned about not letting Griselbrand into play than dealing with it once it's too late.

In your example versus blue, I don't really understand that line of play by your opponent. Thalia, Stony, and Cage do not obviously need to be dealt with. In that scenario, if they had two Lightning Bolts AND a tutor, that line of play seems like they panicked and Bolted the first three random creatures you played. Mayor and Knight seem like the only creatures a blue deck should be concerned about. Maybe I'm wrong here because I'm a little biased. Most of the blue decks I play run 25-27 mana sources to help deal with all the Shops in my area.

Thank you for sharing your ideas and this interesting deck, and best of luck to you in your career.

[Stormanimagus]

I read the OP in its entirety even though the font/formatting was really off-putting and the opening paragraphs didn't exactly garner my attention. (A good story needs a good lede  .)

I have a few concerns/questions:
You don't address the matchup versus blue control (Landstill, Grixis, Bomberman, etc.) in any depth like you do with Shops, Combo, and Dredge. You say that Cavern trumps counters. That's great, but decks are starting to fight over permanents more and more and less on the stack. Burn in Grixis/Landstill, EE in Landstill/Bomberman, and Waste effects in Landstill help to negate the advantage that Cavern offers.

You also propose Cavern as your answer to CotV at two. Sure, Cavern will get ONE creature through before the Cavern gets Wasted. Unless that one creature is Pridemage, how do you expect to resolve any other creatures at a CMC of two? On a similar note, how do you resolve anything against an early Crucible + Waste, Strip, or Ghost Quarter? I've never played with Cavern, but I've never been impressed when playing against it.

How you do you expect to reliably find -- with no real draw -- and cast -- through Sphere and Waste effects -- Fiend Hunter? Metamorph on a flipped Mayor, Wurmcoil, or Hellkite seem to negate or trump any of your deck's strategies. Postboard, your Shop opponent will be running more of these kind of cards than you're running Fiends and potentially a way to tutor for them in Forgemaster.

I agree with Mike about Karakas. Sure, in Xmas land with a Stony Silence and Thalia already in play, Karakas might get the job done. Even with those three cards in play, combo can still win. And good luck finding the one-of Karakas without the help of Knight before turn three. I think you should be more concerned about not letting Griselbrand into play than dealing with it once it's too late.

In your example versus blue, I don't really understand that line of play by your opponent. Thalia, Stony, and Cage do not obviously need to be dealt with. In that scenario, if they had two Lightning Bolts AND a tutor, that line of play seems like they panicked and Bolted the first three random creatures you played. Mayor and Knight seem like the only creatures a blue deck should be concerned about. Maybe I'm wrong here because I'm a little biased. Most of the blue decks I play run 25-27 mana sources to help deal with all the Shops in my area.

Thank you for sharing your ideas and this interesting deck, and best of luck to you in your career.

I have a lot of modification/ addition to do to the opening post. That is why an analysis of the blue match-up is missing. I simply haven't done it yet haha. If you can help give me advice on formatting that would keep the post looking organized but allow for the correct things to pop out in an organized manner I'd appreciate any input you might have on that.

You make some very good devil's advocate points, but all I can say is my experience tells me otherwise on almost all accounts. This deck is all about the resource grind so for example against shops Fiend Hunter is really just a back-up plan when you are both in topdeck mode. You are often trying to just get it to the point where you and your opponent are both in topdeck mode and then cards like Fiend Hunter become pretty solid as a 2-3 of against shops.

And no draw engine? Umm. . . I run 4 Bob. I run 3 Knight. It's arguable that Knight isn't a draw engine, but it does cycle through your lands at a rapid pace so more top-decks are business. Do we draw as many cards as blue per game? Almost never. This deck wins more like a mana/resource denial shop deck. This deck also the virtual card advantage of Cavern quite well. if you have basically blanked between 6-8 cards in your opponents maindeck that is a good bit of virtual card advantage cause now if they drew a hand with 2 force game 1 they probably just lost cause they don't necessarily have enough business. After game 1 the jig is sort of up and they won't really keep hands like that, but hopefully by that time you are up 1-0.

As to Griselbrand, yes you're right. You don't want to let the Griselbrand into play. All I was trying to point out is that a non-trivial % of the time you can escape a Brand that has hit the battlefield. It is also important to note that if I play Cage and my opponent elects to Oath anyway in the hopes of Burning Wishing for Show and Tell I'll be happy that I have Fiend Hunter in there as it will exile the Brand upon ETB. I realize they can still activate the ability in response but if I have disruption out I can probably win from there. Against this Burning Oath list you seem to be under the impression that I won't RESOLVE my hate? Ummm. . . they don't run Force or Misstep as far as I know in most lists. What exactly am I NOT resolving? And if they leave in their duresses against me I'm happy about that cause they can easily just whiff and then I topdeck a Stony/Cage.

And finding 1-of Karakas? I run 3 Knights. Again, I usually find it if I can stall my opponent even a bit.

I mean, I don't know how to convince you. Combo is gonna get theirs. Shops is gonna get theirs. Blue is going to go "oops I win Time Vault/Key" or "Oops I win turn 1 Jace" (though quick aside, I've beaten that very play with turn 1 Thalia off a cavern). Dredge is gonna get theirs. But guess what. . . so does this deck! That's the beautiful thing. This deck can abuse opening mox, lotus, land hands as well (especially if one of those lands is cavern). Like this happened to me on more than 1 occasion vs. blue. Turn 1 Lotus + Cavern into Thalia (first, and using cavern mana), Bob. Now how is that NOT broken? My opponent now is severely slowed for turn 1 and I have a free +1 card for at LEAST turn 2. So yeah, this deck can "draw broken" in it's own way as well, but that isn't the way it generally plays. This deck is designed to grind. It is about keeping your opponent a day late a dollar short

-Storm

[brokenbacon]

High quality post. Thank you very much, the deck is fantastic. This kind of thing is where TMD belongs, not in heady discussions... oh, if I start flaming I'll never stop.
Anyway, thanks again.

[A.-1.]

I wouldn't worry too much about the formatting. That was just the editor in me nitpicking. If you're that concerned about it, I'd recommend making all of the text uniform; removing most, if not all, of the pictures; and replacing the first two paragraphs with bullet points outlining the deck.

I would agree that Fiend Hunter is fine if you can get to the late game versus a Shop opponent, but it doesn't help you survive the early game. I find it hard to believe that a  sorcery-speed card is enough to answer an early fatty.

I'm sorry but I cannot consider the card draw of Bob and filter of Knight as a legitimate draw engine with no other supplementary cards. That's one of my opinions about this deck that you will not be able to change.

Cavern is virtual card advantage versus blue control if you draw it and if they don't have a Waste effect. The other 60% of the time when Cavern is not in your opener, those counters in blue control work just fine.

Against this Burning Oath list you seem to be under the impression that I won't RESOLVE my hate? Ummm. . . they don't run Force or Misstep as far as I know in most lists. What exactly am I NOT resolving? And if they leave in their duresses against me I'm happy about that cause they can easily just whiff and then I topdeck a Stony/Cage.

I don't know how you inferred from my post that I was under the impression your hate would not resolve. You'll be able to resolve whatever you want against many Burning Tendrils lists. I'm implying that you might not get more than one turn to resolve a piece of hate, especially on the draw. Game one, or postboard if they left in Duress, your opponent could whiff. I'll give you that, but I'm curious though as to what type of hand you're keeping against Burning Tendrils that doesn't have either of your two strongest cards (SS and Cage). And then you just topdeck a SS or Cage? Really? You have to admit that's real flimsy logic. We can't all just topdeck exactly what we need after an opponent casts Duress.

I'm well aware that GWb Fish was designed to be a grindy deck and not broken. I've played my fair share of games versus Guli. I just very much enjoy playing devil's advocate and forcing people to think critically about their deck/card choices.

[Stormanimagus]

Ok. point by point.

I would agree that Fiend Hunter is fine if you can get to the late game versus a Shop opponent, but it doesn't help you survive the early game. I find it hard to believe that a   sorcery-speed card is enough to answer an early fatty.

Umm. . . This is why you run stuff like Wastes, Accel and Prides. Don't forget also that Thalia + Mayor = a 3/2 first strike and that will keep 2 Golems at bay. I agree that Shop lists running Metalworker can be just too fast to deal with, but I'll take my chances with those. I'm confident I can survive most games otherwise until Fiend Hunter time (should I draw it of course).

added note: I run all moxen available (including petal). I think this build choice alone shows that I really do respect shops. I know I can just get flat out pounded by cards like Wurmcoil or Hellkite, but my strategy is about grinding my shop opponent on resources and hopefully having my 1-for-1 type card available (i.e Hunter or Pride) should my shop opponent break the lock. You are under the assumption that I frequently get resource locked vs. shops. Maybe I'm just extremely lucky, but this rarely happens. I think it is mainly because my deck is more than half mana and much of it is accel. The real fear against shops is the old "bigger boat" problem. If they have a Wurmcoil in play you better just pray for a miracle. Fiend Hunter is the miracle card in my view. It is almost never designed to nab a Lodestone early in the game. taking down lodestone is a 3/2 Thalia or a 3/3 wolf's job. I think the big weakness this deck has to shops is the card Metalworker. A steady stream of threats I can usually deal with. A golem AND 6-drop on turn 2? That is going to cause serious issue for this deck and many others. Stony is definitely a viable answer, but it's true that I'd feel more comfortable if I had some Phyrexian Revokers in here as well. I just don't think Workers are that popular right now so I'm not metagaming for them.

I'm sorry but I cannot consider the card draw of Bob and filter of Knight as a legitimate draw engine with no other supplementary cards. That's one of my opinions about this deck that you will not be able to change.

Well whether or not it is an opinion of yours to change it is a draw engine so you're wrong. If bob is a draw engine in blue it is a draw engine here as well. We can debate Knight, but bob is unequivocally a draw engine.

Cavern is virtual card advantage versus blue control if you draw it and if they don't have a Waste effect. The other 60% of the time when Cavern is not in your opener, those counters in blue control work just fine.

And tell me. Just how many Jace-Blue lists run a single wasteland? I'd be willing to bet that very few lists that have made it to a final table at an event have run even 1. Show me the data of anything approaching 20% of Jace-Blue lists running 1 waste and I'll express worry. Also, there are the turn 1/2's where they just don't have the force. Yeah, that happens.

[A.-1.]

How many Jace-Blue lists run Wasteland? ALL of the Landstill builds I've ever seen make top 8.

I'm sorry if you think my opinion is wrong. I don't believe Bob alone is a draw engine in Grixis Control either. Bob, in combination with the other filter/draw, is a consistent draw engine. I don't think you can jam four Bob into a Fish deck with nothing else and say it has a draw engine.

It doesn't look like I can get you to change your mind on Fiend Hunter against a deck running three to four Metamorphs. But I guess if you're consistently surviving the early game versus Shops, then it doesn't really matter what you play in that slot.

[Stormanimagus]

How many Jace-Blue lists run Wasteland? ALL of the Landstill builds I've ever seen make top 8.

I'm sorry if you think my opinion is wrong. I don't believe Bob alone is a draw engine in Grixis Control either. Bob, in combination with the other filter/draw, is a consistent draw engine. I don't think you can jam four Bob into a Fish deck with nothing else and say it has a draw engine.

It doesn't look like I can get you to change your mind on Fiend Hunter against a deck running three to four Metamorphs. But I guess if you're consistently surviving the early game versus Shops, then it doesn't really matter what you play in that slot.

I don't consider Landstill the same animal at all and wasn't implying that it doesn't run wasteland. Against that deck I just sandbag a cavern in hand and wait til I can cast a 4/4 knight and then clean up from there. I also have wastes of my own to protect my caverns. Landstill is actually one of my best matchups because they apply like 0 pressure and starting with game 2 I have 8 waste effects.

-Storm

Added note: I want you to know A-1 that I appreciate you playing devil's advocate. Any new deck idea needs this sort of harsh skepticism. However, I think your thorough critiques at least imply that you think this deck has some potential intrigue. Thanks for sparking conversation!

[A.-1.]

I haven't played regularly on Cockatrice in several months. The last time I did though, Guli had convinced me that his build of GWb Fish was a true contender in the metagame of the time. Unfortunately, I never had the cards to test his deck in a live tournament. I believe this deck also has potential.

[serracollector]

Me and Guli tested this a alot, and I have to agree that IMO 4 bobs was not enough draw.  With a turn 1-2 bob, it wasn't hard to fall behind despite spheres/disruption.  A single acall/brainstorm/jace can really swing the game in their favor.

This is why I added Blue for these cards specifically:
Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
4 x Shardless Agent
3-4 Phantasmal Image

Shardless agent is just amazing for several reasons:
Its 2 threats in 1.
You don't have to cast the cascaded spell, for example a 2nd thalia, or a stony silence when your sitting on moxen and opp isn't.
Its an artifact and creature so it gets under Lodestone and Thorn.
Its an artifact so it can be cast under Ethersworn Cannonist (another human...which is missing from your 75 for some reason...), and you still get the Cascaded spell since its (assumed) your first non-artifact spell for the turn.
Can help to flip Mayor back into its base, which sometimes is needed. (already have an army of Humans for example and don't need the tokens so the +1/+1 is better)

Phantasmal image is great in that it can copy Knight's, Bobs, and Glowriders, proving either more CA, more FAT, or more Sphere's.
Anything they would use to kill Image would more than likely kill anything else you have anyways, so its a null point (except in rare scenerios, like copying an artifact creature and they Voltaic Key it)
Its an out to Blightsteel and Goyf's two of this decks obv biggest banes.
Can also copy those Wurmcoils/Steel Hellkites you so dread.

Also splashing blue allows you to SB Meddling Mage.  A very underestimated card in this meta of 4 of's (gush, jace, oath, burning wish, dark ritual, bolt, goyf, pyroclasm just to name a few)

Just wondering but why do you not have either True Believer or Ethersworn Cannonist in your 75?  Both are amazing vs Storm/Oath, and Ethersworn GUARANTEES that Mayor never flips back, unless they are holding moxen back as you said, which if they are, they are probably playing wrong vs your mana denial anyways.  Not to mention the synergy of Ethersworn and Shardless Agent.  The restriction of Ethersworn doesn't necessarily hurt you either, as you stated earlier its not always smart to overcommit.

Personally speaking I think True Believer, Meddling Mage, and Phantasmal Image are better all around than Fiend, cost less, and have way more options.

Whatever route you choose to take, good luck with it, it is a very powerful and strong deck.

And Also for cutsies:
+ +

FTW.  GL.

[Guli]

Glad to see my innovations/creations are being discussed. I want to thank Storm for writing this nice 'primer'. It really explains things well.

Knight is an interesting touch to the shell. Good luck with it.

I will be back in February. I have caught eye on a couple interesting spoilers in the upcoming set. I will be testing those in Human Caverns archetype. One of the most important characteristics of this archetype is that is is fun and gives the designer the room to go his own route within the powerful shell of Noble, Bob, Thalia and Mayor.

[Stormanimagus]

Updated the initial post to include an analysis of Grixis Jace. I also have a long aside on the "draw engine" debate. I hope these help. I think the match-up analysis of Grixis Jace is going to need a lot of tuning over time, cause I simply don't get to test against it enough to have a sufficient sample size (when I say "it" I don't just mean the deck itself, but a competent playing piloting it).

I would like to admit one sort of embarrassing thing. Not particularly embarrassing for me, but it does skew results. I don't know how many times I've cast a human with Cavern of Souls where my blue opponent has Forced anyway. Under the rules they can still do this and it simply doesn't counter the spell. I have let it happen (that is simply the competitor in me) and reaped the benefits of the loss of card advantage it produced. I know I SHOULD expect good players not to make this sort of bonehead move, but surprisingly, I've seen some good players do it as well. Blue players simply are taken off-guard sometimes by the fact that their turn 0 Force of Will is useless and they have an automatic reaction that goes like this:

"Turn 1 card that stops me from winning? Force of Will."

I'm not super proud of games I've won this way, but it is an important wrinkle to take note of for players bringing this deck to a tournament. I think you need only declare you are tapping Caverns for colored mana in a real tournament and not anything more. If your opponent Forces you can just ask them "pitching?" and if they do that part I don't think any Judge would allow them to take it back.

-Storm

[Metman]

Storm, I'm glad you decided to post this list and spurred discussion. I think I know why you had originally withheld it, and I commend you for taking the leap.

Did you test Elvish Spirit Guide in place of Moxes? On the surface it seems to not conflict with your Stony Silences and gets under Spheres like an already resolved Mox. I can see the trade offs obviously, is it something you considered?

Deathrite Shaman vs. Noble Heirarch? Same thing here, I can see the pros and cons to both; did you test both?

If Karakas is good, or at least decent as a tool in battling Oath creatures, why wouldn't Maze of Ith? I see you were siding it out in that matchup. The Lifelink on Grislebrand is significant when you play aggro. Perhaps I'm missing something though.

Finally, I like the change in font. The format I'm indifferent to. Sometimes I get bored with TMD print.

[Stormanimagus]

Storm, I'm glad you decided to post this list and spurred discussion. I think I know why you had originally withheld it, and I commend you for taking the leap.

Did you test Elvish Spirit Guide in place of Moxes? On the surface it seems to not conflict with your Stony Silences and gets under Spheres like an already resolved Mox. I can see the trade offs obviously, is it something you considered?

Deathrite Shaman vs. Noble Heirarch? Same thing here, I can see the pros and cons to both; did you test both?

If Karakas is good, or at least decent as a tool in battling Oath creatures, why wouldn't Maze of Ith? I see you we're siding it out in that matchup. The Lifelink on Grislebrand is significant when you play aggro. Perhaps I'm missing something though.

Finally, I like the change in font. The format I'm indifferent to. Sometimes I get bored with TMD print.

Guide vs. Moxes. Very simple. Guides are a one-shot. Moxes are not. I don't like going in on 1-2 guides a game only to have the resources spent wrecked by a removal spell. Also, The only guide I'd want to run is the green one. I like the flexibility of petal at being able to be any color.

Shaman isn't a Human, and you need to burn potentially your own gy lands to add mana with it. If you note, Knight of the Reliquary wants lands in my yard. Sometimes Shaman and Knight work against each-other in this regard. Also I often only need G or W from Noble. Karakas is good because it bounces Brand. Sure they can pay life up front, but after that initial turn of branding they can't. If I have them somewhat locked down at that point I can probably swing for the win pretty soon. If I only have maze out I can't swing at all because they have a 7/7 lifelink to block with and gain life. So against some Oath variants the maze is better, but against Emrakul and Grisel karakas is definitely superior. It bounces the threat. Maze leaves it in play as a blocker. Maze also does nothing to stop annihilator.

-Storm

[Metman]

I wasn't suggesting SSG, only ESG. I see the reasoning you suggest I was curious if you had tested it. In playing aggro/control lists with Null Rod effects I have been confronted with situations where I need to resolve Null Rod to keep up the tempo but look down to see a basic Plains and two Moxes. Yikes! I know it's a paradox that this type of deck creates for itself and one of the reasons the deck is difficult to play.

Also, I wasn't suggesting Maze over Karakas, I was thinking in addition to. If there isn't anything better to side out, that's reasonable.

[bax]

Storm is right in saying Moxes> ESG. For the simple reason he runs BoB in this deck and exposing himself to reveal an ESG is too poor compared to the mana fixing ability and zer damage you get from Moxes.

A lot of the people that criticize GWxx variants, do that because they have never played one. In reality it is a very strong archetype (if you need datas to prove it from Real Life tournaments, just ask i would be happy to provide them).

[Stormanimagus]

I want to be absolutely clear that this deck is not simply GWx hate bears. That is a very different deck with very different card choices and a different play style. This deck is aggressive and seeks to gain as much virtual CA as possible.

-Storm

[bax]

Storm whatever you like it or not. It is simply the same archetype.
Just like Kuldhota, Stax, etc. etc. are all Workshop Deck archetypes this is a GWxx deck archetype. Different deck, same archetype.

[StanleyAugust]

Almost all of your cards are either G, W og G/W bears. Only mana, Stony, Cage and Confidant isn't so of course it is GWx bears. Also, I fail to see how this plays much different to other GWx Bears variants or Meandeck Beats etc.

It looks like a very interesting build though, so thumbs up!

[Guli]

Cavern Humans is a new archetype because Cavern of Souls and Mayor are not cards used by GWx beats. Also, the version of Storm uses a couple of uncharacteristic cards that are not in my original list were all this started a while ago. With Pridemage and KOTR I can understand why bax thinks it leans more towards GWx beats, and I have to agree, it does look more of a hybrid between two archetypes indeed.  A big difference is also the usage of almost all Humans in Human Caverns with maybe 6-7 slots non human creatures.

Adding pridemage and knight into the Human shell is not necessarily the best route, but it is an interesting one nevertheless. I personally don't feel like Pridemage belongs. And I think Knight is really demanding. Yes it finds Cavern and does cute things at the 3cc curve, but it also NEEDS those forests and plains to sacrifice. Usually this is not a problem I guess?? (question to Storm) But it does limit the color choices. Hence, again, leaning a bit more to GWb Beats.

[serracollector]

Knight is a human guli, and the biggest one you can add for 3 or less mana, pretty sure.  Seems like not just a good addition, but an obv one for things like goyf and lodestones and anything 3/3 or bigger.

[Blue Lotus]

This deck is aggressive and seeks to gain as much virtual CA as possible.

-Storm

how is that vastly different from any other deck with null rod?

[brianpk80]

The problem with Kataki is that he (she/it?) is not Human.  Not all creatures used must be Human, but after a certain threshold is reached, the restriction on the mana base can be problematic.  I prefer the variation serra mentioned, with blue for Shardless Agent, Meddling Mage, and Grand Arbiter Augustin IV. 

[Guli]

Knight is a human guli, and the biggest one you can add for 3 or less mana, pretty sure.  Seems like not just a good addition, but an obv one for things like goyf and lodestones and anything 3/3 or bigger.

Knight is in a way like Magus of the Moon. It does not allow itself to be just thrown in a deck. You need to make adjustments, use slots for it.
The card Human Caverns uses to beat Tarmogoyf and Lodestone Golem is wastelands + noble to build up mana advantage, Dark Confidant for card advantage and then use Mayor to control the board. Other tools are Jitte, Stun Sniper, ...

I can see Knight most useful against control decks or tempo decks that only run bounce or burn as removal. With Caverns around that Knight can cause problems for them. But you can still be outplayed with tempo plays. Jace, Bobs, Snaps, etc...

I also want to note that in a Cavern list, given you are on a tribe, you do not want non humans with hard mana costs like pridemage. I think not running Revokers in a deck with Thalia, Caverns, Noble, Wastelands is a mistake. Revoker is a must.

But again, I think this mana base, with knight it has to be a bit more GW, i feel pridemage could work out.


Storm went offline on cockatrice before I could reply to his question about Revoker. So why is  Revoker a must?

1. easy to cast   
2. thalia, unlike lodestone, also hits opponents moxes (so revoker is even stronger with thalia than it is with golem)   
3. generally it doesn't hose your own moxes like null rod
4. extremely versatile

[serracollector]

I totally agree on revoker over Pridemage.  The only time PM is better is vs Oath, and only if your not SB meddling mage or true believer (both humans..)

Also blue totally allows you to run Rayne, Academy Chancellor which can become a massive pain for 4 bolt/4 stp.dec.

Thanks Brian, I totally think blue is a must have for this deck.

[StanleyAugust]

Cavern Humans is a new archetype because Cavern of Souls and Mayor are not cards used by GWx beats.

Cavern is, Mayor is not. The core of your build is Confidant, Thalia and Hierarch combined with mana denial like Stony and Strip  effects. That's the same as a traditional GWx build.
Adding one new card, Mayor, to a shell isn't enough to call it a new archetype. When I play GWb and add Aven Mindcensor and name "Wizard" with Cavern, it's not a new archetype either.

[serracollector]

For all intents and purposes you might as well call this MUD.

Thalia = Lodestone
Bob = Metalworker
Mayor = Wire/Stack
Knight = Kuldotha

all the same