Human Ingenuity

[Guli]

Based on testing and results, I can acknowledge that it is safe to play 2 creature types with a specific mana base and to run humans that share the splash creature type.

We tried Burning-Tree Shaman as the non human, in this case Shaman, and we added some Gorilla Shaman too.

I will try to add in the Emisary.

[serracollector]

Well this isnt the full list ofc but it goes along the lines of:

4 x Preist of Gix (the black ritual human)
4 x Preist of Ubrask (the red ritual human)
4 x Manamorphose
4 x Bloodbraid Elf (my 1 non human)
4 x Bob
4 x Mayor
4 x Burning Human (adds GR when etb)
4 x Unearth (cast on any human in the grave you GAIN MANA)
4 x Soulbound Hasty Human (1R I beleive is cost, 99% of the time its free off another human)
4 x Skullclamp
1 x Yawg Will
1 x Tendrils

Lands/on color moxen

Either you drop a fast hasty army asap, and swing ftw, or you go into clamp mana making mode with Unearths, and tendrils for the win.  Its very fun.  Good luck trying it.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Would call of nature (or whatever the G draw a card when you cast a critter card is called) just be better than some number of clamps/manamorphose?  You basically pay 1 mana and chain to draw the bulk of your deck as opposed to repeatedly paying 1 to equip clamp.

[serracollector]

If it was pure combo sure, but its not.  Most games I have played with it, you do something like drop 2-3 humans turn 1, sometimes with haste due to soulbound, swing for 4-6, turn 2 drop mayor, or clamp, and clamp into a mayor, swing for 10+, then when your opponent tries to stop your 3-4 3/2's, you either cast a BB elf and swing for the win anyways, or you go into a small clamp/unearth combo and tendrils for the final 6-10 damage.  Its most definitely not made to just Tendrils ftw.  Its aggro.

[Guli]

I like your creative approach Serra. What I would like to see is a working and tuned lists at some point so we can actually test and discuss it/comment on it.


I tried out the Emissary in the standard mayor fish versions and It was not easy to make it work. I also believe that there is still the issue of removal and being outplayed by sheer CA.

A second concern is life. I believe Lifelink, gaining life, is a good thing if you can close down the combo avenues of the opponent. To get more value out of the high creature count, I think Soulbond is an interesting mechanic. Mother of Runes, Tandem Lookout and Nearheath Pilgrim are good cards in Human Fish. I still believe that card draw is the best way to fight removal. Even if they are using mass removal, cards that 2 vs 1 you, or single spot removal, the fact that you get a card or two from Dark Confident or Tandem Lookout puts you in a position were you can play a slower and steady game. There are a lot of decks out there that have only Tinker/BSC or TV/Key as the only real win condition. You aren't going to win with Jace, Snapcaster and removal if you are fighting a deck with massive amount of bears that draws cards with Bobs and Tandem and disrupts you with Thalia, Wastelands, Protection, Artifact removal. That would be a clear out aggro war that the aggro deck will eventually win. Control needs that 1 big burst of a card that blows the aggro out of the window. For a long time now, I have been looking at Devout Chaplain, there has to be a way to make that card work. The creature count is high enough, all humans with maybe 1 exception. There is Noble to accelerate into the card. Caverns to protect it versus counter spells. The card should be in the Human deck, it hits nearly every match up. But there is also Fiend Hunter that proves to be good after your initial moxes into Thalia, Bob and Mayor. It offers tempo and removal in one go.

2 Deathrite Shaman is a card I really starting seeing as the answer against decks that use Crucible and try to outplay you like that. I devided it into 2 MD and 1 SB because my deck has already some other tools versus Crucible decks (landstill variations, workshop variations). This is not a new tech, we talked about it before in this thread.

4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
3 Tarnished Citadel
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

3 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant
2 Nearheath Pilgrim
1 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Tandem Lookout
3 Devout Chaplain
2 Fiend Hunter

2 Stony Silence
1 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 3 War Priest of Thune
SB: 2 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Gremlin Mine

Oath: 7 clear SB slots, but you can always bring RIP and an extra stony too.
Dredge: 6 hard SB slots, but Dr. Shaman comes in too. You can also consider a couple of War Priests of you expect Leylines.
Workshop and Landstill: 5 solid cards (Shaman, Mines, Pridemage), while you can bring in a RIP and a Stony depending on the builds.

The SB is mainly for dredge, oath and gives some utility versus Crucible decks. However, you also bring cage and rip in versus combo decks. You up the count of Stony Silence to 3 if you believe you are facing decks that rely on their acceleration to make their deck work. I am think about decks with multiple Voltaic Key, Chrome mox, Mox Opal, Metalworker, AC/Intution based blue control that drop a lot of acceleration and draw a lot of cards, ... I put 2 in maindeck, it is a solid card to have in hand against decks that don't go crazy on mox play, but use Explosives for example as removal. Remember that having Stony does limit our own options as well (moxes, factories). I only see 4 necessary against decks that truly die to the card, especially with a Thalia around.

Mother of Runes will act as a recurring Mental Misstep in the context of Lightning Bolt and STP. I figured, I don't really need to counter anything if I can keep my Thalia, Bob and Mayor alive. MOR is a real pain in the ass if it gets into play turn 1 with Cavern of Souls and they either have to use up their removal for it, or if they don't have removal, MOR will be disruption on their disruption. But that is not the only reason I think MOR gets MD consideration. The combat tricks she offers do make sense with Tandem Lookout in the deck. Lastly, you need some 1 drops to make Devout Chaplain work. Just like Mental Misstep, MOR is a dead card against Workshop, BUT at least it powers up Devout Chaplain, making it an actual important card in that sense.

The thing I don't like in this version, is that it only has 4 Thalia and 2 Stony MD that really puts pressure (well wastelands too I guess) when we speak about 'broken vintage decks'. However, I believe having a Thalia in play with Stony backup, is all you need right now. You play 4 Thalia because it dies, if it doesn't die, it is doing its job. You have the option to answer Tinker and moxes, there is 8 cards in the deck that will directly provide you with more cards. Were is the gaddock? Were is the Canonist? These questions do wander in my mind, but I just don't see the need for it. Note that there is 1 Phyrexian Revoker in the deck. Many times Thalia + Revoker + Wasteland sets the opponents deck so much behind, the game is virtually over. It still looks low on disruption, at least in the classical sense. Disruption is not just stopping their mana, as I explained above, I believe disrupting the removal is also important. This deck does this with MOR, Bobs, Thalia and Tandem Lookout. Even if you net 1 extra card with a Bob or Tandem Lookout, it usually changes the course of the game. That one extra card, just made that Fire/Ice a 2 vs 2 and this is crucial. Or that MOR, tapping to counter that BOLT, and then they bring in Snapcaster to Bolt again. Usually that is a 2 vs 1 too, well not in this case.

My Regards,
Guli

[serracollector]

Critters x 22
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Mayor of Avabruck
4 x Burning-Tree Emissary
3 x Priest of Gix
3 x Priest of Urabrask
4 x Lightning Mauler

Draw x 8
4 x Skullclamp
4 x Manamorphose

Broken Stuff x 4
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will
Tendrils of Agony

Recursion x 4
4 x Unearth

Mana x 20
3 x On color Moxen
Black Lotus
Mana Crypt
Lotus Petal
4 x Cavern of Souls
4 x City of Brass
4 x Gemstone Mine
2 x Any color land of choice

2 open slots?

Anyways, this is what I am testing as the shell.  Most games are honestly, drop human into human into human.  Getting 3 or more on turn 1-2 is not uncommon, and most times with haste.  Easily a turn 3-4 win, even if they kill one or 2, and most of the time uncounterable.  Most of the time if I tendrils, its for like 6-8, and is enough to win.  Its more the backup plan if your opponent stabalizes versus your 3/3 army of humans.  With lotus obv this deck can get very ridic hands, doing something like dropping 2 preists, bob, tree, and mayor, and next turn swinging for 16+ damage and drawing an extra card off bob.  Even something as simple as turn 1 preist into bob, then turn 2 tree into mayor, swing for 6, next turn for 10+ is a very fast clock. Or red preist into trees into mayor, etc etc. Anyways, this is my shell, make changes as you wish ofc, and test it out.  Its fast, fun, and well mainly fun

[tito del monte]

Now that is a fun looking list Serracollector! Shades of Elves! to it (and dare I say Kobald-Clamp?) with both combo and aggro plans. Have you considered either Imperial Recruiter or Mirror Entity for your remaining slots? The former can fetch you Mayor, the second plays nice with Priest mana.

[Wagner]

I would definitively play the 2 off color moxen in this since a lot of your guys are 2 drops. It allows you to cast Confidant, Mayor and Manamorphose easier on turn 1, and can even drop a Clamp a bit earlier.
That said, you already run only rainbow lands, I'm not sure manamorphose is really needed there. Sure it combos with Y. Will, but other than that, it's not that impressive.

[Stormanimagus]

The main issue I see with this list is just broken.dec. Like, if they know you are on this deck they will just aggressively go for Time Vault/Key or Tinker-Bot and ruin your day. I could see this deck giving Landstill fits though with all the haste. Cool deck.

-Storm

[serracollector]

Thanks guys, yea its tons of fun.  Manamorphose was pretty much just the best filter I could find.  Essentially costing nothing to draw another 2/1 hasty, or mayor, or bob. Think of manamorphose like a cascade effect in the deck on top of the Bloodbraid elves....which reminds me, the 2-3 slots I was missing is supposed to be 3 bloodbraid elves. Yes broken.dec can get the tinker, but after a fetch, and say vampiric tutor to get tinker, and you've done 4-6 already, you can outrace turn 2-3 tinker.  I guess I could replace the 4 manamorphose with the 2 off color moxen, a 4th bloodbraid elf, and a land.

[Guli]

For those who missed it,

Brian was second in Bloomsburg, another top 8 performance.

Here is the list:

Second – Brian Kelly
“Mayor Fish”
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Meddling Mage
3 Fiend Hunter
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Devout Witness
3 Mental Misstep
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Stony Silence
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Batterskull
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
1 March Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
2 Mishra’s Factory
1 Strip Mine
2 Plains

SB:
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
2 True Believer
2 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mishra’s Factory
1 Wasteland

[brianpk80]

Thank you.  Here's the fixed version of how it should look:

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Meddling Mage
3 Fiend Hunter
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Devout Witness
3 Mental Misstep
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Stony Silence
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Batterskull
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
2 Mishra’s Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Plains

SB:
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 True Believer
2 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mishra’s Factory
1 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog

It's mostly the same as last month but this time I put Devout Witness in a maindeck meta slot instead of Ethersworn Canonist and ran 2 Stony Silence maindeck + 1 Cage instead of 3 Silence.  I put the 3rd Silence in the sideboard.  I ran an extra Factory maindeck this time also. 

The Stoneforge Mystic is great and sometimes even drawing Batterskull itself is fine.  I would consider running 2 Stoneforges; the concern I have is that if you draw the Bskull, Mystic is a dead draw and after the first Mystic, a second one would be a dead draw without saddling the deck up with another equipment that would be dyssynergic with Stony Silence and to a lesser extent, Bob, if it's another high CC Equip like a second Batterskull.  I may test out 2 cause I like the SfM->Batterskull play a lot, but it running a singleton SfM has worked out fine so far. 

[Guli]

The thing with Batterskull is that I believe it is a slot that is used to control the board against decks like Workshop and other creature decks. It also has an inbound card advantage and is a natural answer against slow control decks. The question I ask is if we need those 2 slots to strengthen these match ups and is SFM really the most effective way to do this in this specific archetype. Mayor is already a very good answer, it is in this deck a better Tarmogoyf. In fact, I was wondering the other day, just take a classical Noble Fish deck and just replace the Tarmogoyf with Mayor and see how it goes.

Also, if I would implement SFM in the Human Mayor core we have all been testing and tuning, I would use 4x of them and try to really work them in, adjusting the deck a little.

What I would like to hear is how the deck performed, what cards caused problems, which are the learning points, do you have any conclusions, notes,   surely there must be room to improve this wonderful new archetype and you had first hand experience in a tournament, tell us.


A bit on the side,
I created 7 subversions with each a splash of a second creature type or some mechanic (like soulbond).
- A version with Edric without counters
- A version with Tandem and other Soulbond humans with counters
- Shamans featuring Burning-Tree Shaman
- Wizards featuring Qasali Pridemage
- Advisors with Gaddock
- A Cleric version with Geist
- A Rogue version with Thada, Edric and counter magic

This just shows how diverse and stretchable this archetype can be. But the cards holding it all together are the 4 humans, Noble, Bob, Thalia and Mayor. They are a strong skeleton crew.

Some impressions:
- Edric is such a beast of a card, especially when you generate the tempo early on with Thalia and Wastelands. There is no way you are losing once you hit them with bears and Edric is triggering.

- Thada is extremely strong and fits so well in the deck because it is a direct answer to Crucible decks because it gets the card. Thada wins every time it resolves and is unchecked against blue.broken. And it wins quickly, getting the TV combo in 2 turns or exiling the Tinker bot. I also stole some revokers once and Black lotus is a very good target making it a super accelerator.

- Gaddock seems to be less optimal than Thalia. It is always strong to have a Gaddock in play, this is true, but it is not always strong to have Gaddock in the deck or in your hand. On paper it answers many things, and sometimes they do matter, but I have a feeling it is acting more of a soft answer against the decks it should be dead against. Stopping dredge combo, stopping Chalice and Smokestack, etc. The idea with Teeg is that it stops things like Gush, the storm kill, in short, big bombs. While it does this, the meta doesn't seem that heavy on those cards right now. Jace is already no concern to this deck if you play it right. There are simply too many creatures around, and if you fail to put some in play, Jace is really win more for them anyway. I tried out Gaddock to help out Thalia in the 'hate bear' department. But I believe a card like Canonist would be a better support card to really hate out the modern combo decks. Canonist is a human too, and it works pretty nicely with the Mayor.

The version with wizards and Pridemage is the one that I like most. Pridemage is a direct answer to Crucible and Workshop in general. It hits blue win cons, and gives the deck 8 exalted + Mayor bonus, increasing the clock immensely. With Pridemage you are leaning a bit more towards the classical Noble Fish variations, because you probably want to run some Meddling Mage too once you go wizards with humans.

The Clerics are loaded, the most rich card pool. You can go in a lot of directions here. Here is a list a cockatrice buddy has been testing (he took up the Cleric version and is testing it)

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Fiend Hunter
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stony Silence

1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride

4 Savannah
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

SB: 2 War Priest of Thune
SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 4 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Ghost Quarter
SB: 1 Fiend Hunter

As you can see he went for Relic-Warders and even splashed some Kataki. He said he was in a Workshop heavy meta so that makes sense.

It is safe to say that this Mayor Fish pillar with Cavern of Souls has a lot of potential and is not 'there yet'.


I saw an interesting spoiler today:


I like it. It says 'may' and this is good. It can open up some options with other cards with a relevant ETB ability (Snapcaster, Fiend Hunter, Meddling Mage, Revoker, Relic-Warder, SFM,...) It can also save a bear in response to some removal or bounce back bob when you have low life.

[brianpk80]

I don't think Mayor of Avabruck would reach its full potential just being tossed into a standard Noble Fish deck because the bonus it gives to other Humans the turn it comes into play is one of its biggest draws and Noble Fish usually lacks Cavern.  It would still be good in the Shop/Dredge match where it more often converts into Howlpack but I've had a lot of situations v. blue decks in small creature stalemates (Bob, Factory, Snapcaster, Jace) where the Mayor just ends the game instantly because the other Fish become 3/x and Fiend Hunters 2/4.  

I'm hesitant to play a full Stoneforge Mystic suite both because deck space is tight and because I hate drawing Sword of Fire and Ice and Umezawa's Jitte early on.  I think to run those cards, you start wanting things like Sol Ring and Mana Crypt and then for all the obvious reasons you can't maindeck Stony Silence.  I also don't like drawing a second Stoneforge Mystic.  Running 1 and 1 Batterskull has worked out so far to keep those issues minimized.  If one did want to go for full SfM and no Null Rod effects main, that opens up the possibility of running Engineered Explosives and/or Trinket Mage.  I was experimenting with that last week but in the end stuck with the original plan.  If adding equipment, Silver-Inlaid Dagger and Mask of Memory are worth considering.    

Your comparison of Mayor of Avabruck to Tarmogoyf is on point.  They're playing the same role but differently.  All of the Fish creatures disrupt or generate card & mana advantage except for Tarmogoyf and Mayor.  They're pure beats.  Mayor is an upgrade to Tarmogoyf in this shell because it's not graveyard dependent, its bonus ability is hasted (applies the turn it comes into play), it's uncounterable w. Cavern, and it offsets the annoyance of silver bullet Tangle Wire by generating Wolf tokens.

Gaddock is at a low point for now since Gush is not rampant and Cavern already helps break through FoW.  I agree that Ethersworn is better especially with its casting cost and creature subtype.  It also shuts down Snapcaster Mages.  One thing to watch out for though is that with Ethersworn and Revoker, you're sometimes giving your opponent an outlet for a Nature's Claim or Ancient Grudge that is otherwise dead in hand.  

It is safe to say that this Mayor Fish pillar with Cavern of Souls has a lot of potential and is not 'there yet'.

There's always room for improvement and variations but it's as there as anything else.  I wouldn't say it's a new pillar per se just a more of a modern iteration of Fish.  

Edric and Thada are good cards but being non-Human is a red-flag.  If the benefits are worth it, they can be run, but the tradeoff is there will be times where they can't be played because you're missing 1 color and times where you burn a Cavern on them and then either can't play certain Humans or can play them but they end up countered.  

It will be interesting to see what sort of cards Dragon's Maze contains.  I did see the Deputy and referenced you and Storm in the Strategy Discussion section for new card discussions.  I suppose the Deputy is also very good with Shardless Agent.  I'm looking forward to seeing the spoiler for the Azorius Guild Champion.  Thanks for the congrats and discussion.  

[Guli]

There is no other tribe that gets enabled by Cavern in the same fashion and power level the human core gets boosted. Cavern is in my eyes a pillar card, spawning a new archetype. Fish is different, GW beats is different and here is the major reason why:

- Fish or GW are usually, if not always, using basic lands because they try to have stable mana bases and stick to 2 colors (and maybe, just maybe push it to 3)
-> Human Cavern archetype is designed in such a way that it has a stable mana base by using rainbow lands and having a core that is inherently strong against wasteland strategies (but Crucible is still a threat obviously). It is actually how I started the idea, concretely I mean by this: whether it is thalia, bob, mayor or noble, you cast on turn 1, they can not afford to just wasteland and pass the turn. I know you have a basic land in your list above, but that is entirely your own choice, I don't think it is necessary or optimal to do that.

- There are no other decks that can afford to play, or want to play, this much creatures in the deck and still be successful. These sheer numbers change the way mach ups work out. If say, you are playing Workshop and you are facing GW or URG Delver and playing the match out and after that you have to face Human Caverns, the match up will be totally different, if you do not threat it differently you will simply lose the game.

- The difference of 'Counter Cat strategies versus Pure Beatdown strategies'. The lack of counters is one of the reasons why the match up play out differently. If beating down, hence using the combat phase to kill an opponent or win the game, is considered Fish, then blue is also Fish now, because they also use Snapcaster, Bobs, Mishra's factory, Tinker to win games.

- None of the RUG or GW 'fish' decks have Dark Confidant. I think Human Caverns is a very controlling deck. Building up mana advantage, cutting of counter spells with caverns, using a sphere to counter their game flow but not entirely go 'prison' them, drawing cards, playing removal, Taking over the board with Mayor to keep their bears at bay. Fish decks do some of these things but not all and have their own way of generating tempo, just like other archetypes generate tempo in their own way.

[StanleyAugust]

These 'Human Fish' decks are basically just hybrids of GW or Meandeck Beats. No need to artificially create a new archetype for them.

Congratulations on your great results recently, Brian!

[Guli]

These 'Human Fish' decks are basically just hybrids of GW or Meandeck Beats. No need to artificially create a new archetype for them.

And why do you think this is the case?

I am telling you, the guy who put in a considerable amount of time and effort in designing and playing all of these 'fishy' and 'gw' decks, there are key differences. There is no need to create any archetypes at all in this game. We create them to get a better understanding of how decks work. What the differences are and get a better understanding on the match ups etc. I would like to avoid that people think this is another fish deck or gw deck, take it to a tourney, play it out like a fish or gw deck and then have bad results.

Don't just post random things to get on top, it doesn't help out.

[Stormanimagus]

Guli is 100% correct.

The real difference between this and fish is in how the two decks attempt to generate tempo.

A great card to serve as example is a card like Daze. Daze, in my original noble fish shell served as the ultimate early game tempo tool. With daze you'd basically be able to shut down your opponent's early game plays while also having the option to tap out on turn 2 for a Pride/Goyf/whatever knowing you had a counter to back them up. That Daze could help mean the difference between a resolved pride/goyf or not.

The pros of this approach are that counters can also be used to foil almost any strategy out there given the right timing. They are incredibly flexible disruption cards. That is a main reason Force of Will is a mainstay of Vintage. It isn't Force of Will's tempo advantage that keeps it in Vintage (on the contrary it is technically a 2 for 1 in your opponent's favor). It is Force of Wills ability to switch roles on a dime that keeps it playable in Vintage. The price of that flexibility is a pretty narrow window to seal the deal before your opponent recovers and overwhelms you with threats and card advantage. This is why noble fish had to run such an efficient beat stick like Tarmogoyf. It aimed to win the game in a narrow window.

Mayor Fish is far more of a 'Juggernaut' type of deck that just keeps on coming with static threats. It wins the tempo war on the board and really just seeks to dump its hand on the board (though obviously corner cases like playing around ratchet bomb and pyroclasm need to be considered). It tends to shift between the roles of prison and aggro, but it is not a control deck in that it doesn't try to answer specific cards of an opponents the way that counterspells do. I find noble fish to be far more akin to UBR Jace decks actually because it counters just enough threats to then sweep in for the win. The difference is a win con that beats down for 4-5 for 3-4 turns instead of more fragile insta-wins like Tinker-->bot and TV/Key.

I think equating these two decks is the same generalization players who don't do their research make of different shop variants. An experienced shop pilot KNOWS there is a huge difference between Martello Shops and Espresso Shops. Players ignorant of the intricacies of the archetype will glom them together as the same archetype but they have clear and stark differences.

-Storm

[brianpk80]

These 'Human Fish' decks are basically just hybrids of GW or Meandeck Beats. No need to artificially create a new archetype for them.

Congratulations on your great results recently, Brian!

Thank you.   

I think equating these two decks is the same generalization players who don't do their research make of different shop variants. An experienced shop pilot KNOWS there is a huge difference between Martello Shops and Espresso Shops.

It's definitely a distinguishable variant but I don't see how it would be a sixth pillar.  We know the term Fish originated with the U/R Merfolk decks and over time came to encompass pretty much anything that qualified as a tempo deck starring utility creatures and cheap disruption.  People used to say it's not Fish if it doesn't have Null Rod; Chalice doesn't make it Fish; it needs FoW; it's not Fish if it doesn't run 4 Wastelands; Vial is not Fish--and this was pointless then and cluelessly silly since at that point none of the decks even had "Fish" (Merfolk) in them.  If someone wants to call the Fish Pillar the "Creature" Pillar, that's fine.  If it's called the "Null Rod" Pillar, that works too for practical purposes although it's an obvious misnomer since Null Rod is rarely played and hasn't been an auto-maindeck card for years even before Stony Silence.  It still gets the point across that it's a reference to utility creatures, tempo, & disruption.  In the big picture, Mayor is always going to look more like "Fish" than "Bazaar" or "Workshop," each of which have many variations themselves that play very differently as you note.  And as a practical matter, if you think someone isn't up to date on how different variations play out, you can use that to your advantage.  As long as you know the difference, and you do, you're in the better position. 

So here's a question for the day... given the current state (few combo decks, Planeswalkers, Bazaars, Factories) and this deck's lack of reliance on Fetchlands, what's a better maindeck call, Stony Silence or Suppression Field?   

[Guli]

Brian, I don't recognize or acknowledge those pillars anymore. I find them outdated. I defined my reasons why I find Cavern human a new archetype. Yes it 'looks' like some classical lists, but that does not mean it follows the same routes to victory or has the same gameplan.

[brianpk80]

Brian, I don't recognize or acknowledge those pillars anymore. I find them outdated.

That's a fair point.  Many decks today are fusions of the traditional schools and aren't easily classified.  Did you see the new creature spoiled today, Sin Collector?

[StanleyAugust]

These 'Human Fish' decks are basically just hybrids of GW or Meandeck Beats. No need to artificially create a new archetype for them.

And why do you think this is the case?

I am telling you, the guy who put in a considerable amount of time and effort in designing and playing all of these 'fishy' and 'gw' decks, there are key differences. There is no need to create any archetypes at all in this game. We create them to get a better understanding of how decks work. What the differences are and get a better understanding on the match ups etc. I would like to avoid that people think this is another fish deck or gw deck, take it to a tourney, play it out like a fish or gw deck and then have bad results.

Don't just post random things to get on top, it doesn't help out.

I don't know what you mean by your last sentence. I don't post random things and I don't even know what "to get on top" is supposed to mean.

Of course there are differences in how the decks play out. I'm not arguing with that. If there weren't, there would be no reason to play one or another. All I'm saying is that I think it's a bit far stretched to name this as a new archetype when in reality it's just a natural development of GW Beats or Meandeck Beats based on new cards printed.

[Guli]

These 'Human Fish' decks are basically just hybrids of GW or Meandeck Beats. No need to artificially create a new archetype for them.

And why do you think this is the case?

I am telling you, the guy who put in a considerable amount of time and effort in designing and playing all of these 'fishy' and 'gw' decks, there are key differences. There is no need to create any archetypes at all in this game. We create them to get a better understanding of how decks work. What the differences are and get a better understanding on the match ups etc. I would like to avoid that people think this is another fish deck or gw deck, take it to a tourney, play it out like a fish or gw deck and then have bad results.

Don't just post random things to get on top, it doesn't help out.

I don't know what you mean by your last sentence. I don't post random things and I don't even know what "to get on top" is supposed to mean.

Of course there are differences in how the decks play out. I'm not arguing with that. If there weren't, there would be no reason to play one or another. All I'm saying is that I think it's a bit far stretched to name this as a new archetype when in reality it's just a natural development of GW Beats or Meandeck Beats based on new cards printed.

Ok, noted.

And to add more, it is an advantage that the human core exists of cards who could be used in other archetypes (Bob in blue control, thalia in GW beats, Noble in Noble Fish for example). So picking up these cards and building Mayor Caverns is attractive for someone who wants to come into vintage, have fun, be competitive and have good cards in his/her collection.

[nedleeds]

Congrats on the finish. That being said I'll never draw 1 x Batterskull, 1 x SFM in the correct order. Nor will I ever draw my 1 Cage vs. Oath or Dredge. Why no Vampiric Tutor? You have Scrubland. Sometimes you just need Strip Mine / Wasteland.

[Protoaddict]

Yea I think I disagree with the concept of Human Caverns being a pillar, however I do think this deck does feel different from a fish or GW deck.

Caverns is a staple more than a pillar, much like wastelands, and you would never call wastelands a pillar. Goblins, Merfolk and Elves can and do use card and I would go ahead and argue that they are core to those decks strategies just as much as it is to this list.

But do keep posting results.

[Stormanimagus]

With Notion Thief and Sin Collector now in the mix I might spin off Brian's recent success with 4-color Humans with a list along the lines of this. Tweaks and improvements are, of course, welcome.

Land (22):
4 Cavern Of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (5):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet

Enchantments (2):
2 Stony Silence

Creatures (27):
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Meddling Mage
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor Of Avabruck
3 Fiend Hunter
3 Notion Thief

Instants (3):
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk


SB
3 Sin Collector
1 Stony Silence
3 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Devout Witness
3 Rest in Peace
1 Wasteland
2 Mishra’s Factory


As you can see I run no mental missteps like Brian has been, but I think the SB Sin Collectors help in the match-ups where misstep was necessary. I think I'd rather have Deathrite Shamans to beat shops than misstep to bolster us against combo/blue as I already think we have solid game there with meddling, thalia, stony.

-Storm

[brianpk80]

Very solid.  Against blue, you're also protected against Tinker by Meddlings, delay tactics, Swords, and Fiend Hunter (which gets through Tinker + Force backup via Cavern) so neutralizing Time Vault generally ensures a win, although anyone can lose on occasion to its ability to have random blunt broken no-brains openers.  I like Bojuka Bog in the sideboard because it can't be hit by Cabal Therapy, Mental Misstep, Unmask, Nature's Claim, or Wispmare.  The more diverse the hate package, the better positioned one is to fight their protection.  Luckily, there's soft hate from Thalia, Deathrite, Hunter, Swords, Meddling Mage, Wasteland, and Mayor of Avabruck so the match-up doesn't crutch on silver bullets as much as it would for other decks.   2 Notion Thiefs may be enough.  I'd suggest 21 land and the Ruby since turn 1 Thalia/Bob is so swingy and there's more pressure to have early interaction without the Missteps.  

Another Human I've been testing with good results is Eternal Witness.  In Mayor Fish, it's comparable to an uncounterable Snapcaster that can retrieve Wastelands & dead creatures in addition to the usual palette of targets.  You might want to substitute a Witness for a Notion Thief and 1 Ruby in place of a land or 1 Deathrite Shaman.  Either way, it's a competent build.  Nice job.    

[Stormanimagus]

Very solid.  Against blue, you're also protected against Tinker by Meddlings, delay tactics, Swords, and Fiend Hunter (which gets through Tinker + Force backup via Cavern) so neutralizing Time Vault generally ensures a win, although anyone can lose on occasion to its ability to have random blunt broken no-brains openers.  I like Bojuka Bog in the sideboard because it can't be hit by Cabal Therapy, Mental Misstep, Unmask, Nature's Claim, or Wispmare.  The more diverse the hate package, the better positioned one is to fight their protection.  Luckily, there's soft hate from Thalia, Deathrite, Hunter, Swords, Meddling Mage, Wasteland, and Mayor of Avabruck so the match-up doesn't crutch on silver bullets as much as it would for other decks.   2 Notion Thiefs may be enough.  I'd suggest 21 land and the Ruby since turn 1 Thalia/Bob is so swingy and there's more pressure to have early interaction without the Missteps.  

Another Human I've been testing with good results is Eternal Witness.  In Mayor Fish, it's comparable to an uncounterable Snapcaster that can retrieve Wastelands & dead creatures in addition to the usual palette of targets.  You might want to substitute a Witness for a Notion Thief and 1 Ruby in place of a land or 1 Deathrite Shaman.  Either way, it's a competent build.  Nice job.    

I ran the 1 Bog in the Knight variant but I don't like 1-of dredge hate cards when there are clear "best" ones. like RIP is clearly awesome and the only reason I don't run 4 is that GD cage is crossover hate I feel the deck still needs to run and 3 seems like the magic number. I think RIP is so uniquely powerful against dredge I could never see not running 3-4. I may even try to squeeze the 4th in somehow.

You may be correct on mox ruby's inclusion, but with 3 Shaman and 4 Noble already I'd almost rather just add another fetchland to ensure Shaman being online early. E-Witness is interesting, but I don't really like the GG in the cost and the fact that it doesn't have flash does not make it comparable to Snapcaster in this deck IMO. If you are having success with it go for it, but I'd like to hear specific game scenarios where it was the difference maker for you and why.

-Storm

[brianpk80]

I ran the 1 Bog in the Knight variant but I don't like 1-of dredge hate cards when there are clear "best" ones. like RIP is clearly awesome and the only reason I don't run 4 is that GD cage is crossover hate I feel the deck still needs to run and 3 seems like the magic number. I think RIP is so uniquely powerful against dredge I could never see not running 3-4. I may even try to squeeze the 4th in somehow.

It is clearly the best anti-Dredge effect, but relying on it too much sets up positions where you could flat out auto-lose to Unmask/Cabal Therapy, especially if you're only running 4 Moxen. 

You may be correct on mox ruby's inclusion, but with 3 Shaman and 4 Noble already I'd almost rather just add another fetchland to ensure Shaman being online early. E-Witness is interesting, but I don't really like the GG in the cost and the fact that it doesn't have flash does not make it comparable to Snapcaster in this deck IMO. If you are having success with it go for it, but I'd like to hear specific game scenarios where it was the difference maker for you and why.

It's been the game-changer several times.  Most commonly, the opponent is on the verge of breaking out of Thalia's soft lock until I play a Witness and recur a Strip Mine or Wasteland.  I've used it to bring back Stony Silence, Mishra's Factory, Ancestral Recall, Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, and Swords to Plowshares, and each time that happened, it was the determinative play.  We can't run Snapcaster because there aren't enough instants/sorceries to support it (and if there were, that would conflict w. Thalia) but anytime there's have access to an uncounterable 2 for 1, it merits consideration.  GG is as easy if not easier to find than UW.   

Note that the fact that Strip/Waste is the most common target doesn't mean Crucible should be run.  It's the versatility as well as the uncounterability + no added Thalia tax + Human body that makes the package.  Limiting it to something that can only recur lands would be like playing Crop Rotation over Vampiric Tutor. 

[Guli]

Caverns, only needs to put out a couple threats to ask the opponent what they are doing. Usually this is a Thalia and a Bob or a Thalia and a Mayor. You can sit back at that point and make them search for answers, if they don't you will be able to get easily ahead and convert that into a win. This works because Thalia stops any deck from going too broken, and bob or mayor both generate value the more they are around.

So the plan is  , accelerate into these core creatures of Caverns and then hold cards like Aven Mindcensor and Notion Thief to counter the two most important strategies of blue; Tutoring and Drawing. I don't know if Deputy, that bounces, would be good in this approach, but it could theoretically save your creatures. Personally I don't think that is enough, so I would like more value and synergy before I consider the Deputy. I decided to throw in Sin Collectors in the sideboard. I see Storm is thinking the same thing, good stuff. It is a card that will negate their evil plans, before they can apply them (which is why Thalia is played).

Deathrite Shaman is a wonderfull card for 1cc. The most crucial role I see in the card inside Caverns is that it negates any value the opponent can gain from Crucible of Worlds. The problem for me is, if I am running Dr. Shaman I am accepting that Crucible is my weakness and I am trying to fix it in a direct manner. It does not feel like I am doing my own thing. If it was a 1 off in the deck and there would be a nice way to tutor it up, I could see it more as a creative solution to counter Crucible without using up 3 or 4 slots. What I am trying to say is, there is too much investment for a 1 drop that does do good things, but not GREAT things. I want the card around (have access to it when I need it), but I don't want to have 2 or 3 in my hand.

Brian and I were working on Caverns these past days/week and tried to use cards that generate cards like Witness does. The more you use cards like this, the harder you make it for control decks to get a grip on you. Other examples are Trinket Mage, Imperial Recruiter, Shardless Agent, and so on. These cards are not liked by Jace either, never want to bounce them.

I think a combination of these 2v1'ers and a couple of Avens and Thiefs will set up a good game. I think Sol Ring and Mana crypt should be brought back though (to help against spheres and to power out your 3cc and 4cc dudes). So you can play the wait and flash in game, or you can aggressively cast your card generators. Or you can dismiss the idea of leaving mana open and go for the usual tempo plays. Tests will show if Thief is worth it.