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Author Topic: Need help with a Neo-Academy deck  (Read 13161 times)
Rarycaris
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« on: February 12, 2013, 04:57:08 pm »

I've built this deck as an experimental sort of thing, and so far it's worked reasonably well:-

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Land and Mana Sources:
1x Tolarian Academy

1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Grim Monolith
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
4x Chrome Mox
4x Mox Opal

Card draw:

1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
4x Preordain
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Timetwister
4x Time Spiral
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Windfall

Misc spells:

4x Goblin Charbelcher
1x Time Walk
4x Expedition Map
4x Force of Will
3x Voltaic Key
1x Time Vault
1x Tinker
1x Memory Jar

Sideboard:

4x Pact of Negation
4x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Thirst for Knowledge
4x Brain Freeze
1x Mind's Desire
1x Voltaic Key

I'm more or less happy with the mainboard, but I've got a few issues with the sideboard. The Brain Freezes were meant to be a secondary Storm win condition, but this very rarely seems to work out in practice (though I'm not sure whether this is because the deck list is wrong for it or I just haven't learned how to play Storm), so I could use suggestions for that. I also don't have much to use against Workshops decks, which are obviously an abysmal matchup for this deck so far: if they win the roll and get a Sphere effect or Null Rod down on turn 1, it's game over on the spot. I'm not sure whether Mind's Desire should be in the mainboard (and if so what to cut for it) and I suspect 4x Pact is excessive, though I'm not sure what I would put in their place.

Any advice?
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 10:05:52 am »

I saw this deck when it top 8ed last summer.  Its definitely one of the funnest and most powerful glass cannons that I've ever played.  I came to the conclusion that Leyline of Anticipation is pretty much just superior to force of will.  You don't really need your land drop so its basically like auto winning the die roll by having one in your opener. 
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credmond
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 01:07:55 pm »

Does Candelabra of Tawnos belong in here? Seems good, especially with the extra keys you are running.
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Rarycaris
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 02:28:30 pm »

I saw this deck when it top 8ed last summer.  Its definitely one of the funnest and most powerful glass cannons that I've ever played.  I came to the conclusion that Leyline of Anticipation is pretty much just superior to force of will.  You don't really need your land drop so its basically like auto winning the die roll by having one in your opener. 

Hmm, it seems like a sideboard option -- against anything except Shops, it's basically irrelevant, and it's still dead if you win the dice roll. Might cut the pacts for it, since I rarely seem to find myself using them, unless it's another caseof me not knowing how and when to use the card. I tried Brain Freeze and it works best when you just cut the belchers for it, make a cut for Mind's Desire and leave the rest of the deck unmolested -- which suggests that the Recalls might be dubious.

I don't think Candelabra is that good here. You have to have the Academy out, which usually means getting both the Candelabra and the Expedition Map to resolve. And if you don't have it, it's a dead card, whereas Voltaic Key intercts nicely with mana vaults etc while also threatening a Time Vault win. Finally, what would I actually cut for it?
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tito del monte
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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2013, 03:59:11 am »

Wow this looks like such a mad fun deck - definitely going to have a goldfish of it later!

Just a couple of ideas that might help:
Is Cunning Wish any use here? I'm not sure how much mana you tend to generate when going off, but this would allow you to grab a brain freeze, bounce spell, draw spell or counter from the board depending on what you're facing.

Transmute Artifact: Again this depends on how much mana you tend to get going but would certainly find Time Vault easily and Belcher at a push.

And for the Workshop board: You'll have to check Smennen's articles but I think I'm right in saying he used Teferi's Realm in his Doomsday sideboard. Not ideal here as you would lose the artifacts in play you used to cast it for your going off turn, but I guess it depends on just how much gas you tend to have in your hand with this deck.
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Rarycaris
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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 12:14:39 pm »

OK, done a bit more testing:-

1) Leyline isn't going to help this deck win on turn 1 against Workshop decks. The Academy land drop matters quite a lot -- I find myself getting it out most of the time when I win. Additionally, not being able to put it down makes Expedition Map completely dead and Time Spiral nearly as much so... unless Hurkyl's Recall is THAT effective as a replacement form of mana ramp, I don't think I can sideboard enough cards in for this plan to be viable. I'll update on this; suggestions welcome, because Workshop decks are by far the most problematic matchup. The main issue is that it's easy for them to t1 play more than one card I absolutely must counter, and I can only usually reliably Force one card.

Anyway, the weakness of Workshop decks is that they really can't interact with your instant speed shenanigans. So I think a better use for Leyline is to get my foot in the door and force a few mana rocks down, which with the extra keys might suffice to ramp my way through their sphere effects once it gets to my actual turn. That makes Null Rod the only card that absolutely hoses me (unavoidable, so I just have to make sure I can counter it). For that, I still need Force of Will, which raises the question of what I can board out for the Leylines... too many answer cards destroys the flow of the deck.

2) Dredge hate is basically irrelevant, at least assuming I'm using the right stuff (Grafdigger's Cage etc). If a dredge deck gives me the time and means to get hate for it in play before they just win, I might as well use the time and cards to just win before they can get going.

3) I could use some advice on how Pact of Negation would be correctly used in this deck, if at all.

4) I don't think Cunning Wish is going to work, though again I'll test it. It doesn't do enough for three mana... if I have that much mana to spare I'd rather be trying to draw into my win conditions. The only thing I might urgently need is Brain Freeze, and in that instance I might as well just run that in place of the Wish. Maybe I can use it to fetch Pact of Negation to protect my combo, but I don't see it doing much else and if I'm in a position to cast it profitably, chances are I've already broken through the counter wall. People don't tend to try to counter my win conditions; they tend to try to counter the things I need to get going, such as Expedition Map or one of my many draw-sevens.

5) The Storm plan is definitely a thing, and is probably going to be my answer to Revokers naming Charbelcher (which as-is just shuts down the mainboard if it resolves). Being able to board in 5 or 6 cards and have a functionally entirely different deck seems valuable.

6) Excess Voltaic Keys are definitely a good idea. Thanks to Time Vault, they present a threat that the opponent must counter but which I don't care that much about resolving -- sacrificing it to make my opponent ditch an otherwise-problematic counterspell is a fair trade, IMO. I don't think I can get away with a fourth mainboard, sadly.

For those who're going to goldfish this, do let me know how variations work for you!

EDIT: I'm sceptical of Transmute Artifact. Running cards solely for their interaction with Time Vault seems dubious when it is at best a secondary plan or counter bait.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2013, 12:52:14 pm »

I saw this deck when it top 8ed last summer.  Its definitely one of the funnest and most powerful glass cannons that I've ever played.  I came to the conclusion that Leyline of Anticipation is pretty much just superior to force of will.  You don't really need your land drop so its basically like auto winning the die roll by having one in your opener.  

Hmm, it seems like a sideboard option -- against anything except Shops, it's basically irrelevant, and it's still dead if you win the dice roll. Might cut the pacts for it, since I rarely seem to find myself using them, unless it's another caseof me not knowing how and when to use the card. I tried Brain Freeze and it works best when you just cut the belchers for it, make a cut for Mind's Desire and leave the rest of the deck unmolested -- which suggests that the Recalls might be dubious.

It's not completely dead in other match ups.  Youre always going to get a free untap step for all of your artifacts, which is generally pretty relevant.  It opens up casting critical spells at EOT and then during your is a great way to put a tax on your opponents resources.  Also against other turn 1 combo decks going on the play is critical.  Hitting your mana sources before they play a draw 7 or casting a draw 7 of your own before they can do anything can easily win you a game.

My biggest reason for wanting leyline over force was that force required me to pitch a card.  This was not something that I ever wanted to do nor was I even capable of doing sometimes.  The deck is already running 4 chrome mox as one of its primary blue sources.  I would find myself in situations it would cause me to fizzle if I were to pitch a card to force.  If I was pitching a card it would usually end up being a preordain, which could potentially just dig for the card I'm saving.

For this reason I also did like pact of negation out of the board more than force.

Anyway, the weakness of Workshop decks is that they really can't interact with your instant speed shenanigans. So I think a better use for Leyline is to get my foot in the door and force a few mana rocks down, which with the extra keys might suffice to ramp my way through their sphere effects once it gets to my actual turn. That makes Null Rod the only card that absolutely hoses me (unavoidable, so I just have to make sure I can counter it). For that, I still need Force of Will, which raises the question of what I can board out for the Leylines... too many answer cards destroys the flow of the deck.

This is what I was using leyline for against workshops.  It would basically provide me the time to play and activate map before they could do anything.  I don't know how many workshop variants you are playing against that have null rod, I personally haven't seen that in years.  You can and probably should respond to their first cast instead of trying to go off in the upkeep.  This gives the information advantage to you.  You know what lock piece you have to play around and they won't be able to revoker your key mana source.

EDIT: I'm sceptical of Transmute Artifact. Running cards solely for their interaction with Time Vault seems dubious when it is at best a secondary plan or counter bait.

I don't know if I was playing this differently than you or not, but I would win off vault/key almost as often as I was directly winning off belcher.  The issue I'd see with transmute artifact is that its UU, which makes it pretty much only castable off tolarian.
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Rarycaris
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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2013, 08:39:16 pm »

It's not completely dead in other match ups.  Youre always going to get a free untap step for all of your artifacts, which is generally pretty relevant.

Not always -- you'll get a free untap step half the time. The other half of the time, you'll win the die roll and Leyline will be completely dead if you're trying to go off on turn 1.

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It opens up casting critical spells at EOT and then during your is a great way to put a tax on your opponents resources.

Again, this is a deck that really wants to be winning by turn 3 at the very latest. If the game is at the point where attritioning out your opponent's resources with strategies like this, I suspect you've already basically lost.

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Also against other turn 1 combo decks going on the play is critical.

So is being able to counter their shenanigans, which is why Force exists in the first place. It's a safety valve. If you play Force against those decks, you cripple them unless they have a Force of their own. If you play Leyline against another combo deck and you have the reources to get a decisive advantage but not to outright win on the spot, you're screwed.

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Hitting your mana sources before they play a draw 7 or casting a draw 7 of your own before they can do anything can easily win you a game.

Sorry, could you go into more detail here? If they draw badly off your draw 7, you're good... but how often is that going to happen to a well-built deck? How often is your opponent going to play a draw-7 that cripples you? (That's not rhetorical, I'm not familiar enough with the Vintage meta to know)

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My biggest reason for wanting leyline over force was that force required me to pitch a card.  This was not something that I ever wanted to do

Force is never a card you cast because you want to. It's a card you cast because you have to.

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nor was I even capable of doing sometimes.

This, however, is a legitimate issue I've come into often. I can't really think of any way around it, though -- going in without Force backup is frequently suicide -- and sometimes you have the spare mana to hardcast it. In the situations I've needed it and not been able to use it, Pact would not have been a viable replacement, and I doubt I can get away with Mana Drain.

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The deck is already running 4 chrome mox as one of its primary blue sources.  I would find myself in situations it would cause me to fizzle if I were to pitch a card to force.  If I was pitching a card it would usually end up being a preordain, which could potentially just dig for the card I'm saving.

For what it's worth, I usually pitch Gitaxian Probe. It only digs down 1 card, and is consequently often not that useful beyond being a nearly-free cantrip.

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This is what I was using leyline for against workshops.  It would basically provide me the time to play and activate map before they could do anything.  I don't know how many workshop variants you are playing against that have null rod, I personally haven't seen that in years.  You can and probably should respond to their first cast instead of trying to go off in the upkeep.  This gives the information advantage to you.  You know what lock piece you have to play around and they won't be able to revoker your key mana source.

That's good advice; thanks. I was judging Null Rod by the Workshop deck I originally built, which ran several Null Rods as answers to most of the stuff that goes on in the mirror.

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I don't know if I was playing this differently than you or not, but I would win off vault/key almost as often as I was directly winning off belcher.  The issue I'd see with transmute artifact is that its UU, which makes it pretty much only castable off tolarian.

I can reach UU reasonably often. The issue is opposing counterspells, and Time Vault is one of those things people tend to expect and plan for

What would you personally cut for Transmute? It's gotta be worth a try, at any rate.
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serracollector
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 07:11:31 am »

I have a version of this deck but with some slieght changes which I have found to make it more consistant (at least IMO):

Original List:
1x Tolarian Academy

1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Grim Monolith
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
4x Chrome Mox
4x Mox Opal

Card draw:

1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
4x Preordain
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Timetwister
4x Time Spiral
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Windfall

Misc spells:

4x Goblin Charbelcher
1x Time Walk
4x Expedition Map
4x Force of Will
3x Voltaic Key
1x Time Vault
1x Tinker
1x Memory Jar


My List(Changes in Bold):

1x Tolarian Academy

1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Grim Monolith
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
3x Chrome Mox
3x Mox Opal


Card draw:
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
4x Preordain
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Timetwister
4x Time Spiral
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Windfall

Misc spells:

3x Tezzeret the Seeker
3x Sensies Diving Top

4x Goblin Charbelcher
1x Time Walk
4x Expedition Map
4x Force of Will
3x Voltaic Key
1x Time Vault
1x Tinker
1x Memory Jar


I found 4 mox opal lead to too many hands with 2+ opals, and 4 chrome mox lead to too many hands where I HAD to exile my business to have mana for anything else.  Tezzeret can find Belcher, or TV, thus becoming an 8 mana Win Condition (5 for tezz, find belcher, 3 to activate belcher), it also gets around things like Meddling Mage naming belcher, and it can actually produce mana (cast tezz, untap 2 grim monliths +1 mana for example), and is an alternate win condition, by being able to activate all your artifacts, and swing on turn 2-3.  Having 3 more silver bullets helps alot.

Top is amazing, and I am surprised it wasn't ran before probe long beforehand.  Being able to look at your top 3, reorganize, then pop top to draw def beats drawing 1 random card for 2 life.  And ofc if for some reason it does go to turn 4+, you can always use top + key to start drawing until you can attempt to go off again.

My 2 cents, hope it helps.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2013, 11:31:43 pm »

It's not completely dead in other match ups.  Youre always going to get a free untap step for all of your artifacts, which is generally pretty relevant.

Not always -- you'll get a free untap step half the time. The other half of the time, you'll win the die roll and Leyline will be completely dead if you're trying to go off on turn 1.

On the play with a leyline out you can play your turn 1 as usual.  Then your turn 2 you can play in your opponents end step providing you with a "free" untap if you need it.

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It opens up casting critical spells at EOT and then during your is a great way to put a tax on your opponents resources.

Again, this is a deck that really wants to be winning by turn 3 at the very latest. If the game is at the point where attritioning out your opponent's resources with strategies like this, I suspect you've already basically lost.

Attrition suggests a long battle.  I'm talking about going off at different time, which if done correctly will make all non free counter magic much worse against you.

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Also against other turn 1 combo decks going on the play is critical.

So is being able to counter their shenanigans, which is why Force exists in the first place. It's a safety valve. If you play Force against those decks, you cripple them unless they have a Force of their own. If you play Leyline against another combo deck and you have the reources to get a decisive advantage but not to outright win on the spot, you're screwed.

Force only stops 1 card though and at the cost of an additional one of your own.  Leyline can literally win you the game before they do anything.

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Hitting your mana sources before they play a draw 7 or casting a draw 7 of your own before they can do anything can easily win you a game.

Sorry, could you go into more detail here? If they draw badly off your draw 7, you're good... but how often is that going to happen to a well-built deck? How often is your opponent going to play a draw-7 that cripples you? (That's not rhetorical, I'm not familiar enough with the Vintage meta to know)

I'm talking about leyline giving you the ability to capitalize on your opponent's draw 7's and maximize your own draw 7's.  It's not about you or them getting crippled.  Its about you gaining an advantage off them.

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The deck is already running 4 chrome mox as one of its primary blue sources.  I would find myself in situations it would cause me to fizzle if I were to pitch a card to force.  If I was pitching a card it would usually end up being a preordain, which could potentially just dig for the card I'm saving.

For what it's worth, I usually pitch Gitaxian Probe. It only digs down 1 card, and is consequently often not that useful beyond being a nearly-free cantrip.

Yes you can pitch probes, but that wasn't my point.  You need to pitch cards to both force and chrome mox in order to use them.  This is generally hard to do and still keep action cards.

I can reach UU reasonably often. The issue is opposing counterspells, and Time Vault is one of those things people tend to expect and plan for

Time vault has fallen out of favor now in the current meta game.  Its not really that common a card to see in top 8's any more.  So I wouldn't say decks are expecting or planning for it as much as they used to.

What would you personally cut for Transmute? It's gotta be worth a try, at any rate.

I'm not sure I would cut anything for trasmute.  However, I do like serracollector's idea of Tezzeret.  It achieves the same goal of grabbing Time vault at a slightly higher mana cost, but gives you a legitimate win con via his ultimate if someone shuts off your belcher.  The 4th moxes, which he cut, as well as LED seem like the weakest cards in the list to me.  I personally liked probe.
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serracollector
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2013, 10:07:15 pm »

I would NEVER cut LED.  Its 3 mana to activate belcher, or its 3 mana to float after one of your plethora of draw 7's.  Nope would never cut lotus #2.  And don't forget tezz can find Belcher as well.  He does start with 4 counters.  I have dropped tezz before, and people assume Im gonna get Time vault (with no Key out), and let it resolve cuz they got a critter/bolt, then I sac tezz to get belcher, and win that turn.  This has happened more than once in testing.  People always assume TV or Key with Tezz, they never think about you grabbing belcher with it, and just winning with 3 mana that turn.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2013, 12:27:51 pm »

I would NEVER cut LED.  Its 3 mana to activate belcher, or its 3 mana to float after one of your plethora of draw 7's.  Nope would never cut lotus #2.  And don't forget tezz can find Belcher as well.  He does start with 4 counters.  I have dropped tezz before, and people assume Im gonna get Time vault (with no Key out), and let it resolve cuz they got a critter/bolt, then I sac tezz to get belcher, and win that turn.  This has happened more than once in testing.  People always assume TV or Key with Tezz, they never think about you grabbing belcher with it, and just winning with 3 mana that turn.

LED is a far cry from lotus.  Basically it's only two uses in this deck are activating belcher and going all in on a draw 7.  The latter can bite you just as often as it helps you.  Both are essentially win more situations.  If I'm resolving a draw 7 or belcher I should be in really great shape to win the game.  It's very unlikely that Ill actually need the 3 mana from LED in order to win.
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serracollector
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2013, 02:41:00 am »

4 mana to cast a belcher is easy to get.  Having LED to win with Belcher that turn happens so much, I still would never drop it.  LED is amazing in this deck.  Maybe its cuz I run the Tezz?  So search for LED has happened after expending a lotus, that way I could get belcher and activate it the next turn. 
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Rarycaris
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« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2013, 09:03:24 pm »

OK, I've been messing around with this a bit more, testing against various people who aren't up to tournament standard but are at least somewhat familiar with Vintage, and I think the mainboard is basically fine as-is. Sometimes I mull badly but I think that's just the nature of the beast with this style of deck and mana-wise this deck is about as consistent as it's going to get. LED won me a crazy amount of games I would otherwise have lost (often without even cracking it -- just having the extra 0-drop artifact can matter a lot). FOW is definitely necessary with the number of Balustrade Spy combo decks running around; at the moment I'm using them in game 1 and boarding them out in matches where I feel it's safe. I haven't properly tried Sensei's Top yet... same goes for Tezzeret, but with the main issue being getting enough mana I'd be surprised if cutting my basic cantrips for it were viable. (Also, redundant Chrome Moxes and Opals make nice Tinker targets.) I'll update this when I've got time to seriously try them out.

The sideboard is still a little awkward:-

4x Hurkyl's Recall
4x Brain Freeze
4x Leyline of Anticipation (underperformed maindeck, but almost always worth boarding in in games when you know you're going second and essentially a necessity against Workshop decks which know what they're fighting)
Mind's Desire
Voltaic Key
Thirst for Knowledge

All of these have performed well except for Hurkyl's Recall, which only really seems good for either boosting my mana when I already have an abundance of mana artifacts (sometimes needed but not very often) or getting rid of opposing cards that are more annoying than dangerous -- the most threatening artifcts will stop me casting HR in the first place. I think I can run four hate cards (in the slots where FOW is currently maindecked), but not much more than that. How common is Leyline of Sanctity these days? I see four options here:

1) Cut the Recalls for 4x Cyclonic Rift or other bounce effect (I suggest Cyclonic Rift because it can get rid of multiple Leylines with one card if need be) and get rid of the Leyline directly.
2) Cut the Recalls for 4x Lab Maniac and try for some convoluted self-milling with my Storm sideboard plan.
3) Leave the sideboard unchanged and hope to not run into Leyline of Sanctity, since most of the decks I'm facing will need to dedicate 8 or mpore slots to beating Dredge and will hopefully be unable to make room for niche hate. Keep Recall as an option for the situations where it matters.
4) Again ignore the threat of Leyline, but replace the Recalls with Divining Tops -- if they work better than Probes -- and board them in in matchups where having stuff to pitch to Force is not a relevant concern.

Advice?

EDIT: Just realised Tezzeret gets around Leyline. But I doubt I'll be able to get his ultimate off against an opponent who knows it's my only way to win. Most decks will have either have killed me by then, have some form of damage spell in hand or will have creatures on the board to deal a point of damage to Tezzeret and shut me down completely. Bob, in particular. The idea definitely has potential but I think I need to be a bit more careful than reducing the number of mana sources.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 09:29:41 pm by Rarycaris » Logged
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