Why play Bomberman? (NE US)

[disrupting specter]

I really don't like the look and flavor of Vintage since about summer 2012, particularly in the NJ, NY, PA US area. It doesn't fit the kinds of decks I expect and hope to see. I'm having a hard time keeping my question specific rather than have this turn into a format vision/card design/BAR discussion. If I look at a first place deck and see restricted cards+expensive artifact/Tendrils/Voltaic Key, I feel like everything is right with the world of magic. (Yes, Workshop and Dredge are ok too sometimes). That has not been happening for a while. I'm not a control player so it is making it hard for me to understand deck choices.

What little I do understand is that I lose to Jace, the Mind Sculptor with a competent player behind him. Hell, I've even played a blue deck and managed to win some test games with him. 4XJace is a given in my mind. He can be put into a few decks--Grixis, Landstill, UW Bomberman, maybe even 5C Control. Grixis/5C feels like it "should win" based on my impression above. (Which I'm sure there are reasons why it doesn't) Landstill has 5 Ancestral Recalls and it seems hard to make #2-5 symetrical/backfire. Why play UW Bomberman though? I'm sure it wins for a reason. Its not a fluke, luck case or even a case of good players winning with bad decks because their skill carries them . Not being a control player, I can't just play it and see how good it is.

Wasn't it developed in a time where various Tendrils and Slaver decks ruled and it was just a cute novelty? Why bring it back now?

Doesn't Trinket Mage cost as much as Grim Tutor and do less?

Why no restricted cards? Aren't they restricted for a reason?
Tinker?-there must be an artifact that doesn't lose to Phyrexian Metamorph
Brainstorm?
Ponder?
Non-Trinket Mage tutors? Including Gifts Ungiven?
Yawgmoth's Win?

Why does it look like it lacks an early game? Everything costs 3-4 and there is no "draw engine" cheaper than Jace--no Preordain, Gush, Dark Confidant, Mystic Remora, AnYtHiNg??

[Samoht]

You're basically playing a hybrid deck. It parades as pure control but it turns into a fish style game. You play somewhat overcosted bears with restricted card triggers on them and end up burying your opponent in versatility and 2 for 1's. It might not be the flashiest win, but it's consistent as all hell.

[Ten-Ten]

Have you even piloted the deck? i don't mean goldfish either. you will have the answers to most of your questions once you actualy play the deck. I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, this is just one of those decks, like potucek's Landstill, that are not flashy but when piloted/mulliganed correctly they will get the job done in the current meta. Also, since the printing of Grafdiggers Cage, Bomberman just got significantly better. Not to mention Snapcaster Mage helped push critters in blue forward quite a bit.

[Wagner]

I really don't like the look and flavor of Vintage since about summer 2012, particularly in the NJ, NY, PA US area. It doesn't fit the kinds of decks I expect and hope to see. I'm having a hard time keeping my question specific rather than have this turn into a format vision/card design/BAR discussion. If I look at a first place deck and see restricted cards+expensive artifact/Tendrils/Voltaic Key, I feel like everything is right with the world of magic. (Yes, Workshop and Dredge are ok too sometimes). That has not been happening for a while. I'm not a control player so it is making it hard for me to understand deck choices.

What little I do understand is that I lose to Jace, the Mind Sculptor with a competent player behind him. Hell, I've even played a blue deck and managed to win some test games with him. 4XJace is a given in my mind. He can be put into a few decks--Grixis, Landstill, UW Bomberman, maybe even 5C Control. Grixis/5C feels like it "should win" based on my impression above. (Which I'm sure there are reasons why it doesn't) Landstill has 5 Ancestral Recalls and it seems hard to make #2-5 symetrical/backfire. Why play UW Bomberman though? I'm sure it wins for a reason. Its not a fluke, luck case or even a case of good players winning with bad decks because their skill carries them . Not being a control player, I can't just play it and see how good it is.

Wasn't it developed in a time where various Tendrils and Slaver decks ruled and it was just a cute novelty? Why bring it back now?

Doesn't Trinket Mage cost as much as Grim Tutor and do less?

Why no restricted cards? Aren't they restricted for a reason?
Tinker?-there must be an artifact that doesn't lose to Phyrexian Metamorph
Brainstorm?
Ponder?
Non-Trinket Mage tutors? Including Gifts Ungiven?
Yawgmoth's Win?

Why does it look like it lacks an early game? Everything costs 3-4 and there is no "draw engine" cheaper than Jace--no Preordain, Gush, Dark Confidant, Mystic Remora, AnYtHiNg??

I created the deck a bit before Tendrils got all crazy (was never a great matchup). It did have a great match against Slaver, all kinds of aggro and most of all, Dragon.

As others have said, you really really need to play the deck first. Trinket Mage is not a tutor, it's a beat with built-in toolbox. Most of the games you win by beating with 2 guys while controlling the board.

Tinker can be played in it, but really, Salvagers are your tinkers, they win on the spot and are usually more resistant to artifact hate.
Brainstorm is played in most lists, not sure why you asked.
As this is not a combo deck, Ponder is not needed, some play 1-2 Preordains.
Without a bunch of restricted cards, Gifts isn't all that good, you can't gift to assemble your combo well, and if it's late game and Recall and Walk are already played, it's a so-so draw 2. Fact or Fiction is mostly better.
Yawg's Win would mean adding black, which would warrant playing black tutors and Confidants, and weakening the manabase a lot, and that's just a very different deck at that point (we used to call it Bob-erman).

Its strength has always been polyvalence as it can be control, aggro or combo as needed, making it a hard deck to pilot has you need to know your role in every matchup, and an opponent that doesn't put you on the right role (i.e. will try by all means to stop your combo) will just gets beaten by overcosted bears. Sleeve it up and give it a try

[disrupting specter]

...I'm not a control player so it is making it hard for me to understand deck choices...
...Not being a control player, I can't just play it and see how good it is...

As others have said, you really really need to play the deck first...Sleeve it up and give it a try

I think I covered this. A few replies said to play the deck. I have and I'm getting it so far. When I lose, I understand why I'm losing and what decisions I should have made differently...but I haven't played against the Landstill player in my area. I'm totally expecting to lose to him because I don't understand the control match. Times where I've played a deck that has counterspells to force through threats and not to have a control mode have even not turned out well against other blue decks. I get confused when decks have multiple modes too. I'm never sure what mode I should be playing based on my hand and opponent. Times where I've just put together a deck to try to understand it have lead me to say, "I'm losing every game against everything. This deck is garbage." when the reality is that I just don't get it. That's why I'm throwing these questions out there. Thanks for the input. I'm starting to understand it.

Its a good deck. It seems like the cards have always been there though. Why is it doing so well now? Why haven't I seen this deck more in top 8 of Vintage Worlds past instead of restrictedcontrol.dec? Why did it only put one player into the top 8 this year? I haven't been able to beat it using Workshops, why didn't it blow past all those shops in the top 8?

[Wagner]

Its a good deck. It seems like the cards have always been there though. Why is it doing so well now? Why haven't I seen this deck more in top 8 of Vintage Worlds past instead of restrictedcontrol.dec? Why did it only put one player into the top 8 this year? I haven't been able to beat it using Workshops, why didn't it blow past all those shops in the top 8?

I t may well be for the same reason not a lot of people play Landstill, this is Vintage and people want to do broken things. A lot of players rarely venture away from the current best restricted blue deck (currently Gush or URB control). Also, as you said, it's not an easy deck to play (I'm not saying other blue decks are easy, but this one does play differently and it might be hard to adapt), but what I found best playing it, is that it's not an easy deck to play against.

As for the matchup against landstill, it's not all that good. Unless you can resolve an early Salvager, Bomberman is a bit slow and the landstill player can often ignore a lot of the maindeck utility it has (EE, Spellbomb, Mindcensor/Meddling).

[orgcandman]

Its a good deck. It seems like the cards have always been there though. Why is it doing so well now? Why haven't I seen this deck more in top 8 of Vintage Worlds past instead of restrictedcontrol.dec? Why did it only put one player into the top 8 this year? I haven't been able to beat it using Workshops, why didn't it blow past all those shops in the top 8?

I t may well be for the same reason not a lot of people play Landstill, this is Vintage and people want to do broken things. A lot of players rarely venture away from the current best restricted blue deck (currently Gush or URB control). Also, as you said, it's not an easy deck to play (I'm not saying other blue decks are easy, but this one does play differently and it might be hard to adapt), but what I found best playing it, is that it's not an easy deck to play against.

As for the matchup against landstill, it's not all that good. Unless you can resolve an early Salvager, Bomberman is a bit slow and the landstill player can often ignore a lot of the maindeck utility it has (EE, Spellbomb, Mindcensor/Meddling).

Want to be landstill? Save up for a small counter war, and follow up with anything that either has flying, or has larger than a 3 on the backside. You then go aggro, and win.
The matchup from bomberman can get rough if the bomberman player boards out utility and boards in overcosted bears.

[disrupting specter]

There's a LOT of information on TMD. Its a lot to get through if you don't have a love for control decks. Usually reading about decks that aren't blue aggro, shop or dredge make my eyes cross. It makes it harder when people want to turn a thread into 8 pages making the same arguments repeatedly . I did read through Bomberman Redux thread and started on Landstill primer. I probably wouldn't do anything but skim through the first page if I was having luck with any other deck. I'm learning though. Also, the two Vintage players in my immediate area seem to be focusing on other formats, Standard and Commander respectively. This is a good time to read where normally I would be playing.

[magus888]

Back in the day I used to pilot this deck into a lot of top 4s in New England. To me, it was the answer to Slaver and all Gifts-based decks. This was before Wizards decided to go crazy with blue restrictions. The format had already adjusted to Gifts IMHO, but that's old news. Mindcensor and Trinket Mage for Tormod's Crypt was just amazing during that era.

[Smmenen]

Roughly 11 years ago, Darren Di Battista observed a curious trend in Type I, which was that Control decks were increasingly including a "combo finish." Instead a finisher that took 4-5 turns to win the game, like Morphling, they were shifting to threats like Psychatog + Berserk, that could win in a single turn.

The dominant trend manifest in the format right now is strategic role duality and flexibility.  Not only are most of the top strategies in Vintage right now hybrid decks, but they are capable of playing multiple roles well.  Decks that are less flexible -- focused combo or focused control decks (even Dredge Aggro decks) -- are falling by the wayside in favor of seemingly 'weaker' hybrid strategies like blue angels and decks like this.  In a sense, Workshops also embody this duality, since they shift between aggro and control roles so effortlessly.  

Decks that are role flexible can exploit situations by adopting the optimal role.  Decks like Bomberman can play all three basic strategic modes in Magic (and each correlate role), which is pretty awesome if you are a good player that can suss out the optimal role in any given board state.  

[magus888]

Decks that are role flexible can exploit situations by adopting the optimal role.  Decks like Bomberman can play all three basic strategic modes in Magic (and each correlate role), which is pretty awesome if you are a good player that can suss out the optimal role in any given board state.  

Which is why I play Miracles in legacy!

[xouman]

Decks that are role flexible can exploit situations by adopting the optimal role.  Decks like Bomberman can play all three basic strategic modes in Magic (and each correlate role), which is pretty awesome if you are a good player that can suss out the optimal role in any given board state.  

Which is why I play Miracles in legacy!

Isn't miracles much more control oriented than bomberman? Bomberman and grixis are imho the most versatile decks (I'm not saying the best ones around). they usually play a control role until they combo (via auriok+lotus, or key+vault), but they also would scrap a good bunch of games just by hitting with bears if they can hit several times. Besides, it's quite viable to build a bomberman deck biased to any of the three approaches, specially after adding black.

[magus888]

4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Mana Drain
3 Thirst for knowledge
2 Cunning Wish
2 Repeal
3 Trinket Mage
2 Salvagers
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
8 SoLoMoxCrpyt
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Eningeered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Tundras
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

This is about how I ran Bomberman. I'd say that's a bunch of control, especially with the Trinket Mage toolbox.

I don't know what Bomberman looks like now because I haven't played Vintage since the restrictions, but I bet it looks like this?

3 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Flusterstorm
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Echoing Truth
2 Jace the Mindsculpter
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Salvagers
2 Trinket Mage
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
8 SoLoMoxCrypt
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Tundras
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
5 Island
1 Plains
1 Tolarian Academy

[MTGFan]

As a an aggro-control player, Bomberman is one of the tougher decks to play against because it can win from various angles. Diversifying its threats is the key to its success and one of the primary reasons to play this deck.

[magus888]

I just returned to these boards yesterday and from what I've been reading, things seem a little off. People seem to be really greedy and talk about Jace the Mindsculpter like he's a draw engine! He's downright not. He's a win condition! He is in legacy at least! 

I think Jace just adds to the diversity of this deck's win conditions.

1. Combo
2. Slow creature grind with control backup
3. Control opponent's draws then -12 Jace them.

[MasamuneK]

With all the attention that Blue Angel have now with or without Spirit of the Labyrinth. Not so much talk about Bomberman.
I still think it s a good deck and tinker with Pithing needle and cage main and tutorable seems awesome with so many oath around.

Could someone point me to a primer on it, I just found the 6 years old one on eternal central?

There seems to have been some bomberman at NYCE but none did well. Best was Josh Mekes with 12 points (with stoneforge in SB).

Do any of you have a list that has been doing well for them recently?

[Chubby Rain]

With all the attention that Blue Angel have now with or without Spirit of the Labyrinth. Not so much talk about Bomberman.
I still think it s a good deck and tinker with Pithing needle and cage main and tutorable seems awesome with so many oath around.

Could someone point me to a primer on it, I just found the 6 years old one on eternal central?

There seems to have been some bomberman at NYCE but none did well. Best was Josh Mekes with 12 points (with stoneforge in SB).

Do any of you have a list that has been doing well for them recently?

The best person for this would be Justin Kohler but last I checked he has no interest in writing a primer. I might be able to put together a short one for you later tonight-tomorrow as I have the day off. The deck is still quite good though the "Bomberman" part of it has morphed into primarily winning with creatures.

[MasamuneK]

The best person for this would be Justin Kohler but last I checked he has no interest in writing a primer. I might be able to put together a short one for you later tonight-tomorrow as I have the day off. The deck is still quite good though the "Bomberman" part of it has morphed into primarily winning with creatures.

Thanks Chubby, I saw Justin list at NYSE, 3-4 it seems. 0 salvagers in it and 1 magus of the future.
Don't waste your free time for this, but if you have a nice working list, it would be welcome

[xouman]

I did 3-1 several weeks ago with this list

Maindeck:
 3 Cavern of Souls
 3 Flooded Strand
 1 Island
 1 Library of Alexandria
 1 Plains
 3 Polluted Delta
 1 Tolarian Academy
 2 Tundra
 2 Underground Sea
 3 Auriok Salvagers
 4 Dark Confidant
 1 Snapcaster Mage
 4 Trinket Mage
 1 Æther Spellbomb
 1 Ancestral Recall
 1 Black Lotus
 1 Brainstorm
 1 Demonic Tutor
 1 Engineered Explosives
 4 Force of Will
 1 Mana Crypt
 1 Mana Drain
 3 Mental Misstep
 1 Mox Emerald
 1 Mox Jet
 1 Mox Pearl
 1 Mox Ruby
 1 Mox Sapphire
 1 Nihil Spellbomb
 1 Repeal
 2 Sensei's Divining Top
 1 Sol Ring
 2 Swords to Plowshares
 1 Thirst of knowledge
 1 Time Vault
 1 Time Walk
 1 Voltaic Key

 Sideboard:
 2 Kataki, War's Wage
 2 Notion Thief
 1 True Believer
 2 Disenchant
 1 Engineered Explosives
 1 Flusterstorm
 2 Grafdigger's Cage
 1 Meekstone/pithing needle (could not remember)
 1 Nihil Spellbomb
 1 Steel Sabotage
 1 Swords to Plowshares


The list is far from optimum, but I chose to include vault+key for the oops factor, and resilience to spheres/grave. Very low on countermagic (oath is not at its peak here), the plan is to combo quickly or get good advantage with creatures. If you expect stony silence in your meta, add snares or increase disenchants.

[Anusien]

A Grey Ogre used to be an effective threat in Vintage. With the rise of Delver of Secrets, Monastery Mentor and Young Pyromancer, it isn't that any longer. You can't count on effectively pressuring (or defending) Planeswalkers, and I have a hard time imagining actually having a successful aggro plan with just 2 power attackers.

While I think the card Auriok Salvagers is pretty good right now, I am pretty sure the card Trinket Mage is worse than it's ever been.

[Ten-Ten]

A Grey Ogre used to be an effective threat in Vintage. With the rise of Delver of Secrets, Monastery Mentor and Young Pyromancer, it isn't that any longer. You can't count on effectively pressuring (or defending) Planeswalkers, and I have a hard time imagining actually having a successful aggro plan with just 2 power attackers.

While I think the card Auriok Salvagers is pretty good right now, I am pretty sure the card Trinket Mage is worse than it's ever been.

How so? Engineered explosives is still a card. That's the beauty of trinket mage, the toolbox should always be modified to the metagame.

Potucek actually made top 4 with  this beauty : http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47041.0
Pyrite spellbomb is actually better than Aether spellbomb in the current meta. A simple change goes a long way.
Not to mention Dack Fayden speeding this deck up a bit.

[xouman]

In fact mentor has decreased speed a bit, and while it's quite quick once in play, it still grants a couple of turns most of the time. Bomberman can win on the spot, can play uncounterable creatures with cavern and lotus is recoverable even if countered.

Trinket is not a grey ogre, is a expensive demonic tutor that allows chumpblocking, trades with piromancers, factories, non prowessed mentors (yes, it happens), snapcasters... While I agree it's not at its peak, it's still viable.

[Anusien]

If all Trinket Mage does is trade with a creature or gain you three life, and also find Black Lotus or a card like that, I still don't think I want to play with that card.

Don't get me wrong; I love Bomberman. And I've won multiple pieces of power with it. I used to get about a third of my wins with Salvagers combo, a third with Trinket Mage beats, and a third with Tinket->Robot. And two of those plans just seem worse than what everyone else is doing in the format.

Also a large part of the power of Trinket Mage->Black Lotus was casting either something like Gifts Ungiven or Mana Drain, and I'm not sure how good either of those cards are.

[xouman]

If you don't want to play with something that trades with a creature while fetching for lotus, removal, win condition or more, is of course your opinion, but I love the card. I have to confess that I won far less than 33% of matches attacking with him, but coupled with cavern means an uncounterable kind of demonic tutor.

Probably you approach was more control oriented, so we can have very different points of view on his role in bomberman...

[Ten-Ten]

The question is, how many trinket mage and salvagers are correct in the current paper magic meta. Does Monastery mentor play well in the Bomberman shell?

[Colin]

The question is, how many trinket mage and salvagers are correct in the current paper magic meta. Does Monastery mentor play well in the Bomberman shell?

I just played in the NYSE and took 11th with Bomberman/Mentor.  I played 4 trinket, 2 mentor, 2 snap, 1 salvager.  4 trinkets was awesome, snapcaster was great/ok all day, 2 mentors was the right number for my build and 1 salvager was perfect.  Mentor and salvagers makes for lots of tokens and mentor gives you fight without combo.  My losses on the day were not even games and were to miserable mulligans, which seems to be a things with bomberman. 

I personally think I need find 1 more space for a playable draw spell.  Like thirst or gush.

[Bill Copes]

The question is, how many trinket mage and salvagers are correct in the current paper magic meta. Does Monastery mentor play well in the Bomberman shell?

I just played in the NYSE and took 11th with Bomberman/Mentor.  I played 4 trinket, 2 mentor, 2 snap, 1 salvager.  4 trinkets was awesome, snapcaster was great/ok all day, 2 mentors was the right number for my build and 1 salvager was perfect.  Mentor and salvagers makes for lots of tokens and mentor gives you fight without combo.  My losses on the day were not even games and were to miserable mulligans, which seems to be a things with bomberman. 

I personally think I need find 1 more space for a playable draw spell.  Like thirst or gush.

Congrats!  Looking forward to seeing the full list.

[xouman]

I got a top 1 month ago with this

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17182&iddeck=129000

Lost against mentors (mainly because of the skill difference) and got kicked in the top by ur delver, under massive CA. I'm not really happy and probably would try 2 mentors for the canonists and drop 1 misdi for removal/draw.

[jyuj]

In a sense, Workshops also embody this duality, since they shift between aggro and control roles so effortlessly.  

 News to me. Would love a few more words on this!

[Ritter]

I piloted Esper Bomberman to 6th at the NYSE. I won't go through the whole list since its already posted over in that thread, but my build is an intentional balance of cheap threats that provide card advantage while threatening to go infinite at any moment. Aside from a singleton Snapcaster, each creature gets me closer to comboing while applying very relevant life total pressure.

Over the course of the event, many games were won by a turn 2 Tasigur with counter backup that just beat for 4 while the deck always threatened to go infinite. Other games started land into Crypt and Trinket Mage to get Lotus to play another Trinket Mage for a Top, which just buried opponents in card advantage and pressure. The deck had so many lines and angles of attack that most of my opponents simply didn't know which cards were going to eventually kill them.

Sideboarded games were a whole different set of problems for my opponents. I saw many games of heavy graveyard hate end with a single beater going the distance. Often my opponents afterward would admit they just had nothing else to bring in and didn't expect to get attacked to death.

My list had been a work in progress for many months and I couldn't have been happier with my maindeck 60.