You Make The Card 4 - Design A Magic Card For Vintage

[tribet]

Urza's Workshop
Legendary Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool for each artifact target opponent controls.

... and this mana may not be used to cast Instant or Sorcery spells."

I like the flavour very much.

[Stormanimagus]

I voted Land.

It seems that Land is overwhelmingly getting the majority of votes in this thread.  Also, I fully believe that Steve does not believe anything other than Sorcery/Instant is a wasted vote.  Quite the contrary, he HOPES sorcery instant will win, and by saying nothing else has a chance, he is drawing votes to his spell of choice.  It's a common political trick by a master politician.

To appease Smemmy as well as just make an awesome card, I propose a card as such...

Mage's Path

Land

Tap, pay 1 life: Add 1 to your mana pool.  If this mana is used to cast a spell, spells and abilities cannot alter the spell's casting cost.

Would be a great tool to fight through shops, while also allowing shops to play through its own spheres.  Fair to all archetypes, but will be a 4 of that negates all spheres.

Hopefully, without treading on any impermissible ground here, let me just clarify that I would very much like Land to win.  I may have come accross as anti-land or even anti-enchantment.  Nothing could be further from the truth. 

My goal is to make sure creature does not win.  I was trying to mobilize folks to vote for the card that I thought at the time had the best chance to defeat creature.  That's why I was pushing for instant/sorcery.

My fear is that creature will get the most votes, and my view is that the least likely Vintage playable is probably anything created under the creature card type.  As a community, therefore, I was trying to push for something that I thought could best beat Creature.  But if Land is the best shot to defeat creature, let's go for it!

Here's my suggested land:

Urza's Workshop
Legendary Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool for each artifact target opponent controls.

That would be an amazing answer to Workshop decks, no?

Stephen, on what basis is creature going to be any less playable than any of the other card types? You see, to me that seems as baseless as my claims were in the post you lambasted me for. I was going on gut, trends I've been seeing in how wizards tacks on power to cards or neuters power before they take a theoretical card and put it to print. They often talk about earlier versions of instants/sorceries that were more powerful and then they make them +1 cmc at the last minute cause they are afraid of power level. They've also done the same for creatures I realize, but I happen to think that a creature that is overcosted by 1 mana is more likely to break into the Vintage scene than a comparable instant/sorcery since that instant/sorcery will be competing with a slew of the most powerful engine/answer cards ever printed (Ancestral, Walk, Brainstorm, Ritual and then cards you've mentioned already like Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, Hurkyl's Recall etc.)

I think recent history is on my side in this argument Steve. Let's examine the cards in the past 3-4 years that have seen play in Vintage. Some have even been staples of certain decks or helped to create new decks:

1. Qasali Pridemage
2. Lodestone Golem
3. Snapcaster Mage
4. Delver of Secrets
5. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
6. Noble Hierarch
7. Phyrexian Metamorph
8. Phyrexian Revoker
9. Deathrite Shaman (the Jury may still be out on this guy admittedly)
10. Leonin Relic-Warder
11. Leonin Arbiter
12. Stoneforge Mystic
13. Giest of Saint Traft
14. Scavenging Ooze

and to a lesser extent perhaps:

1. Mayor of Avabruck (Very recent obviously)

I'm sure there are many more I'm forgetting, but you get the idea. It really boils down to this for me:

I have a gut feeling that Wizards is more likely to print a creature with relevant stats on it than a sorcery or instant or even land. The only other card type I'd even consider is enchantment personally and it would be sweet if it was a new leyline cause then my leyline deck might be a thing .

I hope this explanation helps you understand my thinking on this Steve. I can't really prove my stance on this other than the fact that I've seen many good Vintage creatures printed in the past couple years and there seems to be a definite dearth of relevant instants/sorceries. I don't trust R & D's track record on power level OR utility with instants/sorceries and I think we've reached a sort of critical mass on utility ones anyway.

That's my 2 cents

-Storm

[tribet]

and they even printed some overcosted Tunas such as Griselbrand, Emrakul and Blightsteel Colossus. How dare they?!

[Smmenen]

Where's Lab Maniac on your list?  Or Grisel?  

It's not that they can't print playable Vintage creatures, but if you look at the best Vintage non-artifact creatures: Bob, Snapcaster, Goyf, Delver, etc. those creatures are just as powerful, if not more so, in other formats as Vintage.   Noble Hierarch and Deathrite Shaman illustrate this as well.  Therefore, the chance of creating an overpowered non-Vintage creature in trying to make a playable Vintage creature is much higher than for other spells, where you could have useful Vintage cards that are fair in other format.

A very specific example of this is artifacts.  You can print up to a 6cc artifact that will be playable in Vintage because of Shop.   Therefore, it's possible to make a card that isn't too good in Standard, but quite good in Vintage ala Trinisphere or Golem.  

It's also the case that, among all the card types, creatures are generally the weakest in vintage (along with Enchantments).

That's why I believe creatures offer the least possibility for Vintage playable.  It's not that they can't make a playable vintage card with the card type 'creature' with YMTC, I just think it offers the least hope of one.   Kevin and I discussed this in our podcast we recorded tonight, and he agrees.

[tribet]

It's also the case that, among all the card types, creatures are generally the weakest in vintage (along with Enchantments).

Don't people play Stony Silence over Null Rod for the exact opposite reason?

I've always been preparing for Graveyard and Artos. I'm following the wrong trend...

[DubDub]

It's not that they can't print playable Vintage creatures, but if you look at the best Vintage non-artifact creatures: Bob, Snapcaster, Goyf, Delver, etc. those creatures are just as powerful, if not more so, in other formats as Vintage.  

I don't think the above provides support for the below.

Therefore, the chance of creating an overpowered non-Vintage creature in trying to make a playable Vintage creature is much higher than for other spells, where you could have useful Vintage cards that are fair in other format.

What examples are there of this "an overpowered non-Vintage creature [that is] a playable Vintage creature"?  Does your threshold for "overpowered non-Vintage creature" not equate to 'creature banned in non-Vintage formats'?

There don't appear to me to be any creatures banned in non-Vintage formats that are playable in Vintage:
-Griselbrand's ban in EDH I wouldn't count, let's just look at Standard/Modern/Legacy
-Standard doesn't have any cards banned at the moment.
-Modern's banned creatures are:
  a. Bloodbraid Elf - not Vintage playable
  b. Golgari Grave Troll - banned for having Dredge keyword, not for creatureness
  c. Stoneforge Mystic - debatably playable in Vintage, banned in Modern for debatable reasons
  d. Wild Nacatl - not Vintage playable
-Legacy's banned creatures are:
  a. Goblin Recruiter - not Vintage playable
  b. Hermit Druid - banned for being a combo-piece, not for creatureness, also only fringe playable in Vintage
  c. Worldgorger Dragon - banned for being a combo-piece, not for creatureness, also only fringe playable in Vintage

And if the threshold for "overpowered" isn't that the creature got banned in Legacy/Modern/Standard, then what's the problem?  Those formats already revolve around creatures and creature combat (by concerted design of WotC), what difference does it make if they instead revolve around a new YMTC creature?

In contrast, Mental Misstep is a playable Vintage spell that DID completely break Legacy and got itself banned, and it's also banned in Modern, so... I would think they'd be more gunshy about instants/sorceries.  Would you contest that assertion?

A very specific example of this is artifacts.  You can print up to a 6cc artifact that will be playable in Vintage because of Shop.   Therefore, it's possible to make a card that isn't too good in Standard, but quite good in Vintage ala Trinisphere or Golem.  

So shouldn't you be advocating for an Artifact to win, as opposed to a sorcery?  The 'advantage in playability likelihood' is greater for artifacts than instants/sorceries, wouldn't you agree?  Do you think Crucible's existence eliminates the chance of a playable artifact coming from this contest in particular (even if artifacts enjoy an advantage in general)?

It's also the case that, among all the card types, creatures are generally the weakest in vintage (along with Enchantments).

Isn't YMTC a chance to change that?

[Smmenen]

What examples are there of this "an overpowered non-Vintage creature [that is] a playable Vintage creature"?  Does your threshold for "overpowered non-Vintage creature" not equate to 'creature banned in non-Vintage formats'?

Goyf is the perfect example. Playable in Vintage. Overpowered in most other formats.

[xouman]

I'd love to see a 2CC red creature. Something like

Havoc Raiser 1R
Human Shaman
At the beginning of each players upkeep, that player randomly sacrifices a non-basic land permanent. That player loses life equal to that permanent's CC.
2/1

That not seems really powerful but I love that random effect.


Against workshops, they can make a Tablernacle affecting artifacts (not really playable outside vintage)

[DubDub]

What examples are there of this "an overpowered non-Vintage creature [that is] a playable Vintage creature"?  Does your threshold for "overpowered non-Vintage creature" not equate to 'creature banned in non-Vintage formats'?

Goyf is the perfect example. Playable in Vintage. Overpowered in most other formats.

Ok, I contest that Goyf is overpowered in most other formats.  Or at least, that WotC and the DCI doesn't consider it overpowered.  For one thing, they just banned a creature card out of Modern Jund... and it was Bloodbraid Elf.  They banned a creature card from Modern Zoo a while ago... and it was Wild Nacatl.  They're deliberately leaving Goyf in the Modern format.  And in fact they're reprinting it in Modern Masters (right?), which is a tacit statement that the supply is too low and they think more people should have access to it.

Anyway, I've already voted, I don't think marshalling TMD against creature will substantively affect the outcome of the vote, and I'm just going to wait and see.

[brianpk80]

Stephen, I thought I heard something in one of your podcasts about you occasionally communicating with set designers and/or the DCI regarding Vintage.  That being the case, perhaps you can start a discussion here on how to channel this kind of creativity into something practical and concrete.  It's obvious that there's dissatisfaction with at least one aspect the format underscored by how many responses implicate Sphere effects.  But given the other options, campaigning against the dreams of kids and casual players who might want a hand in creating a cool creature in Magic: The Gathering doesn't seem like the right avenue here.   

At any rate, if Land wins, there's always the possibility of another rainbow land whose drawback advances an unusual strategy like Forbidden Orchard and Undiscovered Paradise.  Let's just hope that whatever it is, it doesn't enter the battlefield tapped. 

[Smmenen]

@DubDub: WoTC is on record saying Goyf was a mistake abd that they regret it. It was a last minute substitution in Future Sight and not properly tested.  Also, you can vote as many times as you like on different computers or platforms.  

[vaughnbros]

I'd love to see a 2CC red creature. Something like

Havoc Raiser 1R
Human Shaman
At the beginning of each players upkeep, that player randomly sacrifices a non-basic land permanent. That player loses life equal to that permanent's CC.
2/1

That not seems really powerful but I love that random effect.

I agree I think a red 2 drop on the power level with bob, snapcaster, goyf, and stoneforge would be a great card for all formats of magic.

As much as I would love a random effect it gets quite complicated and land destruction is not an option with Wizards current card printing policy on it.  So I was thinking something more simple like:
Shock Mage 1R
Haste
When Shock Mage enters the battlefield it deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player.
2/1

[DubDub]

@DubDub: WoTC is on record saying Goyf was a mistake abd that they regret it. It was a last minute substitution in Future Sight and not properly tested.

While that's true, they don't regret it to the point of banning it.  Instead they ban Bloodbraid Elf and Wild Nacatl in Modern.  Nor do they regret it to the point of de facto banishment through price (i.e. they're willfully reprinting it, increasing supply and lowering cost).

I mean, most of the cards that are Vintage playable are mistakes.  They make mistakes all the time!  A previous winner of this contest, Crucible, turned out to be a mistake by enabling repeatable land destruction, the direct opposite of the reason for which it was made.

In the recent past, and in the (at least) near-future, they have greater tolerance for powerful creatures than powerful spells.  They're tacking more spell/artifact/enchantment-like effects onto creatures.  In the quite unlikely event a Vintage-playable card emerges from this contest, I would think the card more likely to be a creature than an instant or sorcery.

[Smmenen]

@DubDub: WoTC is on record saying Goyf was a mistake abd that they regret it. It was a last minute substitution in Future Sight and not properly tested.

While that's true, they don't regret it to the point of banning it.  Instead they ban Bloodbraid Elf and Wild Nacatl in Modern.  

A card does not have to rise to the level of being banned to be overpowered.  Goyf is the archetypical example of how a playable Vintage card is overpowered in other formats.

[vaughnbros]

@DubDub: WoTC is on record saying Goyf was a mistake abd that they regret it. It was a last minute substitution in Future Sight and not properly tested.

While that's true, they don't regret it to the point of banning it.  Instead they ban Bloodbraid Elf and Wild Nacatl in Modern.  

A card does not have to rise to the level of being banned to be overpowered.  Goyf is the archetypical example of how a playable Vintage card is overpowered in other formats.

Have you seen how extensive the modern banned list is?  I think we can safely assume that if a card isn't banned in that format it is not overpowered.  At least by wizards standards.

[Smmenen]

@DubDub: WoTC is on record saying Goyf was a mistake abd that they regret it. It was a last minute substitution in Future Sight and not properly tested.

While that's true, they don't regret it to the point of banning it.  Instead they ban Bloodbraid Elf and Wild Nacatl in Modern.  

A card does not have to rise to the level of being banned to be overpowered.  Goyf is the archetypical example of how a playable Vintage card is overpowered in other formats.

Have you seen how extensive the modern banned list is?  I think we can safely assume that if a card isn't banned in that format it is not overpowered.  At least by wizards standards.

The modern banned list is based on very specific criteria, like not winning before turn 4.  Also, Goyf was way over powered in Standard, but rotated out.  It's also been, at times, the subject of banning discussions in Legacy.

[vaughnbros]

@DubDub: WoTC is on record saying Goyf was a mistake abd that they regret it. It was a last minute substitution in Future Sight and not properly tested.

While that's true, they don't regret it to the point of banning it.  Instead they ban Bloodbraid Elf and Wild Nacatl in Modern.  

A card does not have to rise to the level of being banned to be overpowered.  Goyf is the archetypical example of how a playable Vintage card is overpowered in other formats.

Have you seen how extensive the modern banned list is?  I think we can safely assume that if a card isn't banned in that format it is not overpowered.  At least by wizards standards.

The modern banned list is based on very specific criteria, like not winning before turn 4.  Also, Goyf was way over powered in Standard, but rotated out.  It's also been, at times, the subject of banning discussions in Legacy.

Except that 8 of the 30 cards on the banned list don't follow this criteria.  I mean really explain to me how any of the following helping you win by turn 4? Ancestral visions, bitterblossoom, misstep, Jace, bloodbraid elf, green sun, punishing fire, and umezawa's jitte.  Goyf barely affected standard when he was there.  Faeries dominated him.

[Smmenen]

There were many discussions about banning Goyf. Goyf has had seriosly deliberations for being banned in almost every non-Vintage format it's been played.  

See:
* http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7893-Ban-Tarmogoyf
* ttp://kirblar024.wordpress.com/2011/05/29/the-modern-banlist-why-tarmogoyf-must-go/
* http://tappedout.net/mtg-questions/should-tarmogoyf-be-banned-in-modern/
* http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=18517

 It seems possible that they chose Nacatl instead of Goyf in order to not destroy people's monetary investment in Goyf.  But in any case, not being banned in Modern does not indicate that the card is not over powered.  There are reasons a card may not be banned and yet still be ovepowered.   The fact that it has always been a serious candidate suggests it is overpowered, even if they never actually banned it.  

My sense is that creatures that are played in Vintage are almost invariably better in non-Vintage formats, and that's scary.  That's not true of other cards to the same extent. 

[Norm4eva]

I feel like a lot of the discussion around banning Goyf has cooled down in Legacy, because of that whole "aww shucks, it's just vanilla" argument.  That and the meta has a reasonable hoser in Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay; two spells that answer Goyf, both directly and indirectly.  Kind of the hotness right now.

Honestly I think more Legacy players fear, like, Thalia or Delver.  Cheap creatures with either evasion or a rule-changing effect.

Personally, I voted for Artifact at work and Enchantment at home.  I really don't know why I do anything, so that's just the thing I did.  It will probably be Creature anyway, but I did not vote for Creature.

[tribet]

They're tacking more spell/artifact/enchantment-like effects onto creatures.  

Once you've covered the whole range of 1/1, 2/2, 3/3,..., Flying, Trample, .... you are quickly limited. So that's indeed half the problem: they now overload Creatures and Planeswalkers with 20 abilities to make them appealing.

The other half of the problem is that when you're given a powerful effect on a body, it becomes very hard not to incorporate it into a deck since it is helping one of your win-con: dealing damages and it's giving you virtual card advantage (the 2 for 1 thingy). I really don't think players have a greater emotional attachment to creatures, they are just pushed in that direction.

For Creatures, maybe Wizard R&D should focuss on developping more tribes, tribal stuff/mechanics and flavours for a while.

Personnally, I always had a crush for Enchantress decks. I rate Argothian Enchantress so much higher than Bob and Snapcaster and not only because of the art. Not mentioning cards like: Oath of Druids, Fastbond, Necro, Bargain,... other cards such as Replenish, Serra's Sanctum, Gaea's Touch, Exploration make me dream and they are not played enough to my liking.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Glad to hear you are just against one type and not for ONLY one type.  Honestly, I think land would be the best for vintage, as it could fit in almost any deck.  Seems that colorless with a good ability is what most are suggesting.  Makes it very universal.  Could be good in any deck in any format.  I don't think the land should specifically gun at shops, but should give a great answer to general prison/counter strategies.  Maybe a land that taps for 0, but making target spell unaffected by cost changers and untargetable by spells and effects.  Would be playable everywhere without being too broken or crushing to any one archetype.  The reverse tolarian academy you suggested would be nutso broken.  Not only would it make shops unable to defend against squat for 1 turn (except for running the card itself), but would basically give every deck an uberworkshop in most cases.  Your opponent could just drop 3 moxen, and now you get just as much mana every turn in 1 card.  That's a bit too broken.

But yes, Land seems the best bet to beat creatures or any other type.  I think it's the best option for a usable card anyway.  Also, WotC made 1 artifact, 1 sorcery, and 1 creature already - so Land would keep them from milling out a single card type more than others.

[DubDub]

My sense is that creatures that are played in Vintage are almost invariably better in non-Vintage formats, and that's scary.

I stipulate to Goyf, Bob, and Snapcaster Mage being examples of being better in non-Vintage than Vintage, and some other cards too.  But INVARIABLY?

I mean, I'm assuming you're excluding artifact creatures from that statement, because Lodestone Golem is a powerhouse in Vintage and is barely (or not at all) played elsewhere.

Trygon Predator and Goblin Welder are also significantly better in Vintage than elsewhere because we have the best artifacts and enchantments, so I can't get on board with:
Vintage playable creature is by definition overpowered elsewhere.

Goyf and Bob are so good ON THEIR OWN, that they fit what you're claiming, but Vintage is defined by having the very best artifacts/lands/spells/enchantments etc. not available elsewhere.  Something that positively interacts with artifacts (or negatively with the opponents) is better for us than elsewhere (i.e. Goblin Welder).  Same with something that gets you Workshop or Academy or Strip Mine (or lets you recur it... like Crucible).  Something that lets you cast Ancestral Recall/Gush more quickly or repeatedly is better for us than elsewhere (Merchant Scroll or Regrowth, etc).

So, it seems like lots of people, if creature is the type, want a 2CC Red card.  How do we make it good all around, and best in Vintage?

Spellswapper  1R
Haste
T: Reveal your hand, then reveal the same number of cards from the top of your library.  You may exchange an instant or sorcery spell from your hand with an instant or sorcery spell among the cards revealed from your library. Then put the revealed cards on the bottom of your library in any order.
2/1

This is pretty good everywhere, but especially good in Vintage where it could look five deep for Force/Demonic/Ancestral on turn one.  Maybe it's still too good in Legacy, searching out Show and Tell and Force and Reanimate, but you get the point.

[Wagner]

Spellswapper  1R
Haste
T: Reveal your hand, then reveal the same number of cards from the top of your library.  You may exchange an instant or sorcery spell from your hand with an instant or sorcery spell among the cards revealed from your library. Then put the revealed cards on the bottom of your library in any order.
2/1

This wording makes you also put all cards in your hand on the bottom of your library

This would most likely be overpowered though. Remove haste or give it an activation cost. Having this on board in a control deck would make it just brutal and mostly impossible to get rid of. Also, I don't think a way to get Tinker, Will and Recall more easily is a good thing.

[xouman]

A reverse Tolarian does not seem overpowered for me. Yes, if you play against power (specially mud, if it's not wasted) it would be great, but not great as their own tolaria. what about if you play against fish/dredge? dead. and if you had it in your opener? if you play it, opponent could keep any moxen. besides, in other formats it would be terrible. it could be very powerful on paper, but it seems a very bad tolaria.

What about an enchantment similar to teferi's realm, saying something like "all permanents have phasing"? This one seems really broken in non-vintage environments (could you imagine snapcasters entering the battlefield all the time?). It should have at least CC , if not more costly.

What about a sorcery for   that does: look at opponent's hand and discard all artifacts. you lose 2 life for each artifact discarded that way.

It's quite broken against mud, but soft against other archetypes and just crap in other formats (other than sb against affinity).




A land that taps for  and has {Tap}: play target spell with cost X from your hand. play this ability any time you can play a sorcery.

This is probably the most elegant way to dodge chalices and spheres, and it's also relevant against counterspells and colour mana hosers. Now I can't find utility in non eternal formats, but maybe it has.


Recovering my idea of a good   critter:

shock mage
when a mountain comes into play under your control, shock mage does 3 damage to you.
,sacrifice a mountain: shock mage does 3 damage to target opponent or creature.
2/2

it seems worse than confidant, tarmo, or snapcaster. i first thought of it doing 2 damage, but it would look worse than lavamancer or jaya ballard.

[John Cox]

A land that taps for  and has {Tap}: play target spell with cost X from your hand. play this ability any time you can play a sorcery.

This is probably the most elegant way to dodge chalices and spheres, and it's also relevant against counterspells and colour mana hosers. Now I can't find utility in non eternal formats, but maybe it has.

This is quite good, I can play necropotence ( )off a mana vault or sol ring + land( ) Workshops (especially Martello) would love this card, both to get around their own spheres but also to cast things like Welder.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Here's a cute idea for a land that hoses linear strategies:

IRS - Progressive Taxation
Land
As ~ ETB, choose a spell type. Spells of the chosen type cost an additional to play where X is the number of tax counters on ~.
Whenever a spell of the chosen type is cast, put a tax counter on ~.
, remove all tax counters from ~: Add to your mana pool where X is the number of tax counters removed ~.

[DubDub]

Spellswapper  1R
Haste
T: Reveal your hand, then reveal the same number of cards from the top of your library.  You may exchange an instant or sorcery spell from your hand with an instant or sorcery spell among the cards revealed from your library. Then put the revealed cards on the bottom of your library in any order.
2/1

This wording makes you also put all cards in your hand on the bottom of your library

This would most likely be overpowered though. Remove haste or give it an activation cost. Having this on board in a control deck would make it just brutal and mostly impossible to get rid of. Also, I don't think a way to get Tinker, Will and Recall more easily is a good thing.

Yeah, I know it does.  I wasn't patient enough to fix it. 

Add red to the activation cost to adjust power level.  Instead of searching the top X cards, with the X equal to the number of cards in your hand, could just search three cards always, that would also lower the power level.

[Smmenen]

Regardless of your preferences, everyone should go ahead and VOTE in the time remaining.  That's the most important thing.   Vote as many times as you can!

[Wagner]

Regardless of your preferences, everyone should go ahead and VOTE in the time remaining.  That's the most important thing.   Vote as many times as you can!

I get that voting is important, but why is voting many times so important to you? Will Wizards send a free card to everyone who voted? Will they cancel the contest if they don't get X votes?

I guess I'm just not that invested in skewing results. They asked what type I wanted, I told them, once. That's plenty for me.

[Smmenen]

I would like the Vintage community to have a larger voice in WOTC Marketing events like this.  I also believe that we vote differently than other segments of the Magic community, both because of our preferences with respect to the format we play and because of our age (the average age of the Vintage player is probably close to 30 now). 

I have voted 3 times (on my Ipad, Iphone, and laptop).  I encourage others to do the same.