You Make The Card 4 - Design A Magic Card For Vintage

[Stormanimagus]

Could making it do 3 or 4 make it fair? I mean, they can just dump moxen into it, and remember, none of the spells are countered like with decree, so they will eventually resolve.

-Storm

Making it 3 spells would be interesting.  I've never heard of anything quite like this Freeze mechanic; I think it's very original.  I wouldn't be too concerned with whether or not it's considered "fair" for Vintage.  There's this odd inconsistency we find sometimes where an 2-CC artifact that untaps to win the game and an 11/11 Trample, Infect, Indestructible for 2U are perfectly acceptable but a small creature that could help preempt those tactics is considered uber broken and "unfair." Projection, perhaps.  

QFT.

I think that 3 or even 4 could be fair, but I'd have to gauge that against how 3 vs. 4 would make it in other formats. Also, just a little explanation for the reversing the stack thing. I think it would lose a lot of its potency if a player could just trigger the stack resolving with a force to be able to force whatever good thing YOU put on the stack. I would have to find a way to word this though so a player could throw a force on the stack without a target cause this basically negates counter magic the way I've set up the ability thus far. Since, by definition, a counterspell can only target something already on the stack and that spell will resolve before the counterspell, this could make blue players pretty darn mad. Who knows, maybe the mechanic as is is just perfect!

-Storm

[Stormanimagus]

I had a thought. What if we upped it to 4 but expanded the rule to include non-mana activated abilities? Did I just blow your mind? DID I?

For those who haven't been following here's what it would look like now with that new addition.


Timefreeze         /

Enchantment

Split Second

Whenever a player casts a spell, or activates a non-mana ability that spell/ability remains on the stack until the stack contains 4 spells/abilities. When it does, resolve the stack in reverse order (the last spell cast is the last spell to resolve.)


Would this make the card broken? Worse? Could we throw triggers into the mix just to confuse folks? MUAHAHAHAHHA!


-Storm

[DubDub]

It would take extensive rules modifications to allow play to continue from step-to-step and phase-to-phase and turn-to-turn with spells 'frozen' on the stack.

I think a far cleaner way to implement it would be similar to the following (a riff on Knowledge Pool and Eureka):

Whenever a player casts a spell from his or her hand, that player exiles it.

Whenever 4 or more cards have been exiled by ~, sacrifice ~, if you do then starting with you, each player may cast a spell card exiled by ~.  Repeat this process until no one casts a spell card exiled by ~.
(This triggered ability ignores timing rules during resolution.  Players may choose new targets as they cast the spells from exile.)

So, here's a potential line of play with ~ in play (owned by Player #1):

P#1: Dark Confidant.
~ Trigger
Confidant exiled from stack.

P#2: Vendilion Clique.
~ Trigger
Clique exiled from stack.

P#1: Tarmogoyf.
~ Trigger.
P#2: Response, Force.
~ Trigger.
Force exiled from stack.
Tarmogoyf exiled from stack.

~ Sac/Play Trigger.
~ Sacrificed and "Spell Eureka begins"
P#1 casts Tarmogoyf from exile.
P#2 casts Vendilion Clique from exile.
P#1 passes.
P#2 casts Force of Will from exile, targeting Tarmogoyf.
P#1 casts Dark Confidant from exile.
P#2 passes.
P#1 passes.
P#2 passes.
"Spell Eureka" ends, resolve stack as normal (or players can add to the stack as is before continued resolution).

If nothing else happens, Confidant and Clique will resolve.

A particular advantage of this approach is that it completely avoids using the word stack, which they desperately try to do.

Edit: Just saw you expanded it to non-mana activated abilities, which I'm not going to address.  I think you should stick to affecting spell 'cards' so that there isn't a huge mess of missed-triggers caused.  You can SEE which cards have been exiled, and it's easy to count them.

Edit2: I do think this card is unfair.  A landstill deck, or aggro deck with creatures down already, isn't going to play spells at all, so the opponent has to come up with four spells in a row before addressing the board state.

Imagine in Legacy:
T1 Delver.
Opponent nothing relevant.
T2, flip Delver, this protected by Daze+Force.  Swing for 3.
Opponent adds two spells.  Swing for 3.
Opponent adds a spell.  Swing for 3.
Opponent whiffs, holding only land/countermagic.  Swing for 3.
Opponent finally casts a fourth spell.  All four come off the stack, and two get countered by Delver's controller, etc.

I mean, in a tempo type strategy I would argue that (as in my post, if exiling four spells before doing anything), this is BETTER than Time Walk.  Sure, you don't want to cast additional threats, but you can Wasteland your opponent to delay them further, all while some undercosted beater is getting in for 3+ a turn.  And with Aether Vial it's a beating.

[Stormanimagus]

All right, well you may be right. Landstill could probably abuse the shit out of such a card.

If people are putting their two cents in on a hate card, here's one that seems pretty saucy:


Sterling Oaks        

Enchantment

Non-land permanents cannot enter the battlefield unless their casting cost was paid.

Lands cannot enter the battlefield except from player's hands.

Spells cannot go on the stack except from players hands.


3 abilities may be one too many but I could see this having an impact in many formats.

-Storm

[TheWhiteDragon]

All right, well you may be right. Landstill could probably abuse the shit out of such a card.

If people are putting their two cents in on a hate card, here's one that seems pretty saucy:


Sterling Oaks        

Enchantment

Non-land permanents cannot enter the battlefield unless their casting cost was paid.

Lands cannot enter the battlefield except from player's hands.

Spells cannot go on the stack except from players hands.


3 abilities may be one too many but I could see this having an impact in many formats.

-Storm

OR

Cards cannot be played without paying their mana cost.  Cards cannot enter the battlefield except from a players hand.

Two abilities, same effect.

As far as your timefreeze enchantment - manlands.deck would just crush with 4 of these and 4 standstills.  As far as your "everything is uncounterable/no passing priority" enchantment, it basically reads 1 W/G: target combo deck wins the game.

[Zeksagmak]

Urza's Workshop
Legendary Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool for each artifact target opponent controls.

... and this mana may not be used to cast Instant or Sorcery spells."

I like the flavour very much.

I think that tacking on something that makes it count as a rainbow tron land would be neat as well (although it may break modern).  Either choose which tron land to count as when you play it or just give it a tron wildcard ability

[xouman]

That freeze mechanic is pure tempo! make the card too cheap or with lots of  counters and it could be broken. Make it costly or with few counters and it's probably bad. And I would make it following the "first in first out rule", to keep it simple.

[RisingWater]

He's my idea

Un-named

Land

T: add 1

When "un-named" comes into play, name a land.

Activated abilities of named land that are not mana sources cannot be used.



Like pithing needle on a land, that can only target lands. Would be useful against dredge, shops, landstill and any deck would be able to use it.

[Wagner]

All right, well you may be right. Landstill could probably abuse the shit out of such a card.

If people are putting their two cents in on a hate card, here's one that seems pretty saucy:


Sterling Oaks        

Enchantment

Non-land permanents cannot enter the battlefield unless their casting cost was paid.

Lands cannot enter the battlefield except from player's hands.

Spells cannot go on the stack except from players hands.


3 abilities may be one too many but I could see this having an impact in many formats.

-Storm

OR

Cards cannot be played without paying their mana cost.  Cards cannot enter the battlefield except from a players hand.

Two abilities, same effect.

Your version doesn't neuter Storm though. Storm copies are not cards, not played.

[TheWhiteDragon]

True, but it does nueter yawgwill, tinker-jar, and oath-grisel...which basically IS nuetering storm.  It's already a card that hurts/stops every good deck in the format except except for fish (which I think was its creator's point).  No crucible, oath, tinker, dredge, welder, snapcaster, yawgwill, reanimate, show and tell, sneak attack, aether vial to cause trouble...basically makes cheap zoo decks dominant in both vintage and legacy in one cheap card.  And low and behold, it's also the colors of zoo fish decks! What a coincidence!

[psyburat]

In the hopes that land will win, I've been brewing a card that is simple and can appease players of all formats.  Is this too powerful, and who would use it (and in what quantity)?

Resonation Quarry
Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.  This mana doesn't empty from your mana pool as steps and phases end.

[Samoht]

In the hopes that land will win, I've been brewing a card that is simple and can appease players of all formats.  Is this too powerful, and who would use it (and in what quantity)?

Resonation Quarry
Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.  This mana doesn't empty from your mana pool as steps and phases end.

I want the following:

Land
Flash
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.

[Smmenen]

I already suggested my land:

Urza's Workshop
Legendary Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool for each artifact target opponent controls.

[A.-1.]

I already suggested my land:

Urza's Workshop
Legendary Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool for each artifact target opponent controls.

Is there a better way to word that? I feel like Shop players would play Leyline of Sanctity or Witchbane Orb to counteract the proposed card and essentially all of Burning Tendrils (Oath, Hurkyl's, and Tendrils).

[brianpk80]

Resonation Quarry
Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.  This mana doesn't empty from your mana pool as steps and phases end.

This one meets all the criteria.  It's useful, powerful without being broken, and changes a fundamental rule of the game.  I could see it appealing to a wide base of potential votes from all formats.  Nice job.

Sterling Oaks        

Enchantment

Non-land permanents cannot enter the battlefield unless their casting cost was paid.
Lands cannot enter the battlefield except from player's hands.
Spells cannot go on the stack except from players hands.

Although it's very explicit in hosing cheat-into-plays, Crucible of Worlds, and Will/Flashback (with some splash damage to Isochron Scepter & co.), I'm not sure it would be playable.  With no disrespect meant, it looks like a more expensive Grafdigger's Cage whose only advantage is that it can negate Crucible.  It's harder to get rid of but also much more difficult to cast.  

Permeating Conscience

Enchantment
Artifact Creatures cannot attack.
"I cannot do that.  It isn't right." -Karn, Silver Golem

Also, I like the Pithing Needle land.  

[Wagner]

Permeating Conscience

Enchantment
Artifact Creatures cannot attack.
"I cannot do that.  It isn't right." -Karn, Silver Golem

Simple, nice, too narrow for a YMTC though, but I like. It should also include Enchantment creatures, because why not, there is 1 after all

Actually, would making it "Creatures with a super-type other than creature cannot attack"?
It would affect man-lands, artifacts and planeswalkers.

[Stormanimagus]

Resonation Quarry
Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.  This mana doesn't empty from your mana pool as steps and phases end.

This one meets all the criteria.  It's useful, powerful without being broken, and changes a fundamental rule of the game.  I could see it appealing to a wide base of potential votes from all formats.  Nice job.

Sterling Oaks        

Enchantment

Non-land permanents cannot enter the battlefield unless their casting cost was paid.
Lands cannot enter the battlefield except from player's hands.
Spells cannot go on the stack except from players hands.

Although it's very explicit in hosing cheat-into-plays, Crucible of Worlds, and Will/Flashback (with some splash damage to Isochron Scepter & co.), I'm not sure it would be playable.  With no disrespect meant, it looks like a more expensive Grafdigger's Cage whose only advantage is that it can negate Crucible.  It's harder to get rid of but also much more difficult to cast.  

Permeating Conscience

Enchantment
Artifact Creatures cannot attack.
"I cannot do that.  It isn't right." -Karn, Silver Golem

Also, I like the Pithing Needle land.  

No offense Brian, but I don't think your card is that great either. I think that shop players would easily adapt and just go back to lists based on Smokestack and board control you to death. Or they would man-land you to death after sphere locking you.

As to Mike's land I do like it, but I kinda want something a bit more useful. Perhaps you could make it add a mana of any color but deal you 2 damage as well? Perhaps you could make it add colorless or a mana of any color but if it is used for rainbow it can only cast creatures or permanents even?

Just throwing out ideas for slight improvements on the card. I do like it though. Simple. . . effective.

-Storm

[Wagner]

No offense Brian, but I don't think your card is that great either. I think that shop players would easily adapt and just go back to lists based on Smokestack and board control you to death. Or they would man-land you to death after sphere locking you.

Factory is also an artifact creature. They could start using Mutavault I guess.
It wouldn't completely nerf Shops, but it would make Shop players have to decide if they risk running into this card and perhaps chose another build that is currently not the best one, and that alone is a step towards beating shop. Any deck can adapt to any card, Dredge adapted to Leyline, but by doing so it's less streamlined and powerful.

[brianpk80]

No offense Brian, but I don't think your card is that great either. I think that shop players would easily adapt and just go back to lists based on Smokestack and board control you to death. Or they would man-land you to death after sphere locking you.

It's better suited for a full set, as Wagner said.  Keep in mind that the anti-artifact Moat would have a broader application v. Landstill and Tinker-bots, which often have to be dealt with in different ways than Shop artifacts, since BSC is indestructible.  Also, even if Shop players adapted by no longer playing Lodestone Golems (which would be doubtful)... that would be quite an impact.  Given that making cards specifically for Vintage is something more likely to happen in a non-Standard legal expansion than the YMTC, I thought it was an elegant suggestion.  

I like the Leylines you created earlier and I applaud the pro-Fish direction of your submissions.  I'm thinking that over time, the archetype will get stronger as they convert more static effects into creatures as they did with Blood Moon & Thorn of Amythest.  Null Rod, Strangehold, or Suppression Field on a Human would expand the list of auto-includes quite nicely.    

[Guli]

Sacred Sanctuary

Legendary Land

Hexproof

: Add , or to your mana pool.

[Wagner]

Sacred Sanctuary

Legendary Land

Hexproof

: Add , or to your mana pool.

You really do like to put Hexproof on all your cards Guli

Problem I see with this one is that it would be VERY tempting to make this a set, and if you do, then playing 5 color with 2 of each one becomes a bit ridiculous. But if it was kept at only this one, it's pretty sweet design and would fetch a ridiculous price.

[RisingWater]

Artifact

3 colorless

At the beginning of each players upkeep, that player sacrifices a permanent.



Like smokestacks you can't ramp, but one cheaper and a turn faster!

[psyburat]

Sacred Sanctuary

Legendary Land

Hexproof

: Add , or to your mana pool.

I probably wouldn't run this in Noble Fish.  It already runs 6 lands that don't return to cast Daze, and adding yet another one would probably mean cutting Daze, which I believe has a guaranteed spot in the modern build of the deck.  Also, with no land type, it can't be tutored for, unlike basic Forest, which is my anti-LD land of choice at the moment.  Finally, Noble Fish is a Wasteland deck itself, and can already handle opposing Wasteland punishment with a low curve and Fetchlands.  Tailor-made Noble Fish cards are more effective as proactive threats that punish unfair strategies and bring opponents down to your level.  Since your level is Wasteland disruption, protecting against your level, even if other decks use it, is not as important.

UW Bomberman, however, would absolutely run a singleton copy.

[Guli]

Sacred Sanctuary

Legendary Land

Hexproof

: Add , or to your mana pool.

I probably wouldn't run this in Noble Fish.  It already runs 6 lands that don't return to cast Daze, and adding yet another one would probably mean cutting Daze, which I believe has a guaranteed spot in the modern build of the deck.  Also, with no land type, it can't be tutored for, unlike basic Forest, which is my anti-LD land of choice at the moment.  Finally, Noble Fish is a Wasteland deck itself, and can already handle opposing Wasteland punishment with a low curve and Fetchlands.  Tailor-made Noble Fish cards are more effective as proactive threats that punish unfair strategies and bring opponents down to your level.  Since your level is Wasteland disruption, protecting against your level, even if other decks use it, is not as important.

UW Bomberman, however, would absolutely run a singleton copy.

Mana drain decks could also use it against wasteland.dec as a sideboard option.

I gave it legend and hexproof, so the only way to kill it is if both sides run. I thought it would be interesting. It wasn't meant for just noble fish.

Thalia, Bob, Mayor and Noble are the proactive approach you are talking about, a thing we agree on. I know all about it and design in such a way. Best way to fight wastelands is cast cards that make wasteland unattractive, or even turning their wasteland into a wasteland of your own.

Sanctuary has wider applications I think than just being anti wasteland. It gives 3 colors without any drawbacks. I was more thinking of it as an anti-sphere for control decks as well, while it would also be interesting for some noble fish variants. In the end, it could be run by more than 1 archetype, control or/and aggro. And that was my aim, if everyone runs it, it can be used 3x in a deck, because it acts as removal too.

*Plus I like cards that are simple and clean. Not many text, or complex ruling.

lol

[psyburat]

When you hand the canonical UGw deck perfect mana and they say "No thank you", you might want to reevaluate your card.  That was the only information I wished to portray.

[Stormanimagus]

Yeah, I have to agree with mike here Guli. This card doesn't seem that great to me. Legendary status makes me almost never want to run 2+ (cause, as opposed to Thalia which can be game-breaking this is not) and I have no problems in a GUW deck getting access to those colors in basic land form. This seems like the wrong approach to me if land is picked. I've been going hardcore on the enchantment ideas cause I really REALLY want it to be picked, but if land were selected instead I would think the best card that fish/human mayor decks could ask for would be more along the lines of:

Torpid Generator

Land

: Add to your mana pool.

: Add 2 mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool. This mana may only be used to cast creature spells. You may not cast creature spells during your next turn.


Perhaps this isn't broken enough and 3 mana is warranted, but I just don't know if that would be too broken.

-Storm

EDIT: For slightly more power and keeping in the flavor of hibernation of your men perhaps I should amend the drawback to only prevent you from casting CREATURE spells during your next turn. Thoughts?

[John Cox]

Sacred Sanctuary

Legendary Land

Hexproof

: Add , or to your mana pool.

You could remove Hexproof and legendary, make it a non-basic forest, and it becomes another murmuring bosk.

[Smmenen]

I already suggested my land:

Urza's Workshop
Legendary Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool for each artifact target opponent controls.

Is there a better way to word that? I feel like Shop players would play Leyline of Sanctity or Witchbane Orb to counteract the proposed card and essentially all of Burning Tendrils (Oath, Hurkyl's, and Tendrils).

It has to target opponent because of multiplayer.  would otherwise be broken in EDH, etc. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

Yeah, I have to agree with mike here Guli. This card doesn't seem that great to me. Legendary status makes me almost never want to run 2+ (cause, as opposed to Thalia which can be game-breaking this is not) and I have no problems in a GUW deck getting access to those colors in basic land form. This seems like the wrong approach to me if land is picked. I've been going hardcore on the enchantment ideas cause I really REALLY want it to be picked, but if land were selected instead I would think the best card that fish/human mayor decks could ask for would be more along the lines of:

Torpid Generator

Land

: Add to your mana pool.

: Add 2 mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool. This mana may only be used to cast creature spells. You may not cast creature spells during your next turn.


Perhaps this isn't broken enough and 3 mana is warranted, but I just don't know if that would be too broken.

-Storm

EDIT: For slightly more power and keeping in the flavor of hibernation of your men perhaps I should amend the drawback to only prevent you from casting CREATURE spells during your next turn. Thoughts?

Geez.  Ya'll just love cards that ramp fish with moderate to nil gain for anything else.  I really don't want to see fish be THE deck in a format...but moreso I hate cards that are designed specifically to help just one deck type or existing decklist.  I want land because it is universal...but if we make the effect only benefit one corner of the format, then it might as well be a red enchantment or something instead.

[Stormanimagus]

Yeah, I have to agree with mike here Guli. This card doesn't seem that great to me. Legendary status makes me almost never want to run 2+ (cause, as opposed to Thalia which can be game-breaking this is not) and I have no problems in a GUW deck getting access to those colors in basic land form. This seems like the wrong approach to me if land is picked. I've been going hardcore on the enchantment ideas cause I really REALLY want it to be picked, but if land were selected instead I would think the best card that fish/human mayor decks could ask for would be more along the lines of:

Torpid Generator

Land

: Add to your mana pool.

: Add 2 mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool. This mana may only be used to cast creature spells. You may not cast creature spells during your next turn.


Perhaps this isn't broken enough and 3 mana is warranted, but I just don't know if that would be too broken.

-Storm

EDIT: For slightly more power and keeping in the flavor of hibernation of your men perhaps I should amend the drawback to only prevent you from casting CREATURE spells during your next turn. Thoughts?

Geez.  Ya'll just love cards that ramp fish with moderate to nil gain for anything else.  I really don't want to see fish be THE deck in a format...but moreso I hate cards that are designed specifically to help just one deck type or existing decklist.  I want land because it is universal...but if we make the effect only benefit one corner of the format, then it might as well be a red enchantment or something instead.

@TheWhiteDragon - Yeah I wanna see fish more competitive in Vintage. It is a fascinating potential foil to the heritage club that is blue/shops. I am so sick of players whining about a fish player wanting a new toy when the other 2 main pillars of Vintage have cards that win the game on the spot that cost 2U or 4 colorless.

This is an utterly silly debate to have.

Think of this way. Most decks sideboard 6-8 slots for Dredge, 3-5 for shops and about 0-2 for fish. That means most players still don't respect fish much cause they don't have to yet. That bothers me. I think evening the playing field would make players have to consider fish a LEGITIMATE part of the metagame and not just a blip on the map of every tournament they attend.

:end rant:

-Storm