[Free Podcast] So Many Insane Plays # 22: 'You Make the Card' For Vintage

[BC]

I'm sticking with my Leyline idea:

Leyline of the Portal 2BB

If Leyline of the Portal is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.

If a player would draw a card, that player skips that draw instead.

At the end of each turn, each player sacrifices a permanent unless he or she discards a card from his or her hand.

This would be the most broken Dredge card ever.  Possibly more broken than Bazaar of Baghdad.  It would define every format in which Dredge/Serum Powder are legal.

[msg67183]

... You caught me BC lol

All I'm hoping for is an enchantment that is either playable in Dredge, or one that nueters Shops enough that Dredge gets better.

Haha

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm sticking with my Leyline idea:

Leyline of the Portal 2BB

If Leyline of the Portal is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.

If a player would draw a card, that player skips that draw instead.

At the end of each turn, each player sacrifices a permanent unless he or she discards a card from his or her hand.

This would be the most broken Dredge card ever.  Possibly more broken than Bazaar of Baghdad.  It would define every format in which Dredge/Serum Powder are legal.

Would you still be able to dredge with this out, though...?  (processes) Ah, Rule 615 says you can.  Fix this card by changing the wording then:

"Leyline of the Portal Version 2.0 2BB

If Leyline of the Portal is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.

Players cannot draw cards.

At the end of each turn, each player sacrifices a permanent unless he or she discards a card from his or her hand."

Oh look, it's still horribly broken.

[LennoxLewis86]

Fixing the Broken



Enchantment

Players can't draw more than one card each turn.

Players can't activate abilities of artifacts with converted mana cost 2 or less.

[MaximumCDawg]

Fixing the Broken



Enchantment

Players can't draw more than one card each turn.

Players can't activate abilities of artifacts with converted mana cost 2 or less.

Oh snap I like that.  Let's do better though:

Fix Everything

Players can't draw more than one card each turn, can't search libraries, and can't reveal cards from libraries.

Players can't activate abilities of artifacts with converted mana cost 2 or less.

If a graveyard has more cards in it than a library controlled by the same player, that player loses the game.

Whenever any card seeks the current Storm count, it returns the result "0."

All artifact creatures are 1/1.

[Guli]

Lol, I like the humor of the post above.

I agree, some people are way too straight forward when designing hate cards. They think of card A (for example Time Vault) and directly shut it down. I believe that there is already enough and adequate direct hate cards out there. What truly could use a help is to give the 'hate' decks powerful enablers, and Dr Shaman, Cavern of Souls are both cards that were in the right direction I believe.

That being said, if you really want to print a hate bear, just print a human cc with null rod on it and get it over with. I would find that strong and would welcome it, but I would also find it dull.

I would however appreciate another land at the level of Cavern of Souls. I love lands and they don't really hurt the opponent in a direct way, but they do open up new possibilities.

[MaximumCDawg]

So I submitted my design concept already:

"During his or her turn, each player may cast non-land cards in opponents' graveyards as though they were in his or her hand.  If he or she does, exile that card instead of putting it into owner's graveyard this turn."

My thought process:  This is unique.  This is a very powerful effect, but not obviously broken.  It could be priced at a point that it could be Vintage playable.  it does not break standard.  Finally, it powers-up a stereotypically under-powered archetype, the non-combo mill deck.

Come all, and support me

EDIT: Two other awesome ideas were generated over at MTG Salvation:

"You control each opponent during his or her end step."
"Players may cast creatures from their graveyards."

Both of these would be baller.

[Stormanimagus]

So I went with my first idea as that usually is the best one:

My concept was "Haar Mists" which are a dense coastal fog that creeps onto the land. I was thinking that dark spells gather momentum on the whispers of a great storm. Naturally, my card design had something to do with the storm mechanic. Here it was:

"Spells you cast cost  less to cast where  is the storm count."


If costed correctly I think this card could be kept from totally breaking Modern and Legacy. Obviously  is one idea for a casting cost that would pretty much keep this card being playable in three archetypes in Vintage only:

Mono-Black Sui
Ritual Storm
Cobra-Gush Storm

I'm curious as to what you all think of this idea. Would it break Modern/Legacy at  cost? Would it even be a good card in any format at that cost?

-Storm

[MaximumCDawg]

Yikes.  If storm ever breaks out of Shop's strangehold, that card is broken at almost any cost, yo.

[Stormanimagus]

Yikes.  If storm ever breaks out of Shop's strangehold, that card is broken at almost any cost, yo.

Well if it costed BBB it would probably mean you have to wait until the following turn to win unless you have tons of color specific mana available after you cast it. The first spell you cast would still cost its normal amount. Spell number 2 would cost -1, spell number 3 -2 and so forth. I hardly think this is broken as it's sorta like Gush-Bond. Gush is broken without fastbond. Fastbond simply seals the deal. Dark Ritual is broken without this. This would simply seal the deal and give storm decks an option other than hurkyls for fighting shops. If you can get around Chalice @0 you now have a mox as an option to get the chain started and break out of a sphere lock. Against decks running disruption in the form of Force or whatever the mana you're saving isn't the important part. If they counter the right card you're still often just boned. And there is a point of diminishing returns. For example, ancestral recall wouldn't be reduced in cost at all and time walk can only be reduced by 1. The best thing this card would do is make a will cost B and a tinker cost U. There is where it would really shine, but again, this is only AFTER you get the storm engine rolling and only IF they don't counter important cards along the way.

-Storm

[MaximumCDawg]

Yeah, and I suppose that since we have several "instant win" enchantments in Blue now (Omniscience and Enter the Infinite), no matter what this card does, costing it at 10- 13 is enough.

[Stormanimagus]

Yeah, I'm not saying this COULDN'T be broken by someone, but just that it wouldn't be slapped into any deck and would have to be costed appropriately to preclude being slapped into any deck. I think that  is the most logical way to do this while keeping the card aggressively costed.

-Storm

[Smmenen]

In our next podcast, you'll hear our submission, which Kevin submitted.  But here's what I submitted:

 "Lesser Void"

Whenever a player casts a spell with a converted mana cost 1 or less, counter it unless they pay 2.

It's an eternal playable Nether Void variant targeting RUG Delver in Legacy and Restricted List heavy decks in Vintage. Makes Moxen cost 2, and Brainstorm 3, but does not affect Goyf or Bob.

[Stormanimagus]

In our next podcast, you'll hear our submission, which Kevin submitted.  But here's what I submitted:

 "Lesser Void"

Whenever a player casts a spell with a converted mana cost 1 or less, counter it unless they pay 2.

It's an eternal playable Nether Void variant targeting RUG Delver in Legacy and Restricted List heavy decks in Vintage. Makes Moxen cost 2, and Brainstorm 3, but does not affect Goyf or Bob.

Would it have the "Leyline" clause? If so then it would be pretty nutty. If not, I'm not sure its that playable.

-Storm

[Smmenen]

No, not a Leyline. It would cost 1B or BB.

[John Cox]

This was my idea

"Search your library for a card and exile it. Other players may not play copies of the exiled card."

[Smmenen]

Here's another card I designed, which I really liked:

Leyline of Dark Matter

You may exile a spell (you control) from the stack.  If you do so, add a Dark Matter counter to Leyline of Dark Matter.   Use this ability only if there is more than one spell on the stack.  0: Remove a Dark Matter counter from Leyline of Dark Matter: Target opponent discards a card. 

[brianpk80]

I submitted this:

Debilitating Hypnosis

If an opponent would choose between one or more permanents in play, cards in hand, cards in graveyard, cards in exile, or cards from outside the game for any purpose, instead you make that choice and that opponent loses 1 life.

Flavorwise, the ability is that the opponent loses agency to make decisions and each instance then takes a physical toll.  I didn't include cards in library because those typically relate to tutors who themselves would not be under the trance.  Mechanically, it might require some additional text like "that opponent reveals his/her hand" but I figured the nuts and bolts would be ironed out by the design team. 

The ability is intended to be broad enough to have applications in every format, including Vintage where it would determine what gets sacrificed to Smokestack, tapped for Tangle Wire, targeted by Dread Return, discarded to Bazaar, exiled by Force of Will, sacrificed to Liliana/Edict/Balance, acquired by Burning Wish, and have synergy with natural black abilities like forcing an opponent to chose cards to discard and using Smallpox effects.  The ability is far-reaching and could be overpowered, but a non-creature black permanent would have to be to have any consideration in the format and it doesn't specifically hose any "pillar" any more than the others.  Opponents could still target players, counter spells, draw cards, play spells, and attack with creatures. 

[DubDub]

As I had posted here before, I went with a Necro-variant:

All Consuming Power Hunger
Enchantment
Whenever you cast a spell, if you didn't cast it from your hand, you lose X life and draw X cards, where X is the converted mana cost of the spell.

I added the intervening if clause to limit the power level somewhat.  You have to cast spells from exile or graveyard or library to get the effect.  So it plays well with Flashback in particular.  It still remains that the effect isn't optional, so you could burn yourself down if your hunger is too great.

I'm sure mine will be lost in an avalanche of Necro-variants, but that's what I'm hoping emerges from this exercise.

[MaximumCDawg]

In our next podcast, you'll hear our submission, which Kevin submitted.  But here's what I submitted:

 "Lesser Void"

Whenever a player casts a spell with a converted mana cost 1 or less, counter it unless they pay 2.

It's an eternal playable Nether Void variant targeting RUG Delver in Legacy and Restricted List heavy decks in Vintage. Makes Moxen cost 2, and Brainstorm 3, but does not affect Goyf or Bob.

That's a fine submission and I wouldn't mind it winning.... but.... you, of all people, designing a card that makes shops STRONGER?

Over at the MTGSalvation thread, I've been very active, trying to influence who I can away from stupid creature-kill effects and into more interesting game-changing things.  So far, here's the list of good ideas from there:

(1) Some sort of black creature crucible / yawgwill against opponent's yard / etc.
(2) Casting cards your opponents discard.
(3) Controlling your opponent for part of each turn, like your own end step maybe.
(4) The reverse of Doubling Season; prevents or reduces tokens or counters.
(5) Your opponents lose some amount of life whenever a creature is sacrificed.

@Brianpk:  It isn't clear to me how your submission is intended to work.  Does it affect targeting abilities, or just those that actually instruct the opponent to "choose" a card?  If the latter, are you saying that you get to choose which card they discard from Duress?  If so, do you get to see their hand?  

Perhaps a better way to put it would be something like this: "If a spell or ability instructs an opponent to choose anything, you control that player until the choice is made instead."

As I had posted here before, I went with a Necro-variant:

Why?  Why does the world need Necro Variant No. 89? 

[DubDub]

As I had posted here before, I went with a Necro-variant:

Why?  Why does the world need Necro Variant No. 89? 

Because EDH.

[MaximumCDawg]

As I had posted here before, I went with a Necro-variant:

Why?  Why does the world need Necro Variant No. 89? 

Because EDH.

Lets design for Vintage, not EDH, please

[Smmenen]

In our next podcast, you'll hear our submission, which Kevin submitted.  But here's what I submitted:

 "Lesser Void"

Whenever a player casts a spell with a converted mana cost 1 or less, counter it unless they pay 2.

It's an eternal playable Nether Void variant targeting RUG Delver in Legacy and Restricted List heavy decks in Vintage. Makes Moxen cost 2, and Brainstorm 3, but does not affect Goyf or Bob.

That's a fine submission and I wouldn't mind it winning.... but.... you, of all people, designing a card that makes shops STRONGER?

I would cost at BB, to prevent it from being a Shop play. 

[brianpk80]

@Brianpk:  It isn't clear to me how your submission is intended to work.  Does it affect targeting abilities, or just those
that actually instruct the opponent to "choose" a card?  If the latter, are you saying that you get to choose which card they discard from Duress?  If so, do you get to see their hand?  

Yes, you choose which card would be discarded and would see their hand (as you already do w. Duress).  If they used Bazaar, you would choose which cards were discarded.  As written, you would choose the targets for any permanents targeted but not for players targeted. 

I didn't specify too much beyond the theme and general thrust of the card because I figured they would transfigure it anyway during the design process.   

[MaximumCDawg]

In our next podcast, you'll hear our submission, which Kevin submitted.  But here's what I submitted:

 "Lesser Void"

Whenever a player casts a spell with a converted mana cost 1 or less, counter it unless they pay 2.

It's an eternal playable Nether Void variant targeting RUG Delver in Legacy and Restricted List heavy decks in Vintage. Makes Moxen cost 2, and Brainstorm 3, but does not affect Goyf or Bob.

That's a fine submission and I wouldn't mind it winning.... but.... you, of all people, designing a card that makes shops STRONGER?

I would cost at BB, to prevent it from being a Shop play.  

Hm.  Is is really playable at BB, though?  Say you've got Dark Times or something.  What you really want is to stop your opponent from playing moxen or Ancestrall or whatever before you can start to hit them with duress effects.  At BB, you need a ritual to power it out first turn.  Seems like it loses alot of potency after the first few turns, just like Spell Pierce does.

@Brianpk:  It isn't clear to me how your submission is intended to work.  Does it affect targeting abilities, or just those
that actually instruct the opponent to "choose" a card?  If the latter, are you saying that you get to choose which card they discard from Duress?  If so, do you get to see their hand?  

Yes, you choose which card would be discarded and would see their hand (as you already do w. Duress). 

Okay, Raven's Crime, then. 

If they used Bazaar, you would choose which cards were discarded.  As written, you would choose the targets for any permanents targeted but not for players targeted.   

So you make all choices for the player involving anything that "targets" or "chooses" permanents?  That seems grossly overpowered at a casting cost that would be Vintage playable.  In Legacy, suiblack runs this and suddenly all targeted removal is worthless if the opponent has a board.  And if they have no board, they're losing anyway. 

Ironically, your design doesn't help much in Vintage.  The blue decks can continue to draw cards (Ancestral targets a player) and counter spells (targets something on the stack) and tutor for lock pieces (Tezz+Vault) with impunity.  Meanwhile, the Fish decks that rely on removal and answers get hosed.

[BC]

Here's what I submitted:

"Suicide Tutor Enchantment"

Pay half your life rounded up: Search your library for a card, then shuffle your library and put that card on top of it.

[brianpk80]

So you make all choices for the player involving anything that "targets" or "chooses" permanents?  That seems grossly overpowered at a casting cost that would be Vintage playable. 

Yup.  It has to be overpowered to have any chance of seeing any play.  It's a black enchantment. 

In Legacy, suiblack runs this and suddenly all targeted removal is worthless if the opponent has a board.  And if they have no board, they're losing anyway. 

It means you'd have to run Diabolic Edict and its kin upon whose resolution you would choose which creatures are sacrificed. 

Ironically, your design doesn't help much in Vintage. 

It's a black enchantment.  Its fate was sealed weeks ago.

The likelihood that anything produced will have any impact on the format is close to 0.00%. 

The blue decks can continue to draw cards (Ancestral targets a player) and counter spells (targets something on the stack) and tutor for lock pieces (Tezz+Vault) with impunity. 

Being unable to target a Time Vault with an untap effect does not qualify as impunity. 

Meanwhile, the Fish decks that rely on removal and answers get hosed.

Not really.  I understand that the text I submitted would lead to some situations requiring clarification like many cards out there (Clone, etc.).  The guidelines for submission made it clear they were looking for top-down flavor and I figured putting meticulous effort into fine-tuning the mechanics would be futile since they're going to change it anyway. 

[MaximumCDawg]

 

Ironically, your design doesn't help much in Vintage. 

It's a black enchantment.  Its fate was sealed weeks ago.

Oh ye of little faith!  All you need is for the enchantment be suitably unique (and low cost) and the possibility is there.  Would you play these in Vintage?:

2BB, Enchantment
"Players may cast creatures from graveyards."

1B, Enchantment
"When a player discards a card, exile it.  That player's opponents may cast cards exiled by ~."

These are both very strong psudeo-card advantage engines that might very well form the backbone of Vintage-worthy decks.

[Smmenen]

I disagree with that statement as well.   I think there are lots of ways to create playable black enchantments.

The idea that I came up with and Kevin templated, which he submitted is this:

Leyline of Mephistopheles

If Leyline of Mephistopheles is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.
If an effect would cause a player to draw a card, that player discards a card and draws a card instead.

[brianpk80]

Oh ye of little faith!  All you need is for the enchantment be suitably unique (and low cost) and the possibility is there.  Would you play these in Vintage?:

2BB, Enchantment
"Players may cast creatures from graveyards."

No, it's overcosted except in some sort of Kobold + sac infinite loop that would likely require a deck with a lot of bad cards and be dysfunctional.  For Fish, Oath of Ghouls effectively does the same thing for half the price.  

1B, Enchantment
"When a player discards a card, exile it.  That player's opponents may cast cards exiled by ~."

Maybe... I'm not feeling the excitement though unless it comes alongside a Cavern of Souls for enchantments.  

The idea that I came up with and Kevin templated, which he submitted is this:

Leyline of Mephistopheles

If Leyline of Mephistopheles is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.
If an effect would cause a player to draw a card, that player discards a card and draws a card instead.

I like this card but it seems to lock in an implied casting cost of before that phase of YMTC is reached.  It's not the flavorful top-down design the YMTC submission form requests and printing it either requires another cycle of Leylines (which would be great) or printing a black Leyline outside of a cycle which I'm not sure Wizards would do.  It would be a super card for Vintage, but I don't know how it would distinguish itself as an attractive choice for the majority of voters who play Standard & Modern. 

They just spoiled a Human yesterday with Flash that has Plagiarize on it for .  So at least someone there has their head pointed in the right direction.