Ral Zarek

[vaughnbros]

Why not think a little outside the box. Ral Zarek keeps Stasis alive while continually locking down whatever lands, etc your opponents are able to play.

Wow that's a great combo and it transitions perfectly into letting stasis die and ultimating him. 

[MaximumCDawg]

Why not think a little outside the box. Ral Zarek keeps Stasis alive while continually locking down whatever lands, etc your opponents are able to play.

Wow that's a great combo and it transitions perfectly into letting stasis die and ultimating him. 

I thought this card was "Meh," below Jace, both Tezz's, 3-cc Lily, and Elspeth... then someone had to mention statis.  I love me some stasis and I'm sure I'll make some decks using that combo.

Thing is, the combo stinks.  Stasis decks need to roll out the lockdown fast, and this duder costs 4 mana.  If you can dump a 4 mana dork onto the board, Shops/Dredge/Storm has already won or lost, and Blue/Fish has answers or mana ready.  I don't want to wait until turn 4 or 5 to hit the stasis button.

That said, I'd love to see a Landstill variation with this guy.  He works under a Standstill pretty good too.  Maybe splash a Stasis with Enlightened Tutor for lols?   

Yea, I'm pretty sure I'll be doing that.

[Smmenen]

I think it's Vintage playable, and will appear in Vintage Top 8s.

[Samoht]

Calling this guy 4 mana bolt is like calling Lilliana 3 mana edict or Jace 4 mana brainstorm.  You're looking at the card completely wrong if you do this.

In my mind he passes the two questions of playability for planeswalkers.
1. Can he protect himself from creatures?
Yes, he can bolt them.

2.  Can he do something relevant every turn?
Yes, at the very least you get to twiddle something.

If you don't think liliana and Tezz 2 are playable you probably won't think this guy is either.

@ Tom.  
Against workshops no 4 drop is particularly great.  However, he will impact a game against them if you can stick him.  Untap a mana source or destroy target lodestone/revoker seems solid to me.

Against blue this guy helps tremendously in winning the Jace war.  I can only play 4 Jaces, some say 3 optimally, so I need more weapons than just Jace to win that battle.  If can stick this it kills an unbuffed jace immediately and I highly doubt many players will want to toss a Jace out into this guy unless they have no other play to make.

Against fish.  How is comparable to pyroclasm?  That card is only relevant against fish and does literally nothing against every other match up.

As far as an existing shell, UBr tv decks and possibly UR landstill could benefit from him.

Lilly and Jace have relevant effects outside of those mentioned. He really doesn't. The twiddle me and you thing is terrible.

1) What protection does he really offer? He misses the vital creatures that you need to stop, and is inefficient at dealing with the ones that he can deal with.

2) That is not always relevant. Twiddling isn't that big of a deal when they get theirs back on their turn, and especially if you don't use your side either. Just because it will always +1 doesn't mean it's good. If you're not playing spells or interacting in combat its pointless other than to charge up the PW.

Lilliana can be built around. She has become significantly better in the current meta as Creatures become more dominant and Deathrite Shaman has really helped there too. Tezz 2 is borderline as a 1 of and only because you want to stop at 3 Jace. I like him loads more than this guy and I'm even skeptical on him. Built in card advantage and a win condition maker. He is doing so much more.

@ Lance: Sure, he can have a slight/marginal impact on the game. So will Circle of Protection: Artifacts. Does that impact have meaning is the bigger question, and does it make the card worthy of inclusion? Can you not think of better cards to resolve against shops that would have a larger impact? Can you not think of cards that would have larger impacts in other matches while still being effective? This card is just not going to get it done in either case.

Fatesealing with Jace is so undervalued it's not even funny. When people learn that if Jace resolves against a player with Red mana available you have to +2 him, people will stop making claims about Bolts killing Jace. If I play Jace to 5, then you bolt to 2, and I go back to 4, I just survived that play. Moreover, there are better ways to ensure you win the Jace war. I'd say Jace Beleren is better than this guy for that. I will instantly concede that JB is worse everywhere else, but that's another matter. As much as I hate the card, Spell Pierce is another one that is better at winning the war. Duress is another strong winner, with Thoughtseize right behind.

Pyroclasm is quite fine against Dredge if they aren't on the Zealot package and does significant work against Empty the Warrens. It's also more effective than people realize against Bomberman, especially the UBw version.

Landstill simply has better cards, though I could see it as a potential one of in a TV deck from someone who wants to be cute. I don't think it would be the ideal card, but there are significantly worse ones that they could choose.

[Protoaddict]

Not every card needs to be good against every deck, needs to be of Jace power level, or needs to demand you playing multiple copies to be a good and staple card in the vintage format.

This guy will probably never be more than a 2 of in any deck, and usually I think just a 1 of. Decks that don't support red will probably not splash for him. However in the lists that use him he will be a key player, a card that can do many versatile things including winning the game.

Any deck that uses him will want him for multiple reasons, all of which will be in the deck. They will want him to combo with timevault. They will probably also use mana artifacts like sol ring to take advantage of his twiddle. They will want the bolts to deal with creatures. They will also want the bolts to win the game with the walker and nothing more (Tezz and Volt Key all need at least one other card to win, this combo does not). They will want a blue card that they can pitch to force. They will be able to use the ultimate if it comes up (everyone can use this ultimate though).

No one is saying Flame Kin Zealot is unplayable in vintage, it sees play in literally one deck as a one of, but I could easily argue it is a major card to the format that basically defines a deck archetype that is one of the pillars of the format.

[Samoht]

Not every card needs to be good against every deck, needs to be of Jace power level, or needs to demand you playing multiple copies to be a good and staple card in the vintage format.

This guy will probably never be more than a 2 of in any deck, and usually I think just a 1 of. Decks that don't support red will probably not splash for him. However in the lists that use him he will be a key player, a card that can do many versatile things including winning the game.

Any deck that uses him will want him for multiple reasons, all of which will be in the deck. They will want him to combo with timevault. They will probably also use mana artifacts like sol ring to take advantage of his twiddle. They will want the bolts to deal with creatures. They will also want the bolts to win the game with the walker and nothing more (Tezz and Volt Key all need at least one other card to win, this combo does not). They will want a blue card that they can pitch to force. They will be able to use the ultimate if it comes up (everyone can use this ultimate though).

No one is saying Flame Kin Zealot is unplayable in vintage, it sees play in literally one deck as a one of, but I could easily argue it is a major card to the format that basically defines a deck archetype that is one of the pillars of the format.

FKZ ends games when it enters. This card doesn't. That difference is drastic.

[boggyb]

Odd that he's so obviously designed with tempo-based strategies in mind but costs so much. I would've thought they'd have pushed him to   at 3 loyalty, potentially with a weaker second ability. At that price he's very good; here, he's fair to middlin'. Worse than Liliana, slightly worse than Tezz 2, a card that can only work as a 1-of role player in a deck, as Protoaddict said, that can take full advantage of all of his abilities.

I do like the fact that he deals 6 un-missteppable/-flusterable damage to the face right out of the box. Good for finishing the game for RUG, but again, his cost seems prohibitive.

edit: How sweet would he have been if the second ability were psionic blast? Danggg.

[Oath of Happy]

This card is really really strong...in draft

[vaughnbros]

Lilly and Jace have relevant effects outside of those mentioned. He really doesn't. The twiddle me and you thing is terrible.

So does this guy called winning the game with combos.  I just thought those were generally good criteria for evaluating a PWers power comparative to others.

1) What protection does he really offer? He misses the vital creatures that you need to stop, and is inefficient at dealing with the ones that he can deal with.

I'm confused as to what vital creatures don't die to bolt.  Auriok Salvagers, Forgemaster, Goyf and oath/tinker targets are pretty much the only ones he can't kill.  Trygon Predator, Bob, Meddling mage, Revoker, Lodestone, and many more all die to 3 damage.

2) That is not always relevant. Twiddling isn't that big of a deal when they get theirs back on their turn, and especially if you don't use your side either. Just because it will always +1 doesn't mean it's good. If you're not playing spells or interacting in combat its pointless other than to charge up the PW.

This is no different than mirrored discard when both players have empty hands or fatesealing into fetch lands.  There are going to be scenarios you can devise like this for all the planeswalkers + abilities.  These abilities are supposed to be 1 mana effects at best of course they have weaknesses.

Lilliana can be built around. She has become significantly better in the current meta as Creatures become more dominant and Deathrite Shaman has really helped there too. Tezz 2 is borderline as a 1 of and only because you want to stop at 3 Jace. I like him loads more than this guy and I'm even skeptical on him. Built in card advantage and a win condition maker. He is doing so much more.

I also like Tezz 2 and Lilliana, which is why I feel this guy will also find a similar niche deck to be played in.  For the record I think in decks with high artifact counts, 15+, Tezz 2 is on Jace's power level and should be a 3 or 4-of.

@ Lance: Sure, he can have a slight/marginal impact on the game. So will Circle of Protection: Artifacts. Does that impact have meaning is the bigger question, and does it make the card worthy of inclusion? Can you not think of better cards to resolve against shops that would have a larger impact? Can you not think of cards that would have larger impacts in other matches while still being effective? This card is just not going to get it done in either case.

Fatesealing with Jace is so undervalued it's not even funny. When people learn that if Jace resolves against a player with Red mana available you have to +2 him, people will stop making claims about Bolts killing Jace. If I play Jace to 5, then you bolt to 2, and I go back to 4, I just survived that play. Moreover, there are better ways to ensure you win the Jace war. I'd say Jace Beleren is better than this guy for that. I will instantly concede that JB is worse everywhere else, but that's another matter. As much as I hate the card, Spell Pierce is another one that is better at winning the war. Duress is another strong winner, with Thoughtseize right behind.

Pyroclasm is quite fine against Dredge if they aren't on the Zealot package and does significant work against Empty the Warrens. It's also more effective than people realize against Bomberman, especially the UBw version.

Of course there are narrow cards that are better at answering one individual decks threats.  I'd like to be able to play everyone of those cards in the match ups that their relevant, but I don't have a 1000 card sideboard.  These cards can't win a game though and are terrible outside their respective match ups.  So they are not really comparable to a utility card that has the ability to be a win con.

[Samoht]

Lilly and Jace have relevant effects outside of those mentioned. He really doesn't. The twiddle me and you thing is terrible.

So does this guy called winning the game with combos.  I just thought those were generally good criteria for evaluating a PWers power comparative to others.

1) What protection does he really offer? He misses the vital creatures that you need to stop, and is inefficient at dealing with the ones that he can deal with.

I'm confused as to what vital creatures don't die to bolt.  Auriok Salvagers, Forgemaster, Goyf and oath/tinker targets are pretty much the only ones he can't kill.  Trygon Predator, Bob, Meddling mage, Revoker, Lodestone, and many more all die to 3 damage.

2) That is not always relevant. Twiddling isn't that big of a deal when they get theirs back on their turn, and especially if you don't use your side either. Just because it will always +1 doesn't mean it's good. If you're not playing spells or interacting in combat its pointless other than to charge up the PW.

This is no different than mirrored discard when both players have empty hands or fatesealing into fetch lands.  There are going to be scenarios you can devise like this for all the planeswalkers + abilities.  These abilities are supposed to be 1 mana effects at best of course they have weaknesses.

Lilliana can be built around. She has become significantly better in the current meta as Creatures become more dominant and Deathrite Shaman has really helped there too. Tezz 2 is borderline as a 1 of and only because you want to stop at 3 Jace. I like him loads more than this guy and I'm even skeptical on him. Built in card advantage and a win condition maker. He is doing so much more.

I also like Tezz 2 and Lilliana, which is why I feel this guy will also find a similar niche deck to be played in.  For the record I think in decks with high artifact counts, 15+, Tezz 2 is on Jace's power level and should be a 3 or 4-of.

@ Lance: Sure, he can have a slight/marginal impact on the game. So will Circle of Protection: Artifacts. Does that impact have meaning is the bigger question, and does it make the card worthy of inclusion? Can you not think of better cards to resolve against shops that would have a larger impact? Can you not think of cards that would have larger impacts in other matches while still being effective? This card is just not going to get it done in either case.

Fatesealing with Jace is so undervalued it's not even funny. When people learn that if Jace resolves against a player with Red mana available you have to +2 him, people will stop making claims about Bolts killing Jace. If I play Jace to 5, then you bolt to 2, and I go back to 4, I just survived that play. Moreover, there are better ways to ensure you win the Jace war. I'd say Jace Beleren is better than this guy for that. I will instantly concede that JB is worse everywhere else, but that's another matter. As much as I hate the card, Spell Pierce is another one that is better at winning the war. Duress is another strong winner, with Thoughtseize right behind.

Pyroclasm is quite fine against Dredge if they aren't on the Zealot package and does significant work against Empty the Warrens. It's also more effective than people realize against Bomberman, especially the UBw version.

Of course there are narrow cards that are better at answering one individual decks threats.  I'd like to be able to play everyone of those cards in the match ups that their relevant, but I don't have a 1000 card sideboard.  These cards can't win a game though and are terrible outside their respective match ups.  So they are not really comparable to a utility card that has the ability to be a win con.

If Key was restricted or hard to find I would agree with you. But seeing as Key is easier to play/resolve, I can't get behind this guys as a TV activator. Tezz can tutor for TV (or the pro move of get Key first, then get Vault on the 2nd turn) and thus wins by hiimself *albeit with passing the turn. This guy doesn't do that.

The ones you named are the vital ones you need to stop. That's my point. Bob is perhaps the only other one that he does answer. If this guy is killing Lodestong Golem someone did something wrong.

As far as Lilliana goes, if you can get both players to having empty hands and continue to play, you are furthering the board control by enabling more -2's and setting up the ultimate while keeping their hand empty. If you twidlle twice, you twiddle twice. The comparison is very different.

I totally disagree about Tezz 2 as comparable to Jace. He has no way to interact with the opponent, Jace has 2. There are more reasons but I think we are so far apart exploring them is moot.

My point was that this guy is narrow and inefficient compared to the cards I mentioned at the end (Spell Pierce, Duress, Thoughtseize) and can be supplanted by other R, U or R/U cards with greater utility and application. I'd rather play Izzet Charm and concede hits from LSG/Trygon to reduce the CMC to 2 and become an Instant. If that card is having a hard time making it, I don't see this guy doing anything.

[MaximumCDawg]

I think it's Vintage playable, and will appear in Vintage Top 8s.

Very bold.  How many, though?  You could put a singleton into a top eight by yourself if you wanted to.

[vaughnbros]

If Key was restricted or hard to find I would agree with you. But seeing as Key is easier to play/resolve, I can't get behind this guys as a TV activator. Tezz can tutor for TV (or the pro move of get Key first, then get Vault on the 2nd turn) and thus wins by hiimself *albeit with passing the turn. This guy doesn't do that.

Tezz and key can really only do 2 things add mana and untap vault.  This is where I think his added utility makes him worth playing.  While I don't ever want 2 voltaic keys in my hand I'm perfectly fine with having 1 key and 1 of these guys in my hand.  Hes also pretty much unaffected by stoney silence, which the other two can't do.

The ones you named are the vital ones you need to stop. That's my point. Bob is perhaps the only other one that he does answer. If this guy is killing Lodestong Golem someone did something wrong.

I disagree on those being my only concern for creatures.  There aren't really very many creatures in vintage I'm happy to leave on the board and in any deck i see this guy getting played I think trygon is my most vital kill.  

As far as Lilliana goes, if you can get both players to having empty hands and continue to play, you are furthering the board control by enabling more -2's and setting up the ultimate while keeping their hand empty. If you twidlle twice, you twiddle twice. The comparison is very different.

If both players discard 0 cards twice how exactly is it different from twiddling nothing relevant twice?  Both are setting up their -2's.  Ral rolling can guard from planeswalkers.  Lilly rolling can protect from larger creatures.  That's really the only big difference.  As far as lillys ult it seems pretty useless to me every time I've been able to use it in competitive play it would blow up nothing good.

I totally disagree about Tezz 2 as comparable to Jace. He has no way to interact with the opponent, Jace has 2. There are more reasons but I think we are so far apart exploring them is moot.

When I'm playing Tezz 2 I'm using his -1 as often as possible and smashing with 5/5 hasties.  If that's not interacting I don't know what is.  Of course without a high artifact count its impossible to do this.  His +1 should be used scarcely as it can dig away your strongest cards.  

My point was that this guy is narrow and inefficient compared to the cards I mentioned at the end (Spell Pierce, Duress, Thoughtseize) and can be supplanted by other R, U or R/U cards with greater utility and application. I'd rather play Izzet Charm and concede hits from LSG/Trygon to reduce the CMC to 2 and become an Instant. If that card is having a hard time making it, I don't see this guy doing anything.

Inefficient compared to them to a degree.  They only have 1 activation.  Narrow compared to them absolutely not.  Lightning bolt alone is more versatile than those cards.  Izzet charm is 2 cmc, but still the same amount of colored mana, by casting Ral off a drain or with off colored moxen they become nearly the same CC.

[brianpk80]

I think it's the second best planeswalker behind Jace, maybe tied with Tezz 2.  The right design should be getting this into play regularly on Turn 2, via Mana Vault, Sol Ring, Lotus, Double Mox, Mox & Petal, or Mana Crypt.  It also looks pretty ferocious in U/r Landstill given the +1 ability can both pump a Mishra's Factory or untap it after combat and tap a blocker or force an opponent to crack a fetchland on your terms threatening a follow up Waste.  It goes a long way in helping that deck's abysmal match-up against aggro.  I would never want to see this guy on the other side of the table.  It's no more a Lightning Bolt than Dark Confidant is a 1B "reveal a card on your next upkeep and lose life equal to its CMC" instant.  You get that effect but then you still have a permanent in play giving encores every turn. 

It would have been playable at 3 loyalty and over time it'll become apparent how annoying and hard to get rid of it is at 4. 

Someone mentioned earlier that the ultimate was Turn 7 "at the earliest."  While the ultimate isn't the main draw, technically, the "earliest" it could activate is Turn 4.  Chances are that will happen once in a while.  It starts threatening ultimate a turn after it comes into play if you use the +1 twice; ie, it has 6 counters and the opponent is on notice that they need to deal with this in two turns or lose. 

I agree with the nod to Tezz 2's power level in the right shell.  It's not a draw engine; it's a very fast finisher.  It hasn't been exploited to its full potential yet, but it's busted. 

I'm liking the set so far.  After the first night of spoilers there was a good Planeswalker, a useful new Fish, a solid utility instant, Ruric Thar, and a peculiar draw spell.  The rest of the set could be all Relentless Rats and it would still outclass Gatecrash.   

[shrewarmies]

I could see this getting some play but not universal acceptance.

You definitely need more than just time vault as a "untap target" to make his +1 useful. A deck featuring Tom Ral Zarek would probably be running some number of Grim Monoliths or other like-styled cards. A deck built similarly to Tezzeret's Picnic may be a home for this card.

It could also possibly replace Chandra, the Firebrand in some sort of Planeswalker Control List

[coldcrow]

What brianpk80 said:
This is really good in a dedicated control deck, like landstill. I think you underestimate the +1 ability greatly - it generates mana and limits the opponent. U/r/x just got a wonderful tool/finisher besides Jace.

[evouga]

The problem with this guy is that I have a hard time imagining a situation where I wouldn't just want Jace instead. The +1 ability certainly has synergies in the right deck, but to be honest I'd rather just bury my opponent in card advantage or fateseal him to death than fiddle around with his blockers and fetchlands.

[Stormanimagus]

The problem with this guy is that I have a hard time imagining a situation where I wouldn't just want Jace instead. The +1 ability certainly has synergies in the right deck, but to be honest I'd rather just bury my opponent in card advantage or fateseal him to death than fiddle around with his blockers and fetchlands.

The problem is, Jace doesn't do this against every deck. Against aggro decks that have Cavern of Souls the aggro deck is usually the one doing the burying. . . of JACE. Jace on anything except turn 1 tends to be pretty much a non-issue for Mayor Fish. This card would give mayor fish a headache potentially.

-Storm

[Protoaddict]

The problem with this guy is that I have a hard time imagining a situation where I wouldn't just want Jace instead.

Mirrors where you are down and they have a Jace in play. If you draw a Jace all you do is stall them out, but they are still in an advantaged position. If you draw ral you have options including zapping their Jace if he is fresh or potentially winning with vault on the spot.

[Onslaught]

My gut reaction is to want to try this card in a shell similar to those recent UB Agent of Bolas decks running around with Back to Basics. I like this guy a lot with B2B or Blood Moon since he is pretty grindy. Combined with him accelerating via untapping Grim Monolith, you have a lot of versatility for something that is also a win condition with Time Vault.

[davidasmatthews]

My gut reaction is to want to try this card in a shell similar to those recent UB Agent of Bolas decks running around with Back to Basics. I like this guy a lot with B2B or Blood Moon since he is pretty grindy. Combined with him accelerating via untapping Grim Monolith, you have a lot of versatility for something that is also a win condition with Time Vault.

I was thinking b2b as well, but I don't think its enough of advantage to warrant the inclusion. Stasis shuts down the artifact mana and Ral + Stasis shuts down the incoming lands so they can't build up their mana pool. Maybe even do a URg build with rootmaze.

[vaughnbros]

My gut reaction is to want to try this card in a shell similar to those recent UB Agent of Bolas decks running around with Back to Basics. I like this guy a lot with B2B or Blood Moon since he is pretty grindy. Combined with him accelerating via untapping Grim Monolith, you have a lot of versatility for something that is also a win condition with Time Vault.

I was thinking b2b as well, but I don't think its enough of advantage to warrant the inclusion. Stasis shuts down the artifact mana and Ral + Stasis shuts down the incoming lands so they can't build up their mana pool. Maybe even do a URg build with rootmaze.

If you're going green and stasis I would think Garruk is an option to combo with as well.  I think if you load tons of control around stasis, maze, and the 2 walkers it could definitely work.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

What brianpk80 said:
This is really good in a dedicated control deck, like landstill. I think you underestimate the +1 ability greatly - it generates mana and limits the opponent. U/r/x just got a wonderful tool/finisher besides Jace.

I like the card, but I'd say "it generates mana OR limits the opponent." Most of the time you'll be tapping mana on the opponents end. In which case they will float it. If you we're going to make mana with whe untap, the floating mana will be lost what you move to combat to actually functional deprive them of the land you tapped.

This thing is hilarious for the "I noticed you left exactly up for fluster storm" scenario.

You're spot on about the wasteland fetch factory shenanigans. I'll add that as my third potential shell to try this guy in.

[davidasmatthews]

My gut reaction is to want to try this card in a shell similar to those recent UB Agent of Bolas decks running around with Back to Basics. I like this guy a lot with B2B or Blood Moon since he is pretty grindy. Combined with him accelerating via untapping Grim Monolith, you have a lot of versatility for something that is also a win condition with Time Vault.

I was thinking b2b as well, but I don't think its enough of advantage to warrant the inclusion. Stasis shuts down the artifact mana and Ral + Stasis shuts down the incoming lands so they can't build up their mana pool. Maybe even do a URg build with rootmaze.

If you're going green and stasis I would think Garruk is an option to combo with as well.  I think if you load tons of control around stasis, maze, and the 2 walkers it could definitely work.

I think the GG in Garruk maybe prohibitive in a tricolor deck. Maybe as a 1 of, but i dont think you need more than Ral x4 for the purposes of untapping lands since you'll do a full untap when you use Ral's ultimate, does some damage & recast stasis/ win.

[Elric]

When I'm playing Tezz 2 I'm using his -1 as often as possible and smashing with 5/5 hasties.  If that's not interacting I don't know what is.  Of course without a high artifact count its impossible to do this.  His +1 should be used scarcely as it can dig away your strongest cards.  

This is not a drawback of Tezz 2's +1 ability. In general, you're just as likely to move your weaker (non-artifact) cards to the bottom of your library as your stronger cards. Your stronger cards aren't any more likely to be in the top 5 cards than at any other place in your library, so this ability has no effect on the "strength" of your library's top 5 cards, for example (assuming you had 10 or more cards left to start with!).

[vaughnbros]

When I'm playing Tezz 2 I'm using his -1 as often as possible and smashing with 5/5 hasties.  If that's not interacting I don't know what is.  Of course without a high artifact count its impossible to do this.  His +1 should be used scarcely as it can dig away your strongest cards.

This is not a drawback of Tezz 2's +1 ability. In general, you're just as likely to move your weaker (non-artifact) cards to the bottom of your library as your stronger cards. Your stronger cards aren't any more likely to be in the top 5 cards than at any other place in your library, so this ability has no effect on the "strength" of your library's top 5 cards, for example (assuming you had 10 or more cards left to start with!).

By using sensei's top, jace, brainstorm, preordain, ponder, and any other deck manipulators that statement is not necessarily true.  Drawing a card is no longer a random event after playing such cards and so the primary assumption that basic probability uses fails.

[evouga]

But if you're using those cards, your *weakest* cards are probably trapped at the top of your library, all the more reason to use the +1.

[nedleeds]

When I'm playing Tezz 2 I'm using his -1 as often as possible and smashing with 5/5 hasties.  If that's not interacting I don't know what is.  Of course without a high artifact count its impossible to do this.  His +1 should be used scarcely as it can dig away your strongest cards.  

Somebody needs a lesson in probability, distributions, hypergeometric etc.. This reminds me of arguments in the mid 90's about how Millstone was "milling" your strongest cards and therefore was even better than damage.

[vaughnbros]

When I'm playing Tezz 2 I'm using his -1 as often as possible and smashing with 5/5 hasties.  If that's not interacting I don't know what is.  Of course without a high artifact count its impossible to do this.  His +1 should be used scarcely as it can dig away your strongest cards.  

Somebody needs a lesson in probability, distributions, hypergeometric etc.. This reminds me of arguments in the mid 90's about how Millstone was "milling" your strongest cards and therefore was even better than damage.

I know those probability distributions very well, which is why I know that they don't apply to non random situations.  There may be a more complicated distribution that I do not know of out there that can account for it, but hypergeometric is not it.

Now where we can use the laws of probability is in evaluating the chances of drawing cards during the entire course of a game.  Over the course of a game if we keep using ponders, preordains, brainstorms, and continually shuffle away/bottom the cards that we don't want to see, the odds of seeing the card we want to will increase over the course of the game.  If this weren't the case filters would not be nearly as powerful as they are.  By activating an ability that bottoms all non artifact cards you are breaking the value generated by all those cards over time.

[Elric]

By using sensei's top, jace, brainstorm, preordain, ponder, and any other deck manipulators that statement is not necessarily true.  Drawing a card is no longer a random event after playing such cards and so the primary assumption that basic probability uses fails.

But if you're using those cards, your *weakest* cards are probably trapped at the top of your library, all the more reason to use the +1.

[on Tezz 2]

Exactly. Of the cards listed, only using Ponder to bottom cards (or Fatesealing yourself with Jace) makes the *stronger* non-artifact cards more likely to be at the top of your library. The others all make the *weaker* cards more likely to be at the top of your library and provide more reason to use the +1.

[vaughnbros]

By using sensei's top, jace, brainstorm, preordain, ponder, and any other deck manipulators that statement is not necessarily true.  Drawing a card is no longer a random event after playing such cards and so the primary assumption that basic probability uses fails.

But if you're using those cards, your *weakest* cards are probably trapped at the top of your library, all the more reason to use the +1.

[on Tezz 2]

Exactly. Of the cards listed, only using Ponder to bottom cards (or Fatesealing yourself with Jace) makes the *stronger* non-artifact cards more likely to be at the top of your library. The others all make the *weaker* cards more likely to be at the top of your library and provide more reason to use the +1.

You're all looking at the short term effect of the cards, not the long term effect that I'm referring to.  Certainly if I've just used top or a brainstorm I know whats on the top of my deck and whether or not I want to bottom them or not, but if you are going into it blind its a completely different.  The long term cumulative effect of continuing to shuffle away the bad cards is that the good ones are going to eventually appear on the top.  I lose the opportunity to grab those good cards if they are in that group of 5 I pick up with Tezz.